What happened to my Porsche?

I have a 40th anniversary I purchased used with 10,000 miles last August. I put an additional 5000 miles since then. Today I drove about 15 miles (normal drive) to my dealer, Barrier Motors in Bellevue (Seattle) to take advantage of the lifetime free carwash. While waiting in neutral with the engine running I heard some very strange clattering, scraping noises coming from the engine end of the car. I visual inspection showed nothing but to be safe I drove over to the service bay about five blocks away with the engine making the noises for a bit but which stopped before I got there. Once there we looked for a possible source of the recent noises to no avail. After shutting down,the engine began spilling oil from the bell housing, not dripping, not gushing, just a steady flow. They guessed it might be an intermediate shaft failure. After reading this board for the last few months I gather this is not unheard of. The mechanic indicated that they do engine repairs as well as engine replacement. What are the pros and cons? The service records indicate that RMS was replaced in the past. Should I expect (or insist upon) an engine replacement? Does the two failures suggest a problem with this particular engine? This is my first Porsche and this type of dramatic failure is not confidence inspiring. BTW it is still under new car warranty with an additional two years of CPO coverage beyond that. Is this why I was mildly flamed on a previous post wherein I admitted to using an automated carwash? Did my car commit suicide rather than submit to another automated scrubbing?? Your thoughts and suggestions, please.

if u are under warranty, press for a engine swap.

Sounds like a classic IMS failure - good that it's under warranty.

If it starts; rev it and make sure you kill the engine. It will be replaced under warranty.

Intermediate shaft failure is the current best guess. My concern is this: If this component failed with only 15,000 miles, why? Is there something misaligned in the engine case itself? As I noted, the drive over there was just normal city/freeway driving. If this is merely repaired/relplaced am I likely to have this failure repeat? What is the nature of the weakness? Thanks.

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A. Sorry your car died; and B. DAFS !!!!!

I even googled DAFS without a sensible result. Please translate.

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Three of the letters mean "Do A Search". I'm sorry for your trouble, but the topic has been done to death around here. Some raw nerves.

Sometimes the IMS is not centered correctly and damage the seal causing an Exxon Valdiez (massive oil spill) which results in a catrostophic engine failure. Your situation is probably pretty rare in that you heard it starting to break loose and it dumped the oil in the dealaer's lot no less. Unless they can give you a 100% guarantee in writing that no damage has been done to the enginge, I would recommend that you push for a new engine. You will get a nice remanufactured X-51 engine, which will have some improvements (changes) that have been instituted since your original engine was built in late 2003 or in 2004.

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+1 this is a known possibility based on questionable original design

Actually I did a FS but didn't find the info I was seeking. My foremost concern is; is there an increased chance of repeated failure of the intermediate shaft if it has failed once on a particular engine. Also what is the likelihood that some of the failure products have caused additional damage or might remain in the engine to do so in the future. Is this failure similar to the RMS which seems to repeat itself in some engines? The RMS problem, while annoying does not make the car stop and spill its vital fluids, and is much cheaper to fix at one's leisure. The mechanic indicated that Porsche has become a bit stingy about full engine replacement as opposed to repair. Are there any out there who having had the intemediate shaft failure repaired/replaced, found no futther problems? The dealer will not be able to get to the car until next week and I want to know as much about this problem before I discuss the fix with them. If this is something that just "happens" every now and then but does not repeat then I would not argue with a repair of my current engine. If it does tend to repeat with some engines and there is a good chance I have one of those I would of course push for an engine replacement. This is a lightly used car, only 10,000 by the first owner, so I assume it was a "garage queen". I am usually a gentle driver, easy on clutch and brake, not so much on the throttle. I drove for a living and am not hard on machinery, the TR-4 I had as a kid left my possession with well over 100,000 miles and the original clutch.

.........

I think I saw you in line behind me today... I took my MB there and saw a 40th in line. Jeff , Justin and Gary are great guys and will push to do the right thing. Jeff is the key person that will communicate with the Porsche rep. Good luck

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If you saw me at the service bay there was alot of oil on the floor.

no---at the car wash.

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funny - i was at the carwash too, then over to Barrier (dropping off my C4S to sell on consignment). Great to have that free car wash - we have three cars from Barrier for for that. Sorry about your engine - that sucks. Mine has 55k and never a problem of any kind. The guys at Barrier will take good car of you - they are super.

Another garage queen bites the dust. Maybe there is something to the belief that an easy life is not good for Porsches. Sorry to hear about your problem, but with a warranty you really have nothing to worry about other than the inconvenience. Just keep pushing for a new engine if it is serious. Become best friends very quickly with the service manager. He is your first line of defense against the bean counters at Porsche N.A.

Bronston - I am not aware of anyone that had an IMS failure and had just the IMS shaft replaced. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I just have never heard of it happening in nearly 3 years I have been active on Rennlist and Renntech.

If your car has the original warranty....bring it in and they will fix it. And why are you guys coming down on this guy so hard.....his engine just blew....so who cares if he didn't do a search.......damn.' As for future engine failures....there are no guarantees in life for anything!!!

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I like Justin. Cool dude. And, bud, sorry about your troubles. At least the weather sux for fun driving. Get the engine replaced. I would accept nothing less. You want a remanufactured engine. My car has one.

They will not crack that case to fix this problem, my guess is you are assured a new motor. Sad to see on such a low mileage car. Is there ever going to be a recall? This is just BS. At least YOU have warranty! Best of luck with your car, and post some pics when you get it all worked out. Flame away.

Thank you all for the input and kind words. I am so far positively impressed with Barrier. I will post when they get to the car next week and let all know what happened. Again, thanks for your kind words and interest. ( I really did do a search! Honest !))

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I suppose DAFS was kind of harsh. I apologize. I should have said it differently. Maybe PDAFS!

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+1 Lucky his engine didn't cease up!

Bronston, Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Glad to hear it is still under warranty...whew! This is the right place to bring your mechanical/technical advice type questions. Doing searches and reading about something going wrong with your car leaves you on an island. It doesn't come close to the advice and support you will find here. Best of luck. Andy T

I don't think we have encountered an engine once it makes over 60K miles. Clearly its a design issue and prolonged use of the engine will weed itself out.

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it does seem like there's something to this. anyone have an IMS fail who drives the daylights out of their car?

It's documented to some extent that certain failures are mileage time-bombs. Excellence has written about this a couple of times. And all the Porsche people I know or have read agree that these cars are less trouble if they're driven than if they aren't. I think these are two separate issues, but both valid ones. If I were doing it again, I'd still avoid an ultralow mileage car, and I'd still choose the risks of driving it daily over the risks of leaving it parked. Just one point of view, but sooner or later the anecdotal evidence piles up enough that you have to believe there's something to it.

Sorry to hear that another engine is gone. I believe here in the US Porsche does still go with new (rebuilt) engines after almost every kind of engine failure under warranty. However, talking to a Porsche service manager in Europe, Porsche forces the dealer there more and more to repair (kind of rebuilt on their own) the engines instead of replacing them with factory rebuilt units. However, you should get in any case not less than 2 years warranty after the repair/replacement; only tip: don't park the car for these 2 years - drive it whenever you can!

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ago and was in the shop and spotted a Carrera on a lift with its engine out. Started looking around and then spotted the engine disassembled with various pieces hanging around (like engine cases) and on carts covered with clean red shop rags. I started snapping some pictures and mech. saw me and we got to talking. Engine suffered an intermediate shaft bearing failure. One picture clearly shows the obviously damaged IMS bearing race in the shaft end. Luckily the owner shut the engine off before serious damage occurred. THe mech. told me that upon disassembly the metal from the IMS was not in the oil pump, scavage pumps, etc. and whatever inspection is required to permit the dealership to rebuild the engine was performed and therefore the engine was deemed rebuildable. Parts I guess were on order and he was awaiting the parts to begin reassembly. It was obviously going to get a new intermediate shaft, and at least one camchain tensioner/guide that had broken. (BTW, I have all pictures of the engine I took that day. I posted them on several threads on PPBB. Sorry but I don't have the thread links.) It was then I was told that Porsche had changed its policy and in some cases engines could be rebuilt at dealerships if the engine of course passed inspection during partial teardown and was suitable for rebuilding. As for the IMS, one theory has it the bearing is undersized and thus can fail. Oh, the engine in this case had around 20,000 miles on it, was a manual equipped car, and was generally not thrashed. In fact from the pictures of the pistons there is considerable deposits present indicating to me the car probably was subjected to short trips, probably of the commuting nature, in the SF area. (Which means approx. every working day a cold start in the morning followed by a short less than 5 mile drive to the office, then another cold start at lunch with a short drive to lunch and a start and short drive back to the office an hour later and at the end of the work day another cold start followed by yet another short drive home.) Anyhow, the trouble is a new/improved IMS with a larger bearing is available (and is fitted to newer 996 engines) but is not retrofittable to older engines. The new IMS has a different camshaft drive sprocket that would require a change in crankshaft and camshaft drives. (Howevev, at least one UK Porsche shop (Autofarm?) remachines a new IMS removing the new sprocket and grafting an older style sprocket to it thus permitting the upgrading to a new IMS with a larger bearing into older 996 engines.) More recently, in a UK mag I read that at least one knowledgable independent Porsche shop believes the seal of the old style IMS (the internal seal and not the one that seals the oil inside the crankcase and is guilty of causing IMS oil leaks) is too good and prevent sufficient oil from reaching the IMS bearing and has some modification it performs to address this. Sincerely, Macster.

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What years constitute "newer" and "older" engines?

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I would understand that to mean 3.4l (1999 - 2001) versus 3.6l (2002 - 2004).

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There were actually 4 different M96 engines used for the 996 between '98 and '04: - MY98/99 (3.4) C2: M96/01 - MY99 (3.4) C4: M96/02 - MY00/01 (3.4) C2 & C4: M96/04 - MY02/03/04 (3.6): M96/03 M96/04 updates: Porsche changed to e-gas, modified the fuel injectors, used a new crankshaft, a new air injection pump, auxiliary drive belt tensioner housing as well as a new alterator and pulley. Further updates for the M96/04 engine for MY01: new crankshaft and timing chain (plus self adj. mechanism) and the intermediate shaft on the camshaft received attention again. Fuel injectors were again revised as was the auxiliary drive belt tensioner. The 3.6 M96/03 engine was basically a complete new engine.

Harold, Is there a way to find out which engine model we have with the vin# or do you need the engine#? TIA

Yeah ask Loren to decode the vin for ya.

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Is there an official 996 blown motor support group yet? El Oh El.

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You've a US MY00 C2 Coupe, so your VIN should start with: WPOAA2 99Z Y S6. The other model years have only one different letter/number in the second block: MY98: 99Z W S6, MY99: 99Z X S6, MY01: 99Z 1 S6, MY02: 99Z 2 S6 ... Btw, MY98 was sold in the US but sold as early MY99, so we've basically the same 2 model years in the US as the rest of the world, the market here just works different and we're used to call late old model year cars different.

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intermediate shaft occured mid-'01 or thereabouts for the '02 MY. Sincerely, Macster.

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I know the picture's fuzzy but I think you can see the very rough bearing races arising from the bearing failing. As I mentioned in another post the owner of the car shut off the engine before the bearing failure had time to take out the engine. Just an educated guess, but I'd say the engine had just seconds before this failure progressed to total engine failure. http://i9.tinypic.com/67dtx6g.jpg Sincerely, Macster.

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This is the link to the Autofarm mod. http://www.autofarm.co.uk/engines/wa...led/shaft_tech It is a little hard to tell from the description, but it looks like the seal was changed for MY03. The real problem may be the bearing is undersized as this page says that the bearing size was increased for the 997.

They have all the parts and the engine is starting to go back together with completion due next week. It seems that there have been several "improvements" to the intermediate shaft along the line. I have been assured that the "new" shaft/bearing is "better". One rep stated that the new shaft/bearing I am getting is "larger and stonger" but fits into the same opening in the case????? At this point there is little I can do but accept the repaired engine. I know many on this board have had years of wonderful driving. This is my first Porshe. I have admired these cars since the late 50's when I worked a bit after school in an imported car shop behind my home. If I had had more than six months of good service before the engine puked I would not be as uneasy with the car as I am now. Porsche takes the position that this problem was so infrequent as to not warrant redesign. In their universe it may be a fraction of a percent, in mine its 100 percent. As I noted in a previous post, go scan a Corvette or BMW M forum. There doesn't seen to nearly the number of replaced/repaired blown engines. Porsche has some great engineering and some not so great. Finally, thanks to all who have chimed in with information and support.

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where you're having the work done. My second-hand info is that while a new/improved intermediate shaft seal (consisting of multiple o-ring like seals replacing the single o-ring) and better sealant on the threads of bolts that hold the seal in place can be retro-fitted a larger intermediate shaft bearing is not. The larger bearing comes courtesy of a different shaft with besides the larger bearing a different style of crankshaft to intermediate shaft chain drive. Even though the intermediate shaft may fit in the older engine cases the chain drive is incompatible and nominally would require a crankshaft swap (along with the chain and almost certainly any chain tensioners/guides that help keep this chain properly tensioned and in place). As the link to the Autofram web site shows, Autofarm remachines a new style intermediate shaft with its larger bearing removing the new style chain drive sprocket and fitting an old style chain drive sprocket. Thus one gets the larger bearing (and at the same time the better seal) while the new shaft remains compatible with the existing crankshaft and its intermediate shaft drive chains. Of course even with the larger bearing this shaft fits the existing engine case. From the picture of the failed intermediate shaft I posted shows the bearing failure includes bearing races that appear to be integral to the shaft, I'm not sure how a larger bearing could be fitted to an old shaft. (Well, having some machining background, perhaps a new old style shaft could be remachined to take the larger bearing. But I note Autofarm didn't go that route so maybe there's something wrong with my idea that renders this not a solution.) My memory is not always reliable, but I seem to recall when speaking with the tech about the M96 engine from which that shaft came speaking to him about the repair and what was could be done to see it didn't happen again (for this engine anyhow), I was told that the old style intermediate shaft was fitted, there was no other option. Now maybe that's changed, and Porsche has managed to produce an old style intermediate shaft that remains compatible with the crankshaft but does come with a larger more robust bearing. It might be an interesting question to put to your service writer/manager. Sincerely, Macster.