IMSB +1 for PCNA

My 2004 C4S has an IMSB failure at 37k miles. I bought it private party in Oct 2011 with 23k miles on the clock. I did catch it before there was a catastrophic failure, it still starts and runs seemingly fine, but a seat of the pants had me feeling that something was wrong, and a quick listen with the engine deck lid open reavealed an odd yet inconsistent sound, similar to a pulley failing on an accessory. So I parked it and had it flat bedded to the dealer. At first the tech said it couldn't be the IMSB because the engine was dry, running, and we weren't standing in a lake of oil. He was convinced that a failed IMSB doesn't provide enough of a warning to prevent a total failure. A quick drop of the oil filter housing revealed a substantial amount of metal particles, add the magnet test and the tech was convinced enough to tell everyone to NEVER start the car again. There is a bit to the story, including my attempt to continue the 3rd party warranty, even left a check for $4,600 and change with the dealers finance department in January - but things didn't work out with the warranty company and the warranty was never issued. Loss of my substantially paying job shortly thereafter had me not thinking about cars or warranties. Bottom line, I learned yesterday that Porsche agreed to good will a complete engine and the dealer estimates my out of pocket for labor and fluids will be around $2k. Fine with me as I was praying that we could save the engine with the LNE retrofit and expected to pay around $2k for that anyway. I was very concerned though about the metal that definitely would be circulating through the oiling system, and not being a guy that could have the LNE installed and then pass the car off without full disclosure, I was trying to accept that even if we caught it in time, I'd always be nagged by the "what if" or would need to sell the car at a significant discount. My perspective is now forever changed, I fought off the fear of the IMSB on my 04 C2 for five years and reluctantly replaced it last fall with 75K miles on the clock while the clutch was being replaced. That bearing appeared to be perfect. Yet here I am with a perfectly maintained car with 37K miles on the clock with an IMSB failure. No rhyme or reason to this issue. I am grateful to the dealer, when I requested that they attempt to get Porsche to good will some dollars, any dollars at all, they told me that they highly doubted that Porsche would agree to anything. 9 year old car, purchased private party - no real obligation on their part. It wasn't a slam dunk, Porsche asked about my length of Porsche ownership, my loyalty to dealership service, wanted service records and even required a current car fax. As many have said here, you can play the statistics game all you want, until it happens to you. I feel soooooooooo humbled at the moment. But I am also extremely grateful and feel lucky enough to maybe buy a couple of lottery tickets.

All's well that ends well, sorta. Glad you caught it in time!

congrats on a positive outcome. however did I just read that " reluctantly replaced it last fall with 75K miles on the clock while the clutch was being replaced. That bearing appeared to be perfect." - are you saying the replacement bearing failed? What bearing was it?

That's qutie a story and thanks for sharing. Glad to hear the great outcome. Could you describe the noise you heard more? Also, do you think the metal shavings would have triggered the IMS guardian if it was there?

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Sorry for the confusion - two different cars - I replaced the IMSB in the C2 at 75k miles. That car is touching 80K miles now and still runs fantastic - always was a strong running car. It's the lower mileage C4S that just had the original IMSB fail. Of course, the best scenario would be to not have this issue at all. But I was fully aware of the risk when I purchased the C4S. The dealer did say that owning two Porsches might have helped him sway PCNA, they told me that originally the good will claim was denied but they followed some appeal process or something. Either way, I am fine with the outcome.

Your car has to be included in the most recent "class action event" that Porsche decided to address? Your C4S is definately single row, hasn't been in service for 10 years and by all accounts should have a vin that is listed on the impacted cars list (can't see why it wouldn't be listed). My point being, that is probably why Porsche decided to good wiill the engine. I realize that since you are not the original owner and you bought it from a private party so you are only eligible for 25% reimburement (if memory serves). Porsche is probably getting some heat from this class action event so the goodwill may be "goodwill" they are hoping is directed at them.

Very interesting story and glad you shared! This engine caught prior to failure, represents an excellent analysis test bed for Porsche. They can analyze multitude of conditions of your engine, as is and add to their IMSB lessons learned. It would be interesting to know who made the IMSB in your C2 (long-lasting) and the one in your C4S (much shorter lifetime for whatever reasons). Just curious what this would reveal.

John, good for you. Congrats. What engine did they use for the replacement in your 2004 C4S? What's to keep that one from going "boom"??

One theory is lack of use. C2 ~10k yr, C4 ~ 4 k

Did you add it to the poll at the top of the forum?

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I remember reading about your problem when you first posted, so glad Porsche has relented to do the right thing. I am sure the lawsuit helped Porsche decide. Interesting you mention the lottery correlation. As low as the chance of IMSB failure is, I am sure it is much higher than the chances of winning the lottery. Maybe someone will start a poll to see how many have a oem IMSB & buy lottery tickets regularly. Glad you ended up winning this time!

Wow!!! Way to go for your Dealer to Stand Up!!! I have heard of other Dealers doing the same "Good Will" replacement. Congrats on the new Engine

Amazing story and even better ending. John I am very happy for you and its good to see PCNA standing up and doing the right thing.

Aware the cars tip or Manual ??

Were the cars tip, or manual ?

Metal particles = automatic IMS failure? This is the problem I have as dealers don't even take the time to properly diagnose and/or attempt to repair and just chalk it up to a blown motor or IMS issue and recommend a new motor. Then it gets posted to the Internet with these assumptions and then that's where we're at today. I'm glad Porsche decided to step up, but to them it's chump change at there cost and pales in comparison to the potential repercussions they might face in PR nightmare if this kind of thing went viral on the web. My $.02 Either way I'm glad things worked out for OP.

Alp, cmon bro, don't rain on his parade and good outcome with Porsche. Your so negative (or is that positive?) about IMSB failures. Sorry to read about the failure but relieved to see that Porsche is going to cover most of it. Great catch on your part. Good for you! P.S. I would love to see the bearing from this engine but I know we never will.

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Both cars are manual.

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I agree KK - I don't think we will ever see the bearing but I will do my best to be there when they do the swap. The tech assigned to the car is typically interested enough to check things out. But.... originally I was told that they couldn't request anything from PCNA until they were positive that it was the IMSB which would require removing the trans at minimum. The trans wasn't scheduled to be dropped until today yet on Monday they already had approval and the car is not disassembled. Bummer is that they have yet another new service writer and he is less than happy with me being in the shop so I am not sure if I will be able to be in the shop for the swap - but I will have my little camera with me just in case. They expect to do the swap mid next week. Ideally I'd prefer to not have this happen and to not have a car with a replacement engine. But given the alternatives and the fact that I buy these things to drive them, I am grateful that the car will be road worthy, hopefully for many miles and years to come.

Chances of you being actually in the shop area where the work is being performed is slim unless the service manager for whatever reason doesn't understand the liabilities and/or the insurance. Most insurance for shops have various restrictions that can forbid customers for being on the premises where the work is being performed. Most will only let you in if they have to show you something or point something out but highly unlikely that someone is going to be able to actually watch a certain procedure being performed. That has been my experience but every shop is different.

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In a sense I agree with you. However, regardless of the root cause I have a bum motor in a car with 37k miles. Being selfish here...I highly doubt, nor would I truly expect, a manufacturer to step up to cover cost of repairs on a 9 year old car, especially after a private purchase. PCNA seems fairly quick to step up in the case of the IMSB, not so sure they would step up if the engine was failing for any other reason. My initial thought was a chain tensioner on the way out, the sound at first was reminscent of a chain slap when a chain tensioner failed on my old 911, except the sound was so sporadic that it didn't make any sense, no rythm to the sound at all. The car would sound perfect at idle for a few minutes at a time and then there would be three or four intermittent noises, like someone was inside the engine tapping on the block with a hammer and then go quiet again. It didn't seem to make any difference whether it was at idle or under load. I am tempted to agree with the tech's diagnose because before we shut her down permanently the sound did increase in frequency and the often mentioned "marbles in a coffe can" noise appeared and became increasingly steady. Either way, we will most likely never know, but I will do my best to urge the tech to at least pull the IMS retainer for a quick look before he drops the motor for the swap. I highly doubt he will go along with my request to pull the bearing, there will be some B.S. reason why Porsche won't allow that.

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In the past I had free reign in the shop - purchased the C2 as a CPO from this dealer in 2007 and gave them all of my service work. I was in the shop when they replaced the IMSB on my C2 and was able to observe the process. You are correct though, typically insurance regulations are the issue, and rightly so.

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I agree with this and my comments were more or less directed at the historical nature of how Porsche dealers have dealt with this in the past. I'm not even entirely sure if Porsche techs(master or not) have the ability and/or resources to even repair these motors in house. Maybe some but definitely not the majority based on my talks with a local Porsche master tech. Yes the bottom line regardless of what really went wrong is that you have a bum motor and you should consider yourself lucky that PCNA stepped up in a timely fashion with minimal headaches in your situation. I'm glad that you were able to get this kind of resolution with them. Please keep us all updated.

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You & Porsche do not want any tampering with the evidence! Porsche may actually still want to learn from their mistakes, although I think that ship has sailed & sunk. Either way disassembly is the best way to determine suitability for rebuilding.

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Progress update - well, no call from the dealer to let me know when the motor arrived but I was in the area today so decided to stop by to remind them that I wanted to be there when the trans was dropped. Car was in the shop, on the lift, and when I got to the service desk the service writer informed me that the engine arrived and I should have the car mid next week. I had some questions and the response to each question was with the deer in the headlights look and a generic answer of "the engine came with everthing we needed" and "if we thought you needed anything else we'd let you know". Finally got the guy to let me talk to the tech as it was the end of their day and I wouldn't be holding them up from working. Turns out the new engine is already installed and they are just waiting for a gasket for the A/C hose. I was able to confirm that the A/C compressor is the only component being used from my old engine, everything else including the AOS, coil packs, and even spark plugs are new. They did have to swap one of the hoses to the airbox for my PSE, but that was it. So, the old engine was sitting there and I could see that the IMS and RMS seals were 100% dry, not even a hint of seepage. The tech told me that the clutch pack and flyweel looked surprisingly as new. Good to know as the previous owner and his Porsche dealership did tell me that the IMS, RMS, and clutch had been replaced 500 miles before I purchased the car, the car had a minor RMS leak and the previous owner decided to do the IMS and clutch as "while they were in there" items. Feeling good that what I was told is true. The tech also told me that the oil was "loaded with a ton of metal" so I gently nudged him to pull the IMS retainer since there was no external indication that the IMSB was compromised. As expected, the tech told me he could not touch the engine unless Porshe issued instructions to further diagnose the problem, which they had not. I then noticed that the head on the right side of the engine - direction oriented as sitting in the drivers seat - appeared to be somewhat wet with what looked like seepage or as in the old days we would call crankcase blow-by. This is also the side of the engine where I thought the noises initially originated. The tech didn't respond and I decided to not push the issue. My unsubstantiated opinion is that we don't know and will never know for certain that the IMSB failed. All we know for certain is that the engine was on it's way out and the car will have a new engine courtesy of Porsche with labor on me. Disappointed that the engine is in and I didn't get a chance to see the clutch and flywheel on my own, but I do trust what the tech told me and they are ahead of schedule by about one week. Tech says car could be done tomorrow, service writer still says mid next week. But then again he didn't know if a new AOS was included or what I meant by checking the spring action of the flywheel. And when I asked about motor mounts he said "I think so because the engine came with a new cross member" ( thus the permission to talk directly to the tech ). The tech repeated the theory that cars not driven regularly and to full operating temperature create moisture problems and once corrosion begins it simply can not be stopped. So, even though I drove it over 1k miles per month with oil changes under 5k mile intervals, I most likely inherited an existing issue.I do know that the previous owner drove it less than 1100 miles in the year before I bought it. The tech also said there are very few reported engine failures in Germany as the cars are purchased more for daily drivers than they are in the U.S. He also stated that tracked cars have an even lower incidence of failure. This tech is new to me, never worked with him before, but I felt pretty comfortable after speaking with him. He is a Porsche owner, particpates in DE events, and is a certified tech inspector. He encouraged me to try a DE with my C2, complete with the warning that if the DE bug bites me it will be a costly addiction. I have the time now that I am not working, but not working comes with some financial cautions as well. Man, I hope I can find a balance between work and having time to live in the future. My old job paid very well but all the money really did was allow me to move at a frantic pace with no time for much other than "the job". I used to joke that if it wasn't for the ability to drive 60 miles round trip each day in a Porsche there would be no joy in my day at all. I looked forward to going to the office because I had a legimate reason to drive. I'll update again after I have her back on the road. And if anyone has any knowledge of engine break in requirements, if there are any, or any other info on a factory replacement engine, I'd appreciate the info. Happy motoring to all.

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I've heard of this theory before from a UK forum. In this instance the owner's wife used the car regularly but over a short distance, not allowing moisture to be completely burnt off.

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Are you saying this was not the original IMSB that failed? Was this "replacement" an LNE bearing or stock? Just trying to understand if OEM or afttermarket bearing failed... also how many miles on this "new" IMSB did you put on? thx

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To piggyback on Viper's question: If you take a 996 with its original engine (no matter the year) to a Porsche dealer and ask them to replace the IMSB on your dime what do they put in? Their reman engines for the last several years have shipped with the newer larger bearing that you have to split the case to change indicating that the original part as fitted is not considered up to the job in their opinion, so what do they do and warranty for an older engine? I'm just curious as a technicality, nothing else.

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This car had the original IMS bearing, it was the seal that had been replaced. The orignal design of both the RMS (rear main seal) and IMS seal (intermediate shaft seal) were prone to oil leaks. Several redesigns later and Porsche got the seals right, thus most cars did have these seals replaced at some point in their history. My dealer uses the LNE retrofit bearing when they do replace the bearing. From what I am told, the replacement of the bearing is not an authorized Porsche service procedure and the only warranty on the bearing is from LNE and only covers the part. There is no official Porsche warranty on an older engine unless the car is still under certified pre-owned warranty, which would be rare given the age of these cars. My engine is being provided by Porsche under their good will process - which is never a guarantee but seems to be happening more frequently these days. The replacement engine does include a 2 year, 24k mile warranty and yes, it does have the larger bearing that requires the case to be split should it ever need replacement. I would assume that given the proposed class action settlement offered by Porsche and their good will replacement of some engines that they do indeed acknowledge the problem. After all is said and done, I own two 2004 996's and quite frankly if I had the cash I wouldn't hesitate to purchase another one. The only difference would be that I would assure the bearing is replaced and then simply enjoy the hell out of the driving experience.

So does your VIN correspond to the list posted in the 996 forum as one of the cars being at risk?

That seems like a very big mistake but glad you got a new engine. Congrats!

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Yes it does. However, according to the dealer PCNA never referenced that in their decision. They wanted to know my history of Porsche ownership, dealer service history backed up with records, and a current car fax. Technically the settlement, if and once accepted, would have entitled me to 25% of the cost. 75% is still a chunk larger than I could handle right now, so again, I am grateful. I could rant about paying labor, especially since I left a check to pay in full for a 3rd party warranty that wasn't processed in a timely enough fashion. But hey, I am actually pretty excited about getting the car back and might even con the wife into agreeing that I take a solo road trip for a week or two now that I have the time (I simply will avoid the topic of road trip expenses while we have no income) I agree, I did ask the previous owner why he went out of pocket for a new clutch pack when the dealer told him the original was like new yet he didn't do the IMSB at the same time. He told me he wasn't aware that he should and that the mechanic never mentioned it. I have to give the previous owner his props though, he definitely over maintained the car in all other areas, perhaps not as much as you because I did see a speck or two of dust on the old engine sitting in the shipping rack, but then again that could be from the 14k miles I put on the car in the past year. He did change the oil 3 times in one year with a total of 1100 miles driven, and he even used Mobil 1. The car had a new interstate battery when he bought it, but he was an OEM believer kind of guy so he replaced it with Porsche spec OEM battery. And proper N spec tires, he went way out of his way to source two new N1 rear tires to match the N1's on the front. He was definitely krazy in my kind of way. Fingers crossed that this engine gets me some trouble free miles for quite some time. Should have the car back early next week. Just got back from helping my son close on his first new car, he was so excited and sort of apologetic for being such a PIA through the process. We went out to dinner and it turns out the waitress just got her first new car earlier today from the same dealer. I couldn't help myself, I said " wow, this is great, you both lost your virginity at XX motors". Luckily the waitress had a great sense of humor and, well, my kid knows me ................. he doesn't turn as bright red as he used to when I say dumb stuff. When we were leaving he just stood in the parking lot staring at his brand new car and I thought he was going to jump up and down in excitement... I hugged him and said, "I know, I know". Luckily for me he can't drive a manual - otherwise he might learn the truth about cars - "Porsche - there is no substitute". I had a blast in the C2 on the way down and back today - was so happy to have a back up Porsche, would have been a long and boring ride otherwise.

New engine in and car is back on the road. Labor on me came to $2,200 after some negotiation yet still higher than I expected after getting a quote of 16 hours shop time at $105.00 pr hr. I give up totally on the new service writer so I spoke to the dealers service manager. He said the "estimate" was before they realized that the DME wasn't directly compatible with the new engine and it took them about four hours to get the DME to read the oil pressure sending unit, which he stated is in a different location on this "newer design". I'll spare you all the details of what I feel was a senseless and illogical diiscussion. But I will note that I called their attention to the obvious use of my passengers seat as a parts bin. Although I only drove her about 25 miles so far I must say she does run extremely strong and I don't think my C2 has a leg up on the C4S anymore. I'm heading out in a bit for a longer range cruise. Dealer is not aware of any break in requirements, just drive it for 1,000 miles and bring it back for a visual check for leaks. No paper work other than the receipt and dealer says that's all I need because it is in Porsche's global database because it is considered a warranty repair. When I force myself to look on the bright side - it could have been much, much worse. Sure I prefer a car with it's original equipment, but when I look at what I would have needed to invest on the preventative items, I am confident I would have spent well beyond what I did on the the labor charges alone for the engine swap. And boy does it look pretty to open the engine bay lid and see everthing so clean and shiny, probably as close to a brand new Porsche as I will ever get. So, I will maintain my attitude of gratitude on this one. Thanks all for participating in the discussion.

John, you got a brand new engine for $2200, thats a win. You now have the perfect car. Enjoy!

Good to hear it's all back together and going well! If it matters, I have no qualms about having a new engine in my car relative to the one that it left the factory with, it made the car more attractive to me when I got it rather than less. I was actually quite thrilled to learn that a replacement engine replaces pretty much everything that is attached to it...It's not like they couldn't easily swap the ancillaries while the two engines are sitting side by side in the shop out of the car. Basically you get to start over with much of the maintenance / wear items, which will probably remediate a chunk of that $2200 in labor over the next few years.

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That is quite a story. It's a good thing this is not common. I did the IMS upgrade as well and would be bummed if that happened.

Update - 200 miles on her so far and practicing restraint, I think she really, really wants to run but I'm holding her back to about 4500 rpm for now. Had a momentary sinking feeling yesterday morning when the idiot light on the temp gauge began flashing but temp gauge read as normal, then a warning message "engine blower fan fail" came on with an audible chime. Never ever saw that one before. Drove it straight to the dealer, fortunately I left my C2 there "just in case". Swapped cars for the day, picked up the C4S last night and took her for an 80 mile drive and so far so good. Dealer said the problem was with a grommet that holds the fan connector which had come loose and they had to wait for the engine to cool down before they could reattach it, thus the reason for keeping the car for the day. Confident enough at this point that both cars are back home. I am going to take the C4S to an appointment near philly tomorrow - will be sure to pack my AAA card - just in case.