Battery replaced with Lithium-Ion - Dropped 37.6 lbs too

Replaced my battery today with an Antigravity Lithium-Ion. I use one on my track car and really like it. It has a built-in Battery Management System and will shut itself down before it's dead should it sense the battery discharging. It also has built-in "jump starting". Should it drain, I press a button on a fob and the battery turns itself on with enough reserve to start the car. I never again have to worry about getting into the frunk with a dead battery. I also dropped 37.6 pounds up front.

Wow. Gonna take a look. 37.6 lbs is huge.thanks for the heads up. can't tell from the picture which one you got. They are definitely pricey.

It's tempting, but lithium-ion batteries have been known to burst into flames you can't put out and Chinese made doesn't make me feel any better. Unless that case can prevent thermal runaway, it's not under consideration.

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Antigravity H6/Group-48, AG-H6-40-RS. I got mine for $746, just look around. With Thanksgiving coming up, you might be able to find a deal.

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Yep, they aren't for everyone. I've used one in my track car for years, under very strenuous conditions including at 105�F, and never had an issue. Yes it can happen but the chances are pretty slim. I don't worry about it. Heck, the chances are greater that someone on their phone will hit my car.

An alternative would be LiFePO4 battery. Slightly less energy dense than the above LiCoO2 but still a massive weight saving compared to lead-acid batteries. Thermal runaway won't happen due to cell internal short circuit with LiFePO4 whereas with LiCoO2 it suffices.

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Antigravity are LiFePo4. Thermal runaway (TR) for LiFePo4 battery is virtually nil if charged/monitored with a proper Li battery charger and maintained correctly. My concern with any Li battery is when the case is compromised and a high heat source is present. That’s when the devil gets to play. I wonder if race teams have safety protocols for recovering a car that caught fire or crashed and may have a compromised LiFePo4 race battery case. It’d really suck if the battery reignited when it was on the hauler a few hours later. And for my peace of mind, the 996 battery location is fantastic. From a safety perspective, I do not have any issue putting a LiFePo4 battery in my Pcar. If I’m in a crash where a battery would be cracked open where our batteries are located, I’m already dead.

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Sucks that China controls 2/3 of Lithium production. So you�re not gonna be putting a Tesla in your garage any time soon??? Google the silly statements Tesla puts out after one brews up because of a battery pack fire.

Interesting info on batteries. I haven't studied them but plan on it after this thread. Always looking to save weight. Certainly don't want a freak battery fire either. Have used Interstate H7 batteries forever. But there is always something new that's better, stronger and lighter. Good conversation.

I installed one too about a year ago. I think I posted similar pics, but also dropped almost 40lbs in battery. It's been flawless and just like a normal battery. Regarding capacity, I have tested and with the car unlocked, it went over a month (winter), before it dropped enough to disable itself. I just hit the "self jump start" and the car started right up. I also have the recommended charger from Antigravity. If you have questions Antigravity is sometimes active on here and has a couple of long very technical threads about batteries. ​​​​​​Waiting for a Christmas season sale is definitely the way to go! Edit: car was unlocked in my test

It is true that fires with Lithium-Ion batteries are very rare events, but the risk is not zero. It's why airlines require removal from your luggage before checking bags. https://www.consumerreports.org/faa/...ta-cargo-hold/ Our condo association considered installing several electric car chargers in the garage, but after consulting with the local fire department it was decided to put them outside because of the fire risk. These battery fires can't be extinguished so the protocol is to let the cars burn outside if they caught fire. /X3

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Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is not the same as Lithium Ion, which is what has been used in cars and laptops for a while now. LiFePO4 is a bit newer on the market. "LiFePO4 batteries are much safer than Lithium ion cells because they contain no flammable liquid electrolyte so there is less risk of fire or explosion if the battery malfunctions or comes into contact with water or another substance that conducts electricity like metal shavings" https://nextgenlithium.com/blogs/new...the-difference /The More You Know Most car Li-Ion fires are after an accident that has punctured the battery and created a conductive path where there shouldn't be one. Very few fires are spontaneous due to a mistreated battery, and most modern BMS (battery management systems) should be good at preventing those conditions from happening. And LiFePO are much, much less likely than that. This is also why the Antigravity batteries have the auto-shutoff when the voltage gets low, with a self-jump-start. It prevents over-discharge, which is one of those dangerous conditions. My take is that I have a much much greater chance of being in a car accident, or of having my house burning down onto the car, than of anything to do with a battery fire.

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Maybe people have noticed, but gasoline pumps are also outside, and flammable chemicals (gasoline, butane, etc.) are also not allowed on airplanes; because of a very real (but also unlikely) fire/explosion risk. Do you park your gasoline car in your garage? That sounds too dangerous to me!! (I park my gasoline car in my garage.) The issue is one of energy storage. ALL energy-dense materials have failure modes which include a rapid release of stored energy. (Fire, explosion, etc.). Batteries are no different than gasoline in that regard. But just like gasoline tanks have pressure releases and fume venting, electronics to minimize sparking, batteries have BMS with shutoffs, etc. All of these things usually work.

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Any Li-po, Lithium battery pak, doesn't matter on its exact chemical Lithium composition, is a risk, small but there. Especially for LiFePO4. If the thin wound up membrane sandwich separating the electrolytes is punctured and the chemicals mix, you get thermal runaway. If the battery is punctured and exposed to any moisture, thermal runaway... combustion can occur. And these fire can't be put out by smothering them and shutting out the oxygen since the nature of these chemicals supplies its own oxygen to let them burn for many hours . Then there is the toxic fumes... The Antigravity batteries are great, if I was a track guy competing and needed an edge or they weren't so expensive, I'd have a few, in all my cars. Make no mistake, Li-Po batteries are the best we've got, but they do ALL pose a risk, a small one I'm willing to take. But to say risk is not there doesn't jive, as fires happens regularly...

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HI all just wanted to address a few things... Firstly, thanks to those who posted about Lifepo4 and the realities of fire. We are happy to see that people are doing the research and gettting informed because much of the time there is a mis-understanding about the term Lithium-Ion in general, and the products associated with it. I will try to give some details to educate for those interested and you can verify by just doing google searches. - For those who don't know, Lithium-Ion is an umbrella term generally meaning any "rechargeable Lithium Battery" some Lithium Batteries are NOT rechargeable like those in watches and the button batteries. LITHIUM-ION is often used as a term for the batteries used in Electric Cars, Phones/Tablets, Power Tools, Jump Starters and many other products, but the thing to know is that these applications will use DIFFERENT type of lithium battery chemistries. For example, lets just stick with two of the chemical make-ups of the several available.... Lithium Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4), and Lithium Cobalt (LICO). Antigravity Batteries, as well as Porsche, Mercedes, McLaren, BMW offer thier "Lithium Starter Batteries" in the Lifepo4 Chemistry because it is known as the safest Lithium chemistry. Lifpo4 offers the higher level of stability when abused, and it operates in the same general voltage range as Lead/Acid Batteries. So it is very safe and stable, it can be swapped out directly with a Lead/Acid Car Battery, and offers better performace in most all regards (I'll go into that more below). On the other hand a Lithium Colbalt (LICO) battery actually has more energy density, more power and can have a greatter capacity in a smaller format than Lifpo4, so it is much better for powering smaller devices like Hoover boards, Mini Jump Starters,. I was used in some phones/electronics as well as in the Radio Controlled Cars/Planes because it has such a high energy density and power. The problem it is very unstable when overworked, over-discharged, or over-charged, and it does not work in the voltage range of Automobiles. So the LICO Chemistry is often the one that has been shown going into Thermal Runaway and combusting into fire that you often see. - There is no dismissing that any battery, be it Lithium and even Lead/Acid Batteries (rare) can go into Thermal runaway which is basically the battery melting down because of being over-heated, but there is an abuse, or event, that causes the battery to over-heat such as being put in extreme high heat areas beyond it operation specifications, or having low qualtiy Lithium cells, or even human errors on the BMS side of things, the point being quality lithium products are not spontaneously going into flame. It should be noted that high quality Lithium Batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) built into the battery. The BMS is a circuit-board that controls the internal Lithium Battery Cell pack and will not allow the battery to over-discharge itself, orbe over-charged. Additionally, it offers temperature protections and will shut down the battery if it gets over-heated, and will not allow charging of the battery if it is frozen. So the BMS is a critical components and has parameters in it that don't allow the internal Lithium cells to be abused or put in a position to not operate within their optimal settings. So with a good BMS in place it is incredibly difficult to harm a Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery even if you were to try to abuse it. So a properly built Lithium Battery is exceptionally safe. It also cannot spontaneously combust, it has to be abused to a point beyond what a Cars system can usually do. It should also be known that there are some Lifepo4 Automotive Starter batteries on the market that do NOT have a BMS, and yes that can be dangerous if abused and not maintained properly. Antigravity RE-START Batteries all have exceptionally advanced BMS systems, so we do not want to be lumped-in with other Lithium Starter Battery companies. - In regards to Lifespan between Lithium and Lead/Acid. Batteries lifespans are determined by a few things. First is the rated "Cycles" of a Battery Chemistry, a high quality Lead/Acid battery is rated at roughly 1000 cycles. A cycle is a full discharge and full recharge of a Battery. On the other hand a Lifepo4 Lithium Battery is rated at about 3000 cycles which is 3x that of Lead acid Batteries. So with that actual fact you would think that you will get about 3x the lifespan from a Lithium Battery, which would be accurate in a Lab. In the real world in use in a Car you have other factors that can determine the lifespan of a battery such as Heat, or how deeply the battery has been discharged. For example the #1 cause of ANY BATTERY being damaged is due to over-discharge. If you allow your battery to over-discharge below roughly 9v by accidentally leaving your lights on or storing it too long without a charger then your battery can be damaged dramatically. The longer is stays in a deeply discharged state the more the damage and you will see the result as a battery that only lasts about 2 years, it will not have as much power, it will not longer hold a charge well or will fail under loads.. A lithium battery will be damaged exactly the same way if it is over-discharged, all batteries will..... but remember the Lithium Battery has the Battery Management System, so it will actually NOT allow itself to be over-discharged! It will put itself to sleep/protection mode before over-discharge can damage it. Then if you look at over-charge, which is much more rare in modern Cars, the Lead/Acid Battery does not have protections against this either, but a Lithium Battery with a BMS will. So my point in this statement is that not only does a lithium Battery have more Cycles, it has protections so it can't get damaged by issues that may occur in the car. Therefore it can offer a much longer lifespan not only based on it higher available cycles. - Performance of Lithium vs Lead. Lithium walks away in this regard to a high degree... it about 60% to 70% lighter than Lead/Acid depending on the model of Battery you buy, but averages about a 35 lbs wieght difference if you are using the H6 size batteries that most Porsche and other brand use. So for the performance weight crowd that is massive, and very cost effective compared to Carbon Fiber, or other exotic materials. Lithium offers much more cranking power, but not all cars really need the abundance of Cranking Power our Lithium Battery has. But for the performance crowd that is a massive benefit when they build ther motors or go high compression. The lithium will rip start most motors with a much smaller battery than would be needed if using Lead/Acid. Antoher performance advantage for Lithium is that there is no liquids inside or ridgid components so the battery is not damaged by higher vibration. In regards to heat, that can damage any battery chemistries but lithium is not damaged as much by higher heat in the engine bay than Lead/Acid so it has an big advantage there. So with a Porsche with the battery being in the frunk it is not as subjected to high heat except in desert climates, but that is a lower temp than in the engine bay so that is a benefit for any battery's lifespan in a Porsche. - Other benefits. Our Antigravity Battery has WIRELESS built-in Jump Starting. That means if you did leave your lights on for a day or so and forgot and came back to a dead car with our battery..... all you would do it press the button on the Keyfob we provide you with the battery, which wakes the battery up, then you would start the Car and drive away. You would not have to open the frunk to get to the battery you would not have to see the battery or touch it, and if you had your wife driving the car they would not have to know about using a jump starter or anything.... they just press the keyfob that you leave in the glove compartment, start the car and drive away. So if it raining... doesn't matter no need to get wet.... anyway that is a massive feature. And you will never be locked out of your frunk, just press the keyfob to get energy to the car again. But AFTER you use this feature you will need to recharge your battery with a charger again becuase it is in an over-discharged state. -Cons. Lithium is expensive, it is the cost of the Lithium Cells and also the Battery Management System. So it is simply a higher cost to produce compared to a commodity like a Lead/Acid battery. For some it will be a sticking point, and others they will feel the benefits of not being stranded, 2x-3x the lifespan, and the performance benefits are worth it. But that is for the Consumer to decide. We have 4 sales a year in general and one during the Black Friday times offering 15% off. Then we have a general Rennlist Member discount always if you reach out to us. But when you compare our battery to other Brands on the market we are MUCH less expensive and offer FAR more in safety and features. So in our niche we are quite a ways in front of the competion. For example some of you may have heard of Braille Lithium Batteries, or Lithium Pros. You can do your research. As for other cons , one could be sever Cold Weather... meaning below Freezing weather continously. Going up skiing for a few weeks in below freezing weather is perfectly fine with this battery, and we done that ourselves many times and tested there, but having a Truck that is sitting in Fairbanks Alaska during the below 0 temps is not its forte, though that is being addressed in some upcoming stuff. But for the regular persons who drive in any region the bateries work fine.

How would this battery behave in an over voltage event where the voltage regulator has failed and the alternator is putting out 16V ? Asking because I think I almost exploded my small PC680 from such an event. I am really intrigued about putting one of these in my car, despite how expensive they are. My main concerns is I have always thought of batteries as a consumable. If I'm spending over $700 - I want it to be just another part, not one I expect to replace at regular intervals. Given the difficulty I have had with the PC680 that worked great when the car was M96 powered, now with the big LS, it is very apparent I need a real battery to get it to reliably crank.

What allcool says about the membrane is correct. If the membrane is punctured...but the membrane can also fail if the battery maker tries to save money by buying a cheap membrane. There are ranges of membrane quality.

Gasoline can also explode if the fuel tank is punctured in an accident.

@Antigravity in addition to the question above from @zbomb , I have another question. Sorry for hijacking the topic at hand. I also have the Antigravity Battery Tracker (Lithium). I put in a feature request almost a year ago. Right now, the voltage log is only available as an image in the App, which is fine to see that it's charged, but it's otherwise kind of useless. Why can't I export the data as a csv file or something useful? The data is there in the app to make the graph! Exporting to a file should be trivial. I would like to post data about how long my battery will last on the 996 when unlocked, vs locked, and to analyze the parasitic drain, but I can't from an image.

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The onboard Battery Management System would handle that. According to my user guide, it has Over-Charge, Over-Discharge, Short-Circuit, and Thermal protections. It also has cell balancing to extend its life.

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I agree, the Battery Tracker is such a cool item. I use one on all my cars and tell others about it all the time. I fully agree that the existing app is ridiculously outdated. I think they hired an outside company to develop it as the Apple app store has a bunch of similar apps that all look basically the same. I wish AntiGravity would update the app. Please do better @Antigravity . I also think, at a certain price point, the battery tracker should be built into the battery. The list price for the battery I have is $950 or somewhere around there. At that price, the Battery Tracker should be included.

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I'm sure you're aware but for those less informed (like me ): Even though both carry 'po' in their designation, LiFePO4 is not a Li-Polymer battery. In the former it stands for the atoms P(hosphor) and O(xygen, 4 of those) that form the phosphate, in the latter it is just short for Polymer. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...52152X16301220

I appreciate the honesty in the info from anti gravity since I use my car until my local idiots start salting the lithium probably won�t work for me I do enjoy a winter drive especially in my new to me Turbo S with all seasons tires

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As someone noted above our battery has a Battery Management system that protects from several issues such as over-discharge which is the most common by far, but also again over-charging and over-voltage/over-current types of things. So it would not be harmed by those things. BUT, I must say that our battery DOES NOT CORRECT the issue in terms of changing the voltage to the correct voltage when it is being over-charged, it just doesn't allow the over-charging through to the battery cells to harm it. So, when that protection kicks in, the battery will be clipping the voltage and your car would most likely get flags. So just wanted to make that clear so that people don't think the battery is correcting a faulty Voltage Regulator, or other part of the system. Those issues will need to be addressed even though our battery will not be harmed by them, a We had people ask about that so I wanted to bring it up. On another note what vehicle was the Oddesey 680 in, a 996? I'm sure an 680 could start a 996 fine but it a bit small for some applications because if over-discharged and/or a high charge is being put back into a smaller battery then it could cause the lead acid battery to fail and bloat a bit. In some systems you need a large enough battery capacity to take the higher charge rate. But as you said your system was over-charging so a larger battery might handle that a little better for the short term but eventually it would be damaged also. I'm bring up this point because we have some people who are using or wanting to use very small Lithium Batteries in thier cars, and while the battery will easily start the car it really doesn't have the capacity to absorb a higher charger current and voltage fast when it doesn't have the larger Amp Hour Capacity to absorb it as well as a larger battery. Hope that makes sense.

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When we originally designed the Battery Tracker we were thinking just a super simple easy to use product. We were not even sure how people would like it and it turned out a lot did, and also some said, even though they never used one, that is was a dumb idea and why would anyone want to track their battery data. In any event, in the last 2years we have been focusing on some new products, and updating of some products, so those have been the main focus. For example we now have a software based BMS in our newest Motorcycle Batteries (the automotive side already had software based BMS), that is a big deal and no other companies making the Motorcycles Batteries have that yet. Then we are coming out with our own Battery Charger Line of products that we will have available in 2-Amp , 4-Amp and 10-Amp Models to start with. Last, we are working on the third generation of Auto Batteries now also. So, the issue is we have to focus on the key products that are our main showcases, then we can go back to look at the Battery Tracker update. But your idea is great and it was asked about before on Rennlist , perhaps by you, and we actually noted it in our updates file. We think and hope the new products will be all complete by end of first quarter next year we can start to look at the Battery Tracker update. I personally would like it to be available to connect to the internet so that a customer can view their stored cars voltage even if they store the car at another house. This way they know if they are over discharging their battery because we have a lot of Car Collectors using these also.

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Thanks for the response, totally get the battery won't fix a faulty regulator - I was just looking to understand that in the event (like I had) a regulator failed, it wouldn't take out the expensive battery with it. The PC680 was in a 996 - actually my 2nd PC680. The first one lasted a couple years (track use only) and worked really well as long as kept on the maintainer. I swapped a 6.2LS in and the old battery would really struggle to light it up. Bought another thinking that time had passed the first one by and while it was better, I only got to use it for a couple starts before the voltage regulator failed and pumped 16 or 17 volts through the system making the battery turn hot as the sun - that killed battery number 2. Normally, the system charges at 13.7 or so volts. Even with the new PC680, it was a weak start, hence me wanting to go to something more reasonable going forward as with all the extra power, another 15 pounds or so is a lot more manageable as long as I can keep the weight low and central. But, your guys battery seems like a cake and eat it too deal, just an expensive cake. Thanks for the response.

I'm running an H8 Group 94 now (4 year old NAPA AGM), and see that the weight diff between your line's H8 (20 lbs) and my AGM (61 lbs) is around 41 lbs. That is a lot. I recently pondered removing my AWD front diff and axles as I was just in there for torn boots, but I can get 40 lbs savings here versus the 73 lb net savings removing the front diff !

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Wow, that's $19 a pound. That's salmon territory.

@Antigravity Any deals coming up?

I was lucky enough to pickup an AGH640RS from fcpeuro on sale last year for $746. A bit of overkill but I’ve not had to worry about starting the car after it’s sat idle for more than a few days. Very happy with the battery!

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Hi 2mAn, you can reach out to me at [email removed] and we can certainly see what we can do to help you out otherwise our next sales event should be taking place over Black Friday/Cyber Monday. Best regards, Chad

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Just curious, at what over voltage/over current does your Battery Management system kick in..? Will BM clipping cycle in and out constantly as volts go up down..? if so whats the differential..? At what low voltage (total discharge protection) does BM cut out all power output..? What flags would we see...? When you say "clipping" does this mean it reduces voltage/current to acceptable levels, thus allowing some current in below clipping threshold, or does it totally cut out the volts/current to 0..?

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Those are all very good questions... as far as the parameters of the BMS I cannot go into that specifically since it proprietary to our design, and has other things going on such as duration and other data points to achieve what it does. As far as how the BMS does it protections, while it is proprietary I can get you in the ball park by saying there is nothing that happens where the battery is trying to reduce voltages to acceptable levels. The battery is only designed to protect itself from damage and not correct an out of spec condition. It does have some overhead in certain directions so it is not just going into protection mode ***** nilly, but if the cars system exceeds certain specs it will protect the battery cell pack. It depends on the range above its threshold of allowable over-voltage , and then will do clipping or a hard shut off in terms of allowing voltage or energy through to the Lithium battery pack. But if the over-voltage condition goes away then the BMS will then go back to normal also. As far as the types of flags you will see it is only on the voltage and battery related flags side of things, which in most cases are Power Steering flags since the Porsches have electric power steering, you will possibly see a rear steering flag if you have a GT3 or other 4 wheel steering Porsche which is again on the electric steering side, you can also have the Battery low warning, or a general voltage warning. But you will not have other system flags that are not related to voltages. This is the same warnings you get with a Lead/Acid Battery in a Porsche when the battery is low. But generally speaking, it is honestly pretty rare for the protections to be doing anything since most cars are working within spec and the most often use protection for our battery is the OVER-DISCHARGE protection since that is the main issue that most everyone in their life encounter simply becuase of longer storage or leaving some accessory on. Let me know if that answered your questions.

When my voltage spiked it immediately threw the ABS into fault mode... Apparently the ABS module doesn't like 16 Volts... Who knew.

Charging my new AG battery (per instructions/ charge fully before install) with the CTEK LiFePO4 to install later today. I ended up buying a 60ah with the Black Friday sale. I figured for just a little more I got an additional 20ah and the battery weighed in at 18.2 lbs. I will post a before and after with my yellow top optima for weight difference.

One note new Antigravity users should keep in mind - don't lean on the self-jumping function as a habit. I like my AG and it lives in my track car, but always on a CTek charger. A few acquaintances who did not do this found the batteries dead after sitting a whole off-season under parasitic drain with no trickle. The BMS is good, but it can't compensate for truly bad ownership.

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Thanks for the feedback. It�s good to know that these batteries are still a battery and need to be treated as such when sitting for a few months. I have already placed the fob in the center console as a back up / safety in case something is left on- that�s the first step! i might me reading too hard into this but can you charge the battery while it�s installed in car? trickle charge in vehicle? Also, is there an operations for jumping? The CTEK charger has you hook up leads first then plug into wall- is this to prevent a surge, safety protocol with the LiFePo batteries ability to catch fire / haz mat? I did not see anything in the manual regarding jumping in case of last effort/ battery completely dead. TIA.

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Adding to the conversation. For sure can charge the battery in the ca. As an FYI, these batteries are extremely durable and not something that is going to fail or be harmed easily. They are in trucks doing the King of the Hammers and Baja 1000 (big hardcore off-road racing)... so they are tough. Also from the electronics standpoints they have full protections from most things that would damage a battery like overcharging over voltage, overdischarge and other stuff. The key thing is to not let it over discharge AFTER it is already gone into its protective SLEEP MODE. For example the SLEEP MODE occurs if the battery is over-discharged deeply by things like long term storage, or leaving the accessories on and the battery being drained to the point that its voltage has gone to the critical point where it needs to go into Sleep Mode to protect itself.... which you then use the RE-START feature to start it again. But if you leave it in SLEEP MODE too long.... then it can over-discharge to the point of damage. But this is about 2 to 4 months AFTER it has gone into sleep mode, depending if you have a 40Ah or a 60 Ah version. There is still a very mild draw on the battery from the Battery Management system even when in sleep mode, but it can eventually damage the Battery. But this requires gross negligence and a pretty severe lack of maintenance. We have only seen it happen a few times and it usually because the car was stored over a year without any battery maintenance...

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Yep you can, I've been doing this for a few seasons. Getting away with using a motorcycle sized ATX20.