47 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
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YOUR RESEARCHMy IMS Failure
Reported or suspected cause
closest thing
Reported cause
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Reported cause · Original poster
The Dora towel took the ultimate hit, it was the closest thing to the oil slick and had to be thrown down!
Leading evidence: 'closest thing' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'closest thing' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Clean engine' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Lastly, the dealer I bought it from replaced 4 coiled packs when I bought it.
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Suspected cause
They should have replaced all the coil packs, the other two are probably the culprits.
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Suggestion
If that does happen, then I would prefer to send you a nice, clean new engine to work on rather than this beat down one
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Suggestion
Yeah, If I had known they were only replacing 4, I would have paid them to through in the other two...but he told me that as he was handing over the keys and I had to drive across Canada.
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Suggestion
and yet people in "the market" for a used 996 run away from any mention of a car that was on the track or has been driven spiritedly, they want to hear that grandma moses drove it and "saved" the car for them...
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47 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
This can cause thermal spikes which can lead to issues, nothing about quick thermal changes is good, at 130F the engine is still not fully expanded and all the tolerances are tighter, inducing wear.
Thank you Porsche CPO, truly great service.
Happened last week. 2003 C4S, 28k miles. Daily driven, 100 miles per day for the past year. All service up to date. I bought it last year CPO with 16k miles.
It started to make the death rattle upon start-up, I shut it down, then it dumped all the oil onto my garage floor.
Flat bedded to dealer, they had the new engine installed in 3 business days. It is a factory new 2005 motor.
Car runs and drives like new, very happy with Porsche and their quick service. I had a great service experience overall and have no ill feelings.
Some pics for fun:
Im surprised they didnt say anything about the aftermarket exhaust.... lucky you! 2 new motors in 6 years. At this rate, they should've upgrade you to a 3.4
Any idea how long it sat at Pepe's before your purchase on 10/2010 ? With 16K on the clock when you made the purchase equates to little over 2k a year on the road, not a lot but coupled with extensive storage at a dealer may have caused that pin falling out of that grenade.
Yeah, but over all the car has low miles. I think the cycle was already in motion before he had the car.
Yes Porsche is very careful to not cause a breach of warranty. Its one of the ways to keep this as quiet as they can till the cars are all out of warranty.
tip or 6 speed?
good for you, covered yourself... we do see a few people who think getting these nice low mile cars... and we always tell them, cover yourself!
wow, that's clean!
But according to current wisdom the problem surfaces on a vehicles with varied miles on the clock. I'm thinking that the part in question being self contained and lubricated with it's own special sauce might start the contamination process after an extended amount of inactivity. Those who garage in harsh climes prob and subscribe to frequent oil changes are within that 5-6 month grace period of storage. For all we know, the op's vehicle could have sat on various lots for up to a year or more causing the IMS lubricating sauce to go rancid.
without seeing the ***** you would not be able to tell if the special sauce etched them causing the failure or it was something to do with a weak cage, a pressure problem in the IMS shaft or something else - I imagine some might even dry up, overheat and go bad...
the way to get oil into the sealed bearing is a bit of an unknown...maybe harder driving, maybe longer driving, maybe shutting it off hot, or cooling it down first, I really dont know. I do know NONE of the bearings I have seen have ever had grease in them....only oil
One of the places doing studies on this discovered 986/996s that were driven lightly and rarely pushed suffer the highest rates of IMS failures. Seems that frequent periods of high revs are required to keep the IMS properly lubricated. Explains why track cars and "drive it like you stole it" drivers rarely suffer problems, while low-mileage garage queens fail in much greater numbers. There was a thread about it in the 987 forum a few months ago.
These cars are made to be driven hard, and punish those who force upon their cars the ultimate abuse: underdriving them!
and yet people in "the market" for a used 996 run away from any mention of a car that was on the track or has been driven spiritedly, they want to hear that grandma moses drove it and "saved" the car for them...
where's that soap box
Wonderful you got taken care of.
Curious as to exactly where the oil was running out of? Almost looks like you are doing an oil change. Did the intermediate shaft break, did the bearing go south, or???
Any details on exactly what actually happened and resulting component damage?
That's some scarey stuff. Hope that doesn't happen to mine when I get it. 01 with 40k miles. I plan on driving it hard every time I go out, after a proper warm up. Does changing the oil more frequently than the prescribed distance seem to have any effect?
no one has enough data to respond to this... however Jake R is about to launch a new "device" for the early detection of the IMS...it is set to debut in about 2 months........
when the ims shaft gets to swinging around, the gear is flopping erraticly and the chains get to slapping about, the externals of the case can be shattered in an instant, its not all of them that do this, but some do, also depending on piston/valve interferances caused by being horribly out of timing can casue damage to the cylinder walls, heads, craddle and other things... - read "its a hell of a mess"
That one sounds like it may have possibly been able to be saved by an IMSR procedure.. When they happen at idle with no load we have great success saving the engines.
03, 28K miles.. Sounds exactly like TWO cars we have at the Flat 6 Compound now.
can one that pukes all the oil out be saved? I would assime it depends where the oil comes from, if from the broken stud that holds the bearing in place or other right?
It always depends, but you HAVE to try. These engines hold a lot of oil, they can lose 80% of it and never seize or have issues if it occurs at low speeds.
Oil loss isn't the issue that kills the engine, its collateral damage from valve timing events that are compromised in most cases.
I've saved many that were condemned by the Dealer or other Indies. You HAVE to try.
And both of you better hope that whatever warranty you'll be relying on is better than the paper it is written on..
Otherwise Attorney Isiah Loophole will arrive and ruin your day.
Just let it sit for a week, start it up and start revving the **** out of it. Then speed off hitting the limiter every shift till it warms up. Do this a few times for a fast and effective failure
Doesn't work.. I did it in my car (Boxster) for over two solid years most every time I started it.. That includes starting the engine up in eleven degree temperatures and holding it WFO until the coolant boiled.
That was done during testing of the IMSR, on the car that saw the first bearing retrofit including 4 solid hours at redline on my chassis dyno, I had to stop to keep the dyno from overheating, but I didn't care about the engine.
That engine still runs fine, it has never given one problem. I have driven it 5 solid miles in second gear against the revlimiter. The ECU has over 90,000 range one over rev counts, 40,000 range 2 and 10,000 range 3.
The IMS bearing LOVES RPM, it hates load and lugging with low speed.
Interesting, the M96 engine is like middleweight boxing champ, moves quick, plenty of power and durability, but kick him in the ***** (IMS) or poke him in the eye (chain tensioners) and nothing else matters.....
So you redline a just started cold motor repetedly with no ill effects?
I had a friend in the late 70s early 80s that bought several new 911s and a 930. He used to run them at redline in first gear around town because he liked the gear and fan whine noise they made. They were all under warranty and no damage was ever done that was discovered. I was amazed then, and more so now thinking about it.
Personally, I rev the snot out of my car and try to avoid low end loads but I have been known to leave a stop sign in second once or twice
Hey Jake, my C4S is a freakn rocket when cold and loses power when warm. Normal?
For example, starting the car, drive off after about 5 or 6 seconds...Don't really push it beyond 4K for the first couple minutes, but as soon as the needle starts to move (even .5mm), if I pound the throttle, it's like stepping on a bomb!! It's an awesome feeling. The car will pull like that right up to the point where it reaches normal op temp....then it's noticeably subdued. It still pulls, but nothing like when cold. It feels like it's got an extra 30 or 40 Tq when cold.
It also stutters like a frightened Jerry Lewis when it's cold but warm out. When it's really cold, the rpm instantly shoots to 1100 or so and I can drive away immediately, no issues...but when the outside temp is above say 15 degree C....start the car and the idle tries to set at 700, and it stumbles...goes to 1000...stumbles...shoots to 1400 and it's ok. As long as I don't try to drive...until the secondary air inductor shuts off...if I try to drive off before that, it stumbles. (unless I rev the **** out of it and run the clutch)
weird, but otherwise the engine purrs like a kitten
Good. Drive it, they like to be hammered on as long as they are PROPERLY maintained, whiich goes a little further than Porsche recommends
Not normal.. I'd carry out hot and cold compression tests, we find the most power on the dyno around 185F colant temp, but no engine loses more than 3-4HP past that until it hits 220F, generally.
Not totally normal.. But do not beat on the engine until the coolant temp is at minimum 160F, I'd rather see it at 180+ before hammering on it.
Sounds like a dirty fuel system and some injectors that need blueprinting to me, or maybe the spark plugs and coil packs are getting tired.
Good, keep it that way. carry out things that you do not need right now, before you do need them.
Like I said, I didn't intend to ask for a free diagnosis online, so thank you for taking the time to answer my questions Jake! It's greatly appreciated.
2 things...1, it's funny because I've never seen my car hit 220...like ever. Normal temp on my car, fully warmed up is 85 C...which is around 185F. Even in rush hour traffic, bumper to bumper...with the fans going on high, the highest I've seen is 96C...which is 204F. (that's running DashCommand plugged into the ODBII.)
Normally, I don't do hard runs until the needle has hit the first marker up from the bottom. There is no temp indicated on the gauge there, but Dash Command says it's 56C..or 130F. Even then, it is much stronger than when the engine is fully warmed. It's really obvious. Hmmm, guess I'm going to need to have some compression tests done. :|
2. How would you recommend cleaning the fuel system? I avoid add in products like the plague. I also have only ever put Shell 91 in this car since I purchase it last July. Lastly, the dealer I bought it from replaced 4 coiled packs when I bought it. Maybe I need to have the plugs done too?
Thanks again for your feedback. You provide excellent service and products to the Porsche community. If my car wasn't under CPO for another 14 months, I would be sending it to you...as it is, I'm going to hold off on the engine works until CPO runs out. Plus, I'm still trying to comp up with a financial plan to upgrade to you X51 4.0 package...Cause that's what I really want anyway! xD
sean
No problem.. I am in the Office today working on my new development paperwork so I have some time..
BUT what you don't realize is the position of the coolant temp sensor is horrible. Measure the temp of the coolant in the 4-6 head and you'll see a dramatic difference than that of what the coolant temp sensor says.
Thats too cold to be beating on the engine. This can cause thermal spikes which can lead to issues, nothing about quick thermal changes is good, at 130F the engine is still not fully expanded and all the tolerances are tighter, inducing wear.
They should have replaced all the coil packs, the other two are probably the culprits. Change the plugs too.
No problem.
Too many people say that... I guess people put more stock in whats written on paper than I do. I'd rather avoid problems than to deal with the BS that happens in the chain of responsibility when they do.. Thats just me.
BTW- the new technology should not intrude on any warranty thats in place. I would have to read the fine print to see, but I doubt seriously that it would.
"at 130F the engine is still not fully expanded and all the tolerances are tighter, inducing wear"
If the tolerances are tighter, than that would explain the power increase would it not? The only other thing I thought was maybe the SAI wasn't pumping enough air in when the ambient temp is up? Causing a rich condition? I do smell something when these specific conditions are met. Not gas exactly, but chemical in odour. Is the SAI controlled by temp at all?
hm, I don't want to do any damage, I just found it odd that the performance difference was so noticeable. Do you recommend changing to a 160 thermostat?
Yeah, If I had known they were only replacing 4, I would have paid them to through in the other two...but he told me that as he was handing over the keys and I had to drive across Canada.
Really, in the end, if the engine explodes under warranty, it's going to cost Porsche...which it should. If that does happen, then I would prefer to send you a nice, clean new engine to work on rather than this beat down one
I know you don't care either way, maybe I'm just weird. However, I would be nervous about bringing the car to Porsche for some other breakdown/service and them refusing because it's got the LN kit installed or otherwise.
BTW...sending my car to you would be pretty freakn costly. I don't think I could send it to anyone farther than you in North America!
Really, I'd like to send you my car and get the 3.8XR51...and have you balance it with my transmission (with LWFW
) but I have some planning to do to make that happen. That is on a 2 year plan....
I've wanted a 911 since I was 12. I will be keeping this car until I'm dead and will, quite possibly, be buried in it. So while I'd love to get a GT3 or Turbo S....I'm quite content to continuously invest in my Veronica. Poor ROI or not.
It should NEVER be a notable difference in power from cold to hot. If it loses that much power hot I'd say your thought process is backward and the engine is too loose when its hot and loses power. If its a 3.6 I'd be especially concerned with cylinder degradation with these symptoms.
Lets see how that comes out for ya..
Miles don't separate us.. EVERY CAR thats at this facility now has travelled at least 1,000 miles to get here. We have one being delivered to Oregon today as a 3.8 Stage II build. We have built engines for vehicles from Russia! I have cars on the truck heading this way just for the IMSR procedure all the way from Northern Canada. Seriously, it blows us away but it happens time and time again. We ship so many cars that I am going to start a transportation division and move the cars ourselves.
:-)
I got one when I was 12 :-)
Anyone that buys a reconstructed engine from us can't be concerned with ROI, I have NEVER seen a car with one of my engines in it be advertised on the market for sale. The only people that benefit from what we create at that level are those who will NEVER sell the car. I tell my potential purchasers this all the time. We build the engine to order for you so selling it shouldn't be a consideration.
I got one when I was 12 :-)
K, now you're just showing off!!
Who is the shipping company? Like the one from Canada, do you know who they sent it with? I'd lke to get some more info cause the random calls I've made...it would cost 1/4 of what I paid for the car :|
Contact us for contacting our shippers, we have two that we use exclusively.
I don't want to hijack this thread, I'll get my wrist slapped.
The car I got when I was 12 had to be reconstucted, all this madness started even before then :-)
Well, that could be one reason when I did the IMS bearing change, the OEM one at 93k miles came out brand new. I've never babied the car, but having a hard life resulted in the valve seat material cracking due to stress over the years. Had to tear apart the engine. Damn if you do, damn if you don't.
