Possible Leverage for failed IMS/engine replacement

I saw this on another forum. http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...s-failure.html Has everyone/anyone filed a complaint with NHTS about their blown engine caused by IMS failure? Seems like there should be more than 6 of them. Before everyone claims "It's not a safety issue" There are a number of motorcycles that have been recalled for "engine can stop abruptly with no warning, possibly causing loss of control and dangerous traffic conditions" How about a stranded car with a 9qt oil slick behind it? "MY 04 Boxster (58K) just suffered what appears to be IMS failure (still awaiting postmortem). This is a defect which should have led to a recall, and Porsche dealer employs have admitted as much to me. Recalls are triggered by complaints to the NHTSA. NHTSA complaints and investigations can be researched at their website: http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Owners . Complaints can easily be filed there. Between MY 2000 and 2010 there were only 6 IMS failures reported with std or S Boxsters: 1 in 02, 4 in 03, 1 in 04 - not enough to trigger an investigation, much less a recall. I assume this is the tip of the iceberg. If everyone with IMS failures went to that website and filed a complaint, perhaps an investigation might be triggered. The person I talked to at NHTSA, when I described the IMS failure, said "tell your friends". Everybody who had the IMS fail should complain to the NHTSA. Hopefully it can trigger an investigation and force Porsche to recall the engines."

Looks like it really is a low percentage of cars get this.

Really only 6 failures in 10 years. The OMG! IMS FAILED ! MY ENGINE IS TOAST!! owners must be posting multiple times on every forum. Folks are always advocating for a class action suit. Here is leverage that does not cost anything except a few minutes filling out an online form.

This department contacted me on October 21, 2009 with a ton of questions, which I answered in detail. They contacted me again about four months ago with more questions.

What was the gist of the inquiry? Did you give them your statistics?

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We don't have statistics.. Because the elements required to gather such information accurately do not exist. No one knows how many engines failed under warranty, how many were misdiagnosed, or how more importantly exactly how many engines were built. Thats why I never post those numbers and always disagree with any percentages I see posted. I told them that we average 4 IMS Failure calls/ emails per week. Thats all I could tell them.

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How interesting. Way to add substance and detail to this thread.

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Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you mention a time or two that about 10% of M96 engines experience "IMS" related failures?

Exactly YOUR statistics. One Porsche speciality shop. Not all 996-86-97 etc.

I would guess that the number of IMS issues increase as the cars get older. So for me the IMS upgrade was a simple way to address the issue and I needed a new clutch and RMS anyway. I do not believe it is a mass problem with xx% of all car having IMS failure but maybe it will be with the cars getting older. It seems that people have no problem doing regular maint on their car, i.e. belts, AOS, water pump, plugs....I think we should just look at replacing the IMS as scheduled maint like a clutch. IMHO

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No. The article written by Jim Pasha of Excellence Magazine in December of 2008 mentioned this number, but it was the number that Jim had come up with. When he asked me for a number, I told him the same thing I posted here and that the number could not be calculated accurately. I am VERY careful not to divulge any of these numbers in phone chats or emails/ postings because I will be quoted over and over again for years. Like I said, the elements of the equation that are required do not exist. I have seen numbers from 5% to 25% but have no idea how they were based and I do not know how Jim Pasha based his 10% number either. He passed away while finishing the article, so we can't shoot him an email to ask him..

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wow, a little sensitive?

Flat Six does not have THE answer. He only can tell his shop's experience. If we tell every poster that starts with, "The OMG! IMS FAILED ! MY ENGINE IS TOAST!! Why hasen't Porsche been sued to oblivion...??" to log it with NHTSA and take 5 minutes to fill out a report of the failure we might be able to get some Porsche attention. http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Owners

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Exactly. We don't have the numbers and know that we don't, which is the reason that I don't even try to post the stats. Being M96 specialists we receive most of the failure calls from the US.. Typically someone has a failure, has never heard of the problems and immediately performs a Google search on the topic. Then our website pops up at the top of the list as the authority and they call us for info... Nothing more and nothing less.

I tried to compile data in Soloporsche forum We have more than 60 engine blown documented from Soloporsche users. But after discuss it deeply, look through internet, talk to specialist, engineers from Porsche motorsport, nobody knows about any percentage It happens.... that's all One of the things I discovered was that there are no IMS failures documented in any Porsche forum concerning to m97 engines with reinforced bearing/shaft with larger diameter. I don't know if they could fail. I'm not an expert but I searched it and nobody knew about any case I found several blown engines MY08 due to cilinder crack

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just from IMS only?

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50 were IMS failures. Nevertheless I know that several of those IMS failures were track cars

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But for cars with the newer IMS and those who've had the engines replaced by Porsche don't have that as a realistic option. The IMS can't be replaced without a tear down of the engine so it's more than just maintenance.

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I'd be more than willing to bet that many of those 50 failures were actually erroneously blamed on the IMSB.

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wow, you seem to have a hard on for this topic. I'll throw your own comments back at you. If you have some evidence to the contrary, post it. Otherwise, perhaps you should bow out gracefully

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why don't you just take the other side of his bet?

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Unless someone starts a "Pics of chicks in bikinis with the perfectly fine IMSB that I removed from my car" thread, I seriously doubt this topic will give me a hard on. Our very own resident Messiah on this topic has stated on several occasions that many engine failures are blamed on the IMSB when in fact the actual cause was not the bearing. I'd be willing to bet that out of 50 failures blamed on the IMSB, a number of them have been misdiagnosed. Care to wager, say $1000.00? BTW, why are you posting here? Do you have a normally aspirated M96/M97 engine. Are you thinking of purchasing one in the future? As far as bowing out gracefully, I think not.

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^^^+1^^^ Given the proliferation of these types of threads on this subject and the ridiculous numbers and percentages of failures thrown out there by some, there should be many 996 rollers for sale. The prohibitively high cost to replace a grenaded engine, especially when considered as a percentage of the value of the repaired car, should guarantee that there would be a steady supply of rollers out there, if in fact IMSB failure is as big an issue as some would have you believe. I'd like to buy a 996 roller, yet I am unable to locate a single one for sale. Something does not add up here.

^^^ go away you have yet to little more then badger people, my suggestion is you don't replace your bearing,problem solved! What other people do with their own cars is not you concern. I think I see the problem, as to why this bothers you so much. 801 post and you still haven't cut loose with some cash for a membership? Cheapskate?

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Sure, I'll bet $1000...now, about proving that...you've got diddly, I've got diddly. In other words, you have no clue how those engines failed. Why would this gentlemen lie? Nevertheless, a failed engine is a failed engine...and whether its an ims bearing or not, you're still screwed. Why am I posting here? specifically to **** you off, generally because I enjoy talking about the mechanical nature of engines, which just so happen to be attached to porsches in this case. I didn't realize one needed to own a m96/7 or want to buy one in order to post here. You say percentages are ridiculous...and your reasoning for why they are ridiculous is because you haven't found a roller yet. now THATs ridiculous

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WTF does this even mean? Not only is your reading comprehension atrocious but I cannot even understand your posts. I am not badgering anyone and I WILL NOT replace my bearing. I couldn't care less if other 996 owners replace their bearing or not. I simply do not like all the B.S. that is spewed on this forum about this topic by certain people who either have a conflict of interest or are trying to make themselves feel better after spending their hard earned cash to replace a perfectly fine bearing.

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What was that quote I once read on here about arguing with idiots? I'm out...

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Good for for you! You ruined another otherwise useful thread. Bye bye

Hi. I am brand new to this site, and I did not go to bed last night with a potential IMS faiure hanging over my head. My '03 996 C-2 with only 18k miles is at my Porsche dealer where I will hear today if the scary noise is IMS related or not. If an IMS bearing failure is the case, my question is how many owners out there have had Porsche stand behind there product with a replacement engine? Even though it's an out-of-warranty case, any truly reputable manufacturer would still make it right. I know many may want to post the "you are dreaming...." reply, and perhaps this is the case. But I would prefer to proceed with my Porsche-positive attitude and give them every opportunity to make this right and maintain me as a Porsche customer for life. So if your Porsche has suffered an IMS failure and Porsche has taken care of it (remember, in an out-of-warranty scenario), please post a reply. That would be very helpful. Thabk you.

Ugh. < sigh >

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Hi and Welcome to Rennlist where we LOVE chatting about IMS failures. Are you the original owner of your car?

<cough> Sorry Marc, suppose that first cup hasn't kicked in yet.

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I'm with ya IMS threads give me chest pain

Marc, Thanks for the welcome. I bought the CPO car in 2004 with 6k miles on it. A little add'l info. I have followed and in most cases halved all of the Porsche recommended PM schedules at my local dealer so I have been no less than meticulous in my care for the car. This includes driving it regularly with a wide range of speeds, gears and even though the car has such low miles on it, it does get driven regularly and from cold to normal op temps. So if the IMS failure is indeed my case, then I am going to give Porsche the opportunity to make it right and go through the process on my own.

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I would not expect much, if any, help from PCNA on this.

Why dont we just have mods start a post on here, 6speed, Pelican, and any other Porsche forum that has a link that leads people to that site and make it a sticky. I would say one with a title that "pops" a little more. Perhaps something along the lines of: "Ims failure? Fill out this information for possible class action!"

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+1000

Just brought my '01 996 with 54K miles into the shop with an apparent IMS failure. Haven't yet opened things up yet to see the extent of the damage, but it's not looking good. I am (OK was) a guy who enjoyed driving the car immensely but I haven't been one you could classify as an enthusiast. I only heard of this potential issue a few weeks ago when a friend sent me an article on the IMS Guardian. It got me thinking that I should look into installing one over the winter for peace of mind. Guess I am a little late... We'll see where things go here, but I find it incredibly disappointing (OK infuriating) that such a serious design deficiency in these engines isn't being dealt with properly by Porsche. All my driving life, I always looked to Porsche as a company that really knew how to build an engine...reality check time for me. When I first read about the IMS issues, I figured that we're talking about high mileage cars, or those that are tracked or driven hard. But, that is not the case. In my situation, I put roughly 5K miles on it each year, drive it reasonably (we do all love to let it run from time to time), and faithfully change the oil each December before I put it away for the winter. I had no advance warning (strange noises, obvious shavings in the oil last change) that things were breaking down. You know, I was told this week that lots of lower-rev driving around town may actually contribute to an IMS failure due to the added load that it puts on the engine. So, don't think that you aren't likely to see this failure because you have a low mileage car, or you don't beat on the car. In any case, I just wanted to add myself to the list of IMS failure 'victims'. Those of you out there with a '996 like mine should these warnings very seriously.

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Sorry to hear of your situation.. Always keep in mind that a ton of other failure modes have the same symptoms as an IMSB failure, so ensure that you explore the other possibilities before making any decisions or carrying out corrective action. We have sen a rash of broken IMS tensioner paddles over the last 2 months and that failure mode can often give the exact symptoms as the IMSB failure. Were you only changing the oil every year? if so this could have greatly contributed to an IMSB failure. No matter the mileage I require our engines to see an oil service every 6 months or 5K miles as experience has taught us a lot. Basically everything.

I change the oil every year, and drive the car from April to November, so it does equate to about the 6 months/5000 miles guideline. I hear you about the other symptoms, and until the shop hasn't yet done anything more than a quick diagnosis. They're going to pull the engine some time over the next few days and see what we're up against. They did drain the oil and found metal in there. And, the noise it made was very ominous. My fingers are crossed that the damage caused is not too extensive. We'll see.

Yep. You needed the IMS Guardian.

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Wait a second, you are not an enthusiast and you were unaware of the supposed M96/97 failures yet you regularly cut open your oil filter to check for metal shavings...Very interesting. These stories(from Newbies) just keep getting better and better. You just can't make this stuff up...on the other hand maybe you can. HMMM

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Wow, is this guy always this rude to other posters? I came looking to the forum for some added insight into this problem and thought I'd share my story in the hope that someone else like me would realize that this problem could easily happen to them. For the record, when I change the oil in my car, I have always looked over the cartridge filter when removing it from the container. I always also wipe out the container before putting in the new filter. The presence of shavings there would have been an obvious warning that something was amiss. And, this week when investigating IMS failures, I saw pictures of filter cartridges covered with metal shavings. I wouldn't need to be fully aware of the IMS issues to realize something was wrong.

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ALWAYS!!! In my five or six years here I have never said one nice thing to anyone.

"before I put it away for the winter" Isn't that one of the key phrases here ? If I don't drive my car once a week at least i'm paranoid that my seals will dry out and this will start the IMS bearing problem process ! Well, who knows. Also, Jake - is there data from oil analysis that says 6 months max on mobile 1 no matter the mileage ? I'm on schedule to do about 5K miles per year - drive every week at least (and not short trips at low RPM !) - and will probably add at least 2 new quarts over that period ... oil does not look too black yet - I'm hoping to go one year between changes - esp since Porsche recommends 15K interval and I will be at 1/3 of that in mostly ideal driving conditions (no extreme temps, stop/go, humidity etc.). I plan to do oil analysis at first change and see what they say .......

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I have all the data that I need to do the following with the engines that have my name on them: 1- Not to use any Mobil Oil product 2- Change the oil every 6 months or 5,000 miles Those are the rules I have created. I could care less what the factory states; we don't read the books and comply to them... We write our own book. But thats just what we do.

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"byprodriver" has a 3.6 rebuilt upgrade from a 3.4L for sale that would be perfect for you. perhaps you can get a core exchange if your core is reusable.

"Wait a second, you are not an enthusiast and you were unaware of the supposed M96/97 failures yet you regularly cut open your oil filter to check for metal shavings...Very interesting. These stories(from Newbies) just keep getting better and better. You just can't make this stuff up...on the other hand maybe you can. HMMM" It only takes about 5 minutes of research on a 996 before buying one to find all the horror stories about IMS failure. Im still looking because of this info and passed over on what I thought to be some fine 996 cars. I will probably just move to a 997 because of the info just from this ONE forum. I mean seriously, I need to buy a warning system to let me know my engine is about to blow up?

[QUOTE=KrazyK;9018728 It only takes about 5 minutes of research on a 996 before buying one to find all the horror stories about IMS failure. Im still looking because of this info and passed over on what I thought to be some fine 996 cars. I will probably just move to a 997 because of the info just from this ONE forum. I mean seriously, I need to buy a warning system to let me know my engine is about to blow up?[/QUOTE] I hope you reconsider, it's hard to beat a 996 for fun vs $, although I have to admit to peaking at '09 997 prices lately.

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FYI: IMS issues have been reported in some 997s as well.

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Dude, what's your problem? This is about the 5th or 6th time you have felt the need, for whatever reason, to step in and insult me personally even though this has nothing to do with you. Name the time and place when you want to meet to show me your old IMS bearing. If I recall correctly you had a serious desire to show it to me. Allentown area? I remember you mentioning that you go there occasionally. Seriously, name the time and place and I will be there. Also, bring the insults I want to hear them face to face.

"dreamcarrera" if you can dish it out you have to be man enough to take it "or" create a stronger defense. making threats is childish. after all your the one who slammed the newbie who had a legitimate question and concern.

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Threats? Also, you are way off on your analysis here and you do not know the story(s) behind my post. BTW, I guess being a keyboard warrior and continuously posting insults(etc.) behind the safety of a keyboard is how real men act.

A fascinating thread. My dilemma is whether I send my car to Jake for a 425 HP 3.8, or take the absurd depreciation on this one (which runs fine at 100k miles) and get a 997. Or maybe a GT3, sometime in the next few years.

[QUOTE Name the time and place when you want to meet to show me your old IMS bearing. If I recall correctly you had a serious desire to show it to me. Allentown area? I remember you mentioning that you go there occasionally. Seriously, name the time and place and I will be there. Also, bring the insults I want to hear them face to face.[/QUOTE] Months ago I pm'd you my name, address,and phone numbers,at which point you said you didn't care and had no interest in seeing it. The point I'm making is this is a tech forum. What have you added in terms of technical expertise,or help in any way. Don't let your keyboard write checks you can't cash. You wanna make it personal? I would advise against it.

Boys, HAVE AT IT!

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Months ago I pm'd you my name, address,and phone numbers,at which point you said you didn't care and had no interest in seeing it. The point I'm making is this is a tech forum. What have you added in terms of technical expertise,or help in any way. Don't let your keyboard write checks you can't cash. You wanna make it personal? I would advise against it.[/QUOTE] =========================== You are the one who has made this personal. I REALLY want to see that IMS bearing of yours. Name the time and place and I'll be sure to be there.

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+1 I am not the one throwing the personal insults around but I'd sure love to hear them in person.

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Months ago I pm'd you my name, address,and phone numbers,at which point you said you didn't care and had no interest in seeing it. The point I'm making is this is a tech forum. What have you added in terms of technical expertise,or help in any way. Don't let your keyboard write checks you can't cash. You wanna make it personal? I would advise against it.[/QUOTE] ================== I'm waiting... I'll be sure to bring my checkbook. Either give me a time/place or quit with the personal attacks, it's your choice.

"dreamcarrera" i do know the story because i've read the posts. seems you have some sort of axe to grind. not sure what you mean by hiding behind my keyboard (if that was directed at me) but i've been on other porsche forums much longer than you will know and i'm familair with people like yourself who seem unstable and who's comments are degrading. i have much more expertise in the 356 world however i'm here because i've owned lots of 911's and enjoy learning and understanding the different aspects of each model... i'm currently searching for a 1999/2000 silver/black 996 and very interested in any questions/answers regarding the IMS or RMS issues.

[ =========================== You are the one who has made this personal. I REALLY want to see that IMS bearing of yours. Name the time and place and I'll be sure to be there.[/QUOTE] I hung onto that bearing until the end of September which was 7 months. When you said you had no interest in seeing it it went with the rest of the scap metal. When I first joined the forum you harassed me for about 3wks while I did my bearing. Once it was done you said you didn't want to see it, I then reminded you in another thread but you said you couldn't care less. Although seems you've deleted that response. Stop pm'ing also. The thing is this you have my address,so I'm not going to meet at the bike rack after 3rd period. I've already put my money where my mouth is. You want to play Internet tough guy take a ride up,it's not far from Reading.

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You've read the various posts and insults going back 8+ months or so? I am not reffering only to this thread, I'm also talking about numerous others. BTW, The keyboard comment was not directed at you and I believe I am a very stable person. I have never engaged in unprovoked personal attacks and name calling on RL and I am tired of the poster in question constantly attacking me when I simply post on this subject.

You harassed me for weeks! Your clearly delusional. If you don't want to take the ride send me your address,as I was gracious enough to do.

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I hung onto that bearing until the end of September which was 7 months. When you said you had no interest in seeing it it went with the rest of the scap metal. When I first joined the forum you harassed me for about 3wks while I did my bearing. Once it was done you said you didn't want to see it, I then reminded you in another thread but you said you couldn't care less. Although seems you've deleted that response. Stop pm'ing also. The thing is this you have my address,so I'm not going to meet at the bike rack after 3rd period. I've already put my money where my mouth is. You want to play Internet tough guy take a ride up,it's not far from Reading.[/QUOTE] I've never deleted any of your posts or my posts for that matter. I'm to show up at your doorstep? Yea that might happen. How about another spot near you. Do you still go to Allentown? I'm very flexible at this point.

i don't see anything productive going on here....probably best for you guys to cool off and move on.

I like cake.

this is really fun to watch-

That's why we have this:

We talked it out like gentlemen. Shows over folks,nothin to see here.

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+1 Here's to ya Eric.

Glad we could work it out,was nice talk in to ya

good to hear you guys worked it out, well done!

Whats a bearing?.

Wow, did this ever get off topic. I think the point was is the IMS bearing failure causing the 996 to have serious reliability problems? It has pesonally cost me 2 great deals on 2 fine 996's. I have never heard of an IMS problem on a 997. In fact some forums are ******* the 996 and saying to avoid buying one because of this. So, is a buyer better off to pass on the 996 and deal with a 997????????

Some early 997s have experienced IMS failure. I found 3 just by typing "IMS failure Porsche 997" into google. A thorough search would most likely turn up more. As I understand it, the engine wasn't redesigned until the 2009 model year.

And in the 05/06 MY they beefed up the IMSB.

So it seems the IMS fail rate drops as the year model gets newer due to design improvements? Hows the Porsche recall / class action coming along on the 996?

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Robo, how did this all turn out for you??? Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit funny that this guy, along with numerous other similar phantoms, has disapeared after their initial heated intro? Mark, are you still checking to make sure these types of posts are not infomercials? Google is a powerful tool and these posts pay large(and cheap) dividends.

DreamCarrera: Wow...good point!

I'm new -- so forgive me ;-) But this is how I think about this IMS thing: -996 it looks absolutely gorgeous -- especially the early clean lines -an early 996 is simple, light, and basic -- the way Porsche should be -996 is the most affordable modern Porsche you can get -go and install the IMS retrofit kit and enjoy the car. It is still the cheapest, best looking, and most enjoyable modern Porsche you can get, even if you need to pay for the IMS retrofit . Don't waste your time worrying. Fix the IMS and you get a perfect Porsche to enjoy. I got my IMS and a new clutch done today! Merry Christmas to you all! P.S. I'm sorry if you already broke your engine.

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PCNA will replace the engine with a remanufactured engine if and only if it is under CPO. otherwise, you are SOL. at my local dealer, I was chatting with the head service guy, and he had 2 996 and a boxster awaiting engines. i would think that is alot for a small dealer. Surfer161

Cylinders cracking? IMS bearing failing? percentages of failures not known? Don't know how it happens? I wonder could it be down to over enthusiastic driving. People sat in their drive way letting the nieghbours know how loud their engine sounds when they take the revs into the red. Maybe on a cold engine. Or maybe plain and simple bad driving techniques by the usual auto drivers found more in the USA than any other country. In Europe all drivers have to learn stick shift driving before they are allowed on the roads. I wonder what the 996 failure rates are in Europe. I was advised by a Porsche Mecahnic to use Motul oil as against Mobil 1 as Motul was used more in Europe and that they didn't have all these IMS bearing failures over there. Whether there is any truth to his words, God only knows. Does any one know if it happens more with the boxer than the carrera?

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Did you actually drive the car into the shop? I thought it was taken for granted that low revving did more damage to a porsche engine than high revving. Nothing below 2500 rpm or drop a peg. Even 3000 rpm is more acceptable than trying to get more miles to the gallon out of a racing engine. Although you don't state if the break down is in actual fact a IMS bearing failure. You state an apparent IMS failure. Let us know when they get in there what the result is .

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Well done Lex... Whats your milage? What did the clutch and bearing look like condition wise? before my extended warrenty runs out (3yr/45,000miles) I will more than likely do the retrofit. I have a 99 C2 cab, silver. 53000 miles.. Happy 2012 to all readers.

This thread is evidence you 996 guys are bigger bitches than the 944 guys Almost as bad as 928 guys! Well done

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bull****. 2500rpm? This is not a roller bearing 356 motor. Even my ancient 993 can easily cruise along at 1800rpm without an issue. I hardly ever cruise above 2500 rpm unless I'm at highway speeds, and even then its just barely. Get these old ideas of "lugging" out of your head. finally, the m96 is not a "racing engine"