our chips

so maybe im missing something, giac sells a chip for MK1 996 that gives 23HP for $800. and a chip for MK2 that gives 8-12HP for $1000. whats next; 997 chip that gives 6HP for $1200? i do see a trend here--- my bad, 997 gets 10 unnoticeable HP for $1000

Can these chips' gains even be "real" and INDEPENDENTLY dyno proven? I have been too much of a victim of paying exorbitant prices for what amounts to "mental gains"....

I dont think you will benefit anything from spending money on those things (just my opinion)

Well, do you really care about peak or about area under the curve? That's the mistake a lot of people make.

I think with the proper mods to go with the chip, exhaust, headers.. cats... etc, You will see an improvement.

Programming like this is a heavily discussed topic. It's not a 'chip' that is piggy backed into your car's ECU, it's actually a series of different Maps loaded onto your exisiting software, much like updating your home computer from windows XP to Windows Vista (ok... bad comparison, lol). It's all done through your car's OBD-II port - or alternatively if you're not on location you pull the ECU and ship it to your tuner of choice for them to load the software. The new programming allows for different power/tq characteristics which give you a more usable power band. Marc is spot on when he mentions the additional modifications because with an Exhaust to get more air out, and an intake to get more air in - Your motor can now make much more efficient use of that added air with a proper tune. This isn't like a "Power Chip" you'd add to a Ford Truck or Honda Civic - these programs are much more in-depth and the R&D time that goes into their development is what you're paying for. When it comes to the water-cooled 911's their effectiveness really isn't up for debate any longer. Programming has proven itself a very valuable modification both on and off the track. It's really one of those don't knock it till' you've tried it sort of things. That being said, the N/A programming doesn't have the same effect as the Turbo programs because you can't simply turn up the boost. But if you take note of where your N/A motor is making it's power before and after the Flash, you will certainly notice a marked improvement. The only real debate is which tuner's software is the best at the moment. And to that, I prefer Todd's EVOMSit tuning from Evolution Motorsports currently.

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Does Evolution Motorsports use GIAC software? I'm contemplating getting a flash, but only in the hope that it will fix the driveability problems with the factory maps.

No they do not. They carry the EVOMSit line of tuning software now.

Is there any valid basis for comparison other than testimonials?

It's really like any other modification. Some guys will post Dyno charts, but of course we all know how easily those are manipulated, others will post lap times, 0-60 times, etc... My only basis for comparison is personal experience. I've driven cars with just about every kind of tuning I know of installed, and I've also flashed a number of cars myself and of those I've landed on the Evo software. I look at accomplishing 3 main goals with software, Improving driveability, maintaining reliability and increasing horsepower/tq. Without getting into specifics I'll tell you I've had a number of problems in the past with C.E.L.'s, Losing low end torque, dips in the power curve, etc... So far the Evo stuff has been completely as advertised and trouble free. Again, this stuff boils down to personal preference as I know a number of guys swear by other software out there so my only advice would be to do a little research from guys that know and choose with some knowledge in your back pocket.

i had a flash in my 1.8T audi and we are talking about 25hp and 25tq. THIS is noticable on a test drive. i dont care if it is "under the curve" or not. my point is would you spend $1000 for some invisible hp, because you will not feel this small amount (7-12HP). I will race anyone on the street, or on the track aginst my non flashed 996, and every lap will be a toss up. i guarentee it! ps, im not saying dont buy a chip, someone has to keep them in business. maybe ifyou buy two flashes you can get twice the power? ha ha

well after researching evoms i do have to be optimistic, they are claiming 23FT LBS of TQ with a intake & exhaust for $900 (323hp 281 tq)

I knew a guy that flashed his 996 with 3 vendors product. He was up almost 50-60 HP when we added them all together. LOL

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That's fair enough, everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's easy to sit around and make cheap shots like "If I buy two do I get twice the power?" However as an unaffiliated mechanic (I don't offer tuning at the moment and have nothing to gain by sticking up for software flashes in general) I can tell you that not only is there a market for them, but they also do work. If you are looking to be thrown back in your seat after a re-flash then no, this is not the modification for you - But if you track your 996/997 and are looking to fine tune the car's driving characteristics then tuning allows you to do so. It also has a number of other useful applications, including for those guys who want a nice, meaty power curve right where they spend most of their time driving. I'd offer the same counter point for interested parties to read if we were discussing any other modification that I have first-hand, personal experience with and know for a fact that it works. You've made it quite clear you don't feel it's worth the money tuners ask for it and you're perfectly entitled to that conclusion - However some guys are looking for quality software and tuning in general so I'm offering my opinion as well.

I'll let you guys in on a secret about chip tuning and pricing. You can chip a 24v VR6 Volkswagen for $300 and get 10-12 HP, or chip a 996 Porsche for $1,000 and get 10-12 HP. The man hours are the same, but the price is different. This is because chip tuners charge the equivalent of 1 months car payment for a chip. If someone pays $80,000 for a Porsche, they can afford $1,000 for a chip. And actually, they aren't called "chips" anymore since you aren't actually soldering on a new eprom, but rather "ECU Upgrade". Now you know. For what it's worth, I have a GIAC 93 octane ECU upgrade in my 04 C2, and it is great. The main reason to do this is for a drastic increase in throttle response, and sure, a little more power. - Anthony

By the time you do all the necessary mods on the intake, exhaust, and chip you are out a great deal of money with barely a noticeable difference in performance. The money is better spent on brakes, suspension and DE's.

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what do you drive and what is done to yours?

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in your opinion it is "drastic" increase in throttle response and im sure it feels that way but; the tuning company easily does this by changing the "rate of acceleration" mapping for the foot pedal sensor, by fooling the ecu into thinking more throttle has been applied than actually is. no real engine parameters changed. actually its called a flash, there is data on the chip that is changeable instead of read only. i was calling it "chipped" as slang (996) now you know i guess i let on as i was a noob in this area. sorry>

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Yes, it's a flash as it is over-writing the data on the factory ECU, but they are marketed as ECU Upgrades and not chips anymore. No worries, I often times still call it "chipping the car". And I work with the largest "chip" tuners every day, so take it for what it's worth. My main point was in regards to the original post about pricing - and my post explains why the cost of the upgrade is what it is. - Anthony

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What is your point to this thread exactly? To persude the entire board into agreeing with your opinion that Flashing a car's ECU is completely pointless? I guess if I knew your agenda some of your posts would make better sense. If you're angry at the prices tuning companies charge I still don't think I'd understand because since they are useless in your opinion why do you care? Asking me what I drive to make a personal attack... Posting a waving smiley face as a gesture of your superior knowledge... This thread is degenerating quickly I'm afraid. I suppose if I had read your original post as "Who in their right mind falls for this tuning crap?!" As opposed to an actual question of what is the point of tuning and what does it accomplish, I would have felt less inclined to weigh in.

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Russo, I actually agree. Most 911 owners aren't going to surpass their car's capibilities anytime soon in terms of driving ability. Better brakes and seat time at a D.E. are probably much better uses of the car budget!

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+1 on the A4. See attached. The feel was "night and day" difference and certainly well worth the price of admission. Although the same gains on a N/A 996 will not be the same, I was hoping that the supposed positive difference can at least be measured CONSISTENTLY by a Gtech pro. The runs I did with the Gtech was surprisingly very consistent and consistent for all our cars.

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Anthony, I think you explained common practice but perhaps not WHY. A guy who develops a tune for the Golf 2.0 Turbo has a market of perhaps 80,000 potential customers. The tuner for a 997 has a market of a few thousand cars. The development is the same but the number sold to amortize the development cost is very different. Best,

To the OP: I think you got the answer to your question. You can't compare results for a chip on a turbo vs. N/A. It's easy to get power cheaply from a turbo, the trick is making it reliable. (My B5 S4 got 52hp from an APR chip, but blew up three turbos.) The 996 chips may not be for you, but there's no need to imply the makers of those chips are snake oil salesmen.

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Agreed - the number of 2.0T ecu upgrades sold will be significantly more than a 996/997 upgrade. However, the time it takes to develop and tune that motor is considerably longer than an N/A motor. APR changes over 230 fuel maps on the ECU for the 2.0T motor. Fuel maps changed for a VR6 motor? About 12. That is about the same as our motor in the 996. So, yes, tuners charge more because they can. They take the average monthly car payment and that is how they determine their rate (for the most part). - Anthony