53 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHName that noise!! Engine tick
Leading reported evidence
Replace oil
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Leading evidence: 'Replace oil' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'pulleys, replaced those and the belt, still ticked' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check loose ones without just' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Outcome qualification: Negation, uncertainty or missing explicit repair resolution overrides the raw extraction signal.
Replace plugs and coils and no more ticking
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I changed the plugs and coils and no more ticking.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I thought it was the pulleys, replaced those and the belt, still ticked.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
53 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 1 adjusted by outcome qualification.
1 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Background:
Been making this noise since I got it randomly, also seems worse in colder weather.
Only at idle, and only after sitting at idle for a while.. Passenger side.
Goes away with throttle addition.
Car runs really great, so smoke no oil or coolant loss.
Oil was changed 2k miles ago with 0w40. And filter dissection has been clean since I bought it. 102k miles on it now.
http://youtu.be/OsCn_j0c5wI
Thoughts?
Loose spark plug?
Oil too thin?
Water pump?
Exploding metal death even though it's been fine for 12k miles and hasn't gotten worse or showing any negative effects other than sounding like a jalopy?
Check for loose spark plugs. If not, my next guess is bank 2 bore scoring. I hope I'm wrong though. It's not difficult to inspect the cylinders with a borescope.
Ordered a boroscope camera. Interesting development though. Added seafoam to the oil, after a drive home from work and lots of idling the noise is gone... So spark plugs seem less likely.
Will start researching bore scoring.
Really hope it's just a sticky lifter but the sound is quite solid and dull in the video..could be just the recording though.
More importantly the rhythm of the knocking is close to one per ignition (i.e., ~6-8 times/sec @ idle).
Another forum member "Van" has a cylinder scoring and this is his video
Knocking noise in 996 engine - YouTube
If you read all the threads for 'ticking' the consensus is bad,real bad.
I did read most of them because I had that issue. I was convinced it was lifters until the tick became a knock.....I hope your Seafoam works.
Seafoam is working to throughly clean entire engine & deposit all the crap into the lifters where it will stay due to the tight clearance design .
Change oil A.S.A.P.!!
If this were my car I would just keep driving it until one or the other of those statements I highlighted was no longer true. As the cure for bore scoring is a new engine or complete rebuild, and even a complete valve job is pushing 6 grand unless you DIY, I would drive mine until it became much worse. I would risk the far-fetched chance of damaging something badly enough to incur additional core charges.
Dissect filter,inspect bottom of sump plate.Hope you don't find 'gold'. Worst case, you eliminate bearing issues,find early warning of chainramp deterioration. Cheap and easy PM.The armchair diagnostics is of little help in my experience.
my brittle timing chain/pads/rails....to give you an idea
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I do, but in all the years I was into auto mechanics and rebuilding engines, noises repeating at half crank speed was a clear hint it was valve train noise, and if the noise happened at crank speed it was a hint at bottom-end, including piston slap. Are these flat sixes different? Because all the indie Porsche mechanics I've spoken with said lifters tick at half rate and pistons slap at full. If they don't know what they're talking about then it's pretty scary.
If you check out the video in post #9, that's a confirmed cylinder scoring (you can PM "Van" to confirm). Now count how many ticks/sec. I counted 6~7 ticks/sec, which is about half the idle crank speed (~700 rpm). You will hear again and again this rhythm on all the other similar confirmed cases.
If what the mechanics said were right, all these video you should be 11~12 ticks per second. You be the judge
I can post more videos if ppl are interested.
Hmm, my car would make similar sound on the passenger side only when cold though. It was fainter, but you could definitely hear it. After it would warm up it was never present. Interesting.
Not sure if it's universal in all cases but this video shows the worn piston skirt makes the piston top hit the head hence the knocking sound
You can see how shinny that area is (part of the piston top). Also note the length of the scored area in the cylinder. Definitely something you will be able to see with a boroscope from the spark plug holes.
2002 Porsche 911 Engine Noise - YouTube
Well if cylinder scoring
and
lifter noise both sound alike and both occur at half the crank speed then the tapping noise is not specific to either one, and therefore unless there are other concurrent symptoms (such as smoking, one oil-sooted tailpipe, or excessive oil consumption), the tick could just as well be a lifter, and bore-scoring is an incidental finding because the owner or a mechanic scopes it.
Not a bad idea though, because even if a $6k lifter job would stop the tapping, nobody would want to spend that on an engine with cylinders in the process of failing.
Personally as I said before, if hypothetically the only symptom my engine with 60K+ was exhibiting was a mild tapping for a minute or two during warmup, I wouldn't be in any hurry to throw thousands of dollars at it.
Never bothered looking for causes, I am was not paranoid Porsche owner. I got the car with 117k miles, it made that noise when cold. I sold it with 130k+ miles 1.5 years later and it made same noise when cold. It drove fine, never used any oil and based on the acceleration videos was very healthy. I assumed it was a worn lifter as it would tick/knock only when you started the car and engine was cold, it never made the noise when engine was warm.
That how mine started out, it will eventually get louder and start burning oil, sometimes even mine even goes away depending on how it positioned. It likes high rpm and no problem redlining it for ever. I think it's worn in enough that it won't have a problem but I dread idling, I think that will be the killer one day.
Jumper, I remember your case...quite extreme and most experts think your engine won't last that long.
BTW, another good video by Jud (Flat 6 innovation) that can probably help diagnosing whether it's a lifter or scored cylinder.
Porsche M96 Cylinder Failing - YouTube
I would agree that a borescope exam would be useful to
confirm
the diagnosis when symptoms such as oil consumption and/or smoking and/or the sooty tailpipe are present. From what I've read and been told, many if not most times a borescope will reveal some evidence of light scoring in almost all cylinder walls in all engines with many thousands of miles on them. Getting a diagnosis of scoring is not, to me, the same as a diagnosis of engine failure prompting a rebuild. For me there would have to be some additional quantified criteria, such as noise level of the knocking and whether it goes away shortly as the engine warms up and expansion negates the slap or is present always; and amount of oil consumption.
It would be the same if imaging showed me to have cataracts or deterioration in my knees or hips. I would not get surgery unless it was impacting my QOL, so unless I had symptoms that
were
impacting my QOL, I wouldn't pay to have imaging done.
No one suggested rebuild (definitely I did not). The OP asks what causes the noise and I'm just trying to answer that question. Agree with you. No action needed as long as noise doesn't come back.
And you take that car to Mosport?! Amazing how much you can get out of that engine.
It very well may be. I plan to scope and get a better look. I have driven 400 miles since adding the seafoam on the off Chance it was a sticking lifter, and the car has been noise free and actually most likely directly tied in with the noise reduction the oil pressure is up to almost 2bar at idle.
I am not overly concerned as the car still runs extremely well, and of course at some point I will have to have been considering rebuilding anyway. In the meantime I will be enjoying the car as is and letting tomorrow worry about itself.
The updates will continue.
This is what I call squeezing the most out of a potential bad situation. Drive it till it dies. It may just outlast you or your ownership while still providing some smiles.
You should also note to these guys that some of those 50km involved track miles too IIRC.
My thinking is, if there was an inexpensive fix for scoring in its early stages that would avert needing to rebuild or exchange the engine, then I would see the urgency to get it scoped ASAP upon hearing the start of cold-idle ticking. (I'm excluding the option of pawning the car off on an unsuspecting buyer). But given there is no other fix, my personal preference would be to drive it until it was smoking embarrassingly and/or using oil excessively. Even a qt of oil every 500 miles is still much cheaper than a new engine. If the car could be driven another 5-10K miles or a year, that would give the person time to save up for a new engine, and put that many fewer miles on the new one.
I remember years ago driving cars tens of thousands of miles with piston slap and using more oil than normal. Maybe that colors my outlook. I do understand the concept of wanting one's Porsche in tip-top condition though. And, the concept of being disgusted that these cars have this kind of issue at such low mileage relatively-speaking for German cars. Our '03 e-class ran 130K miles with zero engine issues, our mechanic said he has customers with over 300K on them likewise, no slap, no measurable oil consumption between changes etc. Honestly had I known these Pcars had such problems (aside from the random odd failure) I would not have bought one, and I won't be buying another.
I am really not upset at these cars at all really it is an aging super car. Built to drive hard for short periods of time. I wonder if Porsche ever intended to see 200k miles out of these? Either way I am going to drive the wheels off mine, then do it again. I hope my problems were minor, I don't believe in snake oil but if mine has a scored cyl then so far seafoam magically repaired it.
Yeah, it certainly has turned me off from purchasing another one. I was looking at replacing my SUV with a Cayenne but I've read about scoring issues on those also.
hopefully my rebuild makes me love this brand all over again. was a dream of mine to own this car and it's turned into a real life nightmare.
I haven't read but the first few posts. The symptoms and noise from the video sound very similar to mine before.
Change the plugs. It worked for me. 1 must of been loose or something. It's to damn hard to take the plugs out to check for loose ones without just replacing (unless they're new I guess )
I agree it's a super car, and I agree it's aging. But Porsches were always known for remarkable durability even in the days when the average car needed a valve job at 40K and rings by 100K. Sure each generation had its achilles heel(s) but the water-cooled era seems to have ushered in a couple of pretty odious ones by comparison.
I am not at all sure Porsche intended they see 200K, in fact I have my doubts
any
car is built for that in these days if lease-it-and-move-on, although I am fairly certain they didn't intend for them to go udder-up during the warranty period, or to be involved in and found liable in a class-action suit (and it's beginning to look like bore scoring is at least as common as IMS if not more).
I'm going to drive the wheels off mine too, because I like the car better than any other I've ever owned (and I've owned a lot!). I'd rather sink $20K into a new engine (upgraded with better IMS and cylinders among other things) than sink the same $20K into depreciation on a car I enjoy less. That said, I was (and still am, perhaps wishful thinking) counting on getting at least 100K out of it before needing major work and I'd happily switch from Mobil 1 to snake oil if it would save me the cost of a new engine
You would think, mine didn't. I thought it was the pulleys, replaced those and the belt, still ticked. Changed oil, filter, etc, still ticked. Thought for sure it was internal and figured oh well drive it. Everything is good except the noise. Then I'm driving (3 months later or so), coming up a hill, driving in a fun manor, and heard the mis fire, it stumbled, I pulled over. Ran codes, it was a mis fire. I changed the plugs and coils and no more ticking. I didn't do the tubes, which I need to but didn't have the time.
So moral of my rant, it will pull codes, just took for ever in my case.
Interesting that after the misfire code you
replaced the plugs
and that fixed the ticking noise. Suggests you may have been able to fix it by simply re-torquing the plugs?
Earlier:"off chance it was a sticking lifter"
-if you ever dismantle an M96 with defective lifters ,you often find the two nesting lifter cups are jammed together. Try and separate them. Even after soaking in penetrating oil for weeks it is likely they remain 'hammered' together. You often need a vise and channel-locks to separate the two halves to inspect inside.
I can not imagine how Seafoam could 'fix' such lifter issues.
It is not unusual for many,even the majority of the 24 lifters to be defective. INA had a bad run....
On a meticulously maintained car it seems easier to locate the specific cause because there are no neglected PM issues.
Overall it is very perplexing. Now that the ticking has stopped I do hear some faint muffled air whisps. So I may have an exhaust leak or a loose plug after all, or I may be a nut. The car is whisper quiet especially when compared to every other vehicle in my driveway. 700 miles in on the seafoam Magic genie in a bottle tick repair and quiet as a mouse..
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
