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YOUR RESEARCHX74 suspension information request
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Install with gt3 control arms
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I hear that GT3 sway bars are best installed with GT3 control arms because they are designed to work together....
Leading evidence: 'Install with gt3 control arms' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'hip and new teeth...since it'll take me' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust complete hard' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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WGI is one of my favorite tracks, and have the expereince of driving the car before and after i installed the X-74..
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I know a friend of mine has a 2002 C4S which comes with 030 suspension stock and he changed his springs to either H&R or Eibach..
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- I am using the Porsche recommended X74 alignment settings but camber is changed to front -1 deg, rear -2 deg.
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One of the most respected alignment shops in town did my alignment and used the spec's provided previously.
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hip and new teeth...since it'll take me
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If I ever get into tracking the car extensively, by the time I learn enough to need adjustable, I'll be needing new shocks and springs (and probably a hip and new teeth...since it'll take me that long).
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Is there a good write up somewhere for the X74 suspension? Just pondering what to do next and was looking at this set up since its supposedly stiffer than the PSS9/10. Thanks in advance.
Unless you are knowledgeable in suspension tuning, you can just as easily screw things up than make them better. This is exactly why I got the x73. It's still on order though, so I can't post impressions yet.
The X74 really transformed my car. It is a fixed suspension just bolt on, get an alignment and go drive. It really is not that stiff....maybe because I have had it for a year now I don't realize the stiffness anymore..plus I'm driving local speed limits on the street. I can say that at speed on the track is when you really notice the capability of the X74. This is the BEST mod I have done so far. Well worth it!
The things I have read worth reading about the X74 are here on RL. There are several threads devoted to it. I think the PSS9/10 could possibly be stiffer because you could adjust complete hard.
+1
Unless you really love to test-n-tune your suspension, you're unlikely to ever get an adjustable kit's settings dialed in optimally for your car. The X73 & X74 kits come preassembled with Bilstein shocks and springs that were factory-tuned by Porsche for your vehicle. No other kit offers that. They don't squeak, rattle, bind, leak or need adjusting... they just work beautifully right out of the box. It's a great setup for street through advanced DE usage including r-compound tires. I speak from experience on this. The only downside is that you can't really corner-balance the car since they are not threaded. For most people, that shouldn't be a deal-killer.
Good luck.
Ordered from Suncoast almost a month ago. It's supposed to take 4 weeks to come so hopefully they'll be here soon. I figure another 1k for install. Not cheap, but from the other threads on here, everyone who has the x73/74 loves it.
I used to drive a cab with stock US suspension, now I drive a coupe with X74. X74 pros and cons from my point of view:
- US stock suspension is crap, even for the street. It's too tall and soft. At around 80+ mph the front end gets kind of floaty. On the track and autocross, it's really soft and there is a lot of body roll. But it is comfy when hitting potholes. The ROW M030 should have been the stock suspension in the US. The X74 should have been the sport suspension.
- X74 is a lot lower and stiffer than stock, but not too low and stiff for the street. I have the Euro GT3 seats and it's fine. It's not as low and stiff as the GT3 suspension, but on the suspension spectrum it feels closer to GT3 than to stock. I scrape some driveways and speed bumps. The high speed floaty front end is gone and so is the annoying body roll. I can feel the car take a set in the corners without the sensation I am on a boat. The handling of the car in turns feels much more quick and snappy for both track and autocross. Slaloms are a joy.
- As a compromise suspension for the street/track it's great. If the car never sees track/autocross then I don't know if the pros outweigh the cons.
- X74 is genuine Porsche part so it's designed and optimized for just our cars out of the box. Don't know if that helps for warranty claims, but it can't hurt.
- Ready to go out of the box, no adjustments. This is a double edged sword. Don't have to find a knowledgeable shop to set up the suspension or worry that it's not right, but can't change anything you don't like e.g. ride height, corner balance. I'll be the first to admit that on the track I am a crap drover, so it will be a while before suspension tuning becomes a factor for me.
- I am using the Porsche recommended X74 alignment settings but camber is changed to front -1 deg, rear -2 deg. I like this setting so far. For me it doesn't feel twitchy but doesn't plow either.
Hope this helps.
Agree with Smackboy stock suspension is JUNK in comparison (actually no comparison). The x74 totally transformed my car. After you got it and tried it, you'll ask what the f*** I was driving before. I did. I just wish I had done it sooner.
One very noticeable improvement is when you give gas, you feel the rear wheels hook up instantaneously and you could feel the torque a lot better. With the stock suspension, the torque is lost when compressing the stock springs. You feel major improvements on braking, accelearting, cornering, basically all aspects.
I lost 5yrs of pure enjoyment. You won't go wrong with x74. I have no experience with PSS9/10 but I like the fact that x74 is what Porsche intends the car to drive.
I appreciate all the responses. So the one perk with the PSS# setups are adjustability but I"ve heard they are softer. Is this a true statement? I thought of X74 and a set of GMG sways. Sways are probably going to come first so I still have time to chose X74 and PSS#. Now there's also KW's and H & R coils any comparisons/opinions on those?
And I only drive this car on the weekends through the back roads. When I go with other groups I always have no confidence in the corners since I feel the float and lack of stability. (Not saying we area being deviants on the roads but in certain areas you do know that the car is too floaty.
I think the RS motormounts will help in this aspect also. When I rev the engine by twisting the cable from the throttle body you can see how the motor twists from the torque...
+1 on the X74.
Was thinking of going with the ROW 030 kit but after hearing that it doesn't lower the car much I decided on the X74. Very nice drop. To me, it transforms the car not only from a handling perspective but also cosmetically. Car just looks so much better lowered.
The roads here in Honolulu absolutely SUCK. We pay some of the highest taxes for both City and State roads and they're still terrible. So the stiffness of the X74 does bother me at times but once I hit smoother roads I forget about it and just enjoy the ride.
One other thing, i found that the factory settings for the X74 cause the car's rear end to be VERY twitchy. I think as some noted previously, you have to dial in a bit more negative camber to compensate. Not sure why it's so twitchy but it was scary to me.
By the way, you might also want to consider the X74 sway bars rather than aftermarket.
The X74/X73 kit will only make your car "Twitchy" if the alignment is off especially... TOE in the rear.
For street use you can go with factory settings and get a nice balance.
Here are the spec for the different set ups.
I suspect the twitchiness in the rear was caused by a problem somewhere. I didn't have any issues with the factory X74 settings. Pretty stable and biased towards understeer at the limit. Even with my new settings at front -1 rear -2, the car feels pretty stable; tends towards understeer at the limit most of the time.
The only way to dial the understeer out is: GT3 lower control arms & more camber... Currently, I am at -2.7 front (GT3 arms front) / -2.3 rear ~ max w/o GT3 arms rear)
I've had the X74 on my C2 for 2 years and I have driven several 996's and 986's with PSS9's and two 996 GT3's with stock suspensions.
Here's my thoughts.
- The x74 is stiff. Far stiffer than stock US settings and much stiffer than the PSS9 (even with the dampening cranked up). My sense is that it is every bit as stiff as the Mk II 996 GT3. I'm not saying it will outhandle the GT3 as spring stiffness is only one factor (out of many) that must act in harmony with the other suspension components. I'm only trying to say that this system is not for the faint of heart. If you want a system that will transform the handling sharpness and precision of you car this is for you. However, the tradeoff is a big increase ride harshness. You will feel everything, period. Every bump, ripple, and highway expansion joint will be felt. If you are looking for "the look" of a reduced ride height and want some improved handling without that degree of harshness, the PSS9 will probably suit your needs better, however in my opinion I think the x74 is somewhat better than the PSS9 in outright handling and sharpness.
- The big disadvantage of the x74 is lack of adjustability (this could be an advantage depending on how you look at it). The x74 offers no adjustability of the, ride height, dampener settings or the bars. This is bad if you really want to play around with the settings. It's good from the standpoint that Porsche already did that for you so you can't screw it up.
One thing Ed (Ivangene) told me (when he was active on RL...where the %#!@*$%&!!! is he?) was go for the best. I wanted more cowbell and I realized I would not be happy with ROW M030 or the PSS9/10 route. I would love it for a little bit but would start to think I want more. So I cut out the 2nd step and got the X74.
Hmmm...not to hijack this thread by any idea what may have caused the excessive twitchiness?
One of the most respected alignment shops in town did my alignment and used the spec's provided previously. After that my rear end would move left to right or right to left at the slightest bump or imperfection in the road.
anybody tried mixing the X74 springs with ROW 030 shocks.... I have ROW 030 and I really like the compromise between track and street... handles really well and car is still usable on a daily basis with no scraping....
I'm curious if the x74 springs would be a good option for ROW 030 shocks in that it would lower the car for the "look" and a bit more handling performance without the extreme harshness of the x74 shocks?
Like Ray said above.... if X74 is like MKII GT3... that is a HARD ride for sure... I would tend to agree...
I don't mind the hard ride. I want something better than what I have. It sounds like X74 is the way to go. If I ever get into tracking the car extensively, by the time I learn enough to need adjustable, I'll be needing new shocks and springs (and probably a hip and new teeth...since it'll take me that long).
Not sure why someone would want to fiddle with an engineered system like this. That is why Porsche made the X74 and ROW M030 as separate systems. I think mixing parts would be a mistake IMHO.
This is what I was driving around on before I turned the car into a track rat!
You probably would want to be between -1.5 deg & -2.0 Deg rear camber. The car was stable and fun to drive on the street and turned some good lap times at WGI on street tires. Do turn in with predictable understeer.
Cheers,
Chris
I don't think it would... that's why I'm asking the question here... I know Gert over at Carnewal said it would work but I'm looking for somebody who has actually done it...
oh okay... primarily for the cosmetic effect of a lowered vehicle with the slight extra performance advantage without the harsh ride... I know a friend of mine has a 2002 C4S which comes with 030 suspension stock and he changed his springs to either H&R or Eibach.. I'll have to ask him... and his car does well.... the only reason I was considering x74 springs is because they are a porsche factory part and probably work within the tolerance of the ROW 030 shocks...
If you want to track, X74 will give you more car than you know what to do with for a long time. It's streetable enough, but if it's primarily for street and you just want the slammed look, I'd do something less harsh. If you want track, GT3 sways in addition are the way to go. Still too much roll w/ M030's IMHO.
One other complication, you really need to use GT3 control arms for camber up front. Using the aftermarket camber plates didn't give me the results I was looking for.
You can eventually kiss your front bumper cover goodbye too :-).
okay... I hear that GT3 sway bars are best installed with GT3 control arms because they are designed to work together....
I agree with you on the track the ROW 030 has its own sways and they aren't bad but they could be a little stiffer for sure...
x74 - Dive and Squat
I am looking to stiffen the springs up on my car, primarily to eliminate the dive and squat in the hard (sometimes downhill) braking zones on the track. WGI front straight going into #2 comes to mind. The dive and squat with the M030 is BAD. lateral roll I can deal with, but the dive under heavy braking is rough. the rear gets light and the car wants to point in the wrong direction, if you know what I mean.
Porsche will not publish the spring rates for this setup.
x73/x74 owners - Did this setup eliminate the dive under heavy braking at the track????
that's interesting... I have "R"OW 030 and my dive and squat isn't that bad at all... I would imagine that the much stiffer springs and shocks on x73/4 would solve this for sure... anybody?
I track the X74 and find it stable and fast....especially at WGI. The 030 was nice... the X74 took 5.5 seconds off my lap time. I can run t2, 4th gear foot to the floor!
The X74 spring rates are also not published... BUT, they are stiffer the the PSS10's. I am thinking that the X74 is around 600 to 650 front & 550 to 600lbs rear. If someone has the actual numbers that would be great to see...
WGI is one of my favorite tracks, and have the expereince of driving the car before and after i installed the X-74.. WOW what a huge difference in all the corners as the car is much more stable and body lean is greatly reduced. Of course the car brakes better with less dive and lean especially trailbraking.
You will really notice how nicely the car rotates being stiffer makes a big difference.
Its the best mod i've done so far, and would absolutely recommend this setup. I also ordered the suspension from Gert.
Hope this helps
+1 Dive and Squat vastly reduced after switching to X74 from USA M030. Transition time reduced and stability improved.
FWIW: changing the engine mounts to a semi-solid design (WEVO) also helped clean up the transitions and reduce the "wobble" under braking.
