24 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHCam position deviation via Durametric
Leading reported evidence
Check early '99 c2, i had your same concerns
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
When I checked my early '99 C2, I had your same concerns for much the same reasons.
Leading evidence: 'Check early '99 c2, i had your same concerns' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'bug or limitation in the bosch firmware' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check early '99 c2, i had your same concerns' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I checked today and yes, the Foxwell agrees with the Durametric FWIW.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I used a prybar to jam the accelerator pedal to the floor.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that suspect a cause
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause · Original poster
It makes me wonder if the issue is a bug or limitation in the Bosch firmware.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
The reading is steady irrespective of RPM, so I am guessing the reason it increases with temperature is because chain length may change a bit as the chain warms up.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
Ideally I'd be checking this variance every oil change, the problem for me is we'll get much less notice when quality is diminishing due to this quantization.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
Completely disconnecting the battery and touching the positive and negative cables will completely drain the capacitors and clear all memory and is called a hard reset.the down side is you will have to reteach DME, transmission, seat memory, sunroof, windows, radio, clock, mirrors, ect.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
24 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T091943Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
I bought a Durametric Diagnostic Tool to see what the DME is reporting about my engine. The car is a C2 1999 Gen1 996.
Firstly, I was disappointed to discover it has DME 5.2.2 which has much fewer parameters than the model in Jake Raby's video -
You Tube
But my main concern is, under the "Actual Values" panel, "Camshaft position deviation 1" is constant 0.0 and "Camshaft position 2 deviation (us models only)" is constant -3.0.
There are NO error codes in the DME and NO dashboard warning lights to indicate a problem with the camshaft sensors, so I guess the sensors are ok?
Could the issue be the Durametric software at fault? ie Not fully compatible reading the sensors via DME 5.2.2 on these earlier cars?
I see, I mistakenly thought the values should move around a little bit, watching the video again has proven this not to be the case. Anything potentially IMSB failure related has obviously gotten me a little bit jumpy.
As an engineer when I see zeros after the decimal point, I start to mistrust the values...
Is it possible the 3.0 degrees of variance is wear related? What are the typical variances these engines had when they were new?
The 5.2 DME is much simpler, since it does not have E- gas, variously-cam Plus, and many other things that the 7.2 DME and later have. The differences in the menus, and resources within the 5.2 DME are the least of all that are associated with these cars, as well as the resolution of the data.
This video was actually part of an IMS Solution pre- qualification video, and was broken out as a special feature. The content I am going over in the video is specifically focused on IMS Solution pre- qualification cam deviations. I plan to shoot a very in depth Durametric video for paid Rennvision members in a few weeks. We may offer the Durametric online classes in 2021; I am not sure yet. I don't really want to do any classes next year.
Well this is certainly a timely post. When I checked my early '99 C2, I had your same concerns for much the same reasons.
My readout from a few weeks ago...
I might be reading too much in between the lines here, but are you suggesting 5.2 DME can only compute whole numbers for the cam variance or output lower resolution to the diagnostic port? If so, I am wondering if using a volt meter and logging via oscilloscope might be a better path for reading cam\crank position variance on older 996's.
I will be signing up for the online Durametric classes next year if they go ahead.
This is good confirmation.
Ideally I'd be checking this variance every oil change, the problem for me is we'll get much less notice when quality is diminishing due to this quantization. It would help if there was some way of getting confirmation that this is not the Durametric software misinterpreting the values and it is a DME 5.2 problem with how the values are converted from analog, stored or computed or output to the diagnostic port. I'd guess it is at least a 16bit microprocessor in there. (Googling showed up nothing for me).
This is not surprising on DME 5.2.2 using Durametric, even the DME has trouble with handling cam positions on 99 c2's.
I think it stems from the DME can be coded to ROW (1 sensor) or USA LEV II (2 sensors) and both sensors send their signal over the same wire to the DME (they're spliced together in the wire loom) so the DME has to figure out which signal is bank 1 or 2 (and doesn't always get this right).
I had a 99 one time giving a p1342 after the customer had grossly mistimed the cams (after rebuild).After correcting the cam timing code p1342 was still present, and was still there after substituting a known good sensor and cam actuator. I had to do a "hard reset" on the DME to clear the bad judgement from the DME on cam sensors learned values.
Capacitors are like little batteries that store power, modern electronics has many of them. They can sometimes store power for hours. Clearing fault codes doesn't clear all memory, disconnecting the battery for 30 min doesn't always clear all memory. Completely disconnecting the battery and touching the positive and negative cables will completely drain the capacitors and clear all memory and is called a hard reset.the down side is you will have to reteach DME, transmission, seat memory, sunroof, windows, radio, clock, mirrors, ect.
What's the chances of both of y'all having the exact same Cam Deviations to the tenth of a degree (even if they are on opposite banks)? On a 99 C2 I usually take cam deviations with a big pinch of salt.
Zero.
It makes me wonder if the issue is a bug or limitation in the Bosch firmware. I guess tuners are merely modifying a\f ratio tables vs load\revs and nobody has actually debugged the microprocessor code and reverse engineered why the DME is getting these values.
Socal, I tried my Autotel but didn't notice any camshaft position field, but I will try tomorrow with the engine running. I have a side question about my Throttle Position readings. Is it supposed to go from 0-100%? Mine only goes 0-80%, should I get excited and find I can replace TP sensor and get 20% more throttle? (Picture taken with accelerator to the floor) I will check this on the Durametric tomorrow also.
With the engine off and ignition on, the Foxwell read 'throttle plate angle' at 71% with the pedal to the floor. I'll check it again with the engine running.
It sounds like TP reading of 70-80% at full throttle (engine off) is correct.
I thought about seeing the TP% while the engine on, but then I thought against that.
(1) You don't want to trigger a stage 1 over rev event.
(2) You don't want to be driving and looking at the code reader.
So I did the following to verify.
I checked with engine off.
I plugged my Durametric in.
I used a prybar to jam the accelerator pedal to the floor.
I placed my laptop on the car roof so I could see the screen while standing at the engine bay. The graph was plotting 81% constantly.
I used my finger at the throttle body to try and open it more but it would not open any further. The graph plot continued at 81%.
I have a weird problem. My Durametric appears not to be able to read camshaft deviation on bank 1. On Bank 2 the deviation is ~0.5 degrees on startup and then when the engine warms up it get to ~1.2 degree. The reading is steady irrespective of RPM, so I am guessing the reason it increases with temperature is because chain length may change a bit as the chain warms up. Either way, no issues on bank 2. However, bank 1 remaining at 0.00 suggests to me not a perfect timing, but that the software simply can't read bank 1 deviation. I have no camshaft position sensor issues and I can monitor Actual angle for inlet camshaft on bank 1 and 2. Anyone know why I can't read bank 1 camshaft deviation?
I should have specified that mine is a 2002, so I have the 3.6 engine. From what I found online the RoW tune on early cars only have bank 1, while all other should have bank 1 and 2 camshaft position deviation. Even if my car were to somehow have RoW tune, bank 1 should always be there and it is the bank 2 that may be zeroed out in that case. How do I confirm the software on my car. I purchased it 4 years ago. I always assumed that it was factory tune, but I don't know how to confirm that. Can any other issue lead to bank 1 not showing a reading for bank 1 camshaft deviation?
FYI I found, using the Durametric logging, that the ratio of pedal position to actual throttle position is variable based on a variety of factors. I
think
they include engine temp, clutch position, among other things. This obviously only applies to egas models, but worth noting before you go too far down a rabbit hole chasing things.
