IMS Retrofit Pro vs. Classic

I am considering an IMS replacement. I have a 40th AE (single row bearing) and I need to decide between the LN IMS Retrofit Pro versus the Classic. The PRO design (dual row to replace the single) makes sense but the Classic has a proven track record. Thoughts? Has anyone installed the PRO and if so, I would appreciate feedback.

I am getting ready for one as well - and have done this before with same mechanic. I asked him this question and his thoughts are this...replace with the proven. I actually have a problem with this and he and I are going to discuss further because I feel like the dual row is stronger. I look at the IMS as a service item. I will replace every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. My clutch is 21,000 miles old so I will not have them do it...but at first clutch...IMS will change again. I am doing more homework and appreciate this thread, but I am leaning toward dual row myself.

I honestly don't think anyone has the mileage yet to really make a decision one way or the other. I say that not necessarily as a skeptic of the product, even though I am, but having just done it myself so I can potentially sell the car. According to LN's own documentation retrofit vs. solution, "If you do not love your car, or don’t plan on keeping it forever, then choose the Classic IMS Retfofit Bearing from LN Engineering and enjoy the car for 50,000 miles."

The dual row bearings seem to suffer from an extremely low seizure rate (mine came out perfect, FWIW), so I would recommend going that way for additional peace of mind and happy miles. The marginal cost is slight given the scope of the issue and cost of the installation procedure. Jake has his way about him (so do we all) but his stuff is incredibly well engineered so the natural benefits of a dual row versus single row bearing likely would flow through to the Pro versus Classic scenario. If my car had a single row bearing I would go the Pro route for certain.

Had the Pro version installed by my indy this spring (my 996 had the single row). He has done a number of the Classic installs and said the Pro was no more difficult and the installation went smoothly - he did have to buy the new tool. From what I understand LN and Jake developed the Pro version as an evolution in their engineering research. The theory behind the Pro made sense to me (2 are stronger, can support more than 1) and given the reliability of their earlier work, I went with the Pro version. All good so far, but agree not many miles yet.

I too favor the PRO because the price difference is minimal and, in theory, the dual row should be stronger. My concern remains longevity. My mechanic has installed both (or so he says) and he too recommends going with the Classic because of the proven track record. For low mileage use, it may not matter at all. 1 PGH 1 - now many miles to date do you have on your PRO? Thanks....

I've put 10k mi. on mine since I got it this time last year. That would give me about 5 years of driving before doing the IMS again using LN's logic. I'm very interested in reports of the higher mileage dual row unit. (Although it STILL comes down to the Hurdi philosophy--don't worry, be happy. ) TC

Wouldn't the PRO require a brand new tool as the tools from the Classic are not re-usable? That means price difference + investment in tools ($300?).

I always struggle balancing the somewhat know failure rate of the dual row in my 99 (very low, according to the class action) vs the really UNKNOWN failure rate of all the aftermarket solutions (whether blamed on a "poor installation"..or the engine should "not have been eligible for retro fit".. or whatever.. it does not matter when it grenades). The failure rates of the solutions are a big question mark. It is nice to hear some real experiences with the retrofits. Ill bite the bullet and jump on the wagon as my clutch is due, but somehow I wonder......

Quotes source post: 11580529

Installed in May '14 and have no more than 1,500 miles since - combination of freeway and stop 'n go 'rush' hour ... but then again, I don't put on many miles and it goes away in the winter. Part of the reason I wanted to replace it ... bit of a garage queen.

The products we have developed continue to evolve. The dual row bearing of the "Pro" has 90% more load carrying capacity than the Classic single row. Today few people are buying the Classic bearings, because the "Pro" and the IMS Solution both offer much greater load carrying capacity. The cost of the Classic bearings is going up September 1, due to a reduced volume of sales as the "Pro" takes over the role as the primary IMSR product. In a few years I doubt the Classic will even be offered.. But what do I know, I'm just the idea man.

Jake ??? According to the invoice from Flat 6, my 2000 C4 (January 2000 build date) had a Dual Row IMS bearing installed by the PO 4 years and over 20,000 miles ago. All is well so far, but I have to ask... what is the difference in the old Dual Row that I have and the New Pro Dual Row being sold today?

Quotes source post: 11585900

We did the work here? If so you'll have a bubble top decal in the driver's door jamb that has our logo and a specific serial # that was assigned to that VIN and the IMSR flange that was fitted to the car. If this is not in place, then we didn't do the work as every single IMSR that we have installed has received this. I had these made and we apply them and have them matched to a database because otherwise someone could claim that we did the work when we didn't. We've even had people make fake invoices to sell their car, but they got themselves busted due to the system that we have in place. The Single Row Pro is the same dual row bearing that we've used since the beginning. The difference is we've made the unit a European width and fitted it with a special locking ring on the outer diameter that allows the dual row bearing to be fitted to a single row shaft. The Single Row Pro is nothing more than a dual row bearing that can be fitted to a single row shaft, but the magic happens with the Raby Faultless Installation Tool and Patent Pending (unlike others we've actually followed through with our Patents, not just gotten a Provisional for marketing purposes that we've allowed to lapse) that compresses the ring on the outer diameter of the Pro bearing and also delivers that bearing into the single row shaft. The Single Row Pro is only applicable to single row IMS outfitted vehicles. If someone has a dual row the classic bearing, the unit has evolved quite a bit over the years; but today its still the same proven technology that we've been delivering since 2007. To be clear: A Single Row Pro dual row bearing cannot be fitted to an original dual row IMS unit. The Classic Dual Row is used for all of those aplications.

Having the pro installed as I type this on my new to me 04 996.

For those installing the Pro, did you have to supply the install tool yourself, at an additional cost of $400, or your shop already have that? Would be a rather expensive exercise ($900+$40) if have to buy both, might as well install the Solution.

From everything I've seen, the Faultless tool sells for around $700 so if you're supplying yourself... No reason NOT to do the solution, in my opinion. A few hundred bucks more and you're at least in the same place for parts cost.

I just upgraded mine and I went with Classic; tested and tried. The dual looks better and theoretically should be more bullet proof, but it's new. Perhaps the next time I upgrade (if I still have my 996), I'll go with dual.

My shop had the tool. They have done a few...

I find it ironic that the "faultless" tool can offer basically an idiot proof install, however it may not really guarantee anything if there is no pre qualification phase done on the engine. The IXX retrofit regardless of which version gives a false sense to the owner if there is still debris in the motor from a lack of prequalification phase. Obviously having that decal(unless China starts making and selling reps) should make one worry less, if you are naturally a worry wart.

The Faultless Tool only facilitates bearing extraction and insertion. These are the simplest, most straight forward pieces of the IMS Retrofit procedure and the hardest to screw up with the tool. What matters above all else is the pre- qualification procedure and time being spent to ensure that the engine does not have some hidden, in progress failure. The issue is IF a shop finds an issue will their employee who is doing the work have the integrity to stop and bring the condition to someone's attention? Its not his shop or his engine, but it is his commission if the job gets canceled due to some issue that makes it no longer be a viable IMSR candidate. IMS Solution Certified Installers will lose their certification if they do not follow the code of conduct that is agreed to up front, which is very clear. Just last week we completed another M96/ M97 hands on school here and that class netted us 4 more potential Certified Installers for the IMS Solution as they were invited to begin the evaluation processes. Two of these were Canadian, the other two were from the US. The practice of bearing extraction and insertion is so simple that a 12 year old could do it, its the rest of the process that requires sense and situational awareness.

Quotes source post: 11588199

So at least 75% of these people that have had the IXX procedure done elsewhere most likely without proper pre-qualification are getting false sense of security and should have them redone or stay awake at night worrying if they have debris or impending damage. Yes I'm playing the new KK role. Lol

Pre- qualifications are nothing new. In fact from the very first day that I developed the IMSR procedure the precursor to it was a clearly defined pre- evaluation. In the beginning, 6-7 years ago we never had issues with people following directives to the T, because the procedure was new and considered "black art", because Porsche said the IMSB couldn't even be removed. Shops and techs were afraid of the job and because of that they did not take risks, nor did they deviate from the procedure at all. Fast forward to late last year when the class action was hot news and IMSB sales increased by a few hundred percent in a couple of months, because the issue was finally "real" to all the naysayers. This created a huge shockwave of issues because shops were fighting 9and still are) to get all the IMS work they could and take it from the other guy. With this came more experience with the jobs and with that came a sense of over achievement by techs. This is the root of the issue because they started to cut corners and that allowed the work to be done faster, and therefore they could do it cheaper than the competing shop across town. What made it worse is owners price shopping shops rather than understanding that quality work trumps cheap work when concerning Porsche engines. Today we receive 2-3 complaints per week from people stating that Midas mufflers did their IMSR, or even a big rig shop, or like today, a unit was installed at a Pep Boys by a guy that changes tires all day. These people are competing with Porsche shops and making the shops that used to be good lower their standards just to get the work. Don't think that just because your shop has 30-40 years of experience that they are good, because those shops are constantly having the issues too, and often they are the leaders of the problem because they are busy and rush through things. Things like dumping used oil with 5-8K on it back into the engine with a fresh IMSR fitted, rushing the job by not pulling the sump or even removing the oil filter and etc are creating issues. One shop had a tech whop was installing the IMSB using an impact wrench to save time! All we can do is alert the owners of these things so they can ensure that they are not falling prey to someone who treats the IMSR like a brake job and just goes through the motions playing the part, only to botch the install and compromise our product. LN has employed a code of conduct for all Preferred Installers to try and reduce these issues by giving the shops something to lose if they do not do whats best for the customer and the technology. I oversee the IMS Solution Certified Installers personally and constantly challenge each of them to do the right thing, even when no one is looking. I've been known to pull a Certification with one bad judgement call being made by a Certified Installer. They are all given a single chance, they hold our entire reputation in their hands. I take this stuff seriously, because I did it first, and we created it… The pride means more than the profit.

The bottom line here is folks need to research the installer before moving forward. While I respect Flat's dedication, I also feel there is a bit of self motivation involved. Solution installers are few and far between. Most people don't have the time or money to flatbed their car to one of these locations. I for example, went with a shop that is used by rich lawyers. Why? You can guess why.

Yes, and quiz them on what their procedure consists of. There are many ways to carry out the IMSR. If it was all about self motivation, and if we wanted all the work we never would have allowed the IMS Solution to be distributed. In that case we would have simply retained the technology and not allowed it to be installed outside our facility. We took the time to deal with the Patent process primarily for this reason. If a shop doesn't carry out a proper install WE have to deal with it, and it gets really old, really fast. Trust that this is the only "self motivation" that I have with these posts. Yes, and we have no intention to put one on every corner. Doing that would defeat the purpose of the program and we'd still have issues to deal with, that we don't have today. IMS Solution Certified Installers begin their quest by simply attending my WTI class and then taking the initiative to attend the "102" version of that class here at my facility, which is hands on. If someone impresses me in the way they hold a wrench, the questions they ask and if I feel good about them, we'll extend an invitation to the program to them at the end of the class. Shipping is easy, in fact its the simplest part of the process here and I have one employee who only handles brokering of cars and shipping. I just finished one of my hands on classes last week. In that class we had 20 attendees and invited 4 more potential Certified Installers to the program (2 USA and 2 Canada). Now the evaluations of these shops begin, and that includes an onsite visit as we evaluate their performances while carrying out an IMSR procedure. They then have a written test that is very difficult to pass. Ultimately one installer per state is all we are shooting for, but what matters most is sniffing out the best shop in that state to Certify and ensuring that they stay that way. We can't do it all, and if we did, it wouldn't be special enough to motivate me. Choose the guy with the most beat up hands.... That tells you that he does less with a computer and more with wrenches and is more of a mechanic than a technician. That matters most.

Is this infomercial still running?

I have the single row pro retrofit, the "faultless" tool and the classic tool kit. I will be doing mine this weekend. That tiny retainer clip scares me! I will be back with a full report next week! M96 in a 2002 Carrera

Quotes source post: 11662164

The "tiny retainer" is the same wire lock size and positioning as a factory Porsche dual row IMSB. These are the units that will break most pullers when extracting, if you try to remove the Single Row Pro after its in place you'll see that the wire lock does an amazing job at retaining the bearing. The wire lock has to break or shear during extraction to allow the bearing to be extracted. The "anodized black part" that you referenced in your message is used only to install the IMS Solution bushing, they are not used with the Single Row pro. Remember, the Faultless Tool extracts and installs all the different IMSBs as a universal tool. Please read the instructions thoroughly.

Quotes source post: 11662164

How did it go? I'm curious as I haven't seen any DIY Faultless tool use/Single Row Pro use yet.

Jake probably doesn't want this known but he is a great guy! I actually got a call from him personally when I asked for some tech support! After Jake's few tips, I had a "faultless" installation. The key is to make sure you have perfect alignment of the tool and the bore, push the bearing and clip into the tool about 3/16 so that the clip is past the taper before you start and use lots of light lube. That dual row bearing and the related hardware L&N supplies makes the stock stuff look really insufficient. The wire clip retains the bearing extremely well, too. I'm very happy to have made the investment I enjoy working on my own cars and have been wrenching on them for over 40 years. Even though the IMSB kit and tools are not recommended as DIY, if you have the experience and resources this is a straightforward procedure. I will be posting my experience with some pics as soon as I get some time.

He is a great guy. To simplify the engine qualification process for DIY'ers here's what I did before my install and I'm certainly no pro. 1. verify engine overall health/performance. Oil analysis is a good idea but not mandatory. 2. verify no debris in filter or drained oil. 3. verify no debris in pan. 4. verify no debris / problems during disassembly / extraction / install. If you just do the simple above steps, your engine has been qualified the simple DIY way.

Glad it was all faultless after you learned the tricks in our phone chat. Like I said, don't be ruining my reputation!! I am much better with machines than with people, you must have caught me on a good day, and I must have taken all my meds. :-)