Gotta love the IMS scare tactics......

Sure there are reports of IMS failures in these cars but it is NOT something that has even a modicum of proof that the scale is so large and if the problem was so pervasive this would be happening on a scale that would be visible with or without the internet. Between internet hysteria and ad campaigns like "Tick Tick Boom!...Avoid a silent coutdown" it makes for good reading (detect sarcasm). Can't wait to see how long this thread goes Anyway....... Check out the new Excellence magazine where Bruce Anderson addresses the IMS "issue". "...Despite all the hype, IMS bearing failures have been fairly rare.......it is also possible to inspect intermediate shaft bearing condition BEFORE considering replacement........if your bearing is in good condition, removeing the grease seal at the ball bearing will improve cooling and lubrication of the bearing." So, while I agree that some cars experience IMS failures, and agree that LN/Flat 6 have a nice IMS bearing unit, it really should be considered and upgrade and not preventative. Time to sit back and see where this goes ps. 996GT3 30K miles, 996CAB 80K miles, 986 60K miles with no RMS issues EVER or any major issues to date. FYI....all cars driven hard and maintained with OCD type regularity (read hyper vigilant)

I never saw you as the baiting type, Dell. If a magic genie came and offered me three wishes, one of them would be that the community would lose interest in the topic, barring any real news. There is just nothing new left to say. 1. The design was a compromise, to save Porsche the cost of separate head castings for both sides of the motor. They were in a financial jam at the time. 2. They fail sometimes. Nobody knows how often, and likely never will. When they fail, it's expensive. 3. Whatever the numbers are, they have been insufficient to shame Porsche into a recall, in addition to which nobody has succeeded in certifying a class. We can therefore assume that the absolute numbers are pretty low, and/or the causes diffuse. 4. Nobody who buys a pre-owned 996 has any excuse for not knowing about this by now and choosing to accept the risk. 5. Upgrades to the components, like all mods, are a personal thing in terms of value for money. What is hardly debatable is that the upgrades are superior. The aftermarket doesn't have the cost targets that Porsche did. The aftermarket part is plainly overbuilt. The rest is all speculation, rehashed each time there's a new wave of owners. But is there anything else to say? I mean, really? Like every Porsche flat 6 ever made, the M96 is a flawed but stunning piece of engineering, IMO. Maybe I'm a big, stupid, gullible idiot, but I love mine. Can I have some of your popcorn?

Anything else to say? Not really. Just found it very interesting that we have seen recently the IMS hysteria go to new levels yet Bruce Anderson addressed it nicely, especially the part about being able to see the CONDITION of the bearing BEFORE making any decisions. I think the LN/Flat6 upgrade is really nice, but just that, an upgrade. It is not preventative as that would suggest they all will go BOOM (as some like to say) if not done. And by the way, I don't bait and never have. I'll tell it like it is but not a baiter. I'd share the popcorn but I only had one bag. I got it from Tim who is out resident popcorn popper. Tim? Tim? Are you there Tim????

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Prolly worth pointing out that the process of inspecting the bearings pretty much duplicates the labour cost for installing the retrofit, so the value judgement comes down to a few hundred bucks. Lord knows I've spent dumber money than that.

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Preaching to the choir as we ALL have spent stupid money on insane crap for these cars. The part about the inspecting the condition would be applicable during a clutch change, etc, when you are already in there and then can make the decision. I wouldn't bust it open just to inspect. If the bearing looks good, move on.

I try to stay out of these, but it has been a bit aggrivating that several potential buyers have asked me if I've done anything preventative for the IMS "issue". One buyer backed out after I though his deposit was already in the mail because he was convinced that he needed to spend $5k for the IMS / RMS upgrades (and clutch / flywheel while he was at it) to even drive the car without worries.

Is there butter on that popcorn? if so I will pop some without, I dont need it and it make my fingers smell funny......

Lets face it though, the M96 has some weak links that have lead to complete engine failure. But, the numbers are definitely smaller than the internet portrays and we all know this. The horse has been beaten........ Having the most reliable 911 motor made ('84-'89 3.2) in my car, I wouldnt hesitate buying another 996 if I were in the market. Of the MINOR "weak links" is the RMS. Its a friggin' seal. How many leaked bad enough to not drive? Highly doubt many at all, or did any of them? Dunno. If you have a 996, drive it, dont worry about it. Or, in the near future, I will take it off your hands so you can stop worrying about it . An '02+ silver or white on black please!

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Hey, I've got one of those! Not really for sale, but everything has a price!

If there is a hysteria out there, this forum is the one that built it.

Good god we are our own worst enemies! I guess that's what happens when you bring together a community of people who are all just a little bit worried about something, making that something bigger and darker and scarier. Feel good thread of the year!

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Hit the nail on the head. That's why there is such a vocal group of "drive the damn car, shut up, and enjoy it!" I know I do

during questioning by a 996 owner over the IMS issue at the annual Porsche shareholders meetings in 2008, the CEO of Porsche told all assembled what he thought of the issue. (None of this is true, but sounded about right)

I totally agree that a thorough inspection of the bearing with seal removal is the only way to go if someone wants added insurance while retaining the stock bearing.. We were saying that for years prior to having the ability to extract and replace bearings with a higher performance component. Most Porsche shops have been doing this when upgrading the IMS seal flange as it takes 30 seconds and allows the bearing to have the same lubrication as the engine. Removing the seal will not create a cure for a bearing that is already worn or failing as it's tolerances have already been impacted. The IMS hysteria was rampant WAAYYY before we had these components or processes available. The constant desires for a "fix" and the requests for it was why we spent the time and money to develop it. Porsche shops begged for this over and over again because so many engines were caught early on with failures but could not be repaired due to a total lack of processes and components. Like I said yesterday, having the ability for this debate/complaint to be posted or even exist speaks volumes for the successes of the developments that my company and LN Engineering share. I'll take a few complaints and heated threads as long as we can maintain the huge positive reviews from those who have used our technology and components to save their engines that had issues or impending issues with symptoms. This time last year such a thread didn't exist.. The threads then had content like "Can I change the IMS bearing before it fails" or "My IMS bearing is failing and Porsche says I need a new engine, because it can't be fixed". Forum members should remember that and be a little less critical of vendors, because those being critical just might have a reason to use the technology themselves to save thousands of dollars. (should they experience unfortunate occurrences and become a statistic) We have had some instances where people have falsely advertised cars for sale that supposedly had bearings installed that did not. Every unit I have sold or installed has been serialized and we are now providing a door pillar decal that states the vehicle has been subject to the IMSR procedure that will have the vehicle VIN and the IMSR serial number that will be matched to our records for validity. I do the same things with my engines and always have, keeps everyone honest. I'll maintain that no one needs to apply this technology as a preventive, they can use it as a "fix" when their IMS bearing does fail (if it fails). The only thing thats required is being quick with the ignition key and not running the engine at all after it exhibits the symptoms that have historically surrounded this failure. If the engine is shut off fast enough after the symptoms show up the majority of cars can be saved. I am working on a large directive regarding these symptoms and the actions that should occur when they present themselves. Other than all that, drive the car and enjoy it... Thats what I did with my M96 powered cars before the technology was available.

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One day.... I will never sell my '87 though.

Jake, I agree 100% with what you just said. However, the largest complaints I hear about you is (1) you don't sponsor this site yet constantly tout your products/services. Don't you think it's time to step up?; and (2) Your ad campaign just creates a false reality that drives the hysteria. Other than that, I think you have a great upgrade/replacement product and service. Just support the community that you sell you product to and tone down the hysterical ads and I think you would have a much better response. You don't see LN engineering get the type of comments you do.

Thanks. Being a vendor and enthusiast is hard to do. Wanting to share information on forums like this, even as an individual is also hard to do when people know who you are. Posts like my last one never mentioned the name of my company, and no one knew who I was... Thats what I try to do, but its hard. As far as stepping up, well I have talked to the admins here a couple of times about this and told them that the current packages they had for suport didn't make sense for me because we have a very small focus and work on specifically the M96 engine without working with any other venues that Rennlist supports.. The person I talked to told me that others had the same complaints and they were working on a package to fit more specialized companies like my own. The last I heard they were working on a package like this, but I didn't explore it further.. I will. I disagree.. The ad is strong but is just pointing out the hysteria that we deal with daily with emails and phone calls concerning engine failures that have stemmed from the 19 different modes of failure that the range of M96 engines have had and we have documented. Today I have 4 messages to retur from those with failures, these have came in since 0830 this morning and they range from two possible IMS failures to a cylinder failure and a cracked head. Thats one day thats not even over yet. I am old fashioned and believe the truth never hurts anyone/ anything. I don't candy coat or even sugar coat the realities associated with anything, a select few that still exist like me appreciate this quality. Others find it harsh and abrasive, but its direct and doesn't leave much to question and thats what really matters. If more people got the direct story instead of the story they "want to hear" things would be a lot different. Thank you. Hopefully you'll never have to call me! I am a member of that community. I have owned a Porsche every day of my life since the age of 12! I drove one to work today and my wife will be shooting to set a Land Speed record in it in two weeks! We do what we do, as well as we do it because this is a life revolving around being mechanically effective.. You'll really like the next round of ads that starts in two months.. This round was just to get people's attention and based on your post it has been effective :-) The next round is just plain cool! Nope.. Thats probably because Charles is much more passive than I am and has a totally different personality... These days being direct is just as bad as being politically incorrect, no one knows how to react! OK, so lets try to stay on topic.. I'll try to get some answers from Rennlist about sponsorship and we'll go from there..

Thanks, Jake! That really is the missing link.

At least one of the people that called us this week cost themselves an engine by trying to drive the car home to avoid a tow bill.. Thats not happening! When the symptoms present themselves the events that follow in the next couple of minutes are very important..

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Jake, are these symptoms listed on your website? I'd like to know what they are. LVdell, I agree with you. And being the **** engineer I am, I researched out all the major shortcomings of the 996/997 before I bought. I learned about the IMS by just browsing the internet. If the occurrences were so small, I don't think the magnitude of internet responses to it would have be as large as it is. Has it been blown out of proportion? Probably, like most things the internet produces. But, the fact remains that many engines have fallen victim of this. Someone mentioned cost savings on this. IMO, no cost savings measure should impact engine survival. Save cost on the exhaust system, or intake, or something easily swapped by the customer if it's that big of a deal to save money, NOT by something which will destroy a certain number of engines when it goes wrong! That's just ludicrous. I'm also one of the new P-car owners you spoke of, but am not upset, ranting, or complaining about the P-car. I knew the risks of this engine going into it, and I'm just going to drive it like a P-car was intended to be driven, enjoy it, and pray to God that it doesn't happen to me. It's an exquisite piece of machinery, and I'll probably be a P-car owner forever more. And Jake, I appreciate you taking the time to frequent these discussions and give you're input. You don't tote your biz in these posts, push your product, or give doomsday advice that every M96 has to have your product or it will die. You just tell it like it is based on what you see each and every day. Mania or not, if it weren't for these discussions, nothing would be known. Anyway, being a new P-car owner I try to not be obnoxious or 'green' on this forum, and have been pleased that you all are so down to earth. There is a 'snob factor' that surrounds certain cars; you should here the pokes and prods I get around here at work. But that's ok, I'M the one in the P-car having a good time.

Just like the Obama offensive. Create fear to sell a fix that is not needed. Jake. Of the 200,000+ M96 engines out there, how many have you seen with a blown engine caused by the bearing?

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The number of M96s should be higher than 200K... While I do see lots of failures the IMS bearing is just one of the things that takes them out.. There are 19 other modes of failure, some of which are diagnosed incorrectly as the IMS.. The number that you asked me for would be in the dozens between core engines I have picked up to build, engines that come in to be built and etc. Lots of the exposure I have to the IMS failures comes from dealing with other shops who purchase our support to help take care of their customers. Because of this I see a ton of pics and have a lot of failed parts shipped in to us for evaluation. The numbers that we are exposed to are exploding because people are learning more about the programinstead of just listening to the dealership and buying a new engine. More and more dealerships are recognizing the technology and are buying the IMSR kit to apply as both a preventive as well as a "fix". We never expected that, but it is occurring... I alos never imagined that Porsche Dealership techs would be calling us looking for advice, buts thats already happened twice this week as well :-)

Odd, am I the only one that is thankful that this type of repair is available? What's the alternative? Sinking 20K into a car whose resale is potentially equal or not that much more than that engine replacement bill? I don't know about every person here, but I certainly am not rich enough to throw this kind of cash at a car. I like to enjoy the car, but if it's within my power to avoid such a catastrophe, i rather undertake it the first chance I get. Otherwise, why the hell do we do oil changes, or coolant flushes, or maintain a car anyway? I know when I heard that dreaded noise that sounded like a box of marbles rattling around in a metal can, I was almost going to throw up. My car has 90k miles so its not worth much more and imagine a potential scenario of just throwing the car away. We're not talking about 2K new crate GM engines that we can pick up at Autozone.

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Having this alternative is great IF you have a bad bearing, but let's not try to scare people into getting the fix, whether is costs $100 or $1,000, when the risk of failure is less than you having a heart attack tonight.

Its funny that you mention a Heart attack.. Because the IMS bearing is much like a heart attack as it has the same symptoms over and over again no matter who its happening to. The events that happen immediately after the symptoms first present themselves with the IMS bearing are critical.. And then you have those instances where there are no noises, there are no oil leakages and then all of a sudden the engine has a massive heart attack while cruising down the road and it expires. These are the engines we can't save with a "fix" because they have primary and secondary failures due to the altered (retarded) cam timing that collides valves into pistons. Oil contamination is another form of secondary failure and too many times the schrapnel that comes from the primary bearing failure also takes out scavenge pumps, main bearings, the oil pump and every other lubricated component. In these cases the remains of the bearing can be extracted and a new bearing installed but the secondary failures will have already impacted the engine adversely... Lots of this is related to how lucky you are... People that have luck hear the noises and see the leaks first. Neither of the two people I talked to on my way home tonight were that lucky.

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Ok... so what oil would you recommend.... Sorry couldnt resist. Seriously though, glad to have options. Thanks!

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I'm Canadian. If my engine goes, it will cost me $20,000. If I have a heart attack, it's free. (Joke. Just having fun. Don't lock and load on me.)

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That was funny!!! Just what this thread needed.

Thanks Jake for your continued work on these issues. I've been a RL member and supporter for as long as any of you guys and when I see replies that remind me of honda-tech and the like, it's very irritating. I see Jake sharing info, not on a marketing soap box. If you disagree you're entitled to that, but if you don't have the knowledge to argue, then leave it alone.

Of all the friends I have who have 996 "family" engines all but one, yes one, have had massive failures. Of all the people I know who have (or had) air cooled cars...NO massive failures. Repairs...hell yeah...they are OLD cars. I went ahead and rebuilt my '88 at 165,000 miles b/c of worn valve guides, but other than that the car engine was in great shape. Of course you can criticize the '74-'77 cars but, again, I don't think the complaints about them are overblown either. Jake Raby is responding to a need in the market, simple as that...in fact his company is about the only reason I keep a 996 as a possible next "toy" car.

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Fortunately for us, you have only had one friend with an M96.

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+1 I appreciate what Jake is doing and sharing with us. And I agree with Jyoteen too, I don't have money to toss around, and if I can spend a little to prevent such a catastrophe, I will. Like he said, we spend big bucks on oil changes, coolant flushes, brake flushes, etc. What's a little more for a bearing that you only have to do once. Will I replace everything because everything COULD brake? No, because there's no precedent for everything to break, but there is a precedent surrounding the IMS.

Based on your statistics none of us "water-cooled" people should have a factory original motor anymore! Some of you "air-cooled" guys are priceless in the defense of the "superiority" of your older cars! Pete

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What he said +1 That's that great thing about a quasi socialist regime, we still have the illusion of choice.

Well I dont' think it's mass hysteria for those of us that actually own and drive these cars. However, $15k for a new engine IF you happen to be one of the unlucky bastards whose M96 grenades, does warrant some discussions. How many people do you know who have had massive allergic reactions to a medication, where all their skin sloughs off and they nearly die? Yet the law requires every single patient to be warned of this possibility before they take a new medicine. Common? No. Possible? Yes. Are we creating mass hysteria by doing so? You tell me. How much money do we all spend on car insurance over the years? Yet how many times have you actually used it? Once or twice? That's what this is...insurance...except this insurance might actually increase your resale value.

+1 to that, brutha brutha.

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Well said, keep up the good work Jake.

Dell you are a "Master Baiter" for starting this thread!!

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I can back this up. I inquired about becoming a sponsor and was quoted $600 a month. Jake is a great source of information and is an asset to this site regardless.

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Not really. Just would prefer to finally see a thread discussing more realistically what the IMS bearing replacement is and what it can do. Jake has been more forthright in this thread than I have seen in a long time. Just a means to address some of the issue brought up by Bruce in the Excellence article. Nobody has said Jake is NOT an asset NOR that is doing work that is going to be wasted or not a benefit to this community. It's just important to understand that these cars will NOT fail from IMS issues but rather it's a rare occurrence relative to production numbers and there is an upgrade option available. If you feel the need to upgrade your IMS bearing then Jake has a fantastic option for you and does great work. But to feel that it is preventative is wrong. Agreed. Great wealth of information and what I would hope has happened here. I was able to explain to Jake rationally and adult like why his posts and comments spark controversy. He understood and explained why he comes across as he does. Further, I agree that $600 a month to support the site for a service seems a bit over the top. A basic $18 a year membership though would go a long way for his cause.

I too am grateful that Jake and Charles developed solutions to the M96's week points. I also am glad that Jake is active on this forum to explain the more intricate details of why these motors go bad and how his solutions address them. As far as the debate if the IMS bearing is an upgrade or preventative, it all depends on your point of view. When I am due for a clutch, there will be very serious consideration to do the Jake's kit when the trans axle is out of the car. It's a reasonable cost (as compared to a motor replacement/rebuild) and as inexpensive as our resale values are, I'd like to avoid having my car be considered a throw away. Especially, considering how low mileage my car has for it's age. As with any topic, more information available is better than less. I think most of us can filter out marketing hype and what is reasonable. While it is true, that without real failure numbers, it is much more difficult to asses whether the failure rate is high enough to necessitate the bearing replacement independently. Just take the other parts of the known equation of the relative low cost of the kit and procedure if you're already going to have the trans axle separated from the engine for some other reason (clutch replacement, RMS) and make your own evaluation for what is right for your own personal risk assesment. I have always been a proponent of replacing any part with a better one if the opportunity arises. It's an unfortunate affliction that usually takes me down a path of modification of all my vehicles but, I've never been let down on changing something to a better or stronger part. Being that my car is a 99 and more publicly lambasted as a problem year, I'm leaning more towards doing the procedure if I've already got an issue that requires trans axle separation from the motor for 2 reasons, to help retain it's perceived value and for piece of mind. With that being said, my motor and car for that matter have been pretty good in the time that I've had it. It's bone dry and running well (knock on wood) but, it's got relatively low miles (40K). My 2 cents adjusted for inflation,

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Not really as that is totally subjective. We know that while the IMS bearing could have been engineered better, it's not something that is as bad as thought but could be made better with a nice upgrade offered by people like Flat6 and LN. The analogy I would give you as what it meant by preventative. If you eat a diet high in fat, your doc will tell you that you will almost positively die of heart disease from clogged arteries and as a PREVENTATIVE measure that you should understand that you arteries and heart will last a long time and run their natural course if you eat a proper diet. Your ticker will not succumb to this early demise but can in a rare occurrence.

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LOL, that's what I meant. It's subjective and up to the individuals personal perspective to decide whether they want to do the IMS kit or not.. I need to drink my coffee before I post.

hehehe Totally understand the coffee thing. You can tell when I post sans coffee

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I would say that it is "impossible" in this format (the internet) to asses whether the failure rate is high enough to necessitate the bearing replacement. This is why I asked Jake in another thread: of all the IMS replacements he has completed, what percentage actually showed enough degradation for the replacement to have been deemed necessary? 1%, 10%, 20%? He declined to answer with a specific number. That said, I suspect Porsche is the only one that can really answer this question and I doubt that anything less than a class action law suit would ever get them to release those figures. Absent these numbers we are left with nothing but anecdotal tales of woe and what looks like good information coming from a knowledgeable but very interested party. Neither should be enough for most informed consumers to justify spending almost $1,500-2,000 for the procedure-but stranger things have happened in the open marketplace. Considering other issues like resale, peace of mind for the more risk averse, or offsetting costs by combining the procedure with other repairs may tilt the buying decision in the other direction for some consumers-me included.

My observations only........... I have asked no less than 16 different Porsche dealers in various states - Maryland, Virginia, New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, California and Georgia about the percentage of cars they estimate have the IMS issue. Not a real intense survey mind you, but across the country, and good enough with my experience of owning German autos - Owned Porsches for over 15 years (993C2/996 C4S)...multiple BMWs for 13 and working on Mercedes for over 20 years....and working with German companies for 12 years and knowing their attitudes on admitting or handling any failures in a proactive manner (not)............ It appears from the responses of the service techs that actually work on these cars who I have asked that the number is about 30 % conservatively speaking that are effected, that are worked on. That number is way too high for a car that costs what it costs and is reputed to be excellence in engineering.... One possibility that the issue has not been publicized, to the extent it deserves, is that: 1) People don't like to admit they made a $ 80,000 purchase mistake due to their fragile egos. 2) Some people don't care and have had their short term Porsche fix, especially the demographics of the 996 crowd......posers 3) People don't care to fix the problem....once diagnosed...it's only an oil leak mentality.... 4) Porsche didn't deal with the issue unless it came up and worked through the issue for 10 years....bad PR avoided at every turn.... 5) Porsche nuts like myself, go ahead and spend the money to fix the car because they love it, when it runs right....and accept the issue as there is not a perfect car made..... 6) German "culture" in business may reflect that they "might not be right on an issue, but they are never wrong" - based on 12 years ofd working with German companies - They really go to any length to not admit any flaws in products until the new improved models came out..."product is within specs" attitude - what could be wrong? The IMS/RMS failure happened to me 3 times within 80,000 miles with my C4S. 80,000 is not a ton of miles......there were lots of good things also - never failed to start, original brakes lasted over 80K, drove great, etc... I wanted to believe that Porsche would not put such a flawed product on the road with 3 out of 10 cars having the issue by this informal survey........ The new 997.2, without the IMS in the design, deals with the flaw once and for all and hopefully there will not be another issue that polarizes disappointed owners for another 10 years... All this said......I still own a Porsche(993) and probably always will................I also own a Mercedes SL, so I guess I am ready to be committed..........

Put me down for number 5. What a lot of people have a hard time accepting is that low volume cars are always potential quality nightmares to one degree or other. A company that produces 150,000 or so units a year like Porsche does lacks the buying power or amortization capacity of a company that sells 1.5 million, the way BMW does. Who, in turn, lack the resources of Toyota, who sell 15 million a year (round numbers for rhetorical purposes, but close to accurate). The most expensive cars aren't the best. They're just the most interesting. I just sold my Range Rover, because it was a little bit TOO interesting. Riding around in a tow truck is fun, the first few times. My 996 is bomb proof by comparison, IMS or no.

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Did you ask them how many of these cars their dealership had sold? Do you think a service tech in the back of the shop has a firm grasp of how many of these cars have been delivered? I have a close relative in my family who is the Service Director at a Porsche dealership. He is involved in meetings with both the front of the store and the back and I can tell you he would dispute your figures for outright engine failures (not RMS failures mind you, but engine failures from IMS, D chunk, etc). Additionally, from his perspective the overall reliablility of these engine has not been a constant as Porsche has consistently improved over the years. In other words, the problem rates for a '99 are much different than an '04 (and the 997.1's continued to improve). He would not say the rate is zero mind you, just not even close to 30%. So who's right my SD or your Tech's? Statistically speaking both sets of info are anecdodal. In other words, they are little more than statistical garbage and should be viewed as such. I have another buddy who knows the gents at LN Engineering and the work they have been doing on the IMS bearings. I just had my clutch replaced and I decided to have the LN bearings installed on my 996 while they had the clutch out as a prophylactic measure to guard against future problems. The good news is that the new clutch and bearing are in and the repair went smoothly. The bad news (and I suspect the message behind Dell's post) is that when they examined my IMS bearing after pulling it it looks to be in excellent condition and had very little wear. In other words I just replaced a perfectly functional part at some additional expense to me. The car is done, but I can't pick it up for two weeks (I'm out of town). When I get it up I'll post some pics of the bearing.

An '02+ silver or white on black please! How about an 02+ Black on Black? I'm in no rush to sell mine, but I'll want a 997 at some point

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I think you're lumping in the RMS issues (more of a nuisance) with the IMS bearing failure (more devastating). I would believe that 30% of M96 engine suffered from RMS leaks with the first few seal designs, but that has tapered off dramatically since '07 with a more effective design being retrofitted into affected cars. But 30% for IMS failures? Hard to believe as 3 out of 10 vehicles in for service on any particular day at the dealerships would be getting an engine replaced.

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Agreed. 30% of every M96 engine ever made would be nearly 100,000 motors. That's over four years worth of 911 production. I have to believe it would be pretty hard to keep that quiet. The number is unknowable. Funny how folks just can't get past that.

The results of a sample survey of Porsche service centers in no way gives any indication of what percentage of M96 engines have an IMS problem or any other problem for that matter. Other than for regular maintenance, why would a Porsche be at the center, anyway? 3 local dealers and 1 race shop spoecializing in Porsche rebuids here have seen one IMS problem in all the M96 engines they have serviced out of an estimated 400 cars. I guess than can mean that only 1 in 400 M96 engines, or 1/4%, have an IMS problem? More false information and fear mongering.

+1 Exactly!!!!!!

Is it safe to say 996/986 that made it pass 80k miles would be "save" from the IMS issue? From my observation, seems like cars with low mileage will have greater chance seeing this problem (e.g. MY99 with 40k miles).

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People will tell you yes. People will tell you no. Neither one knows what they're talking about.

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no truer words were ever spoken.

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Except for mine, soverystout: "It might, Stuttgart1, or it might not." Right or wrong, everyone's opinions are what make the world go round.

FWIW- I have changed two bearings this week so far.. One came from an 02 Boxster S and was single row with 70K miles.. It had normal bearing play at 70K but had some tight spots when rotated. When I cut into it for the normal autopsy the rollers had started to park in the races. When I pulled this bearing the IMS tube was 2/3 full of oil that had already started to leak past the bearing. The Owner of this car drove it to my facility from New Jersey for the procedure as a preventive and he made a wise decision. The second came from an 01 Boxster S and (rual row bearing) it had 81K miles and was in perfect condition without any issues what so ever. The IMS tube associated with this bearing only had a shot glass of oil become released after it was removed, which is about normal for an engine that had no imminet IMS bearing issues. This engine came in on the back of a truck for the procedure and the owner of it watched me complete the procedure in total amazement since he's worked on Porsches for 30 years. I have cut both bearings apart, I'll post some pics tomorrow if my assembly procedures go as planned tomorrow morning. So far only one IMS failure call this week.

Great thread guys... I am in the process of looking for a 2000+ 996 and this helps me make better decisions.

Looking forward to the pics Jake.

Not to sound completely retarded, I understand you can check the flywheel side bearing of the IMS, but what about the other end? Is it a sealed bearing or what? I haven't ever seen one of these engines apart or a cross section or whatever. What's the deal on the other end?

I'll post pics of "the other end" tomorrow.. There is literally nothing there.. The IMS rides in a bore thats part of the front console that houses the oil pump and oil/coolant circuits. There are no bearings (plain or roller) on the other end of the IMS.. When the bearing surface wears out the front console is replaced. That end of the IMS has only the load from the 4-6 cylinder bank, it does not have the drive and distribution loads of the roller bearing end of the IMS.

Thanks Jake!

I can't find the subscribe button, so I'll ask a few questions. I'll need a clutch eventually, so: 1) Can the bearing seal be removed easily, with removing the bearing itself? 2) Can the bearing be inspected thoroughly without removing it? Thanks Jake - despite the controversy I am glad that you're pushing the tech development on these motors. I don't imagine Porsche will be doing so, so it's up to guys like you. I for one love everything about my M96, except for the spectre of death. I hope to be driving M96 up to the very end and with help from people like you I might just be able to do that. Pseudo data point: I have a *lot* of friends (PCA members are friends right) running these engines (Boxsters included of course) and so far I have seen only one proper IMS failure. I guess we should count my own car which had a reman engine installed in 2005...the records are fuzzy but IMS failure is indicated. I won't count the one car I looked at which had a reman as well since I have no idea why. Other than those, we don't hear about all that many failures around here. Anyway - my plan, depending on the answer to my questions is to inspect my own bearing, remove the seal, and/or spend the $1K (pphht! chump change for a Porsche) and fit your kit...when I do the clutch that is. Thanks

The bearing can be inspected by simply "parking" the engine @ TDC, removing the chain tensioners and the IMS bearing flange. The tensioners must be pulled or the IMS will have no support and will become off center in the engine making reassembly more difficult. Once the flange is removed the bearing can be checked for play/ wear and tight spots that indicate the races/ rollers are beginning to fail. At the same time the outer grease seal can be removed to allow the engine's lubricant to reach the bearing to more thoroughly lubricate it.

Jake, Can you see any reason at all that Porsche would use a sealed bearing? Were they fearful that contaminants in the oil would prematurely destroy the bearing? Any motor oil that suffered some fuel dilution (today's DI motors) or other contaminants would most likely not provide the quality of lubrication that a bearing under such tremnedous load would need. Your thoughts?

None what so ever.. Neither can any of the bearing Engineers that have assisted us with the understanding of these failures. Who knows.. They did the same thing to the transaxle bearings that are also failing in the same fashion. Any contaminant that would take out this bearing would have also killed any other bearing within the engine.. Makes zero sense to anyone that I have shared the information with. These contaminants don't create issues for any other aspect of the engine. Your thoughts?

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My question as well. I am still CPO�d, but curious to know for the future.

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As they say, dirty oil is better than no oil! So, yes, it was a bone-headed move to use sealed bearing.

So do the IMS bearings sometimes leak and then run dry? With the bearing seals in place, I'm assuming the engine oil is not able to seep in and lubricate? Does the bolt break off as the bearing is run dry and has increased clearances? < On a related note - I recently stumbled across an engine with a much higher fatality rate. Basically 100%. The late '90s SHOs had the cam lobes and gears that were pressed onto the cam. By 45-75k, the gears start failing like crazy. Ford abandoned owners after the 36/30k warranty. Only solution is to have them welded or pinned(known by few). $12k to replace. Cosworth designed the block, Yamaha the head. > JimB

FWiW.. My 05 997 has the engine replaced due to IMS...while at the dealer waiting for the car two others were having their engines replaced for the same reasons. Three huge crates in the back of the garage. Its a small delaership with I think only 4 bays. Not a scare but not quite an isolated problem.

Everyone knows that 997's fail way more often than 996's!!!!!!!!! (Just a joke, just a joke!!!!!) Pete

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My first new car was a 99 SHO (I know, what was I thinking). I got into a lemon law suit with ford over everything but the engine. Trans blew at 12K, tie rods, ball joints, steering column etc etc. got a check from Ford for my issues and traded in the SHO on a new Honda Prelude the next day.

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My friend experienced that on his. He said the camshaft snapped in half but he never tore it down to see what really happened. Sounds like what you said.

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This is why I think we should encourage the aftermarket. If Porsche walks away from supporting the M96, it won't be the first time they abandoned a bad engine. I'd rather make Jake Raby and Charles Navarro rich than end up with a boat anchor in my driveway.

We had the forethought to begin the development of the M96 program several years ago... Back when people said we were stupid for working with the engines because factory replacements were so cheap... That forethought is how we advanced beyond everyonbe else by light years. BTW- Guess what?? The bank 4-6 IMS output sprocket is pressed on in ALL M96 engines and they dislodge retarding valve timing and wasting engines... I permanently solve this deficiency with every engine I build. BTW_ The forum went wild and posted my reply in triplicate! Sorry

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Guys, don't forget that the gears in all of our Pcar's gearboxes are pressed onto the mainshaft, they're not on splines. That's why you need an 80 ton press to (correctly) rebuild a G96/97 As to cams and crankshafts, it's quite common on large engines to have their cranks presses together. It's still hard for me to believe they can stand up to the torque, but they can. Well, everyones but Ford's.

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I'm the least mechanically inclined person I know, but I wonder how much is achieved by removing the seal alone? Particularly for a lower mileage motor that otherwise exhibits no other signs of excessive bearing wear (knowing that it is at best only a partial measure).

Removing the seal exposes the bearing to better lubrication achieved with the engine's oil.. The permanent lubrication inside the sealed bearing is only good for XXX hours of service. Removing the seal will not perform a miracle, it will simply (hopefully) extend the life of a bearing that has already seen a degradation in the permanent lubrication... The amount of time it will add to the bearing is unknown and dependant upon the bearing in question.

Interesting I would see this thread today... My car is going in for a repair tomorrow. What repair that is right now, is unclear. It is weeping oil from the area of the RMS, leaving a small puddle on the floor after sitting for 1 week. Could be the IMS too... I guess they won't know till they open it up. I have 35K miles on the car and it's supercharged. I am for sure doing a new clutch as I've still got the stock clutch in there (Spec 2+), a LWFW (Spec), and both the RMS and IMS seals to cure whatever is causing the weeping. I've had the RMS leak before and this is much more than the drip I had previously seen. The debate I'm having with myself now is to have this IMS retrofit part installed, or just have the techs (local dealer is doing this work) inspect the IMS, remove the front seal for extra lube, and leave it be if checks out okay? I have been doing several DE's a year for the past 2 years now. Thoughts?

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My thought (FWIW) is that you should inspect the bearing and if ok, then remove the seal. I also think you should photodocument the work (just a couple of snaps) for this thread. Good luck.

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Trust what this man says. I recently just opened up my trans to rebuild and it uses the same type of sealed bearings as the IMS. They are sealed, the original lube bakes off and the bearing grinds itself down. All the bearings in my 996 trans suffered from this. Having removed their seal early in life would have provided them with a constant flow of fresh lube. Jake, thanks for trying to help Taylor with my trans. Paul

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What?!?!?! Are you serious? Sealed bearings in a manual trans? Manual trans bearings take all kind of different loads, different from just the IMS taking only one load direction. What the hell has happened to Porsche? Sealed bearings are reserved for pulleys and fans......

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This is obviously sensible. But, me, if I was going to go to all the trouble to get at those bearings, I'd go the extra mile and put something superior in their place rather than just confirm that they're 'good enough'.

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I agree. What it comes down to (for me) is that when my CPO expires in 2011 I want to have a little more insurance with my engine. I don't believe any scare tactics are involved at all. If I go out of CPO and my engine blows (not saying it will of course) it's: bye bye so long game over wifey uses her "idiot" look to penetrate my skull causing my untimely demise oh and..... I have a 3,000lb silver turd in my garage. I'll take the bearing thanks.

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Yep, what the man says is true: sealed (Brazilian) bearings in the trans. I've heard folks say to removed the seals when you do a rebuild, but I talked to a rebuild shop who said that the trans wasn't designed to properly splash/lube the bearings with grear oil, and so leaving them sealed is best. Regardless, almost all trans bearings will loose their grease due to heat buildup, it'll spooge out, and collect at the bottom of the trans. Next time you do a transaxle oil change, stick your finger in the drain hole and towards the front; you'll run into the magnet with some metal particulate, AND gobs of grease that has collected. Not so good.

A ceramic hybriod bearing set for the tranny is now being developed as well...

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Brazilian bearings........need I say more. Mine better be German made if I use them!

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I have an early-'05 C2, so in terms of the IMS, technically still a 996, also under CPO until 2011. Currently I have 22K mi, and I drive about 6-7K/yr. Absolute worst-case scenario if I had to replace the engine on my dime, it would cost me the difference I would've paid for an '06 if I'd known about the '05 IMS. However, I plan to purchase another extended warranty to dovetail with the expiration of CPO (some warranties have a 30-day waiting period before the coverage kicks in). Even before learning of the IMS issue I still planned to go for an extended warranty past the CPO term. This is my 1st Porsche but I've had 6 BMWs and 3 M-Bs (still have one) and while none have needed a $15K engine job, each one of them racked up at least that much in various repairs that were paid for by the extended warranty--without a struggle, I might add. In no case have I not gotten back at least twice what I paid. I would never own one of these cars without the most extensive warranty I can buy. (Just got one for an '03 E-class that just went off the first 3-yr extended warranty. I got what's called an "exclusionary" warranty, which covers everything that isn't on a short list of excluded items, because that car has the brake-by-wire gizmo and 14 on-board CPUs and the typical named-peril warranty is inadequate). The thing about the extended warranties is if you read in the [not so] fine print, they cover OEM installed equipment, and most if not all would have grounds to deny a claim if the car has been modified with non-original parts such as an aftermarket retrofit.

Welcome to Rennlist Palm. I don't think the problem went away with the 06 model did it?

We recently had an aftermarket warranty company pay us to apply an IMS retrofit to a Boxster with an impending IMS bearing failure. Porsche dealerships are also looking to this technology to repair engines that have IMS issues that have not scattered parts as of yet. I just completed an invasive diagnostic of one of the cars that came into us last week with an IMS failure that had been diagnosed by a Porsche dealership. The failure was not the IMS bearing, but rather another occurrence of the IMS tensioner paddle and it's plastic tensioner wear pad failing as a primary failure. The secondary failure was valve timing changes that collided the valves into the pistons. More on this one later when I have the failure report logged and fully documented. The moral of the story is that lots of IMS failures aren't IMS failures. the IMS gets the blame because thats just the easiest thing for people to do. This failure is worse than the IMS, because this tensioer can't be removed to allow any preventive to be applied.

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Not sure if this is repost http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxV4XRTLBKY The bearings have plastic inside too! WTF???

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I still think I'd rather not do the retrofit proactively, and put the money instead into extended warranty because as you say, IMS is only one [of about what? a dozen?] potentially expensive failure to which the engine is susceptible. Not to mention the gearbox, A/C, starter/alternator, ABS, etc, etc, that can all go haywire and cost a fortune to repair, whether they're a one-time huge sum like an engine, or a series of $1000-2000 repairs that ultimately add up. But it's good to know your retrofit is gaining acceptance and could become an option under warranty coverage if I would need it, assuming I would be lucky enough to catch the problem before terminal damage occurs. Having survived something that has a better than 50% mortality rate myself, I no longer lose sleep over things like whether my car engine will someday fail. The best things in life...aren't things .

This one is sitting on the lift right now.. The engine was being pulled when I walked by and did a quick inspection.. I found the "Money shot" that took this one out quickly.. What you see at the crack in the bellhouse is the broken IMS spindle and nut. This shears off when the bearing seizes. See the circled portion of the image. The is what we'll see when we separate the engine from the tranny

Scary photos! Jake, I don't have a background in AE but I do have a background in metallurgy, so this all interests me (though I wish it was purely academic vs having one of these engines ). Looking at the photos and where the shaft seems to have sheared, something comes to mind. Do you think it's possible that a miscalculated torque specification for the shaft-end nut (or under- or over-torquing during assembly) could be contributing to why some fail prematurely and others don't? Also, I've seen you mention halving the oil-change intervals (which I'm with you 100% on even if this issue didn't exist), but one question: am I correct that only helps with the IMS bearing if the bearing seal has been removed to allow oil inside? Or is there some benefit to the IMS bearing even if the seal is intact?

Why in the 'BLUE HELL' is Dell stirring up trouble? Doesn't he have some statistics to teach or sumptin'?

Here's the pics of my bearing. It was a "single row" bearing out of an '02 C2 996. The good news was there is almost zero wear or play in the bearing. The bad is that I probably removed a perfectly good part. That being said I have little doubt that the bearing I replaced it with is superior to this one, so I guess I purchased a little piece of mind. Since I was replacing the clutch anyway, it wasn't super expensive.

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So, if your stock bearing was in perfect shape, why is the replacement any better? Is it somehow going to be better than perfect?

What was the mileage Ray?

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It is a higher quality ceramic bearing than the original steel piece. Simply put, it's a better part.

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The car has about 55k on it.

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Here's what LN says about their replacement part. Based off of the knowledge gained from our bearing analysis of both factory single and double-row IMS bearings and significant research, we've employed a custom ceramic hybrid bearing, featuring precision Japanese-made tool steel races and genuine USA-made Timken sintered silicon nitride ultra-low friction roller *****. We use exclusively ceramic hybrid bearings on both our IMS upgrade and retrofit kits. On average up to thirty times more expensive than conventional steel ball bearings, the benefits far outweigh the cost. Recent improvements in purity and grain structure have given silicon nitride a high stress fatigue life equal to, or better than, that of bearing steels. Some tests have shown life 3 to 5 times that of M-50 steel. Performs up to 15 times longer in poor lubrication environments (like suggested by the bearing analysis above) as compared to steel. Other benefits include... Less maintenance - Due to a minimum level of Adhesive Wear, bearing components and lubricants last much longer, saving you expensive service and repair time. High Hot Strength - High compressive and flexural strength over a wide temperature range. Lends itself for use to 2200 degrees F. Low Density - Specific density of 3.2 compared to 7.8 for steel. At high bearing operating speeds, the bearing ***** have a centrifugal force which may exceed the external loads on the bearing. The low density of ceramics can reduce this load considerably. High Hardness - While bearing steel is in the RC 58-64 hardness range, silicon nitride has a hardness of RC 75-80 and offers excellent wear resistance and resistance to denting or flat-spotting. Coefficient of Friction - Silicon nitride has a coefficient of friction which is significantly lower, especially under marginal lubrication conditions. It also exhibits better resistance to scuffing and seizing than bearing steel. Corrosion Resistance - Silicon nitride is unaffected by most common corrosive agents, and is well-suited for use in hot corrosive atmospheres, or where lubricants have been known to attack conventional bearing steels.

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So, I still don''t undertand why it is better. It is a FACT that your stock bearing had no wear and you are HOPING the new bearing will also have no wear. What did you gain? We know what you lost. Seems like the stock bearing is more than enough for the engine and paying extra money for a non proven bearing is silly.

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Why it's better is patently obvious if you read any of the info above or saw the quality of the new part. The question you should be asking is was the swap really necessary. Based on the condition of the bearing I removed it was not. Can the old part fail? It would certainly seem so based on some reports, but I am not convinced (as I suspect you are also) that this part is the ticking time bomb some have made it out to be. So did I waste my money. Probably at this point based on the wear of the current part. Down the road who knows? I will tell you one thing. Mobil 1 0W40 seems to have done an excellent job maintaining this particular part in my engine.....

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So Ray, why there's no grease on your bearing? Has the grease been removed or the grease was already gone when the bearing was replaced?

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The Mobil Water you used never touched the bearing. Luckily.

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Maybe 0W-40 is so thin, it can actually penetrate the barrier between the seals of the bearing to actually keep it lubricated. No wonder Porsche recommended it, they realized the sealed bearing was a mistake! Just kidding of course....all in good fun

Um

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Um what? What's the matter, getting anxious?

Jake, thanks for all the info, and congratulations on developing such high quality parts. Just curious: do 996 Turbo Pcars transmissions also have sealed bearings?

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Just so I understand your point of view properly, would you say the same is true of any aftermarket replacement part that was overbuilt versus the OE item? Wheels, for example, or a stereo, or seats, or shocks, that kind of thing? Do you believe it's foolish to upgrade any part that hasn't failed?

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My point is, there is no evidence that the IMS bearing has a design flaw or that many of them fail. If you replace the IMS bearing, why not the wheel bearings which occasionally fail, or the motor mounts on a regular basis? Then you have the spark plug tubes and O rings, AOS should be replaced whether it is a problem or not. You should also replace the oil cooler in order to eliminate possible intermix problems. Early DMF had a high rate of spring failure so all of those should be replaced even tho yours is fine. Don't forget to replace your timing chain guides along with your cam lifter mechanisim. I can probably come up with dozen more components that occasionally fail, many more often than the IMS and some just as catastrophic. Stereo, wheels and the like are upgrades that change the performance of a particular aspect of the car. The new IMS does not, nor has it been proven to be any better than the stock bearing. If I needed a new bearing, I would look at this one, but I sure wouldn't replace it at any price simply because a few have failed. That's like wasting your time replacing a perfectly functioning Rear Main Seal hoping that the new one performs as well as the perfect old one. After talking to 8 midwest dealers and only being able to find 2 confirmed IMS bearing failures, it is hard to believe that the bearing is a problem. Both of these failures also occured on cars running a LWFW. I guess I can conclude it was the changing of the crank balance that caused the bearing failure?

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I'm pretty sure unless you have close ties to a mechanic or other employees,no dealership will openly admit 'their cars suck'. When I talked to a service manager behind the counter at Niello Porsche,he played dumb about the engine failures,but when I talked to my buddy who was a mechanic there he admitted that a lot of the M96 engine fail. Doubt he wouldn't have admitted that near any other employee. Don't get me wrong. I fully believe that all this IMS stuff is blown out of proportion,I've personally had 3 M96 designed engines in my house,99' 2.5L(ideal for cracking blocks),a 01' 3.2L and 3.4L(IMS failing and head cracking prone engines)...non have ever let me down,and 2 of which are driven pretty gosh darn hard every time they are taken out. I think a lot of people are assuming their engines are going to explode in the next few miles and are just replacing stuff left and right now. It's now being looked at as a when it happens rather then if it happens. It's being marketed perfectly,but on these forums where we are here to help one another learn and help to enjoy their cars, I don't believe that this mass hysteria it's created,was deserved.

I'm in the process of replacing my clutch at just under 60,000 miles. I was leaning towards preventative replacement of the rear main seal and possibly the LN Engineering IMS bearing retrofit. But after observing that the RMS is not leaking and the IMS cover is not leaking, I've decided to leave well enough alone at this point. I decided not to even open up the IMS cover to inspect the bearing and instead will continue to check the oil filter regularly for signs of pending bearing failure (none observed thus far). Here are some pics of the RMS and IMS cover. Note the coolant residue in the upper left hand corner of the crank bell housing. I could not locate the source of the leak, even after pressurizing the coolant system. I'm guessing this is left over residue from a leak fixed by the PO.

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? really? My lil' shop here in SoCal, one of 20 or so that service Porsche's in the county has replaced at least 5 due to IMS failure. Some of them with less than 50k miles on the car. So maybe it isn't as frequent in your end of town because there is not the volume of cars there.

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Where did they get their statistics? 1 in 20?

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Anecdotal Evidence

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I think he is saying his shop is one of 20 shops in the area that service Porsche's.

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If there were a 100 of shops experiencing the same thing, it still wouldn't be a concern.

Ruh roh. I just put a LWFW in my car. 1999's post doesn't give me the warm fuzzies about that decision

I was reminded about this old thread a few weeks ago when I was out at my friend's shop at Willow Springs. I handled probably 6 or more failed or imminently failing IMS bearings. They ranged from a little loose and not smooth spin to flopping all around to loose and catching as you spin. Any of these would be taking out the engine really soon had they not been replaced. I watched a double row IMS being replaced in a Boxster, actually went pretty quickly. That one was purely preventative and had no actual play or issues in spinning when it came out. Our M96 motors are no longer a black box mystery. A body of knowledge is now out there. There are things on it that wear out and take out the motor if not addressed. Just like any other motor porsche or otherwise. Even the venerable GT3 Cup motor has a very well defined rebuild window measured in operating 'Hours'. My 2 cents

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So if you think that the best way to install the bearing is without seals, do you think we need to clean the grease before? I'm not sure if this grease could contaminate the clean engine oil... And... could the oil passing through the bearing (without seals) get into the IMS tube? Thanks in advance for your reply, Jake. I'm one of those who think that you're giving us a great support. I think 0W40 is too thin and properly for cold climates. after reading LN/Raby's advices about lubricants, I'm going for Valvoline VR1 5w50.

Ok, so i have read the entire nine pages of comment, one thing I practise that I have not seen addressed is Oil Analysis. I have a 2001 996 and i use Mobil One 0-40 changed at 5000 miles, then send off a sample to blackstone to get analysed, I rely on the fact that as everything seems really healthy right now and the analyses are complimentary about the engines condition, could the bearing get to the point where it fails completely and causes catastrophic damage to my engine in less than 5000 miles?. I was hysterical about the problem until i went this route and I'm wondering if my new found confidence is warranted?.

Early '99 owner (May '98 build) and new member here. Bought car in 2004. Don't really know if the motor is a replacement or original. Car now has 33k miles. No visible leakage from RMS and bottom of motor is dry. Just changed oil. Used 15w50 Mobil1. Old oil and filter looked clean. After going through these 9 pages about the IMS bearing I feel a little sick. I "had" planned on keeping my car for a long time since I love it and it's in pristine condition and runs as new. But now I feel like I'm always going to look at it like it's a bomb about to go off. Did I read that replacing this IMS part runs close to 2K dollars? My dilemma now is should I spend this kind of money to get over the "sick" feeling or rationalize the anecdotal odds and hope for the best?

I have raced my '99 car HARD for the last 3 years. 4 hour enduros in 105F ambient heat etc. We change the oil (Motul 300v) every w/e and cut open the filter to look for bits. So far so good. My mechanic posits that its tied to Porsche going to overly wide oil change guidelines back in the late 90's. He may be right but how are you going to test that theory. We are just about to pull the motor- if there's anything of note I'll post here. There is no data on IMS failure. Equally there is no data on how effective the cure is. Intuitively it makes sense but may be (may be) unnecessary. Ultimately its for you to decide, but changing your oil frequently and keeping and eye on the RMS , drain plug and oil filter can't be a bad thing. Best of luck (to us all).

There is no data on IMS failure because IMS failure does not exist. There are many many things to be afraid of with regards to your high performance flat 6 engine (D-chiping, cracked heads/valves, cylinder ovaling) just not IMS failure.

Trapper, I have an early 99 as well - I think an August 98 build. One thing to remember in all this is that the early motors (installed in 1999 and 2000 MY cars) used a dual row IMSB. Anecdotal evidence seems to be that the dual row bearing motors seem to have experienced far less bearing related problems than the 2001 and up cars with the single row bearing. I'm like you and didn't know about the "issue" until after I'd bought my car (at 28K miles). I've had it now for 4 years and it has about 43K miles on it. I intend to keep it for a long time. Just change your oil often and check your filter after every oil change for debris. There are lots of cars out there that have gone into the high hundred thousand mile mark and beyond.

Wonder what the IMS failure ratio is between daily drivers and garage queens.

I took my car in today to have my IMSB done as a precaution since my car has been a "garage queen" for most of its life and the owner of the shop (Redmond European in Redmond, Wa) showed me some recent IMS's he has done, one he said had the ***** fall on the ground as he pulled the IMS cover off (double row), another he showed me was all dry and loose and sounded gritty (single row) definately feeling better about my car now that I took the step to do this......to me 2k is quite a bit for something that may or may not fail but I look at is as a type of insurance....

If the bearing was as easy to change as an oil filter then there would be no 996 on the road that didn't have the upgraded bearing. There would be no cheapish 996 to buy. I love the scare mongers. It was the scare mongers that made it possible for me to afford a top class sports car. WE are not all highley paid Doctors, surgeons or executives on this board. The top and bottom of this discussion is, some of us don't have that kind of money to outlay on something that probably wont happen. Don't we all take a chance every day of our lifes? From the moment we rise in the morning we take a chance that we are still alive at the end of the day. My preventative measures consist of checking my oil filter, Changing oil at 5000 miles driving the hell out of my DD and thats about it. I refuse to live in the wreckage of my future. Thats not a good place to live. I live in the wonderful moment of driving a convertable 911 Porsche, something I have wanted to do for the past 50 years but could never afford one. The scare mongers made the 996 possible and I thank them so much. So thanks to Flat6 Innovations and Jake. I hope I never need to use you. Oh musn't forget to take my 6 daily tablets to keep my heart ticking lol

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BTW how was the condition of yours.. Don't need to ask or you would have said how bad it was. I have an extended warranty which came on my car with 35000miles or another 2years left. I already used it for a new gear box last june and I am driving like a maniac to make the car break down on me. No luck so far. Well.....got to get my moneys worth. Like the guy that had to have his car towed off the turnpike for $500. He kept his foot on the brake just to get his moneys worth.

Everything fails eventually. M96/M97 engines have a remarkably reliable track record. There are something like a half million on the road. If there weren't a few hundred horror stories out there, it would almost be more suspicious. If the fail rates were anything like the fear mongers would have it (10% or some nonsense), this would be a headline scandal on 60 Minutes, and not the engine powering Consumer Reports most reliable car of the decade, and there wouldn't be a dozen aftermarket warranty companies out there happy to write you a power train warranty for a tiny fraction of the cost of engine replacement. Enjoy your car. They all break down sooner or later, these just do it later than most 99% of the time.

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what weight of 300V 5W40 or 15W50? I've used the 300V 5W40 and after 10 track hours the UOA was pretty good... the only thing that was low was the actual viscocity... cSt Viscosity @ 100�C was 10.87 so that was a little low and I don't know the impact of that or if it could go longer in the engine... 10 track hours and 3,100 KILOMETERS I'm trying DT40 this year from LNEngineering to see how good that is... I have to say though I've been using the Castrol 5W50 which has good UOA's but the Motul 300V had better results.... and Mobil 1 was crap. Don't know how stable Castrol 5W50 is at high temp high rpm but if metal wear is an indicator the Motul was better

Quotes source post: 9380018

Funny, tell that to the owner of the 996 that is sitting in my parking lot with an ims failure... We didn't want it to feel lonely, so we parked it next to a boxster with the same problem....

Quotes source post: 9381976

Ill update you in a couple days, I should pick it up Friday or Monday, Im expecting it to be in excellent shape though, but you never really know.

My local Porsche dealer hasnt seen ANY IMS failures at all...

Great thread for anyone who stubble's across this thinking of buying a 996. Stop worrying about what you've heard and buy one. Like any car check it over and if its well buy it. if it were a Ferrari then you would have some repair/maintenance bills to worry about.

When I recently had my catalytic converters replaced at the dealer I asked the service guy about the IMS and he said only ever say one or tow in all his time there as well. I think this is blown way out of proportion by a small number.

I also asked my mechanic and he said he also has not seen any.... He is working on Porsche car for more then 12 years now..... Robert 2000 C4

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About to applaud your cavalier attitude about the IMS conundrum, until I read your following post about having an extended warranty. Wondering if you'l feell just as ballsy when that puppy expires.

I had the new IMS from LN Engineering installed on my car a couple of weeks ago because I needed a new clutch. But my mechanic told me that my existing bearing looked fine even after 113k miles. And my car has been raised on a diet of Mobil 1 0w-40. It's been through about 10 autocrosses and 5 DEs. I'm glad I got it done because it's one less thing to worry about but it was also good to hear that I didn't have the "time bomb" on my hands.

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Mainly the 15w50. Depending on the ambient temp we might blend with 5w40. Last four events (Sebring and Road Atlanta) started with lows in the mid 30'sF. By June and Aug it'll be 90-105F

I was at my Indie today and he had 4 ims. Bearings on his desk .. I picked up one of them ..badly scored bearings and metal shavings on the back. He said it was the worst one he has removed without grenading the engine. Low mile car that owner had not driven or changed the oil much. Not making noise either. One data point does not make a statistical trend .. but it was interesting to see

Excuse my ignorance, but are these aftermarket bearings Porsche approved? How many have been installed and how many miles have they been in use. What's the warranty? Oh, will they replace my m96 engine if their bearing fails? Can I ask for an m96 engine or will they give me a aftermarket replacement?

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"Aftermarket replacement..." Funny. The answers to your questions can all be found in detail in numerous other posts and on the LN Engineering website. How did this thread get started again?

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

Let's move on. I want one of those Raby 4.0s. Tick, Tick, VRROOOOMMMM. Seriously, What's the issue with single mass flywheels? Too easy to zing the motor when bounching off the limiter? What?

Quotes source post: 9386328

That's like the story in this months Excellence where the guy wrote in to the tech section about what he should do about his GT3 engine. The engine he mis-shifted from 4th to 1st.... Should I just pull the engine or will it be ok he asked? Apparently not the first time he did this... Just Wow.

Quotes source post: 9381976

The shop had pulled the seals to inspect the races before I had a chance to see the old bearing, but the bearing was definitely worn, very very free spinning and had a little wobble to it if you wiggled the shaft.

Quotes source post: 9386328

No, nothing to absorb harmonics with the dual mass flywheel removed. You need our new 4.2 liter DFI engine, it has no IMS and it's the first performance 9A1 ever built... From 3.4 to 4.2, the build is all depicted on the Flat 6 Innovations Facebook page:-) Along with a video....

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Will that work in a 996 Jake, and what kind of $ are we talking ?

I was just joking... We are not selling these yet, just testing for a 2014 release of the whole package after enough cars are out of warranty.. No way I would even try to retrofit a DFI into the 996, even the oil pump is ECU controlled! These engines are for the current generation cars, we got a head start on everyone again and even the factory this time!

Quotes source post: 9382682

Never thought of that. Now I will never sleep at nights.

Check out the following link from the INWR PCA newsletter. Looks like they found a way to predict IMS failures without 'chunks-o-metal' or death rattles or just replacing the bearing for the fun of it. http://inwr.pca.org/LinkClick.aspx?f...9s%3d&tabid=40

Quotes source post: 9391755

This is nothing new. I have experience with using these types of devices when testing drive systems in rotary wing aircraft. We have gobs of vibration data from these engines as the very first studies that we carried out was trying to determine bearing wear with trend data. This included retrofitting used bearings with various wear levels into the same engine and trying to determine the differences in the plots. The data was everywhere with no constants at all. We went so far as to have a couple of Porsche dealerships that see dozens of cars per day measure every car using these devices, even those that came in for an oil service and yet again, the data was everywhere. We were not able to establish any trends that were impressive enough to tell us that we had seen anything at all. We even tried it with brand new out of the box Porsche replacement engines and even engines using the late style, large IMS bearing. The other issue is ANYTHING within the engine that creates an excess vibration can also create all sorts of confusion when using this device. If you have a worn dual mass flywheel, worn springs in the clutch disc, worn pinion shaft bearing in the gearbox, or any other dynamic deficiency the device would measure it as well as any increases in vibration from an IMS bearing. You'l even see some of my posts or Charles' from 2008 where we illustrate some of the data we found when doing this, so its not new and it can work, but determining where the vibrations are coming from is the challenge and its not always the IMSB. In my direct experience any IMS bearing that has worn enough to have elevated vibrations has ALREADY emitted ferromagnetic material into the oil and collateral damages could have already begun. Remember: The failure of the IMSB is not what creates the catastrophe, its the collateral damage that comes from other secondary and tertiary failures as a result of the IMSB failure. Just two weeks ago we could have saved an engine, BUT the cylinders were compromised from exposure to ferromagnetic wear materials that were emitted into the oil by the failing IMSB. All methods of forecasting events have compromises. I commend the efforts of the author of that article, even though he tosses so many indirect slams against the IMS Guardian and how it samples the engine oil for the presence of wear materials in the engine oil. He certainly has some expensive equipment and I challenge him to create a device that can determine a failing IMS Bearing through vibration and bring it to market at a price cheaper than the IMSG, further making it as simple to install as a DIY effort. I wonder how many IMS Bearing failures he has seen first hand? How many engines that were failing from the IMSB has he personally saved? How many retrofits has he carried out? How many M96 engines has he developed from scratch and assembled flawlessly? Of course I wonder how many people he has had to call up and inform that their low mileage engine can't be repaired and will cost at least 15K to replace or reconstruct? He took tons of little stabs at me, so he'll be getting these questions in an email in the coming week. Using vibration to measure these things isn't new and it didn't take a nuclear-thermo-dynamic-engineeroid to come up with the idea of testing with this method 5 years ago. If he has more of these clinics and tests enough cars he will find something getting ready to come apart, which is a GREAT thing, that might be an IMSB, or might be something else- either way its still saving an engine and we LOVE to see that happen. I do agree with the author where he states that the engines are "good", because if they weren't I'd not be putting my name on them as reconstructed units. The engines have some areas where they lack, but overall if you carry out an IMSR, change the oil at 5K mile intervals and swap the water pump every 3 years, you'll dodge the majority of the bullets.

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Raise the price of the car by $1000 and when they ask about it tell them you'll credit them that cost so they can go and get it done themselves.

Quotes source post: 9392066

Thats been happening for several years now.. I have even experienced it with personal cars that I have sold. We had issues from day one with dishonest sellers stating the bearing had been upgraded when it had not, so thats why every bearing kit we have sold or installed includes a door jamb decal that matches the bearing serial number. Lots of people buy these cars not knowing about the issues and then when they find out about them they email us or call. This happens no less than 5X per week, so often that we have made a directive to email them.

As a commercial helicopter pilot, I fly for a living so I'm very familiar with engine and transmission monitoring with chip detectors. They're simple and proven in the aviation world. Best of luck to the other guy with his vibration analyisis but Jake has a device that will warn you of your engine making metal. Light comes on - you get it checked out. I think it would be great if all automotive engines and transmissions had chip detectors.

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Google is a funny thing. It can't distinguish between real information and incessant, repetitive bellyaching and worrying. It's the main reason I so hated these threads when they first started to flare up... same stuff over and over, with no result other than to populate the web with fear. I think this has improved in that more of the conversation on boards like this is about new learning and prevention, which is worth publishing. But we are paying the price for the emotional flailing around of a couple of years ago. Google search queries containing the words "porsche" and "engine" peaked in 2010, and have been on a slow, steady decline ever since. I think some sense of proportion is returning to the subject. For the record, I installed the bearing upgrade three years ago (a good thing, as it turned out), but I didn't and don't lose any sleep over it. It's life with a sports car.

Quotes source post: 9392708

This is where I got the idea from.. I crewed USMC CH 46s and knew about the technology since the age of 18 when I first saw one. As far as using this in other cars, well thats already underway and has been since before we released the IMSG to the Porsche world. The "Engine Guardian" will be sold in a store near you really soon for everything from a Briggs and Stratton to a NASCAR engine.

Jake, Well, that's good to hear, I would like to see the manufacturers offer these installed from new but that'll probably never happen. Water temperature gauges are going away (along with dipsticks, etc). I want more information about my engine, not less!

Quotes source post: 9393529

Nope it would never happen.. Unicorns and rainbows are all that sell these days. Everyone wants positive reinforcement that it's not going to happen to them.. Guys like me know that anything mechanical can go to hell in 5 seconds and we want to know it before it happens.. Few people can handle the truth.

I am picking up my new to me 996 with 100k+ miles tomorrow. I am not worried about IMS failure. I have a 986s track converted car which I beat the crap out of every month at Sebring. It has 85k miles and doesnt leak a drop of oil. My first Porsche was a 77 911s. I bought it in college back in the 80's and only many reliable miles later did I learn that this was a car from a dreaded era of 911's.

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That's nice to hear for a change. I agree .

Quotes source post: 9458244

+996

Quotes source post: 9458244

Is boxzilla getting retired?

Just did my IMS, LN replacement. Drive the car less than 5k per year, short drives, change oil often. IMS was perfect, some slight wear, 48k miles. Done now, enjoy the car like crazy and monitor but not worried one bit!

Quotes source post: 9460004

No I am buying this as a fun street car on weekends I'm not with Boxilla at the track. Although I am thinking of giving the 996 a baptism at Sebring this weekend given the forecast for rain. I figured I could take it easy in the blue group and learn a bit more about driving in wet conditions. You going?

I've got a 225 Yamaha on my EdgeWater. There is the same type of hysteria concerning a slimly possible corrosion issue. An uber-big maybe. Most are fine. A few owners had an issue and the 456,986 sheep immediately went into full panic mode. Whooping, screaming, running in circles. It's like a typical Democratic National Convention. "Oh My GODDDD!!!!!!! What If..??"?????? Now, at least on thehulltruth.com forum, you'd think that every single 225 was exploding in a white-hot burst of flaming magma. There are posts from guys assuming that the engines MUST be removed and sealed in a salt mine 56 miles underground. Same thing here with IMS and RMS. On that note, I did have my RMS replaced/upgraded whern I had a new clutch installed. My Indy laughed when I asked him to do the IMS refit. His opinion? If it blows, you fix what remains. If it doesn't, find something else to stress over. Then he asked if I had a Yamaha 225 on my boat......

Quotes source post: 9460028

Daily driver with 106K miles. Don't plan on changing the XXX.

Lost my engine at 122,000 to a cracked head. What are the chances of that redlining the car once in a while with that much mileage. We need a community vote option on threads where is a percentage of people vote to delete a thread its gone Oh yah, just spung a leak in a radiator tonight after a short flooring it adventure.

Pac996 Redlining your car once in a while wouldn't have caused your problems. Original water pump? Has it ever been changed?

Quotes source post: 9382162

Some shops never see IMS failures. Other shops diagnose an IMS failure every time a new customer rolls in. I wonder which ones are honest? Please note the thread title.

Personally, I think the IMS "issue" is a bunch of bull****. EVERY car has some weak point or issue they are known for. If you are a smart car owner, you will find out what that particular issue and keep it in the back of your head and address it if need be. Clutches in these cars last ~60k miles, so you're going to have the tranny out at some point. If you're worried about it, change the damn bearing when you do the clutch. I do find it funny how most of the people who worry the most about their IMS bearing or are part of the small percentage of people who have actually had a problem with their IMS bearing are the people with 20k mile garage queens; while the people who actually enjoy their cars rather than spending all their time worrying about them, who have 100k+ miles on them, never seem to have any issues?

I just had http://epe.com/ Install a IMS Guardian for me. I will sleep better now.

+1 to PAC996. I wish we could kill off certain threads. Everything just keeps getting rehashed. Of course I could just not check out the latest post!

Who then decides which threads should be deleted? I've searched through similar treads looking for a bit of information to finally find something useful to help with whatever issue I'm wanting to learn more about. I say keep everything.

I think he and I were only half serious about killing off threads thus the smiley faces after the suggestions.

Quotes source post: 9463321

I appoint Shark Attack

I just bought a 2002 C4 after years of saving. I'm a 54 yr old female and not the least bit mechanically inclined but I found a wonderful independent Porsche mechanic who eased my fears and told me what to look for in considering my purchase. Mine only had 20,000 miles on it so had a couple oil leaks due to dried out gaskets. I used the estimated cost of fixing those along with the mention of the IMS bearing issue to the previous owner in my negotiation in price. Mine had metal shards in the bottom of the oil pan so it was just a matter of time. I went ahead and bought the car and had the IMS bearing retrofit done. I've learned a ton from all of you on Rennlist. So, thank you! I love my car!

Congrats on the purchase and welcome to the club. However without pictures its not official.

Congrats on the purchase. Enjoy...

Definetly need pictures!!

Quotes source post: 9382162

How do you know its an IMS failure if they are sat on your car park. Shouldn't they be up on a hoist inside a garage or is that just speculation again. OH don't tell me. You already had them stripped apart to diagnose the problem, put them back together again and THEN rolled them out onto the car park. Yeh RIGHT. Pull my other one, it's got bells on it. I love the scare mongers, thats why I was able to buy the best sports car in the world within my price range. Hammering the hell out of this and done 11k in a year and sound as a pound mate coming up on it's 60K preventative mainentance schedule. right thats me of the soap box.......

^^^ you're responding to a post made over three weeks ago? Why do you keep resurrecting this thread? If you don't wanna replace your bearing, I'm sure it'll be fine and no one cares. Just a side note, you can pull the trans out and diagnos a bearing without even taking the wheels off,so theresreally no reassembly involved to push it outside.

Quotes source post: 9532887

Shut up Hurdi. The man says the IMS failed, and there's good reason to believe he is correct. Why the hell would you call him a liar when you don't have the sense even to realize your car look scrap with badges and stickers al over it. Do you even know what the IMS Bearing does? And yes I'm still sore from you trying to tell me that using gears to slow down "just as you woudl on a motorcycle" is good practice. It is my humble opinion that you have about as much mechanical sense as does my 90 year old mother in law. It's not like it doesn't happen bud. Rant off

Well, that's that.