O/T: The Cayman...what am I missing?

I am new to Rennlist, but have owned for the last two years a 996 Targa (midnite blue/sav beige). The Cayman confuses me. Can someone help me understand why Porsche will succeed where BMW failed in marketing a two seater performance coupe (i.e., M Coupe)? Granted, BMW's coupe had controversial styling the market for which my wife was fond of saying comprised the huge demographic of gay architects (no offense intended). Not sure the Cayman has any advantage here. Both are powerful, sharp handling, two seater, rear drivers. And the beemer sold weakly at 2/3 the price. Are there really that many people out there looking for a $70K weekend toy? And, why wouldn't these people buy a used M Coupe for 1/2 the price? Whew...feel better already. OK, someone, please enlighten me. -- M

I don't think it's possible to overstate the ugly factor of the M coupe.

First, the M coupe was not mid-engined, and it didn't really handle all that well. I believe that the Cayman will scratch the itch that the Boxster S, with a convertible top, was almost, but not quiet, able to reach. It could be a great car for DEs and Racing, much more capable off the showroom floor than an M coupe. It is all about balance. Second, saying no offense after an offensive comment really doesn't help much.

Very simple. In addition to what TD said, the average age of 911 owners hovers around 49 yrs. Average age of Cayenne owners is about 45 yrs. The average age of the Boxster owner is 42 yrs. Porsche is hoping to capture the 40 yrs and below crowd with the Cayman... I guess we'll see... It is a tall order for Porsche since at that price range the only thing that will certainly sell the Cayman S is performance, so I bet this thing will be a pocket rocket.

Price is the only factor that is confusing to me about the Cayman. Styling as always is a subjective thing. As the car should perform (in a straight line) very similarly to my '99 996 it won't be a slouch by any means. With a rigid chassis and mid engine handling should be excellent. Now about that 70K price tag... -KJ

The car was probably beyond the point of no return in the pipleline when the dollar cratered. Now it is a matter of recouping some, vs. none of the investment. Might as well sell some at a high price than none.

I agree on the questionable price. One would have expected it to cost a little less than the Boxster S, since it is basically a Boxster S with a hardtop. Imagine if the Cayman had been priced at the same level, or a little below, the Boxster. Wow, that would be a homerun.

Yup....count me out. I considered it as one of many possibilities to add as a track car to my stable. For that kinda coin I would rather buy a used 996 that has more power and spend the extra cash on track mods. The Cayman just doesn't make sense. $60K before a dime is spent on it track-wise is just not practical

One more thing: For $69K you can have a faster, more powerful, base model 911! Most people that can drop 60K can drop 69K and that makes this a no-brainer. As Todd said....price is between the 987 and 987S at about 48K and WOW, this would sell like hot cakes and I would then be first in line. They missed the price point by over 10K.

Maybe they got nervous about brand dilution...remember what happened to Gucci? or Buick? Pricing can be adjusted with incentives once the uptake is known...

Sub 50K and they have me sold

Once you float down past a certain figure for your ride you'll notice the service starts going down the toilet..... Trying hanging around the MB and Porsche dealer for an afternoon, then go over to the Honda dealer..... "It's all part of the package..." -Eli

I like where you're going with this Dell. Plus the fact that the Caymans will be new mean what? That the dealers won't be taking anything off sticker or possibly charging more than sticker, while the 911s by the time that the Caymans arrive will have been out for, well, I guess over a year and dealers will be discounting them. So if the Cayman is 70K, it actually might be 5-10 K more for a Cayman than it would cost to buy a 911.

Spot on Fishman! As I said...it just doens't make sense to me. I guess the car is geared toward people that have more money than sense and just want what is novel. I just don't see a true enthusiast buying this car when they can have the 911 for the price of 10K more and IS what Porsche is all about and the racing heritage. Who wants to say they drive a Cayman rather than "I drive a 911"??????? Still stumped on this one.......only time will tell.

For the most part I agree, BUT I think that the Cayman will be much closer to a true sports car than a 911, which seems to me to be more of a GT, a great GT, but a GT nonetheless (except for the GT3, of course). If I were buying a new car either solely or primarily for the track, I would choose the Cayman over the 911, without question. Imagine stripping the crap out of a Cayman. The balance, the power to weight ratio, the hardtop etc . . . If that weren't enough, you could drop in a GT3 engine and nobody would be able to keep up. If I had not just bought a 944, I would be seriously tempted . . .

I do like the idea of that. However, stripping that down and then getting it prepped for the track (suspension, wheels, seats, etc.) will add another 10-15K maybe. So for $75K you have a serious track beast? A little more than I can justify to the wife

Yeah $75 K exactly the price of a two year old GT3 (or perhaps not quite enough for a used GT3) that has 100 + more HP than a Cayman and will be a guaranteed classic with great resale value. I never bought a used car, but I would in this case. (The Cayman for all we know could be the next edsel and have no resale value. Well, not everyone cares about that anyway. Hey, when I bought my 911, I didn't realize that the resale values were as good as they are, that was sort of a pleasant surprise).

Actually a Cayman S is faster than a base 997 around Nurmbergring (in the hands of Porsche factory driver Walter Rohrl). I agree that the pricing is aggressive. It's probably going to be a niche car (albeit a more successful one than the M Coupe) catering to the track enthusiast. One analyst predicted annual sales of 5000 units, but Porsche is stating a goal of 10k.

Sean.....What are the ring times for the two? And where are the OFFICIAL numbers published or is it just word of mouth? Thanks.

Dell, your assertion that the 911 is a better performer is also just pure assumption which is against what has been rumoured in the press....Sean's is also an assumption but in par with what's been published...so, being a Cayman S that no one has test driven, we are all making educated guesses...I agree with Sean, TD and car mags. that porsche will leave the straight line acceleration subdued to be less than the 911 but Cayman is going to be a better track car.....if this holds true, cayman will hardly be a car for people with more money than sense.....infact, 911 may fall in to that category. If we are wrong with this, I agree with the rest who claim that cayman makes no sense...but, if we are correct it will be harder to justify a 911 over the cayman...so, either way it will be a difficult sell, UNLESS like I have been saying the minute I heard of this cayman concept, porsche may have plans of developing the cayman to be in the current 911 price range and peformance and 911 will evolve into a radically different beast with light weight components and a price to match it's performance. But, if this concept of cayman fails, it'll just be phased off like it never happened. just my $0.024

Totally agree Jeeva....but I never said that the 911 was a better performer. I said it was faster. There is a big difference there. But you are right about that NOBODY knows exactly anything official yet. Which is why I asked for the published numbers. I hope nobody takes my opinion on this wrongly. I DO LIKE THE CAR AND WOULD LOVE TO HAVE ONE!!! I just don't understand the pricepoint they set it at when the 911 is within arms length. I will concur that a good hypothesis is that the cayman may replace the 911 in the 75-90K range and the 911 will become an 100K plus exotic with no sub 100K entry model. Makes sense. Moral to the story......nobody here is Nostradamous.....but we sure love to try

You're not kidding! My other vehicle is a Nissan Pathfinder. Man does that service dept. suck and it's not cheap either.

I agree with everyone on the pricing... it just doesn't make sense. I guess Porsche didn't learn from the recent mistake by VW. Anyone remember the Phaeton. VW claimed it would capture the upscale european large sedan market. Seriously inflated the price of that thing, to make it appear it had the prestige it deserved. And today you can get your hands on a used low mileage 1 year old for half the price of the original sticker... namely $40K to $50K loss in 1 year!!! And you thought 1st year depreciation on Porsches was bad... The Cayman S is following a very similar path. Creating a new market segment (just like the Phaeton), being offered new at an overly inflated price (just like the Phaeton), leading a warped view of what customers view as value vs. meaning (just like VW did). So in conclusion, absolutely don't buy one new, buy it a year or 2 later used, and you'll end up with a great car at a decent price (just like the Phaeton)...

Go point 40th! If I don't have my track car in place inside of 2 years then that will be one on a very short list. I have a feeling I will have a track car much sooner though (I have a feeling Todd will be a bad influence once I get back to DC next spring )

I have to agree

Here's a list of the 'Ring times I've seen. I saw the Cayman time documented in a recent magazine interview with Rohrl; someone scanned and posted the article online. I'm sure someone will have a more comprehensive list. Cayman S had a Nurmburgring lap time of 8:11 with Rohrl (4 seconds faster than a standard 997, and 7 seconds faster than the 987S). A list of other notable cars and their lap times: 7:32 - Porsche Carrera GT (7:32.44) 7:44 - Zonda 7:46 - Porsche 996 GT2 7:47 - Porsche Gt3 RS (sport tyres) 7:50 - M3 CSL (sport tyres) 7:52 - 996 GT3 (381hp) 7:52 - Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52 - Lamborghini Murcielago 7:52 - Mercedes SLR mclaren 7:56 - Porsche 996 Turbo 7:56 - 360 stradale (sport tyres) 7:57 - Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 HP, racing suspension) 8:07 - Ferrari 550 8:09 - Lamborghini Diablo SV 8:09 - Ferrari 360 Modena 8:10 - Chrysler Viper GTS 8:11 - Porsche Cayman S 8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version) 8:15 - BMW Z8 400 HP 8:17 - Porsche 996 C2 8:18 - Ferrari F355 8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 HP 8:25 - Audi RS4 375 HP 8:28 - Porsche 993 C2 8:28 - BMW M5 400 HP 8:32 - Porsche Boxster S (986) 8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe 321 HP 8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG 8:38 - Honda NSX 8:39 - Honda S2000 8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette 8:42 - Audi S4 265 HP 8:42 - Lotus Exige 8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe 8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430

I certainly hope so!

TD: Are there that many enthusiasts like you and the others here to drive 10K units/year? 911's can be made intro great track cars, but they also have enough utility to make them daily drivers for many. Assuming most mortals in this country can afford only one car, it's hard to imagine many will choose a small, $70K two seater hatchback. Performance may very well be blazing, but still. At sub-$50K, the earlier comments were right on that i) people would line up to buy that new weekend track car, and ii) the published price point has got to be a function of the weak dollar. PAG is smart enough to know that their brand is worth a premium, but it is not unlimited; and that people at all levels of wealth care about getting value for their money.

8.11 is crazy, but has been reported in several publications, quoting Porsche factory reps. If the Cayman Club Sport makes it to the US, I'll have one in my garage; I'm first on the list at my local dealer. A properly sorted mid-engine layout is and always will be an overall superior setup, even though front engine and rear engine layouts have certain advantages.

I agree totally on the pricing yet . . . . if it really does deliver on the performance, they may well sell 10K units/year. I think Porsche has really done themselves a favor with the new 911s and Boxsters. They appear to be very well received in the market. If the Cayman can fill in the "perfomance" niche, it could be a homerun. After I learn how to drive well in my newly purchased 944 NA, I very well might jump into a Cayman S if it proves to be as good as they say it will.

I'll wait a few years and if depreciation hits them like the Boxster, I'll have 2 pCars in my garage

The published estimated price is $58,900 (which is $5,600 above a Boxster S and $10,400 less than the base 997). More than likely the option pricing will be equal to those of the Boxster, and option pricing for the Boxster are equal or less than those for the Carrera therefore, at worst an equally optioned Cayman will be $10,400 less than the Carrera and at best even more of savings (depending on options, i.e. Bi-xexons are more expensive in the Carrera and so is the Bose system). To some this $10k+ is a huge amount. The price point is interesting because if Porsche prices it too low they may sell to many and dilute the brand name but price to high and they won�t sell enough to recoup the cost. Protecting the brand name and is too important to Porsche (along with being the most profitable car company in the world) because a majority of the cars sold are to people who buy Porsches because of the crest on the hood and not necessarily because of the car and its capabilities. (Rennlist however, in general is more enthusiast oriented than prestige seekers). I remember reading that the Porsche makes more money off Boxster S sales when compared to Boxster Sales, even though the base car out sells the S. I bet the same huge profit margin is built into the Cayman (especially since it shares so much with the Boxster). Along these lines C&D (I think) reported that Porsche indicates it plans to sell 15,000 Cayman�s in 2006 which will boost total units sold in a year to over 100k. The Cayman is being exalted (aka marketed) as a return to a more pure sports car. The jury is obviously still out on this. However, being based on the Boxster is a good start. The Boxster chassis is superb. I can only imagine what a stiffer more rigid coupe will be capable of. The nimble tossability of the Boxster is incredible and in many ways more fun to drive than the 911. The problem is the car has always lacked power and especially torque down low. However, the new BoxsterS is a significant step forward from the old one and the Cayman is getting even more displacement, power and torque. If 0-60 times are what are the most important thing then a Porsche is probably not the right car for that buyer anyway. It is a welcome change to see a car with a sub 3000 lbs. curb weight. Personally I think the current 997 engine should have been fitted in the car but then that may be a death blow to the base 997 from a sales perspective (read less profits for Porsche). I think the hatchback design is great and should really make the car even more practical. No one buys a Porsche (Cayenne excepted) as a main family/business car. That is what 4 door sedans and wagons are for. The added ability to haul to golf bags and other items of such size is great.

lol, that was exactly what I was thinking of doing.

Just got my Autoweek. Sez: "Officials in Weissach insist there is no club sport or stripped-for-racing Cayman in the works. 'The racing edge of Porsche is, and will remain the 911' said chief engineer Wolfgang Durheimer. 'No production car will supplant it anytime soon. There is no plan for a Cayman intended for racing at any level'"

And there goes the air right out of that baloon!