looking for guidance, already searched threads...

hello everybody... obviously, i'm new here and have been reading through many of the topics/ forums over the past week. i'm looking to buy a car within the next couple of months and am just trying to get my research in. also, i'm helping my by friend locate and purchase a cayman 987 right now. there is a lot of great info, but i wanted to throw some things out there... I've noticed when shopping that 996's are priced more competitively than other models, so that's why I'm starting with the 996's. I also read in a thread that if one is looking at a 996 they should look at 2002 or newer. Is there a specific reason for this? From what I've read, no 996 is immune from a potential RMS leakage issue. If one does occur, I also understand it's not the end of the world. What does concern me is that many of the used 996's I've been looking at have 60-70K miles. Is this for a reason? What can I expect the life of the motor to be? I spoke with the owner of Callas Rennsport here in SoCal and he was explaining that there are no rebuilds of 996s, you actually have to replace the entire engine. What I am trying to aviod is paying $35,000 for a used 2002 996 and then getting stuck with a $12,000 repair bill to replace the motor. I do understand that there a price to owning a Porsche. It's not that I am trying to get around it, but if there is a benefit to spending an extra $6-7K for a car with let's say 40,000 miles vs. 60,000 I would like to know. I'm coming over from owning a Lexus (a Toyota) and a Toyota 4Runner where 70,000 miles is nothing (I ran the 4Runner to 180,000 miles with no problems). Sorry for being ignorant but the whole Porsche world is fairly new to me. Thanks in advance for the advice/ help/ commentary.

Welcome!! Porsches compared to other semi exotics are german workhorses when maintained properly. Every generation have their quirks and issues. 996s are the best bang for the buck right now. I bought this generation because I can drive the snot out of it without worrying about resale value due to high mileage. There are engine failures but not many of them with over 60K miles. Most of the engine failure occur with lower mileage engines. If the engine makes it past 60K miles, odds are that it should be OK. I put 8K miles on in the past 7 months and currently have 74K on mine. It was on a lift last friday for an oil change. It is dry as a bone as I was checking it out. You can buy a car with a remanufactured engine which is better designed and has the issues sorted out. Make sure you get a PPI prior to purchasing the car or buying it from a fellow rennlister with documented maintainance records who is upgrading. Good Luck with your search. When you find one, people here are very willing to help you to see if the one you are looking at has been cared for. You will become emotionally involved with prospective cars. People here are very willing to help if you are serious about buying one.

The 2002+ MY has the Turbo front lights and redesigned interior which I really like (I had a 2001 and now a 2004 so I was able to put lots of seat time in both). I have 62K miles on my 2004 - a well maintained 996 should get many, many more miles without serious issues. If you're new to the Porsche world I would suggest buying a CPO car from a dealer (you can only buy a CPO car from a Porsche dealer) which would include a 100,000 miles warranty - a little extra money will buy you peace of mind. The odds of blowing your engine and having to replace it is still pretty slim either way. Rob

In short: Welcome '02+ are considered Mk II, new headlight design, bumpers front and rear, different (nicer in my opinion) interior materials, stiffer chassis, 25 more HP and I'm sure I'm missing a few things Engines have failed at any time up to about 60K miles, then few failures are reported RMS is not a big deal Get a CPO car or extended warranty There can be no comparison of these cars to a toyota or lexus. What you give up in bulletproof reliability and inexpensive service of the Japanese cars you are rewarded 10X's with performance and styling. Remember this is an exotic, it just happens to be the least temperamental ( with the exception of maybe the NSX)

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Welcome. Here are the typical things I say to all: 1. Go get a PPI of your car. (Pre-Purchase Inspection) From a qualified independent Porsche shop. Best place to get a recommendation is contact the President of your local Porsche Club. 2. Learn the car. Every thing that is good, bad and ugly. 3. Take your time searching. There are PLENTY of 996's out there that have been maintained and kept nice. Don't go for that cheap one down the street because the price is nice. 4. Average prices for these are car's are high 20's on the low side all the way up to high 70's for the more desirable years and models. 5. N/A Models (From most $$ to least) 996 GT3, 996 C4S, 996 C2. 6. Look for enthusiasts to buy your car from. If a guy is a Porsche-phile, it is VERY likely that car has been maintained to the 9's. 7. ASK QUESTIONS. Ask those specific questions. Rear Main Seal...has it been done? Has the maintenance been followed? Does the car have records? The more you ask, the more you know. That's all I can think of at the moment. The very last advice I give (IMPORTANT) - Buy the car with your head and not your heart. Good luck. C.

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where you live. Read in a UK mag a writer going to look at a used Porsche and finding it had some serious and shabby repair work done to it. The buyer had purchased the car from either a Porsche dealer or a good independent Porsche specialist with the car coming with a pretty good warranty. The warranty of course covered any mechanical problems that might arise, like even engine failure, but didn't do anything for the owner when he found out he had bought a Frankenstien. It pays to really really know what you are buying and not relying upon the seller to not sell you a car you shouldn't buy. Sincerely, Macster.

True, any used car is not without risk. I think you mitigate your risk somewhat if you get a car that at least has an extended warranty.

thanks for all the replies. yes, i've read a lot on the boards that people recommend buying a CPO with extended warranty. That REALLY sounds like it does make sense and worth the extra couple of $$$. I will admit it's hard to look away from the car's on sale at the local boutique dealers. I live in Irvine, and right near my house in the Irvine Auto Center there are 3 boutique shops (AutoSport International, AutoHaus West, and MotorCars Direct). I dropped by and noticed they tend to be really pushy and all insist that there cars are "immaculate", but don't have all the service records to back it up... As far as authorized dealers, I just know of McKenna in Norwalk, Rusnak in Pasadena, Pacific Porsche in Torrance, and Beverly Hills Porsche. Any references would be appreciated. I stopped by the Newport Auto Center Porsche near where I work in Newport Beach, and all the cars are priced about 20% above market value so I moved on. I think I will start talking to McKenna. thanks rennlisters for the initial help, ill let you know how the search goes...

No service records, no thank you.

Don't be afraid to deal hard on price with dealers. The stickers in the window often have very high prices, don't think it is the final price. High prices on the used cars on their lot help to justify the price of a new car to someone looking for a new one.

... wow... i was reading more through prior posts and i don't think there would be another way for me to familiarize myself with all the options that were once available with the 996s. obviously, what options the car came with is changing up the pricing a lil bit as well... i'm repeating an earlier post, but i just want to make sure, is it general consensus here on the board that intermediate shaft failure is something that happens earlier in the life (mileage) of the car rather than later? most of the bad occurences i read about were of 996s with low mileage, babied by a PO that all of a sudden blew up. although i believe i do recall some occurences happening post 60K miles... thanks!

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I came across more than a few on non-Porsche dealership lots. In fact, I found a Boxster and an SLK *in* a nearby Nissan dealership's new car showroom. As my research progressed what I found was some car dealers will buy halo cars at auction -- where I lived at the time in the midwest Florida cars are preferred because the cars are close (relatively speaking), don't accumulate lots of miles, and do not get exposed to the salt/sanding that is common further north -- and then place these cars on their lot, in their showroom, to well, bring in the foot traffic. 'course most shoppers will leave with something else, but the car serves its purpose. Sure it is for sale and the dealership will be very happy to sell you the car. But it usually (always) priced quite high -- being a 'halo' car it is to be expected -- and you'll be surprised how many people are not up on the Porsche prices. While not everyone of these cars is a bad car, they are almost always priced at a premium and their condition is suspect. When I came across these cars, at least initially, I would run a CarFax check on the car. What I found is usually the car had several owners. Too many owners to be such a new car for my liking. After awhile, what I decided I wanted -- in a used Porsche -- is a one owner car bought locally, serviced locally. What I found after some more used car looking I could quite easily afford a new Boxster and bought one. However, my interest in getting a Carrera is growing and I have been sort of searching used Carreras (996s and some 993s) and I'm sticking with looking for a one owner vehicle, bought locally (maybe not where I live but where the car is located) and serviced locally. Never say never but I have no plans to buy a Porsche off a Nissan dealer's lot, or a Ford lot, or any other new car dealer's new/used car lot. Sincerely, MarcW.

hope i dont offend anybody... im getting weary of guys in cheap suits, heavy cologne and with very thick foreign accents trying to sell me a porsche... 2 really bad experiences - was one with this ukranian salesman who didnt know the difference between the C2S and a GT3 and the other from a middle eastern salesman who insisted that if i bought the car, i could get hot women... lol... (i'm sure my fiancee would love that)... i'd ask a question like "which options does this one have" and he'd say "everything"... then i said "what about that car over there" and the answer was "everything".... hmmm....

Have you tried autotrader for a potential private owner sale? This may get you a one or two owner car with documented service records and potentially a transferrable extended warranty also.

I bought mine off a car lt...don't recommend that. However, I've put 15,000 trouble free miles on it and just turned 75,000. I feel like God takes care of drunks and fools so he took care of me on this purchase (I must have more than qualified ). As I've said, if I had it to do over again and bought another 996, I would look closely at the guys on this site who wanted to sell. They may want a little more for it, but from the guys whose threads I've read, look at the cool aftermarket stuff they've done, the maintance and care they given it, and all the sorting out that's already been done. Also, I wouldn't think twice about buying a 996. It's been a great driving experience! Can't add much more to what's been written as you've already gotten some good advice.

thanks for all the help... does anybody have any comments on the following? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-...em220192054255

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I'm sure everyone does. Mine: I think the mileage is too low, and the mods would concern me.

My car is for sal............ ah, forget it............ I'll turn it back to the lease company and let them send it to the Manheim auction.

The best strategy, especially for a first time Porsche buyer, is to find a CPO car at a good Porsche dealer. Notice I said "good" Porsche dealer. There are some bad ones out there. You need to find a dealership and sales person that you think you can kind of trust. The best situation is to find a CPO car that they originally sold, one that they did all of the maintenance work on, and usually one that got traded in on a new Porsche. And you want to get a car that has been driven, not stored in the garage. I think you want a car that has at least 5000 miles a year on it. That was the situation when I bought my car used at 40,000 miles. I knew the entire history of the car, knew it had been previously owned by a Porsche enthusiast who only traded it to get a new one. I even know that he had traded in another Porsche when he got mine. After 50,000 of mostly trouble free miles (only fly in the ointment was the transmission had to be replaced under warranty), I know I have a really good car. You have to search though to find that combination, but it can be done. You can find good cars on used car lots, but it is really hard to get the history. And the history of how the car was maintained and even how it was driven is really important. That is one reason why being able to talk to the previous owner when buying privately is so important. The issue of having to replace motors is real, although only a small statistical risk. It can happen though on any car, it is just that the Porsche approach is to replace the whole engine with all of the attached hardware. That drives up the price, but then afterwords you are truly way ahead. My car now has 93,000 miles on the original engine. While I don't anticipate having to replace my engine, if it happens, I figure I put out the money but my resale value has jumped up by about half the cost of the new motor. When you look at it that way the risk doesn't look quite so bad.

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Tim has a very nice and clean car. His car is a great example and the price is hard to beat.

+1 on Tim's car. meets all the advice I see on this thread.

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/402656-what-happened-to-my-porsche.html My advice is to never own a Porsche without warranty unless you can factor in the cost of a new engine. I have another couple of years before mine runs out. I bought a 2004 40th anniversary (with about 10 months new car warranty and an additional 2 years CPO) with less than 11,000 miles which showed no sign of ill-use. It was wonderful, like a new girlfriend, I couldn't keep away from it. That changed last week when the engine puked, while sitting at idle in neutral. The engine has been completely torn down for replacement/repair of the dreaded "intermediate shaft failure". I have been assure that the new bearing is larger and stronger. What is disturbing is that this problem was known from the first 996 engines and this marginal component was still being used four-five years later. There is nothing preventative that can be done to predict or prevent this "hand grenade" from pulling its own pin. Some just fail. From the view of Porsche the failure rate was not significant enough to warrant recall or redesign. In the overall universe of all Porsches that may well be true. In my universe of Porshes it's 100 percent fail. For comparison I went through ( here I become an apostate) a Corvette forum, scanning a few hundred postings. What I didn't find was anywhere near the number of total engine failures or "I'm on my (insert number here) RMS replacement. For what I spent on a used Porsche I could have almost bought a BRAND NEW Z06 or BMW Z4 M coupe with thousands left over. I may have many trouble-free miles in my Porsche in the future. But to continue the above girlfriend analogy; she betrayed me. No matter how good my experience in the future each long trip will have a bit of unease. At this point I am "stuck" with the Porsche. If I were to sell it upon completion of repair, the loss I would suffer would be about the cost of a future engine failure. Most Porshe engineering is the best in the world but some is sub-par. Too bad it's not the door handle or something less lethal to the car.

yea on this very board and it makes sense... people praise porsche engineering and if a fault occurs, they make up excuses... not enough data, the repair cost doesn't add up to much, blah blah blah. no matter how cool the car looks, how great it drives, if i don't believe that the car is dependable, it's a complete pos to me. i can't love a car i can't depend on because i don't have peace of mind driving it since it is a toy, a pure pleasure mobile. for as much as i like the 911 for how it drives, i appreciate my '99 jeep cherokee's bulletproof inline6/tranny combo, the honda civics crazy reilable/low maint ownership exp etc etc. RMS/IMS sux bottom line. it's only on a 911 where i want a remanufactured engine. i would never say the same on the S54 in the E46 M3. that sucker is bulletproof. the F20C in the S2000 is bulletproof. not here, though. not here. so take that extra care to get a ppi done, check out the past owner(s), kick the tires. and yea, tim's car is a rennlist car so if the color and options on it is your bag o' potato chips, i wouldn't hesitate to look at that car given its price, ownership history, and condition.

bronston: i read your initial posts and that was the cause for some of my concern regarding the 996... you and some guy who's 996 took an oil sh$t in the car wash line (or was that you?)... in any event, it is a bit unsettling. in the end, the valuable lessoned i learned from RL is CPO's from a good dealer w/ warranty is WORTH 100% the extra premium you pay. i liken it paying a bit extra to buy the company with a strong balance sheet and great cash flow vs. bargain hunting for a steal... i figure, hell if you are going to commit to a Porsche, buy the right one... i just have to overcome the thought of the extra $5-6K to be spend that would be otherwise wasted on "other goodies"... =)

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I would not buy this car. I can see that there are more mods on it than he is listing which makes me question what else has been done and by who. Also, a RUF exhaust is not going to get you 15-20hp, no way. I think your best best is to buy CPO from a dealer or buy a car from a know forum member and shop for an extended warranty if you would be unwilling to pay for a new motor out of pocket. My advise is also to stick to '02+ 996's

i bought my c4s from a private seller on 6speedonline. i made sure to purchase an aftermarket warranty thru my local porsche dealer for about $3500 out the door. CPO is not necessary. in fact, a CPO car can well be owned by a clueless owner who leased it and then returned it and then the dealer quickly adds the CPO (that 100+ list checkpoint deal is worthless). so don't thikn CPO is necessary. it's not. absolutely. u still need to do PPI and warranty coverage is available to you thru the dealer.

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You're right. it is hard to make the jump from the reliable... i drove my old '99 4runner up to 178,000 miles. i used to say that i'd always own a lexus/toyota b/c of the practicality until this year, i already made the jump to chevy and bought a denali... so i figga's what the hell, let's go to porsche as well... the hard part is once you justify the higher cost you continue to look at the next model up.. well, if im going to spend xxx on a C2, why not pay another x to get a C2S, or pay xxx to get a 997... or i can get a lil bit older TT for xxx.... there are so many possible choices it can drive you crazy and i agree w/ you on the other motors, but i'd say you forgot VQs, KA24s and SR20s.. i help some friends out on their project cars and those are GREAT motors... sorry (off topic)....

akim, have u driven a 996 carrera? this is where it kills all the VQs, S54s, and F20Cs of this world. it's just a superior driving experience. so then u know u gotta have it... i have complete peace of mind (knock on keyboard) with my '02 c4s. i've put on about 12K miles on it since April 2006 and nothing's been out of order. i do have a remanufactured engine in the car which was replaced under factory warranty. sure it may prove to be reliable for as long as i own, but i wouldn't have gotten this car if i didn't get that aftermarket warranty. so when you marry that peace of mind with the drive, there is no substitute. you just gotta find one u like and make sure u have something to cover your ****. what's left is the drive which has been an absolute blast.

That is we buy them for emotional/pleasurable reasons, not just for their transportation value. To own a Porsche you should love it and I did until last week. Unfortunatly, at this point I do not love it much, but as noted above I am stuck, a "divorce" would cost as much as a future new engine. I agree with Benjamin Choi about the excuse making for the chronic Porsche problems. Go look at the Corvette board; they don't have to make excuses and there are many more Corvettes out there and if I can be a bit presumptous, are being driven by a less mature crowd. They don't seem to need excuses. Maybe I'll go over to a BMW board and do a similar informal survey. Thanks to all who didn't flame me for my apostasy.

i did drive a C2... and i really do enjoy the car. i'd love to try an S or higher model to see what that's like. of far i've driven everything a dealer is willing to put in front of me. i tried the old 986's a new cayman 987S (great car by the way) and a 996C2 and a 997C2... love the 997, but too expensive right now... i dont know what it is, b/c its not the horsepower, its just how the car feels. i've driven in plenty of cars with more power to the wheels, but it doesnt feel the same a pcar... and that's why im lookin... cheers..

Akim47 : I was very confused at the time I first started to look for a car. Here is a summary of my path to Porsche ownership... 1.) Became a member of Rennlist in Aug 2006 and "lurked" on the site learning everything I could about the different models (air cooled, water cooled etc.) bought about 10 different books on all the models and became a "pest" at the local dealer ship to look over any used/new cars I could - result decided I wanted a 996 2.) Shared some of the "potential" purchases with RL community - learned again.. 3.) Decided I wanted a 996 MKII C2 coupe 6speed- MKII for upgraded interior material and the 3.6L: C2 - because I like the balance of the shape from front to rear without the extra "55mm" in the back an S or Turbo brings into the picture (kinda well defined " athlete" instead of "body builder") - also I did not like all the Vents - purely aesthetic reasons - (here comes the barrage...I am bracing) 4.) Decided I was going to buy from a dealer with CPO and following criteria - a.) had to be originally sold by the same dealer - full "Papers & History" - Clean history never painted (car fax etc.) - PSM & Heated seats at least 15K miles but no more than 25K miles, 6 speed I came to those criteria by the great and deep wealth of knowledge provided here on the forum and my taste ... I bought my car in August 2007 - 2003 C2 - Seal Grey with Black partial leather - Carbon shifter and brake handle, Bose sound, heated seats, PSM, rear wiper and Carrera 5 spoke wheels (new tires) full service (oil change etc...) and CPO - 18K miles for $46,500 from an official Porsche dealer and a great sales guy, who I am sure I will do business with again...As of now I have put 4.5K miles on it without a problem, however love the smile that this car puts on my face when I drive it even after a "tough" day at the office. Even if I had "issues" I would not want to do without my P-car. If anything develops I would simply want to have it fixed and the "relationship" continues... Good look and take your time...

If I had it to do over, my first choice might be a CPO car, second would be a private sale, and that would go to first place if it was a Rennlister. Last option would be a non-CPO car from a dealer. That's what I bought. I figured they wouldn't sell it if it was a toilet, and I got some BS story about it being non-CPO because of mileage. Clean Carfax. The car turned out to need a lot of love. I won't bore everybody with the details, but I'll just say this: If a car is on a dealer lot and is not CPO'ed, there may be a very good reason for it. Buy something privately with a reliable indy to do the PPI for you. I was very disappointed, to be honest. Felt stupid. I spent what it took to make the car right afterward, and it's been a testament to how they're better if they're driven. But I'll never buy from a dealer again.

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Just to clarify some terminology because I have seen this in the thread a few times. There is no C2S for 996. 996 models C2 C4 C4S Turbo Targa GT2 GT3 C2 Cab C4 Cab C4S Cab Turbo Cab Their was a x51 engine performance option (no displacement difference) for the 996 but equipped models were never called 'S' Boxsters come in an S 997s come in S (S cars have 3.8L engine vs. 3.6L) C2, C2S, C4, C4S and the assorted cabs, targas and turbos and GTs Caymans come in an S

thanks! and only the C4, C4S and Turbo cars are widebody? is this correct?

My 99 996 with 66-67k miles had a head gasket leak = fried motor. About 30,000 miles ago it has a RMS leak. Now it has a 44,000 mile motor with new clutch new hose, belts, yadayada. Coming home tomorrow from the shop. It's going on the auction table very soon. As Choi said, I am getting me a reliable car that is boring....a Lexus, or maybe even a Camry. Shoot me, or wake me up.

Is your car a manual C2 coupe? If so I'm interested, PM me. Ahmet

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only c4s and turbo and gttwizzle

+1 on pat056's suggestion of checking this site. I would feel better about purchasing one of the cars here than even a local car. See gotta911's car for sure. IMO...This community is tighter and more beneficial than the perceived benefits of a local purchase. Andy T

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Don't assume your jeep is bulletproof. I had to replace the tranny on my 1996 jeep and one of the reasons I let my 2000 Jeep go at 144,000 miles was that the tranny was starting to slip just as the '96 did before its transmission had to be replaced at 100,000 miles. I know of at least two other Jeep GC owners who had to replace their transmissions. Still I like Jeeps because, they are relatively cheap to maintain. A Jeep transmission is only about $3000, so it is not such a big deal. A motor replacement on a Porsche or even a transmission replacement is a big deal dollar wise unless you are covered with a warranty. My problem now is that after February 5th, I am naked and I don't think anyone is likely to write a warranty for me on a 10 year old car with 93,000 mile. But you roll the dice in life and take your chances. While there is no sense putting $3000 in a 2000 Jeep GC with 144,000 miles, I would not hesitate to pay for a new engine for my 1999 C2, should it ever be necessary. The rest of the car looks and feels like new. I could not say the same about the jeep even at 100,000 miles.

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Only C4S and turbos are widebody. 996 GT3 is narrow (based on C4 chassis for stiffness but only rear wheel drive) 996 GT2 is wide body 997 GT3 is narrow body

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Sure of course not every Jeep is going to come out unscathed, but it's predominantly been the case where the 4.0 I6 Cherokees last a long time with simple maintenance. It is truly as bulletproof as a car can get. They made hundreds of thousands of these whereas the 911... with its valve guide issues, RMS, IMS, etc.... a fraction yet known to have engines leak/blow up here and there. You drive/maintain a 911 diff than a Jeep. I certainly do. both cars have been reliable to date and i hope they both continue to be "bulletproof"!

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Crazy, The 997 GT3 is not a wide body, it is a narrow body listed as 71 inches wide and the 997 C2 is 71.18 inches wide. The GT3 RS is a wide body at 72.9 inches wide. All measurements exclude the side mirrors.

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Ah only the RS I see, thanks! I've edited above.

all cars have issues...period. my co-worker has a 03 camry and he had to replace his engine approximately one year ago. what i have experienced after joining this forum is that many people here only post topics when they have serious issues with their cars...if you determine how many 996 have had their engines replaced based on the total number of 996 cars produced, you will see that this relates to only a small percentage of these cars. it is a known fact that the some early 996 models have had issues and subsequently porsche has made modifications to the drive-train address these. also remember that you are buying a performance vehicle here, not a suv, sedan, minivan ect., but a car that many people drive hard and to their limit. there are not that many cars out there that you can take to the track on the weekends, drive the crap out of it, and at the end of the day drive it home park it in the garage and drive it to work the next morning... my recommendation fwiw is to first buy the newest car you can afford...if you are looking at used car, no matter how many miles it has, i would try to buy one that either still has the factory warranty or has been certified by a porsche dealership. a ppi is also recommended, but again you will read stories here about owners who recently purchased their car, performed a ppi, and two months later had issues come up. there is only so much that a ppi will tell you. like ben said earlier, if neither a factory warranty or cpo certification is available, then try to purchase a aftermarket warranty...these cars are great to own and drive. like anything there is a price to pay in owning a porsche, but the driving experience is second to none.