Hello OR Goodbye?

So I posted a Thread asking if there was a thread calling all IMS failures and, if NOT, let�s start one that keeps a record of year, model and mileage and known driving conditions of these failures. You�d thought I�d slapped your mama or something. It was closed by a moderator almost immediately. He claims he was asked by fellow members to stop the IMS failure conversations cause it leads to too many arguments about the validity and cause of this problem. That members where tired of reading about it. REALLY! You people just can�t, NOT click on those threads. Anyway ,Enough about THAT. I�ve been a mechanic my whole life, USAF Aircraft, B52, KC135, A10, I�ve also rebuilt just about every American made motor out there. I just started riding and working on Harleys (2011 FatBoy Lo} about 2yrs ago, so believe me, I know about Brand loyalty on Forums, but at least they�ll talk about it and try to defend. I�ve only been interested in Porsche for about 2 weeks now and have been reading and studying the flat 6 since. What I�ve found so far is a severely flawed design in the IMS shaft that any engineer should have Identified and fixed many years ago. Who in their right mind would have installed an ISOLATED, sealed, ROLLER bearing in the middle of an engine crankcase? Maybe because people where too proud to openly talk about it in fear of damaging the Porsche reputation, I just DON�T get it. Anyway, here is my plan for a mint condition 2003 C4S 64,459mi great handling, fun to drive, IMS FAILURE, car. A Renegade, LS3 or LS7 install for the simple reason that Porsche screwed up the design on THIS engine and a LS, 430hp minimum engine, with the handling of this car is going to be phenomenal. The reliability of a LS compared to the maintenance cost and time bomb feeling on a 996 is enough to convince me that this is the right choice. Now Question IS, do I continue to POST on this forum or should I move on, since I�m planning on documenting every step of this build, including the teardown of the 996 motor. Let Me know how YOU feel MSgt Michael Thompson USAF Flame away if it makes you feel good

If you were the first one to try to gather info on failures of the 996 engine then you might have been justified, but you aren't and probably won't be the last. It does get rather old discussing over and over again some of these issues. Good luck with your conversion(also been done before) and share your work if you want. Nothing personal, just old news.

So Your Saying Nobody, Nowhere has been successful in Tracking IMS Failures? Not Understanding WHY you people are not interested in this tracking?

Have you read all the related posts on IMSB? If you have time try the search button on the subject and you ought to be overwhelmed. Perhaps Porsche has the actual # of failures, but evidently they aren't sharing.

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Even more reason, YOU trust Porsche? One of my Harley forums has a "Calling all FatBoy Lo" thread, Largest thread on there where every FatBoy Lo owner logs in, That's what I'm talking about.

This is going to get closed again. Read the sticky. 996s came out over 13 years ago. There is nothing on the subject that has not been covered on this forum. I suggest do a search.

Why don't you just do your build, post your progress, and ask your questions? Those who are interested will participate. Those who aren't won't. It's not complicated and doesn't require a discussion. I'm interested in what you are planning, but don't have the patience to wade through a bunch of Internet drama to see it. Just my .02.

Please post your teardown and rebuild thread, a lot of people will be interested in that, I am for one. Few people are interested in the IMS stuff, no clarity will come and you will NOT catch any useful statistics either (that has been debated too at length here and elsewhere). Take this community forwards by bringing new ideas and new experiences, not rehashing the past. My .02c Mike

Hi All, As I am sure most of you know I am the moderator who deleted the original thread and I did explain why to the OP, Clearly we are not concerned with Porsche reputation, this is a design flaw for sure. But the fact is that we just rehash the same old stuff and I understand that the OP may be new to this but because he may not want to review the thousands of threads already on Rennlist about this subject does not mean we need yet another thread that tells us nothing new. I will let this thread stand and you guys can voice your opinion too make sure that we are all on the same page, please as always keep it civil and regardless, Welcome to Rennlist Micheal. I hope you will want to join our community but if not I wish you well with your projects..

Here on Rennlist, the #1 sticky on the 997 forum is an IMSB poll, and I think it's a good idea. This 996 forum is a completely disorganized collection of random IMSB rants that lacks any coherency . An organized poll like the 997 forum makes sense to me.

Fiero, first, thanks for your service. 2nd, as all of the above posters mentioned, this has been tried and failed multiple times. There is something called "adverse selection" that will skew the **** out of the information you are trying to gather. 1: there are lots of people who have 996's with engine issues that are not on these forums...I would bet everything I have that way more people ARE NOT on these forums than are. 2: if you HAVE had issues, it is very likely it was misdiagnosed as the catch all IMSB. 3: if neither of the first two points apply, and you had an issue, and started looking for 996 engine problems on the web, you would be funneled in the direction of IMSB, until you thought it was the only issue that could ever kill a 996, when that is not the case. On the whole, these are robust engines that have problems and design issues, like lots and lots of other engines by lots and lots of manufacturers. Finally, your last post (the one you referenced "calling all IMS issues, etc.," described the PO of your car as "having a problem, heard a noise, knew what the problem was and shut the engine off and sold it to you as having a failed IMS." Until you have the engine apart and can confirm that is the case, it is totally possible it's not even an IMS issue to begin with, but the interwebs will lead you to believe otherwise, as I previously mentioned. In summation, what you are trying to accomplish is impossible and non-productive regarding the IMSB information gathering. However, if you want to start another thread along the lines of "taking out flat 6, putting in LS3/7" I'm sure you will find a following of intrigued bystanders here. Good luck either way, DS

IMS is not the only cause of random engine failure in the M96.

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That thread was closed before I had the chance to respond to? I can't get on Forums at GOV computers while at work, I can read, just can't post. The person I bought the car from did have it towed to a Porsche dealer where the tranny was pulled ($1200}and he was given the broken stud and nut off the IMS and a quote of around $14k for a new engine. He like me is an USAF MSgt and could not afford that. He sold to me and here we are. I'm just NOT wanting to start a build thread on a site that seems maybe to be uninterested. Since this is the first Porsche forum I've tried, maybe I'm in the wrong place, Especially if Threads get deleted for such minor reasons.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/123957/2439147-dafuq-did-i-just-read-meme.jpg

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Rennlist is by far the most popular Porsche board. The 996 forum is very ploarized when it comes to the IMS bearing. Very few do their own wrenching and those that do, have limited knowledge on this, including me. Those that do know more are not too willing to share vital information because its their livelyhood and I fully inderstand that. However as times goes on, there will be more true gear heads buying and fixing these cars. When that happens, there will be a lot more good information sharing (like on the 928 or 944 forum for example). Sounds like you have the knowledge to do this work so go with your gut feeling and try to fix it. There is a lot of bickering going on this forum, too much drama not enough wrenching.

Fierofly, This site has a LOT of threads about IMS failure. Feel free to read and post in any of them. The one thing we don't need is YET ANOTHER IMS thread. As others have suggested you are not the first to have suffered an engine failure with the M96 engine which is in the Boxster, Cayman, 996 and 997 until the 2009 model year when the new 9A1 engine was fitted to all the cars except Turbos and GT models which still use a Mezger engine instead of the M96. So, I hope you will forgive us for not needing another IMS thread. Do use the "Search Function" and you'll be overwhelmed by the number of posts. It will also be useful since some of the failures of the M96 engine are NOT IMS bearing failures. There are other failure modes as well and your engine may have suffered one of those. Regards,

Bring on the build! Love posts like that one. The more of that the merrier. Welcome

!!!

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If this is really all you can see in this site, then you are better off somewhere else. Keep looking. Nobody here will miss you. If you're willing to take some time getting to know the site and the people who contribute to it, then you may change your mind and change your attitude. I hope that's the choice you make. Good luck.

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+1 Imo000, I really enjoyed your posts on the Canadian board about your rebuild. I learned a lot from your adventures. And I won't hold it against you that you are a 928 guy at heart! Cheers, TomF

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^^^^THIS^^^^

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Does that mean this infomercial is over??? This place is worse than late night cable TV...at least there the advertisers are required to identify themselves.

An LS3 is an awesome solution, but you wouldn't be the first to do it. Check out the following thread and watch the video. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...onversion.html Woo hoo! I just realized I can't wait for my motor to blow!

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By all means, insult all of us who have owned Porsches longer than 2 weeks, who have posted on here forever, and who have already read all we need to on IMS failures. It seems important to you, so we must all be idiots to not want a complete rehash. And I'd guess very few of us are interested in someone stuffing an LS3 in their 911. All we have is money and no sense.

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That is a very generalized comment for a group of Porsche owners of varying backgrounds, some are happy to work on their cars and some are happy to let someone else work on their cars, some are in between, no different than the owners of most other marque of automobiles. BTW, if you haven't found or it hasn't been mentioned, there is a very good thread relating to your engine situation, the IMSB on that engine didn't break but it was thought to be the cause of engine seizing, which turned out to be something else, but I'll warn you it's a long read! https://rennlist.com/forums/rennlist...-of-these.html

The OP stated that the dealer handed the PO the nut and stud off the IMSB after they pulled the trans. His IMSB definitely failed.

That $14000 quote for a new engine installed at a Porsche dealer sounds like a very good price!

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For $140K I'd go buy a new 991 Turbo!

Fierofly, write Porche of America a nice note, include all copies of the service done on that car, and ask them to replace the engine. You'd be surprised at what may happen. that's your first step. But yeah the topic is OLD and really we don't want the entire board dedicated to trying to solve something that's already been solved. BTW I updated my IMS and RMS and glad I did it. Where are you now on your project?

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seriously......OK I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. and yeah I'm not a gear head, I wish I knew more but I sure wouldn't want to learn from you. Also I am NOT made of money, just saved up forever to buy my dream car from my childhood. Your comments are insulting to the board and I hope we don't see much of you. Sounds like you just bought a 996 and didn't know what you bought until after you bought it, and want all the answers......good luck little boy and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Speak your minds guys. You all sound like I do now. Lots of Hurdi Gurdis haha. Tell him to bugger off. Putting a Chevrolet engine into a Porsche body. Is the man crazy or what? Ferdinand will be rolling over in his grave. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE.. what part of that statement does he not understand.

Well, it's his car, so he can do anything he wants with it. Remeber when folks were on your case with the decals? It's your car, so you can do anything you want with it, and I applaud the freedom of choice we all have with our own properties!!

So Porsche is now copying Hurdi?

And, to the OP: Relax, no one here is being hostile. Just IMSB weary. I say if you want to take on the project, go for it and have fun. You may find some of the tech posts/info more to your liking at Renntech.org, another great forum that most here also read.

I'd like to take this opportunity to propose a new thread on everyone's opinion of the best oil to use.

Oh, and by the way, Captain, US Navy (Retired). I spent 23 years (as an aviator, not a lawyer) defending your right to free speech, Master Sergeant. Feel free to exercise that right, just don't whine when others use it to disagree.

I never saw the OP's comments as whining. He didn't understand why this group of 996 owners had never undertaken an organized IMSB survey. I wonder too. Seems to me we have a handful of whiners here who want to control the content posted rather than let others post their relevant 996 experience. The very first sticky on the 997 board is an IMSB survey. Supposedly, the 997's have an improved IMSB, but the 997 board thinks the IMSB issue is worthy of being the number 1 sticky. Different logic dictates here though. And kattorney; that was a truly classless post to pull rank on an enlisted guy that way. You are probably alive today thanks to the skills of a guy like him.

Sorry if it came across as pulling rank. In the Navy, we have incredible respect for our Chiefs (equivalent to a Master Sergeant). Our Chiefs are the backbone of the Navy, and we simply couldn't operate without them. Calling someone a Chief in the Navy is not a sign of disrespect, and quite the opposite of pulling rank, it is a reminder of the special status of the position that person has earned. IMHO, complaining about having your freedom of speech rights violated on an Internet forum calls for a little reality check.

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WOW!!!! That's a very broad statement and completely inaccurate. You will find a wide variety of Porsche owners, racers, and wrenchers on this site. You know what we all have in common? We love Porsche's. Don't start out by polarizing yourself and making assumptions. Tell us about your build. We would be glad to read, listen, ask and assist in your progress.

Cefalu, there HAVE been IMS polls and surveys on the 996 forum before...(search is your friend.... https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...s-failure.html ) to that point, if you go through the 997's, you get a lot of bad information...there are plenty of guys with 997.2's on there reporting no IMS issues...well, that's because after 2009 it became a moot point...so the first thing you see there is a survey that might make them feel good, but it's full of bad data (i.e. anyone with a 997.2 that has posted a response...no disrespect to the 997 guys at all, just pointing out the obvious). No one is controlling content, they are just pointing out there is no reason to start a new thread about something that has already been done many many many many many times. DS

That poll lasted 2 weeks and took place back in 2009. It was not a meaningful source of information. Since this site is arguably the largest collection of 996 owners under one roof, it is probably the only place you could ever gather enough data to reach any kind of conclusion, besides Porsche themselves who have never released any statistics. So it's either here, or not at all. Of course a survey will be subject to errors, all you can do is design a survey that will attempt to minimize the errors. But just because you can't do it perfectly, does not mean you shouldn't try to do the best you can and see what you get. The problem I have with the IMSB info here is it is so disorganized. Sure you can do a search, but you could literally spend days going through the results. And I do feel some entitlement to this issue as I have been one of the handful of owners on this board to actually change their IMSB themselves. It's not an academic discussion to me.

So let's say you do a survey and get a bunch of responses - now what? What do you think you are going to do with that info? We all know there are problems and what the solutions are. Do we need a survey? Do you think PCNA will suddenly react due to your survey? You won't get anywhere with the data that you can't already get with a simple search, unless your goal is to scare prospective owners even more and drive the price of your car further down. The issue I have with the OP is his ridiculous insult of the people here who don't agree with him that this is critical. After 2 weeks of ownership I wouldn't exactly classify him as a qualified Porsche source like I do many of the other people who post helpful info here.

I agree with Cefalu. While it may not solve any issues, it centralizes something that I've seen many people ask for in my short time here. What does it hurt? Marc, can you sticky a Poll like on the 997 board?

An IMSB survey could not address solutions. It could only address how widespread IMSB failure's actually are. I believe the rate of IMSB failures is probably lower than than the hysteria here would lead a person to believe. If we have an actuary on the list, their input would help. Short of a statistician, the average Joe blowhard bellowing on is useless rambling.

Oh, and I do think that the OP, while he may have been missing a Porsche ascot around his neck, had a lot to bring to the table. I was looking forward to his M96 teardown and V8 swap. Let's not be delusional about the 996's. They have been relegated to 914 status, and being the faithful custodian of the 996 pedigree is not for everyone. I was particularly interested to see his perspective on the 996 as an aviation mechanic.

I would prefer a sub-forum for this. A poll doesn't do squat. Do you notice how many of us regulars are not chiming in? Its because this is so tiring......just so tiring. I fought posting but the devil on my left shoulder won. This thread will not end well......like most of these related threads.

I guess I'm just an idiot, but I'm lacking the point...what is this going to accomplish? I agree with LeftLane on this one, so you get a survey, and it has 1,000 participants, and it shows the result is somewhere between 5-10%....now what? PCNA will tell you too bad so sad, and we'll be right where we are today. DS

goodbye!

OK, so here is an idea, we can do 2 sticky threads, one is an IMS survey (data only) and the 2nd an IMS discussion thread. This would keep the forum a bit cleaner, thoughts?

Marc if you did that would any new IMS threads be moved into the sticky discussion thread? If so I would be in favor of this to keep the rest of the board clean.

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Ditto

I think that's a good idea Marc. I don't thnk we should discourage discussion on any Porsche-related topic, even those that are controversial. I have no issue at all with the original poster's desire to discuss the IMSB issue. He's new to the brand, new to the board and undertaking a major project. I actually find it interesting. My issues with the original poster are his belligerent attitude, his broad generalizations about our community and his unwillingness to make any effort to learn about what this community offers. Message boards like this exist because of the people who contribute to them. There is social etiquette when dealing with a group of people, even if those people are on an Internet forum. I'm not in favor of closing threads or trying to censor a contributor for wanting to discuss a Porsche-related issue. However, I am in favor of censoring a contributor who doesn't treat other members with respect or who argues in a disrespectful way with people who disagree with his or her position.

I think what's tiring for me about the topic is that there is simply no new information, and hasn't been for years (setting aside the odd new product). What is known about the problem would consume about ten lines in one of these posts. And. That's. It. Everything else - all of it - is just a futile rehash of the same outrage. There's simply nothing new to say. And for me, having a sticky thread for all this stuff doesn't solve the problem. It only institutionalizes it. Anyone wandering into this forum will look at that sticky and conclude that it's a dominant theme in 996 ownership... which is exactly the problem. My .02.

hey Fierofly! i don't think ANYBODY here gives a rat's obama if you post or not...just the same for me.....buy an engine from jake raby and put it in or go to G&W motorwerks and they can find you one (and make it a fire breather if you want)....so - either; Welcome and learn - or go pound sand

The 996 is like a beaten dog... That's the real issue. At this point it's super old news too. I have multiple friends with 996s and 986s who have no CLUE about any of this, don't read forums, don't read mags, don't care. They're a lot healthier and happier and their cars are fine (incl one friend with 120k on his Boxster driven year round since new). They sometimes ask "should I try to check out the forums?" And I say "NOOOoOoOOo" it's like reading about plane crashes if you're a frequent flier. And so the topics have been so beaten to death that even traditionally anti 996 mags like Evo and Total 911 have posted articles saying "hey now... Lets not keep beating this dog to the point where it's blown massively out of proportion" So what is a "sticky" or "survey" going to do? Either buy a 996 or don't. If you do you're basically STEALING a 911 so yeah, you're rolling the dice. Too bad. Don't like it? Well then pay 50-150% more for an older 993 or 200-300% more for a 997.2. Putting a Chevy engine in a 911 and saying that is the "fix" for a "stupid Porsche design flaw" um... Yah no. That's going to create the "ultimate 911"??? Ok whatever. Again... Either buy a 996 and roll the dice (such as it is... I don't think the gamble is even REMOTELY what the BS makes it out to be, but ok), or spend ACTUAL Porsche money on a newer or older car. Either way the horse is thoroughly beaten to death.

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One thing we can all agree on is we are weary of the IMSB discussions. But this issue isn't going away, ever. It's a design issue that can affect any 996. It is institutional already. there is a whole industry that lives off of it. Consider this, this is a public forum, open to anyone with a computer. It's not a private club where you can screen potential members to ensure they align with your opinions. And as the price of the 996's marches lower and lower, the more often you will be seeing guys the OP. That I can guarantee . There will be no end to it as long as there are 996's going to new owners. The very best you can hope for is to contain it in an agreed upon way. Simply saying I am tired of it, lets not discuss it anymore won't work, and is kicking the can down the road.

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That would be the plan!

Marc - pls don't move this thread to a sticky....

The IMSB sticky on the 997 board is close to 2 years old now and has a little over 500 votes. And I see that the Boxster board has a poll thread too that's only 2 weeks old. But, for whatever reason, there does not seem to be nearly the resistance on those forums as here.

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funny.

First let me apologize for offending people, was NOT my intent. After posting on so many different boards this was the first time I’ve ever had SOMEONE close one of my posts for reasons I’m still not understanding. Done deal, I’ll get over it. What upset me was I didn’t feel I had the time (wanting to start this build) to surf around the web to find the best Porsche site and this one came highly recommended. My original purpose was to try and find IMS tracking info to get a better understanding of where I was with this motor compared to others and maybe get some info on whether the original owner had any recourse with Porsche and to start a rebuild thread. The red flag went up when I had a post closed then I heard about people that thought their board was overcrowded with the same old info, then I worried if an LS swap would just get way too many flames. SO, if I didn’t already make too many enemies I’d like to ask for your help and advice and constructive comments and I know a little flaming on swapping out my 996 for a LS3 or 7 motor.

Sounds good FF, while I wouldn't make the swap myself I certainly look forward to seeing yours happen! I saw your new thread and will be reading...good luck!

Ease up guys. This is a newbie. We now know he had no new info to add to the debate. But cmon now. Do as you like with your car. I don't want a Ls engine in my car but to each his own.

I'm just happy the bean counter responsible for the cost cuting that lead to several quality issues across several Porsche models - the 996 included - and who was fired - is now having business troubles with his Pizza franchises... I'm not above gloating... Revenge of the 996... http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...or-pizza-pies/

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It would be great if the civility demonstrated on the 997 forum was also practiced here. Marc would probably not have to referee as many pis%^g contests.

Y'all are bearing a dead horse. We've moved past the issues here.