Am I getting ripped off?

I have a 1999 C2 and the CEL is on (non-blinking) with no change in performance. The dealer states I need Bank 1 cam adjuster, 2 oxygen sensors and seals for approx. $3000. I told them I'd let them know. Thanks

Welcome! Firstly either buy yourself a code reader or go to an auto parts store and have them read the code for you. Do a search here for the code and you'll have your answer.

hold on there, get a second opinion from another shop. Now that is said... welcome to RL. We know you are at a stressful time in the ownership of your car. This is a helpful place to come. We request when you get time to post a little bit about yourself and your car along with a couple shots of the car. We understand that is not high priority today having had the $3k quote dropped in your lap, but seriously, get a second opinion. Also let us know your mechanical abillities and available time/space/tools to maybe do some of the things yourself. Best of luck.... One last word... post results and follow up with us, it will help you down the road when and if something else comes along Ed

yep 2nd opinion and try an independent instead of a Porsche Stealer.....

+3 on getting the second opinion. Also tell they that you want to know what codes they are getting. I would have your local autoparts store read the codes so you know tham BEFORE you get the second opinion. Welcome to Rennlist.

Again agreed on the 2nd opinion. Your location also would help as there are many of us across the country, one of us surely can direct you to a good indy shop. Keep us updated and welcome to RL.

I would spend $50 on buying a ODB II reader instead of going to Autozone. The amount of times you can read the fault codes and then clear codes yourself is worth the money. Pcars have very sensitive sensors.

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Absolutely...buy a code reader then share the code with us on the forum. Do that before you spend 3k. Often a CEL can be erased and won't appear again.GL.

mileage? cel (non-blinking) are emissions related... ^^^ what these guys said!

Thanks for the info. 56,000 miles

If they say you need a cam adjuster, then there must be a leak. This probably has nothing to do with the check engine light. I think the o2 sensors and seals are fairly inexpensive to do.

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A failed cam adjuster will not cause a leak but it will cause a CEL. The seals mentioned in the OP are the seals required when the cam cover is removed to replace the cam adjuster.

My cam cover seal did leak a little bit and I did not get a CEL so I guess my cam adjuster was OK then... After replacing seal, everything is good, no more leak. Cheers,

I've seen a failed cam adjuster (solenoid or the tensioner assembly can fail) cause blinking check engine light. Anyway, it is unlikely that you need two oxygen sensors at this time also. If they're quoting you for the chain tensioner/adjuster assembly, along with the solenoid (that part alone lists for around $1000), along with two oxygen sensors, I'd say the quote is only a bit high. However, often you can get away with just the solenoid, in which case the parts/labor should be well under $2k. I would also get a second opinion. If you were local I'd be glad to help you out, but unfortunately you're not.

Welcome to the forum. You are in the right place, the guys here at the forum are very helpful and friendly. Please let us know how it turns out. John

what is the failure on the cam adjuster.... the solenoid itself, the guides or something mechanical inside?

Are you asking me? Or asking about the original poster's problem?

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anyone... that has had the problem. I just cant imagine a solenoid going bad... Its only a sealed coil.

I have seen many of them break over the years, on BMWs and Porsches (mostly what I have experience with), but also on VW/AUDIs. I have a failed one sitting at the shop now! The solenoid can go bad (and completely stop functioning). They most often fail and stop functioning completely, not offering any resistance to movement in either direction. The adjuster assembly's most common mode of failure is to get stuck in either the advanced (and that's the more common of the two) or the "idle" position. We are talking about the simpler early Variocam on the 3.4s here. Sometimes these can work themselves back to loose, if the contamination isn't bad, but with the labor involved, it could make sense to replace the whole thing while you're in there, depending on how dirty everything looks. Believe me, if it's mechanical, it can fail...

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I didn't read the seals were for the cam cover, though I thought o2 sensors have seals also, no? I just figured doing the cam ajuster requires more work like dropping the engine removing the cam cover and figured seals would be replaced at the same time. o2 sensors don't require any real work to be done. I didn't know the cam adjuster throw a code or would be a non flashing check engine light.

Thanks for all the help. I will purchase a code reader tomorrow and am working on getting a second opinion. All I was told was I needed to replace the bank 1 cam adjuster and the price of the part was $1,040. Would my car's performance suffer if this was bad? The car runs fine. The dealership is 2 hours away. Unfortunately I have 3 dealerships in my area but they are all 2 hours away from my house.

On the 99 through 01 cars there's a solenoid seal on the cam housing, this is an external seal only and it's condition does not indicate or influence the operation of the solenoid in any way. Replacing the solenoid on the MK1 models (again 99-01 for the U.S.) does involve a fair bit of work, including removing the exhaust, and splitting the cam housing (upper half of the head). The cam tensioner assembly replacement only adds a couple of hours to the job at the point of solenoid replacement. The oxygen sensors have crush rings on them that are technically single use, but they can be re-used without a problem. Replacing the solenoid or the entire chain tensioner/adjuster assembly does not require oxygen sensor replacement. sleepmd; you're quoted for the entire chain tensioner assembly, not just the solenoid. You can test the solenoid separately to check to see if it functions. It sounds like the actuator is in the idle position, which indicates that you may only need the solenoid, and not the entire actuator assembly. Does the car idle smoothly? Technically, you'll take a performance hit between roughly 1400rpm and 5300rpm (from memory), though not very significant. The problem is emissions, your car will not pass an inspection with the check engine light on. Also, any check engine light is technically emissions related, the flashing light means immediate damage to emissions related parts may occur- this usually means just the cats though. Anyway, let me know if you need more info.

Thanks Ahmet. The car idles smooththy at 800 rpm and I have not noticed any difference at higher rpms.

Retrieve the fault codes from your "NEW" OBDII code reader. write it down and then clear the codes and do a search here to find out what it is. Post it for us so people who have had these codes before can help you. After that take the car for a drive and see if they come back. If they come back after driving, then it warrants further investigation.

OK guys I have a code reader and the following codes were displayed P1531, P1340, P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303

what will a code reader tell you if you do not have a CEL on?? anything useful

CEL Codes - Porsche P0101 Mass Air Flow Sensor - Signal Implausible P0102 Mass Air Flow Sensor - Below Lower Limit P0103 Mass Air Flow Sensor - Above Upper Limit P0112 Intake Air Temperature Sensor - Below Lower Limit P0113 Intake Air Temperature Sensor - Above Upper Limit P0115 Engine Temperature Sensor - Signal Implausible P0117 Engine Temperature Sensor - Below Lower Limit P0118 Engine Temperature Sensor - Above Upper Limit P0122 Throttle Position Sensor - Below Lower Limit P0123 Throttle Position Sensor - Above Upper Limit P0130 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Intercore Short Circuit or Limited P0131 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Signal Wire Short Circuit to P0132 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Short Circuit to B+ P0133 Aging of Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Below Lower Limit P0134 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Interruption of Signal P0136 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1-3) - Intercore Short Circuit P0137 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Signal Wire Short Circuit to Ground or Incorrect P0138 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Short Circuit to B+ P0139 Aging of Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) P0140 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (cylinders 1 - 3) - Interruption of Signal P0150 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Intercore Short Circuit or Limited P0151 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Signal Wire Short Circuit to P0152 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Short Circuit to B+ P0153 Aging of Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Below Lower Limit P0154 Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Interruption of Signal P0156 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Intercore Short Circuit P0157 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Signal Wire Short Circuit to Ground or In - P0158 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 61 - Short Circuit to B+ P0159 Aging of Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) P0160 Oxygen Sensor After Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Interruption of Signal P0197 Oil Temperature Sensor - Short Circuit to Ground P0198 Oil Temperature Sensor - Short Circuit to B+ P0300 Misfire Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0301 Misfire, Cylinder 1, Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0302 Misfire, Cylinder 2, Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0303 Misfire, Cylinder 3, Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0304 Misfire, Cylinder 4, Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0305 Misfire, Cylinder 5, Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0306 Misfire, Cylinder 6, Damaging to Catalytic Converter P0336 Crankshaft Position Sensor - Not in Specified Range P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor 1 - Signal Implausible, Short to Ground, Short to B+ P0410 Secondary Air Injection System - Signal Implausible (Cylinders 1 - 3) P0420 Catalytic Converter Conversion Too Low (Cylinders 1 - 3) P0430 Catalytic Converter Conversion Too Low (Cylinders 4 - 6) P0440 Fuel Tank Ventilation System - Above Limit P0441 Fuel Tank Ventilation System - Above Limit P0442 Fuel Tank Ventilation System (Micro-leak) - Below Lower Limit P0444 EVAP Canister Purge Valve - Open Circuit P0445 EVAP Canister Purge Valve - Short to B+/Short to Ground P0446 EVAP Canister Shutoff Valve (Function) - Below Lower Limit P0447 EVAP Canister Shutoff Valve (Output Stage) - Open Circuit P0448 EVAP Canister Shutoff Valve (Output Stage) - Short to B+/Short to Ground P0450 Tank Pressure Sensor - Signal Implausible P0452 Tank Pressure Sensor - Short to Ground P0453 Tank Pressure Sensor - Short to B+ P0455 Fuel Tank Ventilation System (Major Leak) - Below Lower Limit P0501 Vehicle Speed - Not in Specified Range P0506 Idle Air Control - Idle Speed Too Low P0507 Idle Air Control - Idle Speed Too High P0600 CAN Time-out - Signal Implausible P0603 ECM Faulty P0604 ECM Faulty P0605 ECM Faulty P1102 Oxygen Sensor Heating 1 Ahead of Catalytic Converter - Above Upper Limit P1105 Oxygen Sensor Heating 1 After Catalytic Converter - Above Upper Limit P1107 Oxygen Sensor Heating 2 Ahead of Catalytic Converter - Above Upper P1110 Oxygen Sensor Heating 2 After Catalytic Converter - Above Upper Limit P1115 Oxygen Sensor Heating 1 After Catalytic Converter - Above Upper Limit P1117 Oxygen Sensor Heating 1 After Catalytic Converter - Below Lower Limit P1119 Oxygen Sensor Heating 2 Ahead of Catalytic Converter - Below Lower Limit P1121 Oxygen Sensor Heating 2 After Catalytic Converter - Below Lower Limit P1123 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 1 (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Lean Threshold P1124 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 1 (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Rich Threshold P1125 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 1 (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Lean Threshold P1126 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 1 (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Rich Threshold P1127 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 2 (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Lean Threshold P1128 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 2 (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Rich Threshold P1129 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 2 (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Lean Threshold P1130 Oxygen Sensing Adaptation Area 2 (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Rich Threshold P1140 Load Sensing - Signal Implausible P1157 Engine Compartment Temperature Sensor - Short Circuit to Ground P1158 Engine Compartment Temperature Sensor - Short Circuit to B+ P1213 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 1 - Short to B+ P1214 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 2 - Short to B+ P1215 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 3 - Short to B+ P1216 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 4 - Short to B+ P1217 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 5 - Short to B+ P1218 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 6 - Short to B+ P1225 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 1 - Short to Ground P1226 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 2 - Short to Ground P1227 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 3 - Short to Ground P1228 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 4 - Short to Ground P1229 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 5 - Short to Ground P1230 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 6 - Short to Ground P1237 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 1 - Open Circuit P1238 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 2 - Open Circuit P1239 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 3 - Open Circuit P1240 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 4 - Open Circuit P1241 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 5 - Open Circuit P1242 Fuel Injector, Cylinder 6 - Open Circuit P1265 Airbag Signal - Signal Implausible P1275 Aging of Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 1 - 3) - Below Lower Limit P1276 Aging of Oxygen Sensor Ahead of Catalytic Converter (Cylinders 4 - 6) - Below Lower Limit P1313 Misfire, Cylinder 1, Emission Relevant P1314 Misfire, Cylinder 2, Emission Relevant P1315 Misfire, Cylinder 3, Emission Relevant P1316 Misfire, Cylinder 4, Emission Relevant P1317 Misfire, Cylinder 5, Emission Relevant P1318 Misfire, Cylinder 6, Emission Relevant P1319 Misfire, Emission Relevant P1324 Timing Chain out of Position, Bank 2 - Below (or Above) Lower Limit P1340 Timing Chain out of Position, Bank 1 - Below (or Above) Lower Limit P1384 Knock Sensor 1 - Signal Implausible P1385 Knock Sensor 2 - Signal Implausible P1386 Knock Control Test Pulse - Signal Implausible P1397 Camshaft Position Sensor 2 - Signal Implausible, Short to Ground, Short to B+ P1411 Secondary Air Injection System - Signal Implausible (Cylinders 4 - 6) P1455 A/C Compressor Control - Open Circuit P1456 A/C Compressor Control - Above Upper Limit P1457 A/C Compressor Control - Below Lower Limit P1501 Fuel Pump Relay Output Stage - Short Circuit to Ground P1502 Fuel Pump Relay Output Stage - Short Circuit to B+ P1510 Idle Air Control Valve Opening Coil - Above Upper Limit P1512 Intake Manifold Switchover 1 (Output Stage) - Short to B+ P1513 Idle Air Control Valve Opening Coil - Below Lower Limit P1514 Idle Air Control Valve Opening Coil - Open Circuit P1515 Intake Manifold Switchover 1 (Output Stage) - Short to Ground P1516 Intake Manifold Switchover 1 (Output Stage) - Open Circuit P1524 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 2 P1530 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 1 P1531 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 1 P1539 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 2 P1541 Fuel Pump Relay Output Stage - Open Circuit P1551 Idle Air Control Valve Closing Coil - Open Circuit P1552 Idle Air Control Valve Closing Coil - Below Lower Limit P1553 Idle Air Control Valve Closing Coil - Above Upper Limit P1570 Immobilizer - Implausible Operating Range P1571 Immobilizer - Open Circuit / No Signal P1585 Misfire with Empty Fuel Tank P1600 Voltage Supply - Signal Implausible (or Below Lower Limit) P1601 Voltage Supply - Above Upper Limit P1602 Voltage Supply - Open Circuit P1640 ECM Faulty P1671 Engine Compartment Purge Fan Output Stage - Open Circuit (or Short Circuit to Ground or Short Circuit to B+) P1673 Fan Output Stage - Open Circuit (or Short Circuit to Ground or Short Circuit to B+) P1689 ECM Faulty P1691 Check Engine Malfunction Indication Light (MIL) - Open Circuit P1692 Check Engine Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) - short Circuit to Ground P1693 Check Engine Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) - Short Circuit to B+ P1782 Engine Engagement / Nominal Engine Torque - Short Circuit to Ground

that paints a clear picture... ouch !

Where is Loren? sleepmd you should go to Renntech.org for more info. Loren, who runs that site, is a fantastic wealth of information.

Thanks

Looks like you will be getting some adjustments. To your wallet!!

1 Welcome 2 Get a good Indy, the dealer will factor x4 anything they can.

So the cam adjuster is messed up. Not a big deal. Yes it does need to be fixed, but $3000???? Yes you are being screwed. Few hours of work and I do not see a code for any O2 sensors being bad. So 1 part, and some labor.. Maybe a $6-700 repair bill (including changing the oil and filter).

The solenoid is $190 at Pelican Parts. Hard to imagine why this should even come close to $1,000.

The solenoid is a part of the adjuster assembly. Replacing the solenoid may not fix the issue. I would not undertake the repair without further testing btw. The repair is kind of a pain, particularly for bank 1, Porsche assumes the engine would be out for this. I've done it with the engine in the car, but particularly the oil scavenge pump retaining bolts take some creativity to pull out. I replace them with hex heads. Anyway, $3000 is high, and oxygen sensors are not necessary, however I don't see this as a $600 repair, especially if the entire adjuster needs to be replaced, since the part alone is listed for over a grand and adds several hours of labor, and additional special tools...

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wait... you did this? Why - repair or maintenance? did you change out the cam chain guides too? Did you do a write up (link)... Thanks, This is one thing I have on the back burner as a "maybe" for the maintenance list ALSO - how do you guys get these prices? I see them quoted all over the place, is it you know or is there a way to look them up? Thanks in advance Ed

Just a word of advice to the OP, the misfires are likely caused by the timing issues, so if I were you I would tell any mechanic who was doing the work that I only wanted the cam issues resolved (as Ahmet mentioned, it might make sense to do the tensioners when you're in there). Once you've completed this work you should reset the CEL, run for a while, and wait for the misfire codes to recur (which they shouldn't if the O2s are fine, coils are fine, etc) before changing O2 sensors or other parts.

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Ed, Renntech has a database of US retail part pricing, but I believe you have to be a contributing member to view it. It is under the DIY Menu at the top. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...code=prices_us This is a good starting point, but I always call Sunset Imports.

THANKS so I went back and checked the rates with some of my receipts - in a couple cases the price was lower, in a couple it was higher... these prices based on (MSRP) and IIRC Sunset sell for much less. So I guess its a good benchmark as to what you can "expect to pay" then you can go price shopping from there. Again thanks BTW - Obviously I contribute to Renntech, how can you have a Porsche and NOT ???

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Ahmet replaced one because of a flashing CEL and a whole slew of codes, including indicated missfires on the opposite bank. In this case all that was necessary was to replace the solenoid, not the entire variocam actuator assembly. This job is mildly annoying if you have access to a lift. It would be theoretically possible with the car on jack stands but you'd likely need a small Asian child to remove the oil scavenging pump from the back of the head for you. There was not enough time to take pictures for a write-up but the procedure isn't terribly difficult. I would not, however, recommend anyone attempt this repair if they don't have a fair amount of experience. If you don't position the crankshaft correctly before removing the cam cover bad things will happen. Expensively bad things.

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Ed, You mentioned that you have this on your list of maintenance items. I have to ask: why on earth would you consider replacing your variocam actuator if it hasn't malfunctioned? This doesn't seem to be a common failure. Sure, chain tensioners wear and need to be inspected/replaced at some point, and a broken tensioner can lead to expensive things like bent valves, but the penalty for a failed variocam actuator is usually a CEL, rough idle and some loss of performance. Also, I've seen brand new parts fail, on several occasions, which cured me of the "I might as well replace part X while I'm in there" syndrome. I mean, if I'm replacing the timing belt on a Honda with 90k miles I'll still do the water pump at the same time, but I wouldn't advise that you pro-actively replace your variocam actuator. Spend the money on something fun instead, like a track event As for prices, there are lots of people that sell parts over the Internet (Pelican Parts, Suncoast, etc) who will be happy to quote prices for you. - Rex

Quotes source post: 6438335

Thanks Rex, my reason is exactly as you stated, to get to the cam guides and swap those out. The variocam actuator needs to come out (is why I asked) and was surprised that the job was done in the car. My "maintenance idea" is the guides... sounds like you guys got those while you were chasing all the other issues. Again, thanks for the feedback

2004 996 C2 43,000 miles CEL - misfire cylinder 6 My CEL came on last night after a cold start - blinking and message "drive to shop". Car ran a tad rough for a minute or two, then smoothed out and ran just fine - CEL turned off. Started the car this morning - no CEL for about 1/2 mile, then rough idle - CEL came on and stayed solid and message "drive to shop". Car ran fine - drove 20 miles to work with light on solid. Called the dealer - took it in this afternoon - light on solid from start and to dealer. Mechanic says "misfire cylinder 6" but stumped because car runs fine. He cleared the CEL - test drove it and it did not repeat. BUT - I just had the trans replaced under CPO, bad 4th gear synchro, and while the trans was out they replaced the IMS seal, retainer, and new bolts - under CPO. I drove maybe 100 miles since the service. As soon as I told the mechanic about the rough running - he looked VERY concerned - told me he didn't want me to take the car - and mentioned the IMS seal and timing - but again said the car should not be running strong if there was a problem. I have to say that my Porsche a dealer has really come around and they treat me very well. Porsche said "rebuild the trans" I campaigned the dealer to make a case for a factory rebuild swap - it took them three days but somehow they justified it with Porsche warranty. IMS seal was seeping very slightly - again dealer handled it all through CPO. RMS perfectly dry as it was replaced at 22k miles in july of 2007. AND best of all - they have come to know that I go out of my mind over any rattle in the car. I don't even have to mention it anymore - any time it is in for any service - these guys go over the car and return it rattle free and always as "no charge" - it lasts for awhile. I did notice two categories for misfire in this thread - 1) damaging to catalytic converter 2) emission relevant. I'll call the dealer tomorrow and try to get them to tell me which misfire code was on the read out.

And the answer to misfire cylinder 6 is ---- incorrect IMS housing installed by the dealer. They were honest and when I asked to inspect the parts and get the part numbers they willingly did so. The difference in housings was very obvious, they said the mechanic assumed it was an updated part. I am not real happy about running the car with an incorrect IMS housing - and when the dealer said it was a good thing I brought it in, I said maybe - perhaps I should have driven it until it grenaded- a new crate motor and rebuilt trans through CPO would make me feel better. Of course they said "no worries - no damage". Anybody think I need to be concerned about driving it for about 100 miles with the wrong housing installed?

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Hi everyone, new here, but I have a 1531 code for bank 1 and am limbering up to do this job -- maybe, I reserve the right to wimp out A question for Rex probably: I thought if you inserted to Porsche P9634 holding tool you could take off the cam cover without any prepositioning? Another question: is the bank 1 easier than the bank 2? I got the impression from one of the Porsche Techs I spoke to briefly that that was the case: is there an oil scavange pump to remove on the bank 1 side as well?