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YOUR RESEARCHHow much HP can you squeeze out of a 996?
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those cars are driven at the limits by pros
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The problem is those cars are driven at the limits by PROS.
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I replaced my (non hollow) turbo twist 18' wheels (BS Potenzas) with 5-spoke wheels (Pirelli P-Zero Rosso) and reduced >30lbp unsprung weight.
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I believe the "very close" melts away when you add to the X51 kit to the from Top Gear tested 997S2.
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Sport Auto tested the MK2 996 GT3 at 7:54 (MK1 at 8:03).
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Suggestion
The added hp of the power kit has more to do with marketing than with modern engineering (what do potent Porsche customers expect to get when they pay a certain amount of money - in terms of hp and technical changes).
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Suggestion
If you want to spend money on some of the many mods available -- great -- but accept that these are entertainment dollars (changing the sound, the ride, etc.).
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I was wondering what mods do you have and how much hp did it yeild? I am interested to see how much hp can the 3.4 and 3.6 996 can get after all possible bolt on mods. I am also interested to see how much HP can a boosted 996 get. Lastly, have anyone ever turbo'd the 996?
Really isn't much. A couple hp here and there if you do exhaust, cats, headers, reprogram. But still nothing significant. To get significant you need to make serious changes. There is a reason the "X51" powerkit for the 996 runs $10K+ installed and that nets you about 25 ponies, REAL ponies. THe rest of the crap you hear about is just a nice way to separate you from your money.
There are several guys here that have supercharged their cars. Do a search and you can read for days. The 2 big systems are the EVO and the TPC.
Yup, PAG did it. It's calls a 996TT. Seriously, if you want a turbo, sell the car and buy a turbo. It is cheaper to do it that way than to try and convert a stock 996 to a TT.
BOTTOM LINE....IF YOU WANT MORE HP, POWER KIT (real 25hp for 10K) OR SC IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO (100 N/A "boosted" hp for 10K).
Agree with Dell. You will not get any noticeable hp gains by just bolt-ons, except with a supercharger. Any hp gains by installing sport exhaust, intake, headers, cats and so on will be on the high rpm range. A supercharger will run you about $9k to $11k and about another $1.5k for installation. If car is under warranty, forget about it unless you want to void it.
For the cost of a SC you might want to look at the tt's. You can get really nice car for about $60k to $70k depending on model year and options. One of the nice things about the tt is that you can really nice hp gains, if the standard 430 hp is still not enough, for little money. A re-mapped ecu and sport exhaust, approx. $5k will increase the hp to just over 500 hp. Change the turbos and you get even more....
Bolt-ons very little.
Boosted - the sky is the limit. It is all about $. If you want a 1000hp out of a 996, it is just a matter of money and patience. I am not sure how much hp/torque the crank/rods/block can handle though. Crank/rods can be made custom (Carillo, Skat) but the block is pretty much what it is.
Turbo - just hold out a little longer, there will be some surfacing in the future.
Thanks for the input guys. But I was hoping to see if people with simple mods such as intake, exhaust, flash have done a before and after dyno. I am guessing that those mods make a really insignificant gain and we would be lucky to see 5hp from all of those together. Have anyone done the plenum combined with CAI, exhaust, and highflow cats? I have read excellent reviews that the plenum alone can give 996 up to 25hp gains for around $1000.
You'll never get a consensus or a fact-based answer. I think Dell's advice was right on the money, and you could throw the plenum onto the same list.
Mod the car to make it drive the way you want it to. That stuff on your list can change the way the engine distributes power a little (headers, exhaust and intake), sharpen throttle response, improve low speed driveability and let you get more out of premium fuel (flash), and give you sound you want (intake and exhaust), but it won't really make the car faster, not enough to settle arguments.
If you want faster, supercharge or trade up. Your cost per usable HP ratio will be far, far better.
Isn't dyno fact base answer considering the same conditions. ie, dyno before, then after mod on the same day under same weather?
Not that i am trying to make my car gain 50+ hp but I figure it would be fun to mod a few things here and there to make a slight change in the sound and just hopefully some extra hp.
For my old e36 m3, I gained 22 hp from swapping the manifold, CAI, and exhaust. I thought that was an accomplishment to me.
I've seen the vailidity of dyno charts hotly debated around here, sometimes even by people who seemed to know what they were talking about. That's what I meant by consensus. There are arcane arguments about which dyno machines are legit and so on. And then there is the empirical control question... consistent operating temps, before and after, resetting the DME for each run so that the adaptive function doesn't cloud results, on and on. If a dyno test gives you confidence, go for it, especially if you do a before and after. If you want to use it to justify a mod in here, you'll find this is a tough crowd.
Honestly, most of us (myself included) don't have the driving skills or the opprotunity to use all the hp our cars have anyway. I understand your desire for more power - don't we all - but do you really need it?
Dyno's are EASILY manipulated both intentiional and unintentional. There is just NO WAY to get the proper numbers about HP with your car stationary with the lid open and a fan blowing right into the bay. Want a proper reading? Get it bench tested in an engine building shop. Better yet, have access to a wind tunnel?
And that whole plenum debate was just comical. You are NOT getting 25hp with a simple piece of refab metal. The engineers did NOT leave all that HP on the table that everybody want to beleive is there. Self fullfilling prophecy. Waste of money unless it makes you feel good. If that's the case, then get blown
I remember the days with my 5.0 Mustang where if you got bolt-ons such as underdrive pulleys, K&N filter, aftermarket headers, this that and the other, people would buy all of this, add up the 'claimed' HP gain from each one (as advertised on the box) and add that to the factory 'claimed' HP (225 during the Fox body times) of there car. So people would say "I got 400+ HP with just bolt on's", yet they never dynoed it or took into consideration how the manufacturer came up with that 'claimed' HP number on the box, which in most cases was on a bench tested engine without the body of the car
Better yet, rather than relying on a dyno chart, why not actually measure performance changes. If your goal was to decrease the time it takes to get to 100 mph, did your mod show an improvement? If not, your mod did not work, regardless of what the dyno states.
I understand that this method will do little to satisfy the many keyboard racers we have on this board. For those people, I can produce an offical dyno chart that will show that you have 150 rwhp than you do today. Simply send me $250 in cash and I will send you the chart that you can proudly carry with you whenever you drive your car.
NOTE: Higher power charts are available for a higher negotiated price.
I agree with you completely.
During the weekends, me and a few buddies of mine always do car days and we often go out to see which mod "helps" our car. For example, my bone stock 996 can pull on him pretty hard (as seen on this video)
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...0-01-50-04.flv
but after he did a simple manifold upgrade, the results are completely different now. He now can hold up much better than seen in this video.
Neither of us are professional racers and we both know that this is only a boring straight line race but we enjoy it and hope one day soon to get involved with auto-x to teach us how to drive our cars to the potential.
Although I agree that the bolt-on mods do not bring the promised hp (otherwise I'd already pass Dell's GT3), the statement that "The engineers did NOT leave all that HP on the table that everybody want to beleive is there." is incorrect.
Porsche is a marketing/economics driven company and only for their top of the line products driven by their engineers. Porsche has no interest to ruin their business. The X51 power kit for instance has to be limited to keep the plain Carrera below the GT3, otherwise every GT3 buyer would be a fool to spend more money for more performance (BTW I believe that a 997 C2S with power kit and upgraded suspension outperforms a 996 GT3 but that's another story). The added hp of the power kit has more to do with marketing than with modern engineering (what do potent Porsche customers expect to get when they pay a certain amount of money - in terms of hp and technical changes).
There are tons of economical arguments why Porsche doesn't optimize the performance of the base Carrera model. Their engineers are paid to optimize the performance of the GT3 under the restriction of a NA <4 liter flat 6 engine, this is their master discipline, nothing else (the performance of the basic Carrera engine is a didactic play and keeps a sound potential for aftermarket tuners - even this does NOT conflict with Porsche's interest - good marketing).
If you look at the stock Carrera Plenum on the 996, you'll see that the cheap plastic piece costs probably less than $5 to produce whereas the RSS Plenum costs at least $50, so why should Porsche spend $45 more to add let's say 5-10hp to the base Carrera? Back in 1999 it was sufficient compared to other benchmarks (993, other sports cars) to produce 300hp for a base Carrera 911.
If you think the GT3 is just about HP, you're in for a big surprise someday when you drive one.
Back on topic...It's true the engineers have to consider many factors and can't just design every part for maximum performance, but they also don't sacrifice a lot and the claims made by a lot of these "tuners" are comical.
I know that the GT3 is much more than the hp, shown on paper but Porsche still "needs" to keep this number above the base Carrera's hp. Just the sound between 6-8k RPM is worth the money!
For the second part of your statement we seem to agree.
I've probably commented on this before, but I love that Wimbledon Green! My old 996 was that color and it needs to be seen in person to really appreciate it.
DO YOU REALLY NEED IT??? Cmon now! You guys need to check out 6speed once in a while. Over there ITS ALL about power and mods!!
Besides, Porsches handling is so great, you add more POWER and you'll be surprised at how tame it still feels.
Anyway, i'd have to agree with the consensus. If you REALLY crave power, look at some of the 2001/2002 Turbo's. The prices are GREAT and you get 420BPH outta the box. For another $2k you can be close to 480BHP and 480Lb-FT with a simple ECU flash. For another $2 or $3k, you're up over 520hp and 520torq. Great thing is, the cars are made to handle it ALL DAY LONG!
I guess 25-35 hp to the wheels max with all the bolt-on's but I'm sure others have already stated somehow scientifically and factually how impossible it is. lol!
As I remember, I was a lil over 3k rpm. Probably around 3.5k while he was slightly above 4k. I was in the 996 (other car) while the video was from a e36 m3.
Name the date and time and I am sure Holger with come as well to take that bet. I'd be happy to go up against a C2S with 381hp to my stock GT3 with 380hp. What shall we bet? Pink slips?
I musta missed something. I have a 911 Twin Turbo, that happens to be a COUPE. Porsche doesn't make a sedan...yet.
Anyhow, people with 911 TT's with Exhaust, Bigger Turbo's and ECU flash are running low 12 second Quarters and 0-60 in under 3.9 seconds.
Oh 1 more thing, I'd LOVE to see what it costs to get a 99C2 to 500+ HP, including the necessarys, such as bigger brakes, suspension etc..... Then I'd love to see how much money would be lost on resale.
Actually I have a very honest dyno that shows my 3.6L putting out 320 RWHP. That should be somewhere close to 370 at the crank. The dyno was to certify the car for NASA (lower hp is better) so we sure weren't cheating. That's with an X51 but otherwise stock internals although I wouldn't call the mods "bolt on".
FWIW, I raced Andy Lally in a Grand Am Koni prepared 997 with my cup car this year. We ran nose to tail for the whole race. Obviously he's one of the best road racers in the country but the car was very fast. I had nothing for him on the straights.
Jim
Cool! here's the time and date (we'll meet at sun rise under the 2 oaks)
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/374809-10-14-07-private-track-day-at-summit-point-wv-open-spots.html
Why don't you and Todd join us and show us the difference between the 2 cars?
BTW, I'm in good company saying that the 996 GT3 and the 997S2 (sport chrono) are in the same league:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZyNtIKP7k
With logic like that, we'd all be driving Honda Civics instead of 996s. Do you NEED to get to 60 mph in under five seconds? Do you NEED to take the onramp at over twice the recommended speed?
Hell, for that matter, I'd probably be BETTER served by driving a Honda sedan--it wouldn't be a pain to squeeze my kid into the car, the mileage would double, and the resale value (percentage-wise) would probably be even higher.
"Need" is the probably the farthest thing from anything Porsche-related
I think that it's amazing what PAG did with the 3.4/3.6 engines. In fact, my wifes BRAND NEW 3.5L twin turbo BMW engine barely matches the naturally aspirated HP of my MY00 C2.
I wish I could get another 50 ponies, but as stated above, I can't properly utilize all 300 I have now
-td
Marketing gag of BMW
. The 335i (300hp - EU 306hp) has only a 3.0l engine; basically the same engine as the 330i (256hp - EU 272hp) just with 2 turbos. Same applies to the in EU very successful torque monster 335d (284hp) which is a twin turbo charged 330d (231hp).
There is little question, that modding a car can be great entertainment. There are a number of U.S. cars, classic cars, etc., that really had big hp gains from simple bolt-ons because the car was designed around production ease and cost rather than genuine performance.
The challenge with a late model Porsche is that we have already paid quite a bit of money for engineering that has gotten all the low hanging fruit from the basic design. So, to get a lot more from it will take a lot more bucks.
One of the things I like about the Porsche is that it is a wonderful balance. A decent ride--yet firm; good power--but still dependable and reasonably economical; etc. As many true road tests have demonstrated, you can't predict performance just by hp statistics. Once you start down the path of going to greater extremes -- you can often gain something (if you pay enough) but you will often lose at the same time. So, if you spend enough for a truely large increase in hp, you will likely have a decrease in longevity or driveability, etc.
I agree with others that if you really want a "boost" -- get a 911 Turbo. If you want to spend money on some of the many mods available -- great -- but accept that these are entertainment dollars (changing the sound, the ride, etc.). There's nothing wrong with that. But claims of hp gains from simple bolt-ons are usually unsubstantiated.
Sorry to pick nits, but the old 3-liter N52 engine is a different animal than the twin-turbocharged N54. The newer N54 lacks the second-generation Valvetronic but gains direct injection (well, and those cute little turbos, of course).
When the N54 came out, they detuned the N52 and made it the base engine.
I believe the "very close" melts away when you add to the X51 kit to the from Top Gear tested 997S2.
Anyway, both are great cars!
BTW, Walter Roehrl drove the 997S2 (w/o X51 kit) in 7:59 around the Ring. Sport Auto tested the MK2 996 GT3 at 7:54 (MK1 at 8:03).
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=0&tID=10073
Oh dear Lord, here we go again with the ring times. One of the most worthless comparisons. A 20km circuit that allows the strengths of ALL cars to shine.
What's funny about ring times is that you can almost get any time you want to fit what you want if you just look for it.
For example, I just found in 10 seconds on Wiki, that the "records" are listed:
997GT3 7:42
996GT3 7:52
996 TT 7:56
997S 7:59
7 seconds is eternity on the ring. Nevertheless, I'd love to put up a stock 997S against my stock GT3 at any 2-3 minute track that most of us run and see what happens. I'll be at VIR next weekend.
pete...those are track times for indiv drivers at a track event not a pro at the ring.
However, on a 1 min track/auto-x course, stock for stock, there is not going to be too much difference. Like I said, any 2-3 minute track
Seems harsh. A track that favours all cars seems like a good standard for bench racing. And although any individual performance can be debated (on any track, anywhere, any day), the sheer volume of data certainly gives you more directional confidence than any other measure I can think of for a road car.
Let's face it, using the standard you're setting here, it's never possible for your car to be pronounced faster than anyone else's in the same sort of league. All you can ever know is that you were faster than him, in those particular cars, on that day, on that track, on that fuel, with those tire pressures, etc. etc.
I'm all for sorting these things out wheel to wheel, but if we shoot down every single theoretical comparison, where's the fun?
Agreed. It is fun to be theoretical. The problem is those cars are driven at the limits by PROS. The gap would get even greater if a normal Joe like us drove those cars (same driver so we can compare cars) since not a single one of us can really get to the limit of these cars.
Is it fun so we can justify our purchases? Sure. It's in a guy's DNA to compare ***** size, theoretical or not
Nolo contendere. In fact, that's what makes the consensus around 'ring times fun. We can tacitly agree that small gaps are as good as big ones, and justify the money we spent on our Alfonso di Credenza or whatnot. I mean, honestly... nobody on this board could hustle my plain jane C2 around that track in 8:17. But I love knowing it's possible.
***** size. Touche. The perfect analogy.
What about going the other direction...instead of more powe, how about less weight? Lighter wheels, lighter seats, get rid of junk in the car...
What about a lightened flywheel?
Here is a numerous article on that:
http://crazyjim.ramelot.com/14seconds.htm
Reducing weight is a very efficient way to make the car faster; not only on straights but also in turns. Take the back seats out (back rest is pretty heavy), take the spare tire out. GT3 seats should reduce weight by 20-30 lbp each. I replaced my (non hollow) turbo twist 18' wheels (BS Potenzas) with 5-spoke wheels (Pirelli P-Zero Rosso) and reduced >30lbp unsprung weight. Next level is battery, hood, interior parts, ...
We have a great "weight reduction" thread over in the GT3 forum that lists weights, etc., for various parts and the way to achieve what you are looking for
So far I have swapped out my 18" turbo twist wheels for Fikse Profil 10. It seems that the stock 18" turbo twist weights a ton! My back seats are already out and I am guessing that saved around 20lbs total at most.
supercharge! with 1 bar of boost 0-60 in 3.92 & 1.77 60ft (g-timer) he! he!
fast for the street descent for the track. However i don't think they last as long as turbos.
1 Bar of boost of the stock 996 would actually reduce your performance, right before it blew your heads off. 3.5 second 0 - 60 time is achievable with less that .6 bar.
What kit do you have running 1 bar of boost? Unless you are running lowered compression, that motor wont last long.
Most kits are like .4 bar of boost.
