Not another IMS issue again !!!!!

Hi there; Recent re-entry back to rennlist after some time away. Long story short, I was driving back home when the "Dreaded Marbles" sound started coming from beneath centre/back of car. Pulled over ~ 200 yards away and got it towed to an indy that I sometimes use. After doing original scan, he said he didnt have the tools to do thorough analysis and so I got it towed to the closest dealer ~200 miles away. I hope that this isn't the IMS issue from recent history but my car leaked almost all the oil on the ground. What was still inside came onto the floor of the tow truck when he brought it to the indy. For the last year and a half pretty much problem free driving. However, I'm now ~ 3months beyond warrentry expiration and so I'm sitting on pins and needles. I should hear back from the dealer in the next couple of days. Yikes

dude, sorry to hear, post specs of car (miles date trans mods anything) the fact that the oil came out IMO is a bad thing but there is always hope. I feel for ya but until you know... you dont really know, so dont worry too much till the diagnosis comes in

well if you shut it down quick enough... it may be saved.. But hey.... Nothing 14 grand will nto fix at the dealer.... Its only money and you get more friday... and you will then have bragging rights to your buddies that your engine in your porsche was 14 grand!

Sorry bout that, 04 Carrera black/black, manual, chipped, plenum, exhaust, suspention, etc. etc. It only has ~ 37,400 ml on the clock which isn't exactly a lot. It does seem like quite a blur. There was absolutely no warning at all when she went. When I had it at the indy, he thought it might be the rear crankshaft seal due to the amount of oil spilling out. He even put another 2 litres of oil which promptly spilled onto his floor! If it is the RMS then great, if not............

Of course a dealer is going to say you need a new engine. Very few even deal with the LN MS bearing upgrade. You need to drop the trans, or the engine and trans, pull the trans and flywheel, then have a look. The noise would indicate it is the IMS not the RMS, but it may be savable, but again, most dealer don't know this or just don't want to do a non-Porsche fix. Where are you located?

man, I cant imagine whats going thru your head, but trust me when I say I really am routing for you!!

Fingers are crossed, let us know the outcome.

I'm north of T.O. and thanks for the thoughts. I understand that this is an issue that appears at times but until it happens to you, you can't quite grasp the thoughts going thru your mind. My fingers are crossed and that's about all I can do right now.

update?

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I didn't realize you were local. Who did you take the car to?

There is a zero hour 3.6 engine in the member FS section. Asking $9,500

dang ! I gotta talk to my wife

$27,000!!!!!! CAD THIS is what I was quoted by dealer. I was informed that, yes, IMS shaft broke, metal shards all throughout engine and obviously, total failure. The dealer mentioned that I was out of warrenty period. I was, by about 2-2 1/2 months. I was afraid that this was the case and it is. Now the dealer did mention that they would contact Porsche to see what could be done. Given that this did happen so close to the end of the warrenty period, they MIGHT be able to help in some way but no guarantees..... I have been thinking, if this is how much it costs FOR THE ENGINE, given what the car is worth, does this even make any sense?????? I also am thinking of calling the dealer in Texas, where I got her, to get any assistance about what I can do. Right now, though, I have this huge weight in the bottom of my stomach about this whole episode.

so sorry to hear.... that is insane! that seems high though.

I really hope Porsche does something for you. 2.5 months is so close...

awe man...... I am really sorry to hear that. There isnt anything I can say, but I wish there was

Here is another to join the club... The owner of this engine thought he had a bad RMS and never knew the IMS issue existed... That is until he pulled the tranny and found a weird broken stud in the bellhousing with a huge hole in the IMS bearing flange that released engine oil everywhere.. This one is toast, the engine didn't get a tremendous amount of foreign object debris in the oil, but the failure took out the IMS drive gear to the point that a new bearing can't be inserted. This one is downstairs right now, its a 3.6, the client is facing a 10K repair with us, a new Porsche engine, a used Porsche engine or an 18K full FSI upgrade. He was almost in tears yesterday when I had to put on my mortician's hat and tell him the news.. Here are some of the photos from yesterday's documentation process.. This one passed away at 51K, I signed it's death certificate yesterday.

holy! that is hard to look at.....

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People get crazy about the economics in situations like this. You have to compare the value of the car after repair, including future use, to the value of an engine-less roller. Fixing the car is insanely expensive, but not fixing it is usually more so. Do a spreadsheet. Seriously. The "engine replacement is more than the car is worth" logic, usually isn't. The rational choice usually ends up being between eating twenty large in depreciation and having no car, or having a great car you paid twenty large too much for. You were quoted absolute top dollar for a Canadian engine replacement. If Porsche does nothing for you and you want some options, PM me and I can make some locally-oriented suggestions. I would also humbly submit that the time-honoured Porschephile practice of finding a used motor and rebuilding it with great aftermarket pieces might be cheaper and produce a very satisfactory result. Sorry this happened to you. Hang in there.

Fight Porsche NA hard and persistently to get this taken care of at their cost 100%. I was adamant with them on my 2003 C4S, showed them all of my service records, including 3 RMS failures and 2 IMS issues. My repairs were covered 100% out of warranty by 6 months........be articulate with your presentation of facts and back-up documentation via mail to them and don't take the first no for the answer. Ask for higher authority at Porsche NA and your dealer to assist with request for out of warranty coverage at 100% due to the reported incidences with the base 996 engine not being a secret..only one that they want to go away....hang in there............sorry this happened to you..........

An aftermarket warranty (they call it a service contract) for powertrain, cooling system, HVAC plus fuel and braking systems will cost you a few hundreds a year and make this kind of trouble non existent. Knowing what we all know about pros and cons of these exeptional cars how can anybody be so careless and not make sure the car is properly insured? You can keep renewing it until the car is 16 yrs old and you have limit of 20k km per year. The price of the contract is just a pittance (few hundreds a year) and in almost all cases the claims will cover it fast, I am sure. In my case for instance just a new transmission which I enjoy now for free since less then one year of ownership paid for all the premiums twice over and then some. Before the car is 16 yrs old and 320,000 km on the odometer there WILL be at least one major repair-replacement made, no question about that.

I tend to disagree about the aftermarket warranty.. We have had nothing except issues with warranty companies and no longer accept work that will be paid for by the warranty company.. Last year it took us 3 months of fighting with a warranty company to have an IMS failure covered, the car sat here in the way the entire time. They didn't want to pay for the IMS replacement, but they wanted to buy the owner a USED engine for the car! There are exceptions, but my experience with aftermarket warranties hasn't been good at all.. The cubicle sitting, headset wearing "representatives" are generally lost and they will make every excuse in the world about why they won't pay your claim, or why they (conveniently) lost your paperwork. No warranty solves the problem. Real piece of mind comes from action.

You obviously chose the wrong company for your warranty, sorry to see that. My insurer paid gladly for EVERYTHING I claimed so far: Coolant expansion tank replacent, RMS leaks twice, IMS once, Sway bar end links noisy-replaced Brand new transmission from Porsche shipped directly from Germany, Additional labour to reseal intermediate shaft flange (not really leaking but already there so...) Free access so new clutch + flywheel installed (no labour expense, just the parts from Sunset) All this since Jan 2009 and so far 38,000 km driven CAREFREE. SERVICE CONTRACT WITH WELL REASEARCHED COMPANY R U L E S !! PS And yes, I considered aftermarket IMS bearing but in my case it makes no sense since it will create possibility of denying the engine claim since it is non-porsche part. But, why should I WORRY or PAY for a preventive repairs since I AM DRIVING CAREFREE ALREADY!!!!!?? PS PS I can see now how you can have a conflict of interest on this topic Jake.

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IMO, getting an IMS failure covered after 3 months of fighting is a "win." I see the repair facility's perspective, but from a consumer standpoint almost any amount of time is better than footing the bill. Especially if you get a loaner car while your car is in the shop. -td

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Heh, it appears that you don't know who Jake is, or what he is talking about. If you are talking 996 engines, he is, um, how do you say it?? Oh, the MAN. -td

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I don't disagree that he should fight, but I'm more pessimistic than you are. Porsche in Canada is notoriously hostile to cars imported from the US.

Yeah, I got it now, himself. Thats why my PS PS above still stands strong and true, even more so. There is absolutely no question an aftermarket warranty is the best way to go here. Failing that a big time preventative maintenence would be a second, more expensive and troublesome option of course.

It may be a "win" in some ways, but it wasn't for my company as I had a car on site that was stored for months. We also had to give up a service bay for 4 days while the insurance company sent people out to look at the car over and over again. One of those people looked at the steering shaft for the "IMS bearing" as he had it confused with a Ford that has an intermediate bearing on the steering gear that fails all the time! The people were LOST! Finally my client ended up losing so much of his time (He is a Doctor) dealing with the warranty company that he ended up paying me and then he dealt with the warranty company for another 3 months before it was paid. In another situation a warranty company paid for a new engine, but then they had a change of heart 3 months later and sued the claimant and that almost got us tied up in the middle of it. I am not alone, many of our shops that we work with also no longer honor warranty work if they are to be paid by the warranty company. The hassles, lies, documentation and overall lack of professionalism and sense of urgency that the warranty companies have can easily turn a job from being profitable to being a liability. I spent over 170 minutes on the phone last year with one claim and it never was honored by the insurance company. I was never paid for that. Some are better than others, so results vary. I'd rather take my chances, I never buy an additional warranty on anything, if it blows up, catches fire or implodes I just smile and walk away. At least I don't have to deal with a cubicle sitter that wouldn't know a 10mm wrench if it flew out of the flower pot next to his desk and thumped him in the nuts.

The $27K number is ridiculous!!! There is a new 3.6 engine posted now for $9,500 without a core. And you can buy them from Sunset, Suncoast and others in the low teens. This dealer is trying to charge list +++ for the engine and probably an obscene amount of labor.

This thread just gave me a stomach ache

Is there a special pain killer for porsche owners?

Interesting response from Jake a little over a year ago.... This was the original poster's opening statement... "Just had this diagnosis on my well-maintained 2002 C4 cab. Shop recommends engine replacement. Out of warranty. Car has only 38,000 miles on it. Any idea whether Porsche will accommodate me in some way given the nature of the failure and the mileage of the car?" Jake's response "...Lots of IMS bearings fail at this mileage, if you make it past 45K its usually good for 65K, if you make it past 70K it'll usually never occur." I replaced my IMS bearing at 100+k and it looked and felt like new. Maybe Jake's right. Be most concerned about the garage queens.

I hope Jake is correct that above 70k usually good, for my own sake, since mine is at 115k. But from a statistical point of view, think about two scenarios for the ims bearing failure: one, being just flawed and its just a matter of time for the bearing to implode as compared to scenario two where the bearing will fail because of an issue related to engine load, oil viscosity, frequency of oil changes, how long u drive the car every day, tracked or not tracked, etc. Assuming that most 996 are not daily drivers, most are below 80k miles, only a select few beyond 100k. The amount of cars that jake has seen with ims failures are in the below 80k miles because that's just the majority of 996's out there, but as time goes by, that number may shift to higher mileage cars. In scenario two, the failure may be postponed for a while but its just a matter of time too, since a bearing will ultimately fail I imagine. I think we are %^^$ed anyways.

"I hope" is IMO a bad way to address the issue/potetial issue/non-issue as Jake said, "Real piece of mind comes from action. "

I have been thinking (too much) about the dealer quoting $27K and I just get more and more outraged at this. How can they give such a price. I know that I can drop and replace an engine (in my driveway on jack stands) in 8 hours or so. Dealers typically charge 12-15 hours or more. At the rate of $169/hr. charged by the dealer where I bought my car, which is one of the higher around 15 hrs. is only $2,535, so where is the other $24,465? For an engine, which we all know can be bought by the dealer for less than $10,000 (the for sale post on the 3.6 engine says $6,800). This is an outrageous abuse, to put this price to an owner who has had the experience of having their engine go bad. What in the world are they thinking trying to make 100%+ profit on the misfortune of this owner. Quite frankly Porsche Cars should take action on such a quote. Don't they care about their customers, and their not being ripped off by dealers. Porsche should realize the buyers/owners of Porsche's is what makes their business, and if this kind of abuse takes place ultimately it will be bad for the company. I know I am venting, and probably just spitting into the wind, but this is just outrageous.

Remember, to Porsche the dealer IS the customer. They pay Porsche for the cars and parts not us. We are the dealer's customer not Porsche's. Basically, Porsche is more worried about keeping dealers profitable than about keeping prices reasonable for us.

I know there is another dealer in the area... Call them... or better call EUAutowerks... They will be able to get an engine swap done for a lot less (for a used engine)... Ask Rickker who is on this board. They did it for him.

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I understand what you are saying. My concern has to do with do I really think that I should just go ahead and get it fixed for this (or near) price; or does it make more sense to just cut my losses and look at getting a 997???? I realize that I have other options also. My Texas dealer suggested that I try and use the Cdn one for now and if still "no", then go ahead and call PCNA directly and explain the entire situation for them. Maybe something could be done then. In any event I'll wait until I hear back from Cdn. dealer for now.

I ride a Harley. Harley dealers treat Harley owners like kings. I have been all over the country on trips, and to Europe on a trip. The level of service, support and attention is pretty much universal. The dealers recognize, and Harley Davidson recognizes that their success and profitability is based on the owners, not the dealers or the manufacturers. I believe that if Harley found dealers were ripping off customers like this there would be a lot of heat on the dealer. Porsche could learn a lot about customer relations, etc. from Harley!!

its true Doug. but we love these cars and are brand loyal to some extent. I too am shocked at this whole thread on many levels, and saddened

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same here....

The Greater Toronto Area is the 4th largest metropolitan area in North America, and it has just two Porsche dealers. That's part of the problem. The other part is that Canadians pay world prices for Porsche, not those wonderful US prices. The only consolation is that resale values are higher here, too (which is why, of course, dealers are hostile to US cars).

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997s are not void of engine failures. The early cars still have the M96 engines in them. They upgraded the IMS in 06 cars but it is unclear exactly when.

It's true, one of my friend here in Dallas did a PPI on a '06 997 with only 25K miles (I think) and they indeed found a RMS oil leak. I was surprised on that one, thought that Porsche has "kinda" solved this seal issue after almost 10 years running...

I would bet that the Cdn dealer comes back and says that they will install a new engine if the OP pays all the labor costs. If Sunset was selling these motors (full factory reman units) for $8750 U.S. with no core charge! (tip motors were even cheaper). This offer was available until Feb 28th 2010 or until sold out. i still have the email. This motor only costs Porsche $5K at the most to reman and repackage. Maybe the Cdn dealer is looking to become the hero by saying "It would have cost you $25K and now it won't cost you anything but labor!!!!"

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Of course...take a dosage of Mobil 1 0w-40w and call me in the morning.

It is my understanding that Porsche has stop rebuilding M96 engines. My Indy said a new engine from Porsche is listed at $31,000, he showed me the listing on his online parts list. I found the same listing at Porsche oem parts list $31K actual price $26.6K. At that price I would send the car to flat6 and let Jake rebuild the engine. I sure even with shipping the car it would be cheaper and better engine. I would also guess the dealer cost of 27K is just for the engine and does not include taking the old one out and replacement. Other option try suncost parts, but my guess is they will be around 26K also.

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Yeah, I understand that the first gen. 997s have the same engine as the 996s. I was wondering specifically about the 997s from '09 onwards.

This is the old list from Sunset. hard to believe the price disparity.

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I just pulled one yesterday from an engine with 121K, it felt very good. I expect to open it up and find excellent wear. The IMS bearing is something that is only as good as the materials and assembly used to create it. Some are better than others, thats why their is no rhyme or reason to failures.

Are you sure that it's still available?

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Can anybody confirm this? If true, I might be tempted to do some preemptive work on my motor this winter.

I got a new engine from porsche 3 months ago, brand new engine, $15K, installed, 2 year warranty and every part on the engine excluding the AC compressor is brand new and covered with the warranty. Call Roger at Porsche North Houston, he managed to replace a clients engine same as your's only 3-4 months out of warranty for free. Mine was never under warranty after i bought it from a third party but Roger did a great deal for me, I was also quoted $24K by the other dealers in Houston.

One of the Toronto dealers replaced my engine under warranty last Dec. He showed me the internal invoice to Porsche which was $21k Cdn. At $27k they are truly hosing you as mentioned by others. I sold my car in May and the remanned engine was a large selling point. I also did very well on the selling price relative to what I paid for it 2 years earlier. It is worth repairing it. I have since bought a 996 turbo and hope that I have the heard the last of IMS problems. However, all Porsches have their issues. In the case of the 996 turbo, I do not believe that there is a self destruct button on the dash as there is with the NA 996 and 997's. Don't give up on trying to get Porsche to favourably respond. I think your best bet is likely with Porsche US rather than Canada. I think the Canada guys have the "It serves you right for buying a US car" attitude rather than the "Customer is always right" attitude that would serve them better.

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Yes, they have stopped support for SOME of the engines in the series. The 2.5 is no longer being supported for sure. We've known for years that 2011 was coming, so thats why I focused so much on development in 08 and 09 :-)

I was refering to the 3.4L engine in my MY99. I am not sure about the later engines.

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But by April 2010 they wanted $13,784 plus 2,387 core. I know because I was doing reasearch then to decide if I should renew my Service Contract. I also found out that Porsche factory planned to stop "subsidizing and supporting" (whatever it means) an engine replacement program for 996. We will (or did already) end up to be forced to buy the new engines at "full price" or have them rebuilt by unauthorized businesses. That was what finally convinced me to go ahead with my warranty renewal. By the way, maybe I am so big advocate for aftermarket warranties and my experiences are so positive because I am dealing with Canadian businesses here and not US? All is more expensive here but in return the market is much less predatory here than on the other side of the border.

Don't think so, Janusz. I looked at warranties in Canada when I bought my car. Like all aftermarket warranties everywhere, they were extremely expensive for what they offered, ie. peace of mind for the 95% of people who will not experience problems. As it has turned out, it would have been a terrible investment for me.

So if the warranty companies balk at $13,000 for a reman engine just imagine what they will say to a $31,000 engine. I had an Easycare warranty on my car that expired 8 months before I had my intermix in 2008. The dealer told me that even if the warranty had still been in effect Easycare probably would have found a used engine based on the dealer's experience.

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Its all part of the game..... Start at 27000.00 and Porsch is going to cover 13000.00 of it for you.. gets you to 14K. Ya know, what everyone else has paid.... Get ready they are just setting you up for the bend over. If they even call Porsche at all

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I can fix that with JB weld

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True, they don't want to put in complete motors anymore unless they are used. Aftermarket warranty companies are not what they were even 5 years ago. The economy has made them even more difficult to deal with, more unrealistic, and they come up with anything they can to get you. Your motor fails, the inspector comes out and finds you have oversize tires and aftermarket wheels...claim denied. There still are some good policies out there, but they are becoming fewer and further between.

We've replaced two IMS bearings at the shop just this week. BOTH motors were saved! BOTH bearings were ready to fall apart in your hand when removed, both under 50K miles. One owner actually did hear a different pitch of noise at idle and shut it off immediately. The other had the trans out at a local indy and they noticed a leaking flange and sent it to us. Finally some success stories Just this week I pulled the IMS bearing out of my '98 boxster spec racecar. It was the original bearing at 133k miles....near perfect condition. go figure.

So what exactly should folks consider doing? I mean, if these (IMS)issues are truly so catastophic AND there appears to be no idea as to when something like this can happen, does it make sense to perhaps start looking at either a different engine (maybe) for these cars or should we consider a whole different series (ie. 993s or late model 997s or 998/991)?????

d11w what people need to do is replace the bearing before it goes. Often times replacing a "perfect bearing" with the new LN Engineering one. Porsche's stance is the part is non-servicable. LN Engineering and Jake Raby found a way to replace it and re-engineered the parts with new ones. Do a google for LN Engineering

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A 996 GT3 or Turbo should be on the list. -td

actually the 996 is a bargin basement priced super car that (with some knowledge) will last many many years - trouble is that most people buy them because they are priced within their reach and dont either understand the problems or have enough left over to take care of them. Remember these cars were close to the $100k mark when new and a $3-4k repair bill is somewhat run of the mill.... most people who buy $25k cars dont have the spare coin to drop on that so maintenance is one area where the cars get neglected. Then add the classic "problems" which eat up a few mor $K and you have a situation where the owners are "hoping" instead of acting. As Tom states the GT3 and Turbo dont suffer these issues but if you wanna talk about $$$$ at the maintenance level and the intervals are more frequent.... well those cars are for you. So be diligent, be proactive, be aware, be ready.... It's a rough deal to find out you are facing a major repair bill, and I have said before.... I feel really bad for you

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Sorry, I should have included both those fantastic options. Hopefully I'll get an answer soon on the engine.

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well said.. as far as owners.... another 928 story in the making really. people buy them that cant afford to fix them. If I do get catastophic failure of my engine... Sadly I will throwe the car away and go get another one. Sadly that is what they have become.. The ugo concept....

Somehow we have to get the knowledge and parts to complete these engines into the hands of the regular person.. Without that the prices will always be astronomical and the car will end up like a 928. I've been working on that for 4 years, its a real task.

And let's keep this in perspective -- This is an $800 - $1200 preventive maintenance fix on an $80-$110K car to save $8-$20k on a new engine. So....we're talking about spending about 1% of the car's purchase price in preventative maintenance to save you $8-$20k on a replacement engine. If 996/997 owners can't do that, then please get a nicely designed economy car (Ford Fusion or a Japanese sewing machine) to drive and quit whining.

Harsh as it may seem, I think this is a fair assessment.

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I think this just about sums it up. The IMS really only affects less than 5%(debatable) of the total m96 engine out there anyway. I looked at my customer list with a couple hundred M96 motors, less than 2% have suffered IMS problems.

I agree.. In the big picture of total cars sold the percentages aren't great.. I see more than anyone and hear about them daily because thats my specialty. However, do you want to be a member of the statistics? Its like playing Russian Roulette, you don't know when you'll hear a click or when you'll hear a bang. Smart people want to cary out preventive measures, no matter how small the percentages are.

Man, all these sudden IMS threads are killing me... Now I have to seriously think about IMS preventive maintenance too since my car is not a DD. I start saving some $$$ and will have it done at RAC later, just hope that my engine doesn't grenade before that, keep fingers cross hard

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I don't have a problem with paying for "preventative maintenance". HELL, I don't even having a problem actually paying for the engine, but I do have a problem with being cast as some poor shlub who perhaps over-reached when buying the car and now cannot afford to be able to pay for its upkeep. I have maintained EVERYTHING that was required of me and then some. I have taken every precaution that I know of to ensure that my vehicle stays in tip-top shape. So DO NOT try to compare my efforts as being anything less then what would possibly be asked of me. I wasn't aware of possible fixes before. As I mentioned earlier, I haven't been that involved on this forum for the past couple of years. I only chose to post recently when I remembered about this forum AFTER my engine blew up. So don't try and pawn this off as "another whiner" who can only afford a F#%*ING Ford Fusion or Jap Scrap

Looking at the Flat6Inovations site, the cost of the preventive maintenance is not $800 - $1200, but $3500 to $3700, plus the cost of getting your car to Georgia and back. They also mention on the site that the process itself could destroy your engine. Not so much of a no-brainer that everyone seems to be making out.

hold on there... I know James and I am sure he was NOT refering to YOU... nor was I.. please...no one here is anything but symathetic to your situation. No one is blaming or accusing... it was asked what can be done and I pointed out that ONE problem is the low price attracts buyers that might not understand the car and might be in over their heads on maintenance costs... thats all.. please dont think we are assuming YOU had that issue. I think if you start reading at the point you asked "what are people doing" about post #64 or so you will see James is replyiing to what I said which was in defense of the 996's after Tom said get a GT3 or turbo - I said they are good cars, james said spend money repairing them or dont buy one..... just my take on how that went

My agreement to the "whiner" comment went like this: The risk to these engines is now widely known to anyone who bothers to do any research before buying. And the fear is already baked into the depreciated price of these cars. So anyone who buys one and is then surprised by bad news was either unprepared or was rolling the dice. This isn't meant to excuse Porsche at all. At all. But we're definitely in caveat emptor territory with the 996.

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There are independents all over North America that can do the retrofit. Total price here in Toronto is under two grand now.

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This can be done for $800 or less if you borrow the installation tool. The actual process of taking the flange off, removing the bearing and installing the new parts takes 10 minutes. If you have the skills to remove the transmission (which is easier than many other cars), replacing the IMS is within your range. Yes it will take a few hours to remove and install the transmission. If you are not a DIYer, more and more independent shops are installing the upgraded IMS units. For about the cost to do a clutch which would not be near $3700.

Two calls today.. One before lunch and one about 15 minutes ago. One of them was self induced as the person made his own "retrofit kit" with an unknown bearing that had been shimmed to fit correctly.. He wasn't too upset, just hoped that he could swap the correct retrofit bearing without engine disassembly. He called two weeks ago while doing this and I didn't tell him it was a bad idea, I also didn't recommend doing it. I figured I'd see what the outcome was. He is a rennlist member :-)

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Thank you Ed. I probably kind of went off half-cocked because of what I thought was the insinuation that maintenance could have prevented this and that the upkeep was not there. Look I really do like the car. I've had it for some time now and can honestly say my enthusiasm, whenever I take her out, has not diminished even slightly. As far as this "fixit" thing goes; what are the options now? Do you or do you not have to drop the tranny or engine to get this devise installed? I'm kind of confused as to what exactly happens.

Thanks for the info. I'm a DIY'er to some extent but wouldn't think of doing a job that big, nor would I have the facility/tools required. If this retrofit is available closer to home and for around two grand, I would consider having it done. The key is to find a place that has done many of them. I don't want to be their first case.

Wow. I thought the ****ty valve guide issues that plague us 993 folks were a pain in the ***, until I read this thread. I feel for anyone that has an IMS failure. And Porsche should be sued in a nice fat class action lawsuit for selling so many $100K lemons. Guess a $10K top end rebuild on my 993 C4S when the day comes ain't so bad after all...

wyovino: Call Charles at LN and ask what shops in the U.S. buy his kits in quantity. My guess is that it's the 80/20 rule. I.E: 20% of his dealers are installing 80% of the kits sold.

N/P if I was in your shoes I might be tad "on edge" too so the "fixit is a "prior to the marbles and oil leaking out step. Yes the transmission is out and the flywheel off, motor pinned at TDC (top dead center) the bearing and seal plate are removed with a special tool that LNE has/sells/borrows out and that is that in the case where the shaft has become loose and rattled about, chains jump timing, valves smaking pistons, bending carnage... its pretty mush game over for the motor. LNE has "parts" to put it all back together and in the end be stronger/better but the cost -vs- time equation needs to be studied. If your shop doesnt know how to rebuild the motor that is another huge issue (my indy has rebuilt motors and I was there when the first one was being done, its quite involved.... do a search on youtube something to the effect of Boxster motor rebuild... its a 7-8 part series and although not exactly the same, gives you a real good idea of whats involved, most dealers have NOT rebuilt any m96's) I hope this is helpful although a bit late... keep in mind a "new motor" will not have the LNE part and IMO is subject to the same type of problem you are faced with currently keep it cool, have a brew.... on me if i was there

Nothing like an IMS discussion to get the troops rumbled.... I'd like to count how many times the same thing is said in different threads on IMS.

janus what is the name of your warranty provider? PM me if you'd prefer to keep it private

Well, well, well. I just found out that the dealer offered to replace the engine free of charge. I would have to pay for some of the labor used, however even that was offered to be partially subsidised as well. This is a HUGE weight lifted off my shoulders (obviously)! While talking to my service contact, he mentioned that they were getting many other IMS issues brought to their attention with other 996s. After I asked if he thought there were an unusually large number of them, he said" oh no. For all major engine failure dealt with there at the dealer, he figures those with IMS causes were well under 40%." I'm glad the other 60%+ don't have to go thru what has been a terribly unfortunate situation for the rest of us. Anyway the engine is being shipped from Atlanta and should be arriving either late tomorrow or soon thereafter.

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I am actually not a real human, I am a "cut and paste" macro program

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congratulations, it's good to see PCNA stepping up take care of clutch and any belts, coils, plugs that may or may not come with the new motor while they're in there

DUDE... how did I miss that post ! THAT IS GREAT NEWS !! I am guessing there will be some gifts for the service guys once she is delivered!! WTG!!

Great news. You are one of the lucky ones. Play the lottery. NOW!

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Ed is correct, my comment was not referring to you, personally. Surprise...this is not the first IMS thread....nor is it likely to be the last. I had mine replaced by a local shop; included new RMS & clutch (throw out bearing/friction disk/pressure plate). Full labor + parts about $2700 total. Realize, that I fully support those who just want transportation. A Ford Fusion is a good car -- just not a passionate one. There is a lot to be said for buying a conservative car that will have minimal service costs. I've sold most of my interesting cars over the years because I got tired of service/repair issues. So far, I've been fortunate that my 996 has been essentially trouble-free. Must have gotten one when the labor unions were happy that week or workers were still in the glow of Octoberfest.

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Actually, the valve guides on every air cooled 911 are. Just that "in the old days" you never got to the valve-guides-are-worn stage because generally the engine would puke a chain tensioner. Tell me how receptive owners were 25-30 years ago needing a complete top end to repair the engine fully and correctly............. It was nice that we could actually repair, as opposed to the replace as is the norm today. (I'm not even going to address pulled head studs on the 2.7L engines as you usually got warning. Was 50-50, at best, that you did on tensioners.)

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Which local shop is that? Both Squires and Chris's German Auto have quoted me $4K (including tax).

Chris's. It would have been closer to $4k if we wanted to/needed to replace the flywheel. But mine was fine and I saw no reason to replace it. Based on your driving style & the actual condition of your DMFW, you may choose differently. I might have had them replace the AOS at the time if I had thought about it -- but -- I didn't. So, I may have to pay the dues on that decision later.

Thanks guys. I do feel that I kind of dodged a bullet back there. I did ask the mechanic to take a look at things. Apparently the clutch shows very little wear and I did ask to make sure any of the other issues (belts, etc.) were sorted out also. The engine does come with a 2 yr. warranty as well. I'm still concerned about the engine overall. There were improvements done to the design over the years and I will be getting whatever latest changes were done, but does that imply that this could be a problem later on???

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most cars leave well south of that, but the fact is there is a "test" for the DMFW and if it fails, thats almost $1k for a new one... my guess is that they include that in the bid, call and ask.... tell them Ed talked to you and.... wait, maybe thats a bad idea seriously, these guys are top shelf, Squires is not a water cooled guy and "IF" he like you he will talk to you, otherwise... not so much. the other factor is what car... if you have a C4 the quote mioght be a little higher as there is more involved

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But I didnt spend 100K on my car i spent 17K on my car.... And if you can find me a stock 996 pulling 100K. Well... I'll send my wife over for ya to use.

WOW that's great news for the OP with the new engine at no cost, congrats! As for me, I am keeping mine for the long run so will save some money for the RMS/IMS upgrade later...

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I asked the same question. I could not ascertain a satisfactory answer and decided to sell instead. Congrats. Could you PM me? I'd like to know which dealer you used. I find one to be far more helpful than the other and I'm curious to see if your experience is consistent with mine.

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The engine will be improved, other than the fundamental design issue around the intermediate shaft. If it were me, I'd drive it like a demon for 1 year and 11 months, and then if you still love it, put the IMS bearing upgrade in. It's a great chance to treat a new engine exactly the way it should be treated, and thus make it last. These really are very good engines, other than that one issue. The cloud over them is largely unfair, a product of people compressing 14 years of development and a certain amount of hysterical pattern-finding. If I had a shot at a new motor in an otherwise great car, I'd keep it forever.

yup, what Bruce said ! if its covered... smile and drive the wheels off it!

awesome!.... you must of been good in your past life.

One problem.. The replacement engine CANNOT have the IMS retrofit applied. Thats because the orifice in the crankcase that allows for IMS bearing access is SMALLER (by a lot) than the new IMS bearing applied since 2006 in all new and reman engines and Porsche vehicles. The IMS bearing it comes with with live in that engine for eternity.

the only thing you can do then is pop off the seal on the bearing .... right ?

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Unfortunate, but it wouldn't be enough to make me sell the car. The odds he'll never have a problem are still overwhelming, and he's got two years of insurance anyway. This is still a great day for the OP.

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so they basically said Fork You, Jake Raby. Do you think this was done with your kit in mind?

+1 Bruce... Yea Kyle, Porsche was worried about Jake getting rich so they redesigned the IMS

Could be to prevent grease from draining by having a higher lip. I gues it would add some cooling also which would help prevent grease burn out.

pac, have you taken your meds today

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Yep antibiotics and pain killers. Just got a hot rush a minute ago though. Maybe the smaller hole it to prevent the mice or squirls from escaping Nah must be some engineers design reason like preventing movement or other concerns that would ruin integrity in the system

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So then what are my options then? Like I said earlier, I have warranty for two years. After that, is there anything I could do to be somewhat proactive?

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^^^^^

It's actually part of Porsche's new bi-annual engine program. A new engine every two years whether you need it (or can afford it) or not. It should be very profitable for them.

Between the friendly dealership and engineers workmanship, this confirms that those car are so amazing to drive that ... there really is no substitute Or is there... ?

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No, they simply put the largest bearing in the position possible in hopes of creating the ultimate solution, albeit unserviceable. They also fail.

if I am not mistaken the ***** on a bigger diameter bearing have a higher surface speed than on a smaller diameter at the same rpm, so in principal if you run higher RPM's and keep the surface speed on the smaller bearing "UP" you have done the same thing. (unless its out of grease) My guess is Porsche knew a bunch of its clients "putt" around and wanted to increase the surface speed of the bearing....or they thought "bigger was better" - though that is not the way a performance car company thinks..... right?

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You can call me nostradamus.

Yep. Thats why MORE IMS failures happen with engines driven AT LOWER SPEEDS! But try to explain that.. People can't grasp how in the hell an engine that is driven harder is less prone to failure!

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Nope, larger bearing means the outer race is spinning slower (much slower in fact), as well as the ***** are now also going slower. Bad and Bad. You want the bearing to go faster. That's why I try to tell people to keep the RPMS up and drive it like it has an aircooled engine (above 2.5-3k all the time). The only MY06-08 cars I have seen fail have been low mileage cars (coffee tables), babied (tiptronic cars, straight to 5th gear at 10 mph), and that are only driven short distances or in traffic, with poor maintenance. I would imagine that without the grease seal and keeping the rpms up, you could easily get 150-200k out of the IMS bearing. In fact, some of the highest mileage bearings have been early dual rows with 200K miles that were still operational, but upon trying to remove them to do a retrofit kit, just fell apart (separator failure coupled with excess ball and race wear = ***** fall out). And these were from guys who changed the oil often and drove the car hard (lots of track time).

Charles Does that mean on a MY99 996 if you try to do the retrofit kit and the ***** fall out you have just created a complete rebuild on a motor that may have lasted another 50-100K? My question is does this turn a $3K job into a 20K job?

I dont think there is anough clearance between the end of the IMS shaft and the block to allow the ***** to fall into the motor (see post #17 where Jake shows a "***** out" pic) In Jake's pic the IMS shaft has been destroyed and the mototr has to come apart, but in the case where the bearing falls apart but the housing is not bad, the retrofit can proceed. That said, if the ***** fall out, then the center of the bearing is out but the outter race is still in the IMS shaft and a new approach has to be fomulated to extract the race. One way that can be done is to spot weld a couple points around the race which will cause the race to "shrink" from the heat and make it so you can get it out.. the other is to make some form of a puller... either way ALL pieces have to get extracted... hope this helps you

ivangene So i'm walking away with the impression it is still worth the rish of doing the retrofit, as the cost would still be less than a full engine rebuild. But it makes it important to have someone knowledge do the job.

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After looking at the condition of my IMS after I "pulled it" and the comments from Charles and Jake, my IMS would of probably lasted another 100k+, (I updated @ 100k). But with the improved IMS in the car, I NEVER worry about the IMS and expect this engine to go well beyond 200k, loving every minute of it!!! In my case, I did the install myself and it only cost $595. The new tool LN developed makes removing the IMS a dream, just pops out in a minute. Completely intact.

Jim is correct this can be, and is being done at home BUT it is a major job and if your tool chest is limited, your time is limited, or your ability to handle potential "issues" is limited, then YES, an independant authorized LN Engineering shop would be a wise choice. Many shops quote the job at about $4k but include a new flywheel, disc, PP and throw out bearing and RMS as well since the labor cost is the same to include those new parts... IF you opt against the additional parts my guess is the job can be done for in and around $2k or maybe even less depending how fast they are. I would not bank on the lower end because most cars will be wise to swap at least the clutch set out while in there.....

and YES - this is a "must do" IMO and worth ever cent of risk to save from the possible catistrophic failure

Is there anyone experienced and credible enough to do the retrofit in Canada?

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Now that's RELIEF!! Not even a long needed **** can't offer that much relief!

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That should be avoided. Do it all at once, do it right or you'll be back there again for more expense. This isn't a Honda or Toyota, the labor isn't cheap and the work isn't easy. People ask me all the time "Can you do this procedure cheaper?" and I reply kindly "no". I have a set rate for the process, that set rate includes the required time and all associated parts to carry out the process as thorough as we feel is required. Some shops less experienced with the process still do the work by the hour and do not include the other items as part of a package with a totally revealed, up front price tag. The work should not be done unless the vehicle owner has the budget to do all things required.

Should the chain tensioners be replaced on a 115k miles '01, if ims is done? and how much do tensioners cost?

I guess instead of saying "most cars will be wise to swap at least the clutch set out while in there....." I should have said "ALL Cars" yes, as Jake said, do it, do it right or be back in there for the others... BUT the question sounded like the person was a DIY type and might consider pulling the tranny as not that big of deal... the tensioners should at a minimum be inspected for rubbing gawling or wear.... replacement is not required unless wear is seen IMO, not sure the cost....

You can get all three tensioners for about $200 at Sunset, Suncoast or porscheoemparts.com. Now for someone like me that has about 8k miles on a clutch, flywheel and RMS I don't t know that changing them out again makes sense.

yes, I agree... although I understand Jakes point from a "shop stand point" for the DIY'ers I think this could be played differantly and even at a shop depending on the condition of the clutch/flywheel but I understand the point, which is why I stated "dont expect it to be on the cheap side"

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Sorry, I've been busy the past couple of days trying to put some milage on the car! The dealer said that for the first 2000 miles, I should keep the rpm to less than 4200 at all times, that speed itself should not be too much of a concern, and to let it warm up for ~ 1-2 min. before starting from cold. My question is : does this jive with trying to properly "use" the engines the way they were supposed to be used (ie. keep rpms up, shift periodically and get the counter up tp 6-7000 rpm) in other words dribve like you stole it?

Follow the dealer's advice for the first 2K miles, THEN drive it like you stole it.

But I'm only at 400 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is going to take forever

I have a 99 C2 Tip that I track about twice per month. The car has 120k on the clock. After the 4200 mile round trip to Parade this year, the car had the RMS leak. While the engine and tranny were out, we updated the IMS bearing with one from LNE. While its heart and soul were out, we replaced o rings, water hoses, oil separator, torque converter seal, and anything that could go bad. Hopefully, the P-Car will last another 100k before a replacement engine is purchased. By the way, Jake was right. the bearing that came out was intact.

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Then you are not driving enough! Drive it 200 miles every Saturday and Sunday and during the week take the long way home from work. You'll be at 2,000 miles before you know it.

that advice sounds off Jake? (under 4200 for 2000 miles?) maybe what they said was under 4200 till it warms up... then by all means rev the motor and run it.... IIRC redline before the end of the driveway on the new motoris the school of thought (and I am not kidding)

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Don't take advice from me, because I'm not qualified to offer it. All I can tell you is what I'd do: No way I'd warm it up for two minutes. I'd want the whole engine warming up and cooling down at the same time, and you only get that by driving it. I'd warm it up for a few seconds and then drive off. I'd stay under 4200 rpm for maybe 500 miles, but not 2,000. I've always believed that engines should be broken in the way they'll be used. After that, I'd step it up, revving a warm engine much higher than that. I might not have the nerve to hit the redline before 1,000 miles or so, but I'd be more aggressive than they're saying (in addition, you don't want the ECU to record you bouncing it off the limiter while you were breaking it in, because that might threaten your warranty). Speed is, indeed, irrelevant, since you don't have a new transaxle or brakes. I'd be interested in Jake's take on this as a rebuilder, too.

Almost what Bruce said....keep the redline reasonable (e.g., 4200) for first 500 miles. But.... Find a good incline. Don't lug the engine. But give it (close to) full throttle going up the incline. (keeping rev's within max) for 1-3 minutes. Turn around. Come down....cooling the engine. Repeat several times. This does Wonders for setting the rings without glazing the cylinders.

I'm new and searching for my first Porsche. I had decided on a 993 and I missed out on several that sold. Part of my fun comes from the search and getting the perfect car at the best price. I decided against the 996 mainly due to this IMS problem. Now, I'm rethinking the 996. It makes sense to me to buy a nice 996 at a good price and do the preventive IMS swap. Then I'll have a relatively newer cool and reliable Porsche at a bargain.

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good thinking. :-)

+1 man this is a scary thread...

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This is the approach I decided to go with for the 996. My IMS was fine when I extracted it but I don't regret doing it one bit now that I have some peace of mind on the subject. Bargain priced 996 + IMS retrofit = Great deal. I like this formula

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Shhhh... don't tell anyone. If the secret gets out, we will have to pay more for a fantastic car!

I just want to add. I have a mechanic friend who agreed to help me with the IMS swap. I pay him, but below what he normally charges when he's not busy. Paying a shop 10-14 hrs at $140/hr would still make financial sense to do this swap, but it will not cost me anywhere near that cost. New clutch while at it. Then I'll have a really great car as I see it.

Good call.