P-Car Sandwich - Advice/insight most appreciated

I have a 2003 coupe (tip, xenons, full leather and premium sound) with about 65k miles. I unwillingly became a member of the 996 accident club. My car got "sandwiched" on the 405 freeway (guy behind me wasn't paying attention when traffic came to a stop; hit another car, then plowed me and pushed me into the car in front) with the most significant damage to the passenger-side rear-end. Everything from the tail light down is smashed, and the impact rippled the right-rear quarter panel just behind the passenger door. The front bumper is destroyed, and the hood buckled some and will need to be replaced. I took the car to the body shop where the local Porsche and MBZ dealers have their work done (Class Auto Body, Long Beach, CA). Preliminary estimate was about $7k, but after a tear-down, it looks like damage will be much higher - in the $18-$20k range. The rear body panel is completely pushed in, and to get to the damage, they're going to need to remove the engine and transmission. They also are going to have to put it on a jig to square things up (frame damage?). In addition, there's the paint. Right now, they'd be painting about 1/2 of the car or more. I have a few basic (perhaps really basic) questions. 1) Is there a true "frame" on the car? 2) What's the significance of the damage to the frame, assuming it can be fixed? 3) In light of the damage, should I be pushing the insurer to declare the car a total loss? 4) Related to number 3, is there a reliable source that I can access to get the values that the insurer will use to determine the car's value for purposes of assessing whether it's a total loss? Thanks in advance for any advice or insights!

Your car will show up as frame damaged on Carfax. Push like hell for a total loss. If that doesn't work make a dimunition of value claim. This will likely require a professional apprasial. Being very determined you might get them to total the car which is the best outcome given the amount of damage.

Thanks for the input, Duane. Do you think it matters that I signed auth for the body shop to order parts? This was prior to tear-down when the scope of the damage nearly tripled.

Dmitri, I'm sorry to hear about your accident. I'm glad you are ok. I have bought and repaired several salvaged vehicles, including two 996s. I would not buy a project car with as much damage as you have described. I would push your insurance adjustor to declare the vehicle a total loss. Even if your car was repaired properly, the diminished value is substantial. It would be difficult for you to sell your car after it is repaired. I sold my first 996 project car a couple months ago. It had an engine fire & I rebuilt it. When I listed it on ebay, it was the least expensive 996 in the nation (including cars.com and autotrader). It still took a couple months to sell. Good Luck.

Thanks very much, Mfletch. I really appreciate the views of those who have "been there, done that." I've never had a car with this much/this type of damage before. To look at it to my untrained eye, it doesn't look that bad. But . . . My quickie research shows the wholesale Bluebook value at about $35k for an '03 coupe at 65k mi in "good" condition. Do you have a sense of how much or by what percentage you'd discount the value because of frame damage?

Dmitri, you are very welcome. I currently have two vehicles that had prior accident damage and clear titles ( 05 Range Rover & 03 BMW 330i). They are worth about 1/4 to 1/3 less than cars with no accident history (in my experience). The BMW had the left front fender & hood repaired (no frame damage). The Kelly Blue Book value is $19,200. I'm having a difficult time selling it and I have it listed for $13,950.

Mfletch, is your avatar photoshopped together, or is that the actual photo?

JC3d, my avitar is a photo of my latest project car. It should be completed today. I'm having the new windshield installed. I should be installing new wheels in a couple weeks and the aero kit shortly.

Dmitri, I was in a big accident in my Tahoe on the 73, just south of the 405. I took it to an authorized repair shop of my insurance. The shop said I had a bent frame and ended up replacing the frame! The final invoice actually says "remove and replace frame assembly" What was even more shocking was that it only cost $2850.00 for the frame swop out. I think the repair place fights as hard as they can to repair the car. My total bill (which the insurance paid all of) was $10,500. My Tahoe at the time was only two years old at the time and probably worth $18-20k. I think it is harder to get the insurance to total the car. Good luck,

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. Both the body shop and the dealer say that straigtening the frame is no big deal, and that they'll make the car perfect. They say that the amount of damage isn't going to total the car, and that the best I'd be able to do is to pursue compensation for diminution in value because of the accident history that now will show up on Car Fax. Based on a quick look around (Edmunds, Kelly), the car's value looks like it's between $35k-$40k, depending on whether its a trade-in or private sale. Of course, that's for a car without an accident history. Is there some objective criteria that insurers use to determine the diminution in value? Thanks, again.

I'd be yelling at the top of my lungs at the Insurance agency. If they are putting this thing on the jig / frame machine, significant damage was done. Period. As everyone else has said, push like crazy for a total. $18-20K in damage is WAYYY to much, IMO C.

Get it totaled if you can. Don't take your insurance's first settlement offer, it will be a low ball number. Research online (i.e. Auto Trader) and go through a 'what is my car worth' process so that you have some ammunition to fire back at them to get a higher settlement (believe me I speak from experience when it comes to doing this).

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Like all current cars (at least that I know of), there is no separate frame. It is a unibody meaning that the structure of the car supports itself with parts of the structure being strengthened to support to the whole. Some SUV's (like the Tahoe mentioned above) have separate frames. If a unibody car is not straight after an accident, they put the car on a "frame machine" which is meant to bend it back straight. One of my kid's cars was repaired with one of these machines. It came out okay. I suspect that a Porsche is going to take a much bigger hit on value from being repaired than her Mustang.

Push HARD to have the car totalled--otherwise it'll just be a headache for you in the future. Which insurance company is it? My wife's car (2001 BMW 325i) was involved in an accident last year. The KBB is around $12k for the car. The repair was around $8k. AAA insurance would not total the car (idiots). Now we're having a tough time selling the car--asking less that $10k--sucks. If they won't total the car, then FIGHT for diminished value. I wouldn't accept a car back after that much frame damage.

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1 - No "frame" per se. Unibody forms the 'space' frame. 2 - Despite this fact, the damage sounds substantially structural. I would not want to have it fixed as it will never be quite the same with that level of destruction. You also need to make sure that the transaxle and engine have not suffered damage from the tire/wheel being impacted . That will add on several thousand dollars as a transaxle from Porsche is in the 8-9k range for a 6spd manual. 3 - Not only yes but hell yes. 4 - Black book from the dealer would be my bet. Might also see what they're pulling at auction. You want retail for the hulk when they total it. Don't let them push you around on the valuation. If they refuse to total it, tell them that you want dimunition in value and get an affidavit from a dealer stating how much less that they say the car will be worth. Given the finicky nature of P-car buyers, most will walk the second you divulge the amount of damage. That fact alone may drive up the costs sufficiently to prompt them to total it.

Just realized, whose insurance company are you dealing with? If it is the other driver's company, get your own involved and have them help push for a total loss on your car. There is no way that any reasonably knowledgeable P-car buyer is going to touch that car for anything close to its current undamaged value and it will only get worse as the car ages. Definitely fight them. Talk to an attorney who is not on television.

Thanks, again, everyone. The engine and other issues that Porsche would need to address are currently "open" items. Porsche would get the car to pull the engine and transmission so that the body shop can put the car on their frame jig and straighten it out. My own insurer is AMICA. They are handling the claim initially, and plan to pursue the at fault driver's insurer (assuming that the insurer doesn't admit liability). Some fun.

They need to understand what Porsche's labor is going to be on that little item. They are starting down a very slippery slope here and you don't want that car back. I'd get all in their ... stuff ... about the fact that the car is already almost to half value without even considering the dimunition in value. I'd have a chat with the shop and the adjuster / inspector and point out *all* of the damages. BTW, have you taken pictures yet? I'd get a bunch of shots from the front, back, sides, and underneath. Document the crap out of it. Then post a couple for us to help point out things ...

Do worry about what you signed. That was before you knew the hidden damage. Send a letter to both your insurer and the bodyshop indicating you are recinding any authorization to repair the vehicle due to the increased estimate. The best you could ever hope for when you sell it is low wholesale blue book - poor condition. If you car has been serviced by a dealer get them pictures of the damage so they can at least visually assess any damage to the engine/tranny.

Sorry to hear about the 405 accident, my buddy got sandwiched like that in his primo '57 Bug. He also had to educate the insurance company, they were trying to screw him. (Some people say we should get rid of lawyers??) Yes, get more "expert opinions" to document your claim as afaik many dealers will not sell a car that has had frame damage. Of course insurance companies don't want to pay out....

I agree with you, Duane, about telling the body shop to stand down until I've worked through these issues with the insurer. I'm assuming that this situation is something that the body shop encounters relatively frequently, and that if the car is totaled, someone (insurer) pays them for the time they spent to do the tear-down and for any restocking fee for parts ordered. Thanks, and I'll keep you all posted on what happens.

Does anyone have a referral for an appraiser in the Southern California area? I'd like to be ready to roll in case of a dispute over the car valuation. Thanks.

Dmitri, I am sorry to hear about your loss. I don't know about the laws in California, but I can provide an example of how it works in North Carolina. I was recently in an accident in my 2005 BMW X3. I hit a deer with the right front of the X3 and the car that was following me struck me from the rear. The initial estimate for the repairs was about $7500 for the front damage, covered by my insurance (comprehensive) and about $7200 for the rear damage, covered by the other driver's liability insurance. At the beginning of the process, I pushed the body shop to get the estimate to a level that would result in a total loss, which insurance companies in North Carolina define as 75% of the Kelly Blue Book average retail. For this car, the average retail was about $29K, meaning that the damage had to exceed $22K before they would declare it a total loss. If the damage results in a total loss, the insurance company writes you a check for the KBB average retail value. Also, in North Carolina, the department of motor vehicles require you to disclose to the buyer, damage to the vehicle if it was more than 25% of the value of the vehicle at the time of the accident. Now, since the damage was less than 75% of the value but more than 25%, I have to disclose the damage to the next buyer. This is in addition to anything that will show up in the Carfax database. Fortunately, for me, the car was a lease and I am turning it back in to BMW tomorrow and picking up my new 2008 328 coupe on Monday in Spartanburg. The diminished value is now BMW's problem. Out of curiosity, I discussed this situation with the dealer, and they indicated that they would be lucky to get $15K for it at auction due to the accident, even though the repair job was done very well. Otherwise, the wholesale value would be around $23K. So, in my case, the diminished value would have been about 1/3 of the wholesale value of the car. Good luck with the process and don't settle for the insurance company's first offer. Randy

Brief Update: The body shop's supplemental estimate puts damage at $28k, with a couple of items still open. So, this car is a total loss before you even get into issues such as diminished value. The insurer's appraiser is going to look at the car next week, and we'll take it from there. I've checked prices at KBB, Edmunds, the Black Book, NADA. Any other places that I should be looking at to determine the fair value? Thanks.

At a dealer that wants to sell you an expensive replacement ...

Good news! I had a pretty good feeling this is how it would end up.

Dmitri, This is the outcome you wanted. Now its just up to you to negotiated high retail blue book with your insurance company. Since they will subrogate against the insurer of the guy that hit you, this shouldn't be an issue. Go online and print out from every dealer all cars that match yours. Use this as your baseline negotiating position. If they balk at the number....find a car you really want and tell them to buy it as a replacement for you. Also remember they have to also give you the sales tax based on value of your car that was totalled plus any prorated DMV fees.

good news that they are going to total out the car... was that you causing the major backup on the 405 near long beach the other week? j/k...

I should clarify that while I think the car is a total loss, my insurer hasn't come to that conclusion, yet. They'll send out their appraiser and may send the adjuster back. I'm hoping they don't try to nickel and dime the body shop estimate to bring it below a total (which, in my view would be foolish). In terms of negotiating price, isnt part of that going to be affected by the damage figure? In other words, the higher the value of the car, the lower the percentage that damages represent of the total vehicle value, so at some point negotiating too high a figure take the vehicle out of the total loss scenario. I think my insurer uses 70% to determine whehter a vehicle is a total loss. (Is that exclusive of tax and licensing fees?) If you were on the southbound 405 Freeway a week ago Thursday (2/21) near Westminster at 8:00 a.m., the Sig Alert that was holding you up was this accident.

You have unlimited leverage with ithe nsurance company. If in fact you were hit, I assume you are dealing with HIS insurance (through YOUR agent) and not yours. Do NOT sign a medical realease until you are totally satisfied, car is repaired and the engine is checked out, or you get exacty the amount of money you want for a totaled vehicle, even if your requirement is higher than the market. Remember, regardless of the value of your car, fight to recover the cost for you to replace the car with a similar one. You will be amazed how an insurance company can sharpen their pencil in order to get you to sign a medical release. Often, people immediatley sign one and find that weeks later, the symptoms of injury begin to occur only to find they have no recourse.

^^^ This is extremely important. They'll be trying to get you to sign this immediately. Take your time, and make sure there's a clause that allows for $x of future treatment in case symptoms crop up later.

Brief update: The insurer (my insurer) is totaling the car. I sent them the build sheet so that they know exactly how the car was equipped. They had it appraised, checked whatever sources they check (N.A.D.A., Auto Trader, etc.), and came up with an actual cash value of $46.5k, with an additional $3,800 for tax. Does this look like a fair offer? Thanks!

How many miles were on your car?

I just bought a 03 C4S with similar options as yours (obviously not quite the same C2 vs. C4S, but similar) and with similar miles, 66K, for 43K. I'd say my car is in excellent condition on the outside and mechanically, and very good on the interior (minor wear and tear on the leather). So, the price doesn't strike me as off the mark. Good luck.

you want this car totaled period and yes that's a killer value the only thing that sux is your insurance will go up and this accident will be on your record for 3 yrs assumign CA laws are the same as WA state laws

I am confused. You stated that you were hit, so why is your insurance company doing anything other than collecting from the other guy's insurance company? If the accident was not your fault, then your insurance rates, etc should not go up because you are collecting from the other driver's insurance and not your own. If for some reason local law dictates something different, then part of the demand to close on settlement would include the additional insurance cost that you will incur. I would settle for nothing less that what it will cost me to replace the car (actual market price) and recover all other costs associated with the accident.

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In a perfect world, you'd think the insurance company, even if you are not at fault, won't do anything, but anytime they hear word that you got in a fender bender, they make a note of it and it may well impact your insurability risk moving forward. And in Dmitri's situation, he hit the guy in front of him so while it's not his fault since the dude behind him had him plow into the front of the car, the insurance company can easily say you should've been far enough behind him to account for the possibility your **** was gonna get smashed from the back. It's more art than science based on my experience dealing with insurance claims. It absolutely sucks. Bottom-line, drive safe and try to avoid/be lucky avoiding fender benders.

Even though this accident is someone else's fault, right now, I'm dealing with my own insurer, who is going to be pursuing the other drivers' insurers for their loss and my out of pockets. That means that I have to eat a $1,000 deductible for now. But, it also means that I don't have to hassle with the other drivers' carriers and what undoubtedly will be less than adequate coverage for this loss (which would kick the underinsured portion back to my insurer anyway). In California, my experience is that many (most) people only carry the minimum liability insurance limits - $15k injury to one person, $30k injury to all persons in a single accident, and $5k property damage. That's not enough to pay for a bumper on my car, let alone the damage to all four cars in the accident. So, all-in-all, I'd much rather my insurer pay me and and chase them. Hopefully, this won't affect (or dramatically affect) my rates. But, under the circumstances, I'm not sure that there's a better and more hassle-free way to handle this. Assuming the actual cash value is right, I'm about one phone call and a check away from resolution.

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Being the hardass I am when it comes to things like this, under no circumstances would I settle for less than what your think you deserve. Call your insurance company and tell them your want the price of a new car, rental etc from the other guy's company. In addition, ask your agent to ask the other insurance company how they want to pay for the medical tests you are going to get. Do they want the hospital to bill them directly? If you do not get satisfaction from your agent, do not sign any releases and get a lawyer. He or she will do everything for you, including recovering any legal fees. You should not have to pay any increase in insurance premiums either. You deserve to be made whole because it was not your fault. Irrespective of what the other driver's insurance coverage is, the other driver is still responsable for anything above the coverage. I had to pay for someone's blouse one time because she spilled a soda on it when I rear ended her. The insurance company is banking on you becoming frustrated and not knowing your rights. It's figured into their rates.

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It is a very common practice to use your own insurance company, especially if you are insured with one of the better ones like USAA. As long as the accident is judged to not be your fault it does not count against you. With 6 drivers in my family, we have had a few claims over the years where it was the other guys fault and in every case I used my company to handle the claim. They have a lot more leverage with the other company than I would as an individual. With USAA they have very rigid rules about how the car will be repaired. I have talked to a couple of body shops and they all tell me that with USAA and other similar companies there is no cutting corners. You don't get the same thing though with all companies. Totaling the car is always the best option if the damage is major. Normally you will get more from insurance then you could ever get selling the car on your own. They are not going to give you a new car though. For that you would have to sue the other guy or fake a medical injury. And if you do that, I hope you get caught and thrown in jail. Having an accident should not be an opportunity to reap a windfall.

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I was not aware that anyone here even suggested faking an injury. I guess reading was a weak point for you?

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I was being rhetorical, probably should not have used the "you". Actually the reference was based on the fact that you were the one who brought up the whole medical issue. I never did see the original poster or anyone else but you ever mention anything about injuries. It was just curious that you brought it up. It reminded me of a guy I knew who was always advising anyone who had an accident to go the medical route to get more money. Sorry, I probably should not have said it.

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Don't worry about it. My comment about seeking medical care was due to the fact that often, symptoms of serious injuries do not show up for weeks after the injury occurs. Many injuries, such as to the neck and back may appear to be just a slight sprain that goes away quickly but then is discovered as having been a serious, debilitating injury several years later.

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Dimitri, Looks like you got the resolution you wanted. As long as you satified with the valuation of your car, it is better to let your insurer handle the balance of the property damage claim. If you have rental car coverage with your insurer, they will reimburse you. If you do not, you will have to pursue the other drivers carrier. Lost time at work is also a recoverable cost (even if you took paid personal leave). While you do not believe you have a personal injury claim, I would not be in a rush to sign this waiver. Your are allowed to settle the property damage claim without a resolution to any personal injury claim. Hang on the PI claim just to keep everyone honest and preserve you rights to out of pocket and lost income claims.