Tracking your Porsche...Ooops Insurance claim, what would you do?

I was just thinking. I'm tracking my Porsche and get into an accident. What do I tell my insurance agent, hit & run in the parking lot. Is their special insurance for race days or am I @#$% out of luck if I ding my baby?

Most insurance companies cover it, just ask them.

Don't ask!!! Most don't cover it any more and they certainly won't if you ask! Get the full copy of your policy and read it. There are specialty insurance companies, www.americancollectorsins.com is what I used to have. I don't have it any more, I just decided that I won't crash. There are several threads in the history on this.

I just take my chances, everything you tell an ins co is shared with other companies via a data bank. I know what I would do, you can figure it out, but I sure wouldn't tell the ins co first.

Read your policy. If it is excluded consider purchasing supplemental coverage vs. taking the risk. My policy excludes "speed competitions," which I interpret to mean actual racing or, perhaps, time trials, but to mean that it covers driving school/DE.

Its been my personal exp talking with ins. companies that they WILL NOT cover it if they know it was track related. Search the history on this and there are many threads about it, including companies that cover track events for very reasonable costs, though with steep deductables.

I would purchase DE insurance and not even bother with your regular auto insurance company. People have posted stories about losing their auto insurance just for asking about DE insurance. My insurance company asked me specifically if I was going to use my 78SC for racing when I bought it.

I have USAA and it covers "Drivers Education" events. Our local chapter hosts DE events that would be covered by most policies but it is very important to understand a few things: 1. There is NO timing done. 2. There are no awards, points, etc. 3. There are instructors present 4. And the most important......the events are held to help you control your car when pressed to limits that would help you to avoid accidents when on the streets (theoretically). If I had to make a claim it would be something like this......."I was involved at an accident at a drivers education event" followed with some nervous laughter to see if the agent sees the humor and irony in what I just said.

Wouldn't advise committing insurance fraud, just sack up.....there are risks associated with this activity as we all realized last June

I went with Laurel , recommended by PCA. Cost about $1000 for 10 "events" (days) at the track. $5000 deductible. Marc

My experiences are similar to LVDELL's. I asked my Allstate agent about coverage and he told me it wouldn't be an issue as long as the conditions LV cited were applicable AND there was no competition. I later switched to GEICO and got the same answer. I'd recommend calling your agent BEFORE you go to the track so you know what's covered (and more importantly, what's NOT covered). There's a wide range in philosophies amongst track organizations. Some organizations encourage lap timing (they even make money from transponder rentals) while other groups (such as BMW CCA) will kick you out if they find your buddy timing you with a stop watch. Heaven only knows what they'd do if they found the driver operating a timing device of some sorts.

fraud is a tricky issue they find out you're lieing - you're in trouble. you get into a big accident at the track and you're in trouble. small ding, go to a parking lot, put it into a wall gently and add a little bit of car bits on the ground - you might get away with it whether it's worth risking jailtime is a question you must ask yourself....

Wow! That is pricey. Unless I am doing fender to fender racing, no thanks. That makes no sense for DE application. Besdies, is it "off the books" insurance or does it get reported to the national database as well (sorry, forgot the name)?

You raise an excellent point. When someone makes a fradulent claim, the consequencies could be far worse than the Insurance company denying the claim. The Insurance Company may turn the matter over to the justice department for investigation and prosecution. The most prudent course of action is to get your car insured for track events, and don't be surprised if the Insurance is costly.

Its not fraud if the policy is vague and you don't ask until after an incident. It is fraud if you say that your track accident really happened on the street. There is a pretty big difference between the two. When I asked Geico if I was covered, they sent the quesion to the underwriter, who got back to me a week later and said "No". Lesson learned, ask for a copy of the full policy and read it. That is the contract.

Darren, When you asked Geico, did you specify whether or not the event was timed, aimed at education, and/or involving competition?

Being in the insurance business, I find the topic interesting. It seems like a continuation of no one wanting to take responsibility for their own actions. The standard personal lines auto insurance product premium in no way contemplates the increased exposure from track events. If you own a p-car and want to track it then accept that it will come out of your pocket if you ding your p-car........of course living in CA you get a little paranoid about attorneys and pi suits.......so also remember that liability would also not be covered......and if YOUR negligence (why did you spin out in front of my client, causing my client to hit you and cause him bodily injury & property damage to his car) causes third party liabilty (spectators) that will come out of your pocket. Fraud is not the answer .......as stated by others, speciialty insurance does exist to take care of your car and damge to others

No, its not that no-one wants to take responsibility for their own actions, that misses the point entirely. The bigger issue here is that DE should be covered by insurance companies. I've had many claims from accidents on the street, but I've never damaged my car on the track. Because it is a controlled environment I think its less likely for me to damage my car on the track than off (my car is in the body shop now actually). I also have a significant amount of structured training (hundreds of hours) that makes me a way better driver than the average person with a license. I'm assuming because I don't have the statistics to back up my argument, and it seems like noone has them. Eventually someone will spend the time do do this, and answer the questions "1. Do DE drivers pose less of a risk on the street (how much less) and 2. Is a participant in DE more or less likely to have damage to their vehicle on the track vs. on the street." Insurance companies do this type of work all of the time, its the basis for their business. Also, its not true that policies do not contemplate this. Many policies strictly forbid on-track activities, and the USAA policy, as someone else mentioned, specifically allows it.

Yes, I explained that it was instructor-led training done at a race track designed to teach real-world driving skills. I think in the end this is a case of us being in the exception. If .0001% of their customers do DE its easier/cheaper to deny coverage than to think about it.

Calnca......Instead of a lecture and sounding like a true agent outline the various events and what would be "within" the language of the standard policy. Yes, wheel to wheel and fender to fender as you have stated "why did you spin out in front of my client, causing my client to hit you and cause him bodily injury & property damage to his car" would be one where you NEED specialty coverage. I AGREE. But......there are several of us that only participate in Driver's Education (DE) events. This involves skid pad exercises, braking exercises, slamom exercices, car control with/without and instructor on a closed course with NO fender to fender racing, no timing, etc (see my post above). See where I am going with that? Now, come down from your soapbox for just a minute and explain your stance. Just want to make sure it is NOT a blanket statement you are offering to cover ALL events.

But......there are several of us that only participate in Driver's Education (DE) events. This involves skid pad exercises, braking exercises, slamom exercices, car control with/without and instructor on a closed course with NO fender to fender racing, no timing, etc (see my post above). See where I am going with that? Now, come down from your soapbox for just a minute and explain your stance. Just want to make sure it is NOT a blanket statement you are offering to cover ALL events. I'm not in the Insurance business, but my expectation is that it would be prudent to determine whether or not your Insurance company covers DE events. Although as you point out that there's no racing at these events, cars are nevertheless still driven very aggressively. PDE in no way is comparable to the Drivers Education offered by most High Schools, so I believe that it would be risky to assume that it's covered. My guess would be that coverage for DE events will vary by Insurance company.

Well the post was titled "Tracking your Porsche"......and if you are using the vehicle on a closed course.....then you should not expect your normal day in day out personal lines auto insurance to cover it......there is specialized insurance to cover both the liability and physical damage associated with the closed course/racing exposure. Just to clarify....I'm NOT an agent, but a carrier underwriter..........back to the fraud issue......if consumers really knew how much of their insurance premiums for both HO and auto are to cover fradulant claims maybe they would think twice about seeking coverage to cover them when they take a "calculated risk" that backfires on them......and they then lie about the circumstances and then expect someone to take care of them......back to accepting responsibility for your own actions.

Do you even read? So you are saying that even if your auto insurance says they cover it, as with USAA, that you still shouldn't expect they will cover it?

Darren, see it they will put it in writing............if their attorneys allow the u/w to put that in writing I'd be pretty surprised. You have to understand most insurance companies think of something else when you say driver education.......they are not contemplating you learning how to power slide through the apex with PSM turned off. The only way I'd trust State Farm (my personal lines insurer) to pay any closed course losses, would be if I had it in writing, on their letterhead, specifically stating they will pay claims due to incidents while on a closed course for either instruction or competition. I'm just the underwriter......when we are asked a coverage question like "what if", we always refer the client to their own attorney to have them read the policy form and give their opinion......they get paid to do it.........surely there is some PI attorney on the forum who has a feel based on his litigation experience on how carriers will typically respond.

Best advise is to READ your policy and see what it says. MANY companies have updated their coverage exclusions to any incident occurring WITHIN A FACILITY DESIGNED FOR RACING. (i.e. Track!) My company just did this and I'm now reconsidering my '06 track days!

If DE events were so safe, then why are people so desperate for DE insurance? If it's so safe, then nothing is gonna ever happen- right? C'mon folks- your either covered or your not. If you aren't, then track at your own risk, and take responsibility if something does happen. Don't drive up my insurance rates because you tracked your car(s) without insurance. Damn folks- no need for insurance fraud.. just nut up and buy some damn insurance like responsible adults!

OMFG. Noone is advocating insurance fraud, I don't know where that started from. The amount of people doing DE and the number of insurance claims paid to DE people is INSIGNIFICANT compared to insurance fraud in general and has no effect on yours or anyone else's insurance. Insurance is a tricky thing because you need to evaluate your own personal risk tolerance. If you can afford to buy a new car if you wreck one at the track, then you might not need to have track insurance because you assume the risk yourself. The decision to get insurance on a wide range of things depends on your own personal financial situation and your personal risk tolerance. Everything in life is a balance.

the best way to track your car is to track one you can wad up and buy another in cash within an hour or two. dont depend on insurance (track insurance is another story).... some ins may pay, some may not. the policies are often vague. you ask for clarification you risk being cancelled. you wreck, they MAY pay and subsequently cancel your policy. i dont trust any insurance company. i have totalled one car on track. i didn't bother calling my ins. i just parted it out and bought another.

that's why I track my porsche.......!!!! If i crash it i will buy one same day within hours so that I won't miss the track day... (I am only jocking....) Insurance companies in U.K. do send photographers to take photos of all cats attending track day events..... imagine why....... the worst case scenario then is to track your car....go back home and after h15 - 20 days have an incident in public road!!!! they might deny refunding cause of the attendance in a track day....!!! they want to take money from you.... of course they do not want to give them away!!!

they want to take money from you.... of course they do not want to give them away!!! __________ you got that right. here in sunny CA, we are not a no fault state, so even if you had some mishap on public street, and it's really not your fault, you will still be blamed for a % of the mishap. and ultimately your premium increase, sometimes small, sometimes big. we never win.

I was just thinking. I'm tracking my Porsche and get into an accident. What do I tell my insurance agent, hit & run in the parking lot. Maybe the remark was made tongue in cheek, but maybe not. I do agree with you however that if there is any fraud by guys who destroy their cars at track events, it is infinitesimal. All of the guys that I know who track their cars have the same attitude as the posters on this forum; if their cars are damaged at a track event they either repair them or replace them without getting Insurance companies involved. The biggest area of fraud IMO, are the kids who buy high performance cars and get their parents to ensure them. About a month ago the driver of a new M3 ran a stop sign and collided with the SUV of one of my coworkers. The driver was a teenager who was specifically excluded from driving the M3.

Re-read your policy Dell. I have USAA and they have new wording in the policy that excludes DE's. If you have some information to the contrary I would love to hear about it, however it is my understanding that DE's are not covered by USAA

I just asked mine and got a special rider on my renewal stating that if I did any mods that increased the car power my insurance would be void. Also got a rider that explicitely state that if I tracked my car my entire insurance would be void..on or off the track....so much for just asking.

u are on the list now..... and u do know that ins. company share info. with each other.

My GEICO policy states that they exclude competitive or timed events or practicing for such an event. Very clear to me, DE or lapping day is neither and therefore covered.

Good catch Ray, I just got my renewal in the mail. I will go read it over.

I have USAA and called to inquire... Big NO! The previous year I had gotten a Yes!

I'm glad y'all called and verified. But, know that they probably entered that info into that damn database that logs all that info. At some point when they want it will be used against you....yes, just for inquiring.

My GEICO policy states that they exclude competitive or timed events or practicing for such an event. Very clear to me, DE or lapping day is neither and therefore covered. ___________ not so fast. i know of ppl who got covered by geico for track mishaps. but that doesn't mean you will. and what you read above is NOT clear not all. some DE and lapping days are timed. i mean how does one define timed event really? let say you and i showed up at one event, and i decide to put a timing becon out. then you had a mishap. somehow your ins. found a witness who was at the event and saw the becon... but didn't know that your had no timer in your car... sorry, i am just playing devil's advocate. it's much better to get pissed at me raining on your parade now rather than finding out the hard way later.

Good grief - do you guys swap companies frequently? My wife and her family has been with our agent for almost 20 years, and my parents have been with their agent since the 60's. Neither would EVER consider reporting us for inquiries into this sort of thing, and both would gladly look for ways to help us navigate the companies rules & regulations.

That's the difference between a broker and dealing directly with the carrier. With Geico and USAA for example you are dealing directly with the carrier and clearly they will always protect their own interests...with a broker they are a representative of the insured. Being in the claims business I enjoy these types of threads. Here's my advice...always be extremely polite and honest with any adjuster. They deal with fraud and inflated claims all day and will go the extra mile for you if you just take the time to be decent and honest.

raclaims hit the nail right on the head. I have been with USAA since I was 15 and got my learner's permit. 18 years later I would NEVER change a thing......they have the BEST rates, the best customer service, the speediest claim service, and the best part all--the send a refund check for a % of your policy premium every year based on surplus profit made over prejection b/c of lower claims reporting. The only dowside? just as raclaims said.....broker versus carrier.

So the bottom line I'm hearing is that nobody can name a regular (non-specialty) insurance carrier who covers DE, not even USAA. AND if you ask whether you are covered (esp. for non-agent represented policies) you may be subjected to undue scrutiny. There are many people still telling new drivers at the track that since it�s not racing/timed that they will be covered. This is FALSE and we all have a responsibility to make sure that people are well informed of the risks.

DE's are designed so that accidents should be covered by your standard insurance policy. No timing, controlled passing, instructors. Racing is different and rarely covered. Ask the question. State Farm covers accidents for DE�s. Note that it is very rare in a DE to have an accident with another car. I have never seen this happen. Most likely you hit something stationary or run the car off the track. If you choose a track that has lots of runoff (Willow Springs in SoCal is one example), you generally don�t do much damage. I have also seen a 993 Turbo blow a tire and tumble, totaling the thing. I understand that insurance picked up the tab for this mishap. The bigger issue that I found out the hard way is that if your have a mechanical failure. Porsche voids the warranty. Autocrosses, any track event, and even PAG-sponsored events all VOID the warranty. And 996TT�s have weak transmissions, but this isn�t the thread to discuss this �

Mike -- Please read the thread. What you said above is just plain not true.

Not sure I understand the lecture or the tone. I have been to DE's. I have seen a car a tumble several times at turn 2 at Willow Springs. The damage was covered by insurance. I stand by my post. How am I misinformed?

So who do you all recommend for track/DE/Driver's skills insurance?