Factory short block

Just out of curiousity while at the dealership, I asked the parts guy if factory M96 short blocks were still available. The answer was yes for just over $10k with a $4k core deposit and could be available in 4-6 weeks. Then I asked if it came with the newer, larger IMS bearing that requires case machining to retrofit. He did not have an answer for the IMS question. I know that a factory short block doesn�t solve the lokasil bore scoring issue but the prospect of a factory assembled short block would be tempting for the price if IMS retrofit was not required. The time savings alone has significant value. I would not, however want to buy one and replace the IMS bearing although I might take a chance on the lokasil bores if I had control of the maintenance the engine would receive going forward from new. Does anyone know what IMS bearing these factory engines come with? Has anyone here purchased one?

I have no hard evidence, but understand that they are the latest generation M96, meaning, large non-replaceable bearing.

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All the new short blocks come with the 6305 IMS bearing. I'm surprised they still can even offer the short block program with all the supply chain problems and parts shortages.

This is good news and a good option for some folks. Given that the 996 is part of Porsche's classic program I'm not that surprised that short blocks are available, unlike previously mentioned. The lead time is a positive surprise though! If parts are still available for older models then why not the 996.

I put one in my car over the summer. They had it delivered within a week. Runs great so far and buys me time to rebuild the 4.0 at a later date when time and funds allow. And yes, latest IMS bearing. Basically it had all the latest 997 improvements that Porsche had made to the M96 engine as far as I am aware.

This sounds like a viable option for a stock application such as a daily driver. Add the price of a cylinder head refresh and some ancillaries and a DIY owner could have a “new” engine for well under $15k. At least something that could survive the next 100k miles without too much worry…

Yeah give or take it is around there. I am a bit over but I had some optional things done. I had the heads decked and checked out, all new seals and gaskets, plugs, new oil cooler, coolant expansion tank, etc. which are all normal items you need to do. I had a gt3 TB and ipd plenum transferred over, same with things like ARP headbolts, low temp thermostat, deep sump, spin on filter, etc. I optioned for a new lightweight flywheel and clutch, added UAOS and a numeric shifter with cables while everything was out. Serviced the transmission fluid and coolant. Then the labor for all that was not too bad. Not quite the 4.0 but not terribly far off. Rebuilding that was significantly more in just labor than the new factory short block and it was up and running in a couple months and that is with my mechanic squeezing me in between going to Monterey Car Week to prep and tend to the racecar collection he services. And there is a 2 year unlimited mile warranty on the short block. Some day I might try my hand at rebuilding the 4.0 and save the massive amounts of labor but the 3.6 is doing me well for now. Getting ready to do the first oil change and put on the RSS harmonic balancer/underdrive pulley.

Does anyone know if the factory short block uses new or remanufactured parts? I would assume remanufactured because of the core requirement, but how would that explain the cylinder surface conditioning? Are you getting new cases? Are the crank and rods rebuilt or new? If new, this would add a great deal of value here…..

I wish they have a similar program for a 997 short block, Or, do they?

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Mine was all brand new, It has a unique part number on the block casting and there is no way they could have a reman that clean. I think they require the core as good faith that you are replacing one with another and not just hoarding these to resell. I also assume they had enough issues with them that they are still offering these from the factory for competitive prices and I view it as a similar situation to offering the 10 year warranty on 991.1 gt3 engines. Might even have something to do with the class action lawsuit or to prevent or deter further litigation. In any case, it is definitely brand new. They didn�t seem to care what state the old engine was in as if they wanted to reuse anything.

A couple of photos of the factory engine. In early stages of the replacement.

That looks beautiful! It’s an interesting proposition: Brand new factory assembled components with timely availability No special tools, expensive instructional videos or tricky assembly procedures required Two year warranty Cost effective solution However….. Improved but non-replaceable IMS bearing Lokasil bores No “free” added displacement available If Porsche would address the cylinder process this would be a home run in my opinion

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I agree, but life is seldom if ever perfect.

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Remember, we're talking SHORTblock here, not longblock. You will need special tools when working with the camshafts and timing the engine. I also recommend the "expensive instructional videos" too.

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Cam tools, yes, but a vastly simplified procedure vs the air cooled six. No main or rod bearing clearance or endplay checks, or torques. No ring filing. No piston circlip insertion tool or procedure. It seems most of the voodoo lies within the bottom end of these engines. I have no doubt the videos are a fine product and worth every penny if you need them. If you don�t then it�s over $600 that could be spent elsewhere.

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Yes sir, but Ferry Porsche and Ferdinand Piech have come close! 😊

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What experience do you have building these engines that makes you knowledgable enough to compare the M96 to classic aircooled flat 6 engines? Please explain. And, please tell us what "simplified procedure" you're referring to. This is my criticism when going with the short block route. That is, you're basically putting the same engine that is subject to bore scoring back in the car. The same problem that got you there in the first place. When I bought my first Porsche 996 years ago, my window regulator went bad. Everyone told me to NOT purchase a used or aftermarket part because they were well known to failure. The genuine Porsche part cost hundreds of dollar more and I thought it was ridiculous to spend that kind of money when alternatives could be purchased for a fraction of the OEM part. I cut corners and purchased the aftermarket part for under a $100. Took a whole day to install the part. The aftermarket regulator lasted about 2 months and it broke. Lesson learned. Same thing goes for other parts like the coolant expansion tank. Porsche has a proven cylinder technology in the 996 Mezger Turbo and GT models that doesn't suffer from bore scoring; that is, Nikasil plated cylinders. There are other contributors to the problem that are solved when going with companies like Flat 6 Innovations. But that's being debated on another thread.

I'm just going to post this every time someone questions the M96 reliability: Are you going to have various issues if the original owner followed these guidelines? You bet! It's been ~20 years and unfortunately you have no control over what already happened. Are there people that did not follow these guidelines and changed the oil much more often and have upwards of 500k street miles (911user) on their original motor or many track miles/hours (GC996) with zero motor issues and no signs of scoring? Yes sir! I'm not saying that the original lokasil bores are as good as nikasil (they're not) ones but if you can reset the clock and not make the mistakes the original owner or two made then a new factory short block is a very good option that can clearly go the distance, especially for those that love the car but are not in a position to spend ~40k to fix the motor.

What experience do you have building these engines that makes you knowledgable enough to compare the M96 to classic aircooled flat 6 engines? Please explain. I have no experience building an M96. That�s why I�m asking questions and reading this forum. I have a lot of experience building other engines including air cooled 911 sixes. I find it amusing that some people consider working on the M96 a black art and the techniques a closely guarded secret known only by the anointed few, or those who buy DVD box sets. And, please tell us what "simplified procedure" you're referring to. The M96 cam timing is indexed by the manufacturer by slots in the camshafts. Set TDC with a pin. Line up the cam slots with the tool. Tighten the cam sprocket bolts. Air cooled cam timing is done with a dial indicator by measuring number one intake valve opening. The cam sprockets are indexed by inserting a pin then tightening the cam sprocket nut. Things move when the nut is torqued. Adjustment is infinite. There are different timing settings depending on how you want the engine to run. It�s tricky to get right. Think of it this way: M96 is digital. Air cooled is analog. This is my criticism when going with the short block route. That is, you're basically putting the same engine that is subject to bore scoring back in the car. The same problem that got you there in the first place. That�s the issue, isn�t it? Although many will say bore scoring is the result of poor oils, lack of maintenance, cold weather operating environments, bad fuel injectors and other factors. It seems many 996 owners have gotten as much as 200k miles out of their lokasil bores with proper maintenance. Porsche has a proven cylinder technology in the 996 Mezger Turbo and GT models that doesn't suffer from bore scoring; that is, Nikasil plated cylinders. There are other contributors to the problem that are solved when going with companies like Flat 6 Innovations. But that's being debated on another thread. Yeah, I wish Porsche would�ve used Nikasil bores on the M96 like they did on my 996 Turbo and my �88 3.2 Carrera. But then used 996�s wouldn�t be cheaply available on the used market would they?

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I have a dealership in the family which grants me access to Manheim Auctions, which as you may know, is the largest wholesale auction company and by far, used by dealerships more than any other source. Some here on Rennlist will use BringATrailer, and Hagerty auction data to justify the value of the M9X based Porsche, but from viewing Manheim, it's a sad day for 986 Boxster owners and the 987 is not very far behind. Lots of people are dumping these cars on the market now that things are getting much better since the Pandemic. The 996 is still doing ok, but there are quite of few being dumped on the auctions as people trade-in these cars for something newer. As I'm typing this, there are about 80 Porsche 996 cars that have been sent to auction by the dealerships. Last year this time there was virtually nothing which caused a spike in prices. However, now that supply is increasing, then prices should drop. As a side note, among the 80 Porsche 996 cars, there are quite a number for under $20,000 as a direct sale. (i.e. if you didn't want to gamble and try to win at bidding)

Used car prices as a component of CPI. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUSR0000SETA02 But I am still long term bullish in the 996. Alot of car for a good price.

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Cool! If you expand that to a two-year window (see attached), then what I was saying in regards to value is correct. Since Sep 2022, it has been a downward slide. I'm afraid, for the 986 Boxster, it's a cliff. haha If Porsche can get new 911 production levels back up, then the value will be better for the average buyer wanting to purchase a M9X 911.

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I hear you. The biggest collapse will come from over priced 992 and 991s. If you had to set up a trade it would be to go long a basket of 996s and short a basket of 992s and 991s. Disclaimer: Past performance is not indicative of future returns. This information is provided for illustrative purposes only. Seek professional advice when speculating on car prices. Make sure to scope the bores before taking on any long positions. 😎

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I appreciate your honesty on that note. I'm afraid timing these engines is not that "simple" as you just explained it and we haven't even gotten into the differences between the 5-chain vs. 3-chain M96 yet. The M96 timing procedure can be "tricky" as well based on what I've witnessed over the years. I don't think an aircooled engine has the market cornered. Now this is where you confused me. You clearly stated you've NEVER built an M96 engine, but yet you come on this thread trying "teach" us the differences between the M96 engine and older aircooled flat 6 engines. You seem to brush off the M96 timing procedure as something that could be done by a 5th grader while also implying that Jake Raby's M9X engine assembly educational series is basically a waste of money that could be spent elsewhere and at the same time you're asking for information about the LN/Flat 6 Innovations engine program? Sounds to me you're attempting to throw the baby out with the bath water. If you know so much about these engines that you've never built then you really don't need our advice. We just need to know your real intentions, Bill.

I got a new short block when doing my build, and we bored out to 3.8 from 3.4. Mind you, I purchased my block in Jan 2020 right before all the nonsense started, but I'm glad I did it. Price is basically what I paid 3 years ago. -Matt

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I disagree with most of your comments. A novice mechanic that can read a Bentley book and spend an hour searching the internet can time a 5 chain. Its $150 worth of special tool and being careful....thats it. There is no reason to buy $700 worth of videos. Putting heads on a short block is also infinately easier then building an entire m96 engine and yes, before u ask, i have been intimate with the 5 chain motor.

10k for a factory built motor seems like a mega value compared to a lot of the options being discussed in this forum. A no brainer in my book.

^^^I too have "timed" a 5 chain motor (and I'm certainly no master mechanic...) I just had to figure out that the Chinese $150 timing tool I bought was assembled backwards, and I had to fix it before it worked...In any case, it's not that difficult if you can read and follow directions. All this being said, there is a ton covered in the FSI videos beyond timing the engine so Im not sure what the knock on those is about... $600 when building a $15k engine is not a lot to pay for knowledge/peace of mind, whether it's essential to time the motor is debatable I suppose...

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Could those people "time the engine" or "correctly time the engine"? What would their cam deviations be? Would they specifically be instructed to identify where the proper components are to be installed on bank 1 and bank 2? Would they be shown how to inspect the cam adjusters for proper operation prior to installation? Too many people follow manuals and install the wrong components on the wrong bank, or they completely leave out engine rotation between timing banks 1 and 2 because the manuals leave out this process. When Nick at Bentley was writing this section, it was Mr. Raby that assisted him with deciphering the faults that lie in the factory manual, that would have easily been included in the Bentley manual had they not been working together on a separate project at the same time that Nick was finishing the 996 Bentley manual. Hearing the stories about the way these things come to pass are very enlightening. The same goes for the special tools that were offered early on, that ensured that valve timing would always be incorrect. The number of people I have assisted at LN who have built these engines, and performed repairs with the video series has been impressive. I never receive a tech support ticket from a guy that has used the videos and made a mistake, but I receive the complaints from guys following manuals all the time. Most of these are related to valve timing and piston installation procedures that are botched. I think the big difference is being able to watch the work being done, hitting pause when necessary, and then moving on to the next step is the big difference. Following a manual isn't that easy for some people, and quite honestly every manual I have studied leaves some level of critical information out/ not clarified.

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It's a free country. More power to you. That fine, if you prefer to purchase a Bently manual at $219,95 and comb the internet, then more power to you. That's your opinion. You're assuming everyone learns the same way and brings the same prerequisite knowledge to a task, but that's not what learner research has found and why so many people need alternate forms of instruction - e.g. step-by-step visual demonstrations, hands-on tasks, etc. Look up multisensory instruction and constructionism learning theories. BTW: You don't have to pay $700. If you're smart you'll wait for sales. LN Engineering ran a 50% off sale of the DVD series back at Black Friday. Again, your opinion. Maybe I read too many threads on all the forums, but it seems that aside from inserting the dreaded #6 piston circlip, that timing the engine is one of the areas that people struggle with. For example, on Amazon Prime, you have the option to purchase the individual Stages unlike the DVD series that is sold a complete package. People have ordered just the timing Stage more than any other stage of assembly. Please don't show me a video of you making love to machinery. ​​​​​​​

Edit; directed to the post above b3, i wasnt typing fast enough. And still none if what u have stated is all that difficult or not well documented. We get it there is a god if the m96 motor.....still doesnt mean u have to pray to it. I am here to say that its not voodoo or some special magical process. Its just a process thats well documented outside of the videos. If it makes an average mechanic feel better by all means buy the video.... if u r building the full engine then yes absolutely buy the video.

B3..... dont worry, i am old enough to know not to bring my phone(camera) in certain places . And yes, there r people that just dont have the apptitude to go that far into a motor and in that case a man should know their limits.

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The process is special. In fact, the process is exactly what I have noted that makes the difference in the cam timing deviations that repairers and builders are able to net. Simply bolting things together while using a couple of special tools doesn't;t net cam timing deviations that are as close as they could potentially be. In my experience while learning about these engines I can say that this was especially true on the 5 chain derivative. To me the 5 chain is much harder to properly time than the 3 chain. Oh, and none of those manuals that I have read yet will show the repairer how to check the timing across the entire engine, watching the valve timing events as all 6 cylinders progress through their cycles. If this one item was added all the mistakes that I have been helping guys with who followed the manuals would have been brought to the surface. The video shows this exactly, and that one thing alone helps the repairer know for certain that the procedure was done right before the engine goes back into the car. Trying to walk someone through doing this one thing using text in a manual would be difficult, but seeing it in the video and pausing between cylinders makes it so simple that it cannot be botched. Pulling the engine back out (or fighting with it in the car) after a botched cam timing procedure is pure punishment. The last pro that made this mistake lost 4 days of labor, destroyed 4 valves and ate 2 pistons. That was just last week. Gods are different than people who have spent their lives learning their craft at the next level. Seeing someone with this level of knowledge that is willing to create something like this video (at any cost) is rare. I successfully built an M9X with this video and zero assistance, as well as zero prior experience. I asked him for help once, and he basically told me to go to Hell and figure it out on my own- that's what the video was for.

Here's one example that Jake Raby made free to the public that is not clearly covered in the workshop manuals. Incorrectly installing this bearing sleeve will have serious implications, even engine death. Apparently, this is a common mistake among engine builders that are new to the M9X engine. You Tube

Again follow the well documented instructions (process) that exist outside of the video and u will have a well timed engine...or u can spend the money to validate your work and buy the video. Its a personal decision and each person should evaluate there skill level and decide. Im just trying to dispell the myth that its overly difficult or some magical process. Every kind of motor timing proceedure is different, not special. Follow the instructions and it will be correct. In this case they r well documented in several places. Also, im 100% sure u have never seen a "ticket" from the hundreds if not thousands of people that have timed this motor correctly. If u do it wrong u didnt follow the process and your "pro" found that out.

Feel like this has to be the cheapest option next to buying a used engine and checking to see if it's about to blow up. If you can wrench yourself it's even cheaper, even if you have to buy specialty tools to do so.

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I agree as long as u understand the limitations and understand your issues and how to midigate them.

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This Pro followed the factory 5 chain manual procedure. He is a Gold Level Porsche factory trained technician as well. No one thinks this work is special, or even magical until they make a mistake that costs them about 10K bucks. Then they still won't admit that it is special, or magical, but they certainly know that it is. Now this "pro" has to buy the whole vehicle from the owner, then he gets to repair it.

And i followed the Bentley and a few posts in Rennlist the first time i have ever worked in a m96 and had sucsess. So there is another data point. I would assume the pro has followed that manual before and has had success in timing an engine? If thats true it would stand to reason that there was another root cause to the failure. In that case i would bet that more specific checks and balances spelled out in the vid may haved helped. If u were starting out with a factory short block then a issue with the bottom end assembly is greatly reduced if not eliminated. (Trust but verify) If the root cause was the procedure he followed it doesnt say much for the pro, his special training or the manual he followed.

@b3freak Were you paid to work on the FSI assembly video ? Do you receive any royalties on sale ?

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Matt, pretty cool. Why the new block, who bored it out for you and did you get nickies?

Cam timing: always difficult, lot of skills involved, some black magic needed, always special tools, and different from one model to the next. Cam timing air cooled vs M96/97: Air cool cam timing is done at TDC compression while M96/7 is done at TDC overlap. Once you get that, some things become clear. I earned my stripes doing cam timing on Ferrari engines where you have to find TDC using a dial indicator, compensate for the valve lash on the car, and cam marks are almost always wildly off. Even then, getting to the M96 3 chain engines, I still have to learn from a couple of mistakes and move on. It is important to recognize when you have made a mistake and then backtrack to find it before you destroy the engine. But, once you have gone through a 5-chain and a 3-chain engine, it really is not that mysterious.

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All you need to know has been public knowledge in my RL bio for years.

My take…when I work on a project,there is no such thing as to much information.That being said I have Mr Raby’s dvd’s and workbook.Well worth it to me.A lot of good tips.Also printed factory workshop manual,Bentley manual.Also have :Ashai,Out n space,Log ray,Carlv,Coopduc, Yaz….rebuilds bookmarked ,if I left anyone out it’s not intentional.Everyone has there own lane,and I respect that.Take a deep breath people……..breathe….

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

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Ok� About b3freak Biography I've owned several Porsches. I was hired by TKG as lead producer/director for the only educational video series for assembling a M9X Porsche engine with Jake Raby. Well - that makes a lot of sense.

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Does that work? I thought the cylinders were already too thin and warp causing ovalization? Also how do you hone lokasil?

Has anyone here purchased one?[/QUOTE] hey guys, I recently purchased a 2002 C4S and in going through the records found an �engine out� service back in 2005 at approximately 21000 miles. Sent an email to a service adviser at the dealership where it was performed and found out they did the short block replacement at that time due to a crack in cylinder wall 6. That service used an �05 short block with whatever IMS would have been available at the time. The car now has 87000 miles on it and is going strong. As a long time multiple 911 owner I did have a small concern over the reliability of this car and contemplated an engine replacement if something was to go wrong. Having had this experience with a short block replacement id say it�s definitely worth the cost and something I wouldn�t hesitate to have done if it was an option.

Is it true that the IMSB used in the short block cannot be removed and replaced with another?

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not without splitting the case.

I have come to the conclusion after looking at M96 rebuild options, factory short block swaps, M96 used engine swaps and other car company engine swaps that we are all kidding ourselves regarding cost. Some options may have less of a front end cost but it will still cost you along the way. Other options have large front end costs with less costs along the way. But they all end up costing $20-40k depending on how far you go with enhancements. Seems that the only way to truly save money is to DIY the project. If you have the skills to do it right the first time, you can save substantial money. But if you are a DIY guy, pretty good chance you are a tinkerer, so you will most likely spend more money than you planned with further enhancements in the future. For those that don't have the skill, you gotta make sure you understand the pluses and minuses of each option thats available and the potential future costs and then pick the best package for long in the future if you are planning on keeping the car. My engine is still in great shape, but I am planning a rebuild over the next couple of years. But I will make sure that when I spend the money on the engine, that I get improved performance, track durability, and engine longevity in prep for the next 20-30 years. I want to make sure all the M96 issues are addressed and the engine is bullet proof. No question, there are alot of great options available, including the factory short block program. But there are trade-offs as well. Everything costs money. Comes down to what the trade-offs are worth to you.

All good points as always @GC996 The only thing I would change is trade-offs for expectations. If you're making trade-offs you didn't choose the right engine for your application. You have been a perfect example of just how important maintenance in on these cars and in a very unique position to have owned it essentially since new, if I recall correctly. The rest of us purchased the 996 many years later and many owners later and inherited any potential shortcomings of maintenance - or just lack there of. You can't undo what has been done and catching up on maintenance can be done only to an extent. So what are your honest expectations and how will you use the car? Answer that and build the engine accordingly. I've mentioned this before, and this is my personal view, but do I really NEED a 4.0L or even a 3.8L? For the type of driving I do and plan on doing the answer is no. For pure vanity reasons a 4.0L in a 40AE sounds cool but that's about it. I guess at the end of the day nobody really needs a 996 either so choose accordingly. All the rebuild options discussed over time are valid in my view. One thing you can't do is compare a motor that has had issues that you inherited some 15-20 years later due to ****ty maintenance to a fresh motor that you now have all the control in the world over in terms of maintenance. Go ahead and take that freshly rebuilt motor with nickies, 4.0L sleeves and whatever else was done to it and treat it the same way your old stock motor was treated by the first few owners and see what happens. There is a reason why Raby is so **** about maintenance and gives you a schedule with the new motor that you need to follow.

Pete, Completely agree. There is alot of bellyaching on RL about the durability of the M96. I have found it to be extremely durable. It's never broken down on the street or track over 21 years. But I service it and keep the parts fresh. Same can be said for anyone that gets a factory short block. A big piece of the puzzle is just changing your oil a couple of times a year, whether you want to or not. To your point, very few folks need more power in their 996. It's has plenty for the street. But if you want more, you can have it pretty easily with a rebuild. Yep, there is a lid for every pot.

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Now that�s freakin� priceless 😂

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This is true, I had the grease seal removed from mine before the engine was installed. That is supposed to further reduce the likelihood of a failure. To be honest I have more concern with the potential for bore scoring over the updated IMS bearing. Even that should be way down the road. If you�re in a bind I don�t see how you could go wrong. It is factory fresh, readily available and cheaper than a competent rebuild. Your VIN even goes in the Porsche database so there is a record of it and when it was done. Is it a built 4.0, no but then you have to put time and money into the equation. I still plan to rebuild the 4.0 with the Nickies but I am in no rush to do so and get to enjoy the car. I suspect if I do ever get the 4.0 done this 3.6 will still be going strong and who knows, maybe I�ll get a different roller for the 4.0?

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Thank you. Glad you think so, but honestly, it's only $599.95 from LN, Pelican Parts, or Amazon Prime.

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Do you know how I can report spam ?

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Do you really think I care? You can easily just put me on the ignore list James!

@b3freak See what happens when we stop discussing the pros/cons of Waffle House!

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Exactly, I could use a trip there today. Good food and great conversations minus teeth!

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I�ll take that as a no. Too bad, sheisters spamming the forums is an all too common occurrence these days. Imagine someone trying to sell you a $600 dvd in a thread on stock replacement short blocks� preposterous. Oh wait�.

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Just like you peddling your last M96 engine and brake calipers on a Facebook group that I started. I never deleted it from the group in spite of the many people you've insulted over the years on this forum nor have I ever jumped on any of your threads and called you an idiot for putting a Chevy engine in a Porsche 911. Because I'm not little ***** like you. And for your information, It’s not considered spam when you do work for the forum sponsor that also sells the series. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! I really think you need to go to your garage and get very drunk in order to kill the bug that has crawled up your ***.

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So how are you not a paying sponsor and wouldn�t that be shilling or at the very minimum a conflict of interest? Man this forum is weird.

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1. If I wasn’t allowed to post my stuff for sale there, apologies - I didn’t know. Certainly would not have had any hard feelings if you removed had I broken a rule. 2. If you think I’m an idiot… for anything. I’m heartbroken. 3. Seems pretty spammy to me. 4. Thanks for the content to add to my sig !

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would love to see that data on the current 996 cars on the market for them.

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I know I can share this without any issue with them. This shows how many are being auctioned. About 1905. This of course changes daily. This is the M9X generation: About 152 on the auction block

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I like the idea of having 2 M96 engines. Drive one now and build the other the way you want it. Been toying with the idea of having two gear boxes as well with different ratios for various tracks. Easy to get carried away with the 996. Just a freakin fun car.

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seems like a lot of cars.. wish i knew what and where.. like actually vehicle specs and stuff

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Right now, the average wholesale range for a Mk2 996 is between 18K - 22K. Retail is about 26K-35K. This is all dependent on many factors such as type (e.g. C2 vs C4S), and miles. I would gladly print out the auction sales data, but I can't post it publicly on this forum. Personally, I think it's wiser to purchase direct from an owner and get an inspection. Something that's not available through wholesale auctions.

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interesting that they can't inspect them at the auction.. i would think they would have something

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I think you meant "shill bidding" which only applies to auctions. I don't believe there are any conflicts of interest since my personal account predates my work with Flat 6 and LN. I also alerted IB when I became affiliated with Jake Raby and the Knowledge Gruppe several years ago. There was a time when I would post announcements on the Flat 6 Innovations account, but now that F6I and LN have merged, that account is no longer active. The LN accounts are used exclusively for Charles Navarro and his team. But you bring something to light when you made this comment. There was a time when I came here to learn, try to help people with the knowledge I gained, and yes... laugh too and that was usually at each other. Lots of fun and camaraderie. The more I read these comments like yours and James', the more I think those days are done since anything I say on or off the topic is weighed against my official role with these two fine companies. Meetings with LN and Flat 6 are on the horizon and I'm looking forward to what's in store. Peace! and, for goodness sakes, enjoy those cars!

Quotes source post: 18596839

Oh yes, you can definitely inspect any car onsite, but most dealers are bidding remotely and taking the risk. I just finished reading their terms, definitely can't share anything on their site. I wish I could, it's fun to watch and lots of crazy deals. It seems many dealerships don't want to deal with the hassle of selling a 20+ year old Porsche and so if they get traded, they'll auction them off to the highest bidder. The brand dealerships told me it was because of the financing challenges. Oh well.

Quotes source posts: 18596758, 18596839

You have to have a Dealer/Wholesale Licence to attend these Auctions. I used to have a Wholesale Licence about 20 years ago and bought many cars at through them... Its a good busseness to be in if you know cars well, but you need a lot of help in just moving cars around...can't do it by yourself.. You can inspect cars before the Auction on the day of the Auction and even drive them around on the back parking lot, but no extensive road tests or lifting them up... The cars are "Graded" and there is about 5 lanes of Auctions going at the same time with different "Grades" of cars going through each lane...very fast and hectic..

Quotes source post: 18596906

sounds fun and interesting..

Quotes source post: 18596937

It is.. If you know someone with a Licence you should go with them to see the Auctions...you'll see some of the inner workings of the car busseness.. Most people think Dealerships rape people on Trade-ins....truth is they would love to make $500 on a Trade-in of an old car the next week at the Auction.. they will usually take a $200 quick flip on the day of Trade-in instead of waiting a week for the Auction to hope for $500 ( because they may even loose a hundred $$) Because if they decide to keep the Trade-in they have to spend money on a Detail, Paint correction, dent repair, new tires, new brakes, 60K mile service, fix oi leaks, any thing else , ect then "hope" to make at least $1K on the Reatil Sale in the next month or two...if a car sits on the lot more than 90 days it means they paid too much for it on Trade-in..

Buying a 996 at auction is a crapshoot at best.

Quotes source post: 18597013

It is ,,, but like anything , the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward ( or failure)...

Banks are tightening Auto Loan standards from a low. We will see if they tighten further. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/STDSAUTO More stats. https://www.bankrate.com/loans/auto-loans/auto-loan-debt-statistics/

Does anyone know where any dealers are selling a996.1 block

Quotes source post: 18596876

Dude C�mon. I�ve never seen in post in which you have been helpful without pushing a product in the 3 years I�ve been here so spare me, I can specifically point to your contribution in my build thread as an example. Really believe that at some point you have to look around and really have a moment of introspect instead of blaming us �new� forum members of being trolls.

Quotes source post: 18597361

When and where have I called you a troll? Actually, I believe it was YOU that called me a troll, not the other way around. Remember the PM I sent you? And three years is far from "new"... maybe three months or even three weeks, but three years??? Now, I've been on Rennlist for almost 8 years. Go through all my public comments in the last 3 years and give me the percentage of how many times I've "pushed a product" vs helping someone. I would love to know. Heck, I won't deny that have made some announcements about TKG/Rennvision webinars/live events as well as special sales on the M9X on occasion, but it's definitely the minority of the posts. I also won't deny that I've offered a differing opinion on a part or process that could be a mistake. For example, someone wanting to install a non-OEM coolant expansion tank which are well-known to leak. I'll tell them they're making a huge mistake and should stick with the Genuine OEM Porsche part. I even did a video on it for free. I didn't make a dime. In fact, it cost me money. You also forget I founded Rennvision along with Jake Raby. For the first 2-3 years I wasn't making anything for all the DiY content that I produced during the pandemic. Yes, it is now monetized and I make about .000000000000001 cent on the dollar. WOOT WOOT! I also started a Facebook group for 996 DiYrs and we have about 5,000 members currently. Read through the posts and you'll find I don't start threads nor have I pushed products, but I spend a butt load of time deleting Chinese merch ads. Also, James the Zbomb sold his engine on my group if you missed that part. But I've helped countless people with problems on that group as well as 6SpeedOnline and RennTech. But over the last year, I've had to pull back because my spare time has become more limited. So there you go. I've been more introspective that you realize. Have a nice night!

Quotes source post: 18597397

Seems as if I struck a nerve and it�s 0845am Saturday morning where I am.

Quotes source post: 18597419

Of course you did, B3 has been one of the most helpfull people on this forum. He has not been as active in the last couple of years, but there was a time when he was probably the most active and helpfull person on this forum...

Quotes source post: 18597419

It�s just annoying having to read the inane posts from little Rusty Truck Engine boy whenever FSI or Jake Raby is mentioned. It�s made even worse when his band of little rusty trombone players join in.

Quotes source posts: 18597466, 18597464

Ah I was waiting for you to say something. Welcome. That�s why I was very specific in the timeline I provided. You�re not going to change my opinion.

Jumping somewhat back on topic in regard to factory short blocks. Who would be interested in buying one that Jake has disassembled, measured, blueprinted and reassembled and has completed into a full long block? No, the cylinders would not be fitted with Nickies, nor would any other updates be made to the short block portion. It would see FSI prepped heads and etc to make it into a long block. This would be a scenario that allows Jake to measure what the factory is doing today in regard to bearing clearances, cylinder/ piston running clearance, cylinder surface finishes and other things as an overall review of the current short block. He wants to include these factory specs in his book, so buying and disassembling a short block is the best way to acquire these. We would have no use for the short block following this, so completing it to a long block with some balancing would be a good avenue. The last factory engine that he disassembled to measure was in 2011, so things need to be brought up to date for comparisons in the specifications of the book. This would just be done one time, and the engine would not be considered an FSI engine, just something that had been used to gather information. If interested start a ticket at flat6innovations.com

Quotes source post: 18596906

The original site is about an hour from my house. It is almost entirely surrounded by small car dealerships. Interesting area to visit for someone in the market for a later model car.

Quotes source post: 18597419

Interrupting you watching Looney Tunes while eating a big bowl of Fruity Pebbles?

Quotes source post: 18597736

Nah not this morning. I manage and operate drone sites via ships� we�re kinda busy.

Quotes source posts: 18597361, 18597464, 18597474, 18597361

Joel, your "opinion" is in error. I encourage you to take my challenge. Provide me the percentage of comments of not being helpful vs being helpful in the last 3 years. In your very own thread called "Chunks slow build..." I commented twice. Here are the two posts: Please explain to me how those are NOT helpful. Maybe being "helpful" has different meaning to you? My memory does serve me well...

We’re here on RL ‘cuz our 996 whips are very important to us. You all realize if we showed up at a track or car event, we’d have a fantastic time and all this thin skin stuff would be forgotten and humor would generally win out over bile. I remember times when civic virtue and forbearance were not plowed under by new social customs the interweb fosters. Compromise and respect allowed Tip and Ronny to get stuff done back-in-the-day. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. I do declare that hilarious Foghorn clip takes me back to long-ago Saturdays right after chores and before sports stuff. And my son says referring to a person, place, thing or event from the ‘80s makes me an “old”. Peace!

Quotes source post: 18597873

Absolutely! Saturday mornings we'd get up early and watch all the cartoons while eating breakfast. These were the days when your TV would only pick up maybe 3-4 network channels with the rotor driven antenna on the roof. It was always my job to "tune in" the channel with the rotor controller dial until there was a clean image. Laughter was always good medicine and watching those crazy Looney Tunes episodes was a great experience as a kid in the 70s and 80s. My dad even loved to watch them before he headed to work on Saturdays. Foghorn leghorn tormenting that ol' dog was his favorite. Conversations were always fun and filled with laughter around the table in those days. There was no internet or cell phone distractions... with the exception of the occasional phone call during dinner time that we weren't allowed to answer. Our only rotary phone was located in the kitchen and in fact had to be rented from the phone company. It had a 30 foot curly cord so that you could walk in the dining room and have a secret conversation with your friends without the parents knowing it. Long distance calls were expensive back in the day and my father made sure we only called within the "free" area codes. Sucked when some of my friends lived in the next county over that was considered long distance. After cartoons ended at noon, my parents insisted I go play outside or go play with my friends. They didn't let me stay cooped up in the house gaming or scrolling through social media like so many of the kids today. We played football, basketball, baseball, etc. During the winters we go exploring in the woods or sledding when it snowed. Always something to do outside. As we got older, we all had dirtbikes and boy that was a fun time. Living in the country had so many benefits over our time in Atlanta. I'm glad we moved out of the city. Camping and fishing was so easy ... just a hike down the trail in the woods. Even if you crossed property lines everyone knew you and didn't mind one bit. It was wonderful times.

Quotes source post: 18597870

Man you really dislike my comments that much? Dude I�ve seen other posts over the years. Were you helpful in my thread? Nope, you just pointed out the obvious(Mockingly might I add but I don�t have thin skin) and repeated something that Charles already told me. Either way� You were �that guy� in my thread since you brought it up again. It�s all good though, I�m over it.

Quotes source post: 18598039

My follow up comment mentioning Charles was because you said you heard from Charles regarding where the metal in the filter came from, but I wasn't aware of his specific advice to you. I never "mocked" you or made fun of you for this decision. Instead of me saying, "STOP! Don't bore out the case to extract a good M97 bearing because the metal shavings from the extraction process could damage the engine!", I tried to get you to THINK about the decision by using a little reverse psychology, but as you said in this thread to PorscheTech3, we can't change YOUR mind. It was obvious you were moving forward with the process. Then, after a time, you experienced a filter polluted with metal. That could have taken out your engine. Well, my method of advice didn't work to get you to reconsider just leaving the M97 bearing alone, but my intentions weren't meant to be "that guy" or finger point at you if your choice failed. I was trying to help you avoid a costly mistake. The 6305 M97 bearing has very few reports of failure. Again, I would have left it alone. The risks with the Vertex boring process outweigh the benefits. The only thing I would have recommended is removing the grease seal to allow fresh oil on the bearing. What troubles me is you made a blanket accusation without anything to back it up. Others on this thread pointed out your error, but that was still not good enough. You then mischaracterize me by saying I call new members of Rennlist "trolls" which in fact, I've never done that to the best of memory. Ironically, it was actually YOU calling me a troll when I asked a simple question about the costs of Porsche dealership brake service in the off-topic thread. I provided proof and you still won't apologize. I think it's because you just want to be right in you position and admitting fault and/or apologizing is not something that comes easy for you? Maybe you just don't care for me because because of my affiliation with Flat 6 Innovations and LN Engineering, my attempts at a little humor from time to time, semantics, or maybe the way I defend myself when someone bashes my work like TTOversteer did at the beginning of this thread? Irregardless, I have failed at a lot of things in my life, but no one can accuse me for failing to try to help people with their Porsche cars and no matter how many people follow lockstep to zbomb and his band of bothers, I don't need them for relevancy.

Ok back to the program does anyone know what dealers has a short block available today

Quotes source post: 18599749

I believe it's called any dealer. They all have to be ordered and take a few weeks to be delivered to the dealer.

I did a thread on this topic a few years ago that has all the part numbers to complete the DIY shortblock..The prices have went up ofcourse but there is still a path to follow.. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...acement+engine

I realize that rebuilding with LN Nikasil bores will basically guarantee that this engine will never score. However, if one were to rebuild with an OEM shortblock and follow all of guidelines and do all of preventative maintenence type stuff wouldn't this get you to the same place at ~$15 vs $25-30k? Or, is the Lokasil M96 just destined to score no matter what?

I cant find numbers right now, but Lokasil vs Nikasil IIRC the Nickasil coating is WAY harder and tougher than the Lokasil, Its also much thicker. In the old air cooled engines I dealt with, I worked with 2 that went through 3 sets of pistons and rings before the factory jugs wore out.... We just put the new pistons in with the new rings and sent it, you didn't even touch the bores. Had similar luck with dirt bikes, we would Nik coat the RM250's and the cylinders would last all season ,, probably went through a piston and ring set every 4 events. I personally believe injectors/fueling and failing AOS are the two big contributors to the scoring, just based on experience with other engines.. YMMV

Quotes source post: 18600557

Hey, I had an RM 250 when I was in junior high. 140 lb sopping wet, all full face helmet and high point boots. That was a seriously potent combo. Holy rocket ship! Injectors because they leak and there is fuel wash? Or because they are clogged and you run lean? And What is the thinking behind AOS failure contribution?

Quotes source post: 18596313

There is a barrio in Mexico City called Tepito. Unless you have some local Mexican friends don�t go to this place alone. Anyway it resembles a Chinese market with fake purses, watches, dvds, jeans, etc, etc. Maybe they are making ilegal copies there. Anyway I haven�t been there since 2011.

Quotes source post: 18596812

my car was bought by a small dealership in Wisconsin from an auction. The car had 90k miles. What I liked about the car was the fact that it had 41 out of 42 services at porsche dealerships. I bought the car sight unseen, no inspection, but the one required by the state of Wisconsin. Today 2 plus years latter over 12,000 miles no issues. It doesn�t consumes any oil. My original purchase price was $18k, I got $500 for going to pick the car and also $250 for the oil leak. The oil leak was no aluminum crush washer. You can find some pretty good cars at auction. In my particular case my car had new brakes, bore out throttle, hr springs, konis, fabspeed exhaust and the original 408s, plus the Tech art front spoiler and the ducktail. I guess people passed on my car because the paint is not in the best condition. Perfect for me I�m all for performance. Yes 2,500 Miles 6 months oil changes. Religious schedule. Drive the car properly.

Quotes source post: 18598399

Today I made Mexican breakfast, refried beans with lard and salt pork, HEB flour tortillas, scramble eggs, over easy for my son, bacon, and pappas. Yes for the games my own bourbon blend, Miller lite IPAs and Old Chicago 7 pizza no onion add andouille sausage. Enjoy. What about the Chiefs Texas tech own Patrick Mahomes, go red raiders. Awesome pizza, wife likes thin crust , I would have preferred thicker crust.

Quotes source post: 18600471

That's not true. I had a case with LN bores that became bore scored bc of failed injectors. I bought the damaged engine from a rennlister and had it sent in to be fixed.

Quotes source post: 18603670

I believe you have streaking confused with scoring. Streaking occurs to Nikasil and is mostly a visual defect, but at times in the certain conditions the valleys of the surface finish can become contaminated by fuel and oil mixed, then the bore will basically glaze over, and lose seal. This usually only occurs at low mileage. I have seen this happen to 2 stroke motorcycle and snowmobile engines that use Nikasil, as well as Aircooled Porsche engines, and even some Ferrari engines with factory Nikasil. If an engine with streaking is operated long enough, the streaks will usually go away. We've released several tech Tuesday articles about this over the years. Nikasil is honed with diamonds. The plating is harder than most tooling that is used to machine various metals, scoring deeply into the surface simply doesn't occur. People use the term scoring very loosely. Do you have any photos of the condition that is in question?

Sure thing https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1277887 it does look as if the term is streaking but it was very severe to the point it ate into the pistons like that of bore scoring. I�ll get photos of what the streaking did to the aftermarket pistons later

Quotes source post: 18604378

I remember this a while back and was wondering when you�d chime in.

We say at work: Give a fireman 2 ball bearings and lock him in a padded cell. He will break one and lose the other.

Quotes source post: 18604378

Oh.. That was "Fred"... I have heard all about that one and read the messages as part of my training.He seemed to be a great friend of Jake's, but he absolutely would not listen. The best one was the note from 2015 when he started the car on a morning when the low temperature as -3 and he went back inside to allow it to warm up. This alone was a huge no- no as called out in the FSI engine owner's manual, but to make it worse he fell asleep and woke up 3 hours later to the car still idling. At least he was an honest guy RIP.

The amount of thick carbon build up on top of those pistons tells me the car also saw frequent oil changes. (sarcasm)

Quotes source post: 18605405

In the folder one change was recorded in 3 years. That's all I know. The prior engine that this one replaced looked like a diesel in the tear down photos that FSI still has. Originally intermix killed it because Fred hit a speed hump and cracked the bottom of the engine, within the oil sump area. Let's just say that this one has been a poster child for classes and training for years.

Glad I have such an infamous example hahaha

Quotes source post: 18606357

Absolutely.. Jake even has a photo with himself, Fred and Tony Callas when they went to dinner in Boston while Jake and Tony were there to instruct a class at Bentley Publishers. Fred was a cancer researcher and worked crazy hours, which what supposedly led to the neglect of the car as a whole.

It's been a while since I've been here as I've been busy with life. I've got my factory short block timed and am putting it back together. I did buy several individual videos from Raby off of Amazon, but not the entire video catalog. They were very helpful. I thought this thread was about factory shortblocks. Glad I haven't spent a lot of time on RL and see that I haven't missed anything. Best to you all!

Quotes source posts: 18597013, 18597043, 18597045, 18597347, 18596906

Talk about timing... Scotty is seeing the same thing. Check it out. You Tube

Quotes source post: 18596989

Thanks for the knowledge drop Skip. Interesting stuff..

I was at Manheim last night combing through all the Porsche auctions. One car caught my eye. It was sent to auction by Carvana. A nice, but well used 2006 Carrera 3.6L Cabriolet. (see image) No reserve auction. Now you have to scratch your head, why would they just send a somewhat nice 997 off to auction? They need these types of cars, right? Well, I read the inspection report and it had serious mechanical problems found after they purchased it from an owner. At first, they posted a video with it running, but IMHO it sounded like something was about to let loose. Apparently it did, because the inspection report said it went INOP and they were unable to get it restarted. Guess this is like a Carmax... "Max Attack!" The last owner probably knew he had an expense repair on the horizon and decided to dump it on Carvana. BOOOOOM!

Curios to see what it hammers at.

Quotes source post: 18613078

I'll let you know. It's at Manheim in Atlanta. The auction ends tomorrow.

Quotes source post: 18613074

Dibs on the airbox.

Quotes source post: 18613120

I need you to get a FSI carbon one with your build� so I can see what they�ll look like.

I want to get the FSI airbox and their high lift camshaft upgrade. Which will require modification to the heads to run. Those are the final pieces I need to complete my build.

Quotes source post: 18615425

That sounds like it�ll be a very nice set up.

Quotes source post: 18613083

you got to assume the car is basically a roller, two it is a convertible. Maybe $9996.

I know this thread has gone way off topic but let's take it just a bit further. If someone wants a bullet proof 996 or 997, why not buy a roller for a good price (lets say $9,996) and have the engine rebuilt as well as replace all the worn parts. May cost you $60k all in before its done, but you will have a brand new car that inevitability will catch the Porsche S curve over the next decade or two. What I don't like to see is someone paying $30K for a unicorn colored car that is 2 mos away from imploding. Rather see you pay $10k for an eventual roller. Or $40k for a well sorted car that all you need to do is put gas in it and change the oil 2x a year. If only I had more garage space...

Which is why, if you stop by CarMax for a trade-in valuation, it will be between $12-$14k offer for a 996.

Quotes source post: 18617024

Or you can be like me and pay $40k for the well sorted car and still have it implode on you in a matter of days. Then you have a 4 liter with all the �bulletproof� nickies, forged rods, forged pistons, LN IMS, ARP bolts, billet paddles, etc. and you end up with a roller that has an engine nobody wants to touch because they didn�t build it originally. Suddenly getting back on topic and getting a factory shortblock starts to make a lot of sense.

Yikes - sorry that happened! Was it some sort of freak accident? Do you know what specifically took it out?

Quotes source post: 18617642

yeah we are going to need more details on what happened...

Rod bearings, I haven�t torn the engine down to confirm the status of the crank or rods to see if either are salvageable but bearing material was found. It had a deep sump and an Accusump. I suspect who I purchased it from put the factory amount of oil in it so it was low on oil. By the time I noticed it the damage was done and I was SOL.

Quotes source post: 18617772

that sucks bad man .. what's your plan to do next?

That 2.7 Audi swap is looking better all the time....

Luckily the factory block has me enjoying it again (really for the first time) although the situation is very much bittersweet. I contemplate cutting my losses and now have turbo money into this thing which is depressing since I was on the fence with the 4.0 vs turbo and clearly picked wrong. Someday possibly the rebirth of the 4.0 might make it all worth it. Shortly after getting back driving it picking up my buddies turbo from paint for the gt2 wing. The painter had a real euro spec gt2 with lots of cool parts.

Quotes source post: 18617826

Sorry to hear and congrats at the same tIme. So you went with the short block? Fwiw, I bought my 2002 in 2002. Rode the depreciation down, put more than what i paid for it in parts upgrades and service costs over the past 23 years , and probably won't break even until 2050. But i would do it all over again. Just an awesome car. You got off easy!

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He's on his 3rd motor....

Justin sorry situation but it is a great looking car and definitely worth a new motor good luck

Quotes source post: 18618113

3rd? What happened to the first 2?

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My bad.. I mis-read. His 4.0 broke, then he put a factory short block in. So, 2nd motor (I think). In any event, telling someone they got out easy having a motor break and having to replace it is curious.

Quotes source post: 18618306

The car is on its 3rd motor. What is unclear is the provenance of the �4.0� motor #2.

Quotes source post: 18615425

squirrel is probably getting one of those boxes and I�ll get to see. I heard is going to cost more than some people�s engagement ring 💍 😂. Squirrel did mention the flow improvement which seems amazing. I�ll stay with my $150 3.8 Carrera S airbox with the kN panel filter. Need to save the money for meat bourbons and beers. Meanwhile awesome adventure today driving the turbo at 140 listening to zeppelin stairway and getting some meats, priceless, for me the Mezger is the definition of bullet proof. Two cool sounds the classic from zeppelin and then the turbo wooosh . I�m living a fantasy. Short ribs for my beef soup Lamb chops for dinner.

Yeah I certainly don�t feel like I got off easy but it is what it is and it as either scrap it after less than a week of owning it or get it going again. The shortblock from Porsche (post 11 for pics) was the fastest cheapest and easiest way to accomplish that. Ideally I would have had the 4.0 rebuilt but time and money was not on my side as the car was stranded at a shop who was kind enough to take me in but didn�t really have the time or space to dedicate to a full rebuild. Luckily my friend has connections but even something as seemingly simple as getting a new crankshaft would have proven difficult as they are not available from the factory or aftermarket (someone develop a forged crankshaft already) and until I open it up who knows what will be needed. The shortblock was delivered to the shop from Porsche in less than a week. I figured if I couldn�t get past all the bad luck at least an engine built by the factory with a warranty would be more appealing to a prospective buyer than just about any other option. While in there I wanted to do my best to make it the best car I could so nobody, including myself, would have to go through what I went through. We did the single mass flywheel and clutch as the dual mass was near death, added UAOS with track drain, Numeric shifter and cables and so on and so forth. I removed the Acusump but transferred over the deep sump and various other parts from the 4.0. I located another engine that blew up on the dyno for a core and squirreled the 4.0 in the corner of the garage and will probably try to rebuild it myself someday with the luxury of being able to take my time. And as far as I know this is the 3rd engine. We found an aluminum welded plate on the valve cover so it appears a cam chain let go at I think it was 43k miles in 2017. Then I have some receipts from LN for the Nickies, JE pistons, IMS bearing, sump, billet paddles, ARP head bolts, spin on filter, low temp thermostat and some other parts. Carfax show the engine refurbish at that time as well. The poor 4.0 lasted less than 15k miles. This car has had more than its fair share of people wanting to save it. Hopefully the next time it is getting a new engine it won�t be because the previous one died. Thank goodness I have grown to prefer the 996 and it is fun to drive. If I decide to sell it I would try for a 996 with a Mezger. If I keep it I will probably end up dumping an obscene amount of money in it as ROI is already out the window. Something�s g along the lines of a CSR in the US is my goal.

Quotes source post: 18618709

Wow that sucks and your patience on the project is admirable. I like your CSR-esque idea btw.

No you didn't get off easy. And sorry it happened to you. My comments were from a relative perspective poking fun at my expense not yours, since I bought the car 23 years ago paying top dollar and then enjoyed riding the 996 depreciation cycle down while spending well more than the purchase price on parts and service along the way. Poor example of sarcastic humor. But as i said, love the car and would do it all over again out of the pure enjoyment it has brought me over 2 decades on and off the track. Hell, i just refreshed the engine again and have a plan over the next 5 years for more refresh and enhancement. quite frankly, its an annual project of fun. If you are willing to share, love to hear more about the history of the original engine. Why it failed the first time, who did the 4.0 rebuild, as well as more about the short block rebuild. It sounds like you did the short block rebuild right. As it pertains to the M96 in the track, assuming the engine has a good imsb, the water pump is fresh and the bores are in good shape, there are 3 things that can kill our m96 engine. (1) Oil pressure & starvation, (2) aos failure and (3) heat. Many ways to mitigate these 3 issues, but at the end of the day they can bite any and all engines if there is a weak link. Out of curiosity, did you ever test the oil in your 4.0 before it failed?

In my opinion and that is the skeleton in the closet with these engines is that a lot of people, a bunch of them car salesman don�t know how to properly drive these cars. I have been on many test drives even at porsche dealerships where the salesman takes the car out and guns it right away before it being fully warmed up. Most times the sales person doesn�t know what we know. A lot of people that own Porsches don�t even know about rennlist. By the way for whoever is looking Los Angeles Dismantlers LAD is having a sale on engine transmissions and project cars. As a of yesterday they had two engines with metal in the oil filter.

bump

Quotes source post: 18619286

the rnd engines are stock. Since they have the FSI partnership they don�t build or sell increase sized engines. There are builders out there that will basically do what you want, lower prices and you don�t have to give your core up. Many of them are small race shops in California, yes warranty 12 months unlimited mileage. There are many ways to skin a cat.

What about RND Engines from LN Engineering as an alternate choice? ....While they aren't factory short blocks but come with Nickies, ARP fasteners, and other upgrades which seem to be another choice.

Sure, RND engines are a good choice given the nickies and LN solution both of which you don't get from the short block. Comes down to if you want to do it yourself or have LN or FSI do it. Also comes down to what level of bells and whistles you want.

Quotes source post: 18619293

Do you have names of any of these shops in CA? Vision Motorsports is one. I called and was quoted $20k for a rebuild using steel liners and dual row ceramic IMS bearing. They don�t like to use IMS solution because of vulnerability to external damage. They strongly recommend their shop does the install and initial setup/tuning. Not a very cost effective solution for DIY owners�

Odd, since 2011 we've had to replace a single IMS Solution hose due to "external damage" which was from a car that was in an accident. The IMS Solution hose is tucked very close to the bottom of the engine, and totally protected by the horizontal brace that runs between both suspension uprights. It is further protected by the sway bar. Put simply, if you see damage to a stainless steel braided IMS Solution oil supply hose, you will need more than a new engine or hose, you'll need the car to go with it. At the end of the day when people use this excuse for not using the IMS Solution, what they are really stating is "installation of this product isn't profitable enough for us". The same thing goes with iron liners, they are quick and cheap, therefore profitable and easy.

Quotes source post: 18619682

I bet a good number of Porsche Indies rebuild engines. Doubt they develop any parts for the M96. Instead, most source a good number of parts including blocks and IMSBs from LN. All you have to do is go to the PCA club races at the big tracks and you can ask. These same indies run caravans of customer cars to and from the club races and set up customer tents for pit support. Everyone is happy to talk shop. You can find out more over a race weekend than you can in 5 years on RL.

Quotes source post: 18620274

Those are assemblers. Not builders. Generally they bolt engines together without dynamic balancing, and without measuring/ setting clearances. We have tried to educate these types of shops about the importance of taking additional time with engines, but most are too busy for business. They are much better at vehicle preparation than engine building. It works for some, and it doesn't for others.

Quotes source post: 18620505

My point exactly.

Quotes source post: 18620505

I'm not sure what's your point or goal here and why you refuse to acknowledge that there are places other than FSI/LN that are more than capable of building high performance engines. Sure, maybe they haven't developed a new IMS bearing, fancy carbon intake or whatever else you've been cooking up - that's not their business model. Just because they don't post on rennlist daily and write lengthy paragraphs defending their shop and touting their superiority over literally everyone else in the industry doesn't mean they are not putting in quality work. They just don't shout about it at every opportunity. With your logic, those "assemblers" should have hundreds, if not more, of cars blowing up at the track with all those unbalanced blocks of aluminum with clearances as wide as daylight. Let's not forget that you CAN kill an FSI motor with ****ty maintenance so the owner is just as responsible here. For heaven's sake, have some respect for yourself and others in your industry. They are the very people that are supporting YOUR business by purchasing your parts in many cases. I'm not saying there aren't **** shops out there but your statements tend to throw a pretty wide net covering everyone. /rant

Quotes source post: 18621243

Assemblers and builders are different in every portion of the automotive industry. In the domestic world you have general shops assembling engines from pieces that they buy and they attain marginal results compared to those like Kaase that develop components and build engines with them at a different level. If any shop has more equipment for working on cars than engines, they are not engine builders. If a tire machine and alignment rack are more important than an engine balancer, flow bench, or milling machine, the focus they have is apparent. Many of the "rebuilt" engines that do fail succumb to things that were overlooked because the builder wasn't a builder, he was an assembler. He was never taught to assume nothing and to quantify everything. In some cases they believe that plastic-gage and a vernier caliper are precision measuring tools. This is because they are assemblers, and not builders. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the purchaser understands the differences between the results they are purchasing. In the Porsche world so far I have not seen this, as buyers routinely seem to think that you can just buy everything and bolt it together, expecting it to work. In the last TKG class that I attended as an observer no professional in attendance knew how to properly measure bearing clearances. Not a single person knew how to properly measure and set piston ring tensions, and no one knew what cylinder surface finish was. At the end of the class they did, but the scary part was how many of them had been building engines without knowing these things. That being said, wide clearances aren't the issue, clearances being too tight and at different axes of measurement is the issue. As "technicians" get less mechanical in their roles and day to day work with vehicles, we are seeing further degradation in the understanding of how engines truly operate at the general workshop level. This will continue.

@BRS-LN I have a question: Since you sell parts to the hobbyists that build their own engines, how are they supposed to adjust bearing clearances if those numbers aren�t even published?

blah blah blah you have endless anecdotal examples to support your "we best, everyone else sucks" essays. Pretty sure I'm talking to a ChatGPT robot optimized for rennlist forums. I'm done here.

Quotes source post: 18621546

These figures are in the process of being published, for this very reason.

Quotes source post: 18621526

its interesting that you think a set of calipers and a scale makes someone an engineer or engine builder. Reality check...If you have to start with someone's else's core it's an assembly, it's just bolting on internal parts, cracking a case and measuring someone else's creation is nothing special. For all the cool stuff LN does, their PR department is gross.

Quite the opposite, those things are what engine assemblers believe are adequate. I've certainly assisted in taking this one far off topic, so I apologize.

Quotes source post: 18621580

@BRS-LN follow up question: what if I am building my motor now? Or, put another way, why did all the guys do to properly assemble your parts clearances in the past?

Again with all this sand kicking first if L&N or any other firm goes through the trouble of making/ gathering intel on an item they sell to the public why do they have to give it to you for free??? secondly does every carmaker publish motor specs and tolerances to the public if you don’t like what they sell don’t buy it

I have nothing to add

Quotes source post: 18622147

Look, I�m just trying to assemble a motor with @BRS-LN parts. And I would rather only do it once. Since they sold me the parts I�m only looking for some guidance. Sounds like I need to wait for the book. Or, I forge ahead and �assume� the bearing clearances are correct on the main and rods. A lot of these motors have been built by enthusiasts without these clearances known (how do you adjust the clearance if you cannot buy different bearings or machine the crank?).

Quotes source post: 18622177

If you need a particular clearance, I am sure we can help you with this. The first step is to measure the clearances that you have in different axes and see if you lack the minimum clearance based on the old .001" per 1" of journal diameter rule in any of the axes that are measured. Clearances are adjusted by different methods, generally the crank carrier requires line- honing if the measurements are not adequate. They are almost always too tight if adjustments need to be made. In other cases the crankshaft is polished, and in other cases the big end of the rod is slightly opened. All of this is honestly better suited in another thread, since a factory short block gives you whatever clearances that the factory gives you, and that's what the topic of this thread is.. Sorry for the continued infiltration.

@BRS-LN agreed that I placed my question inappropriately. Apologies to the PO for the hi-Jack.

Quotes source post: 18622405

@BRS-LN Hopefully in that book the measurements/clearances are in metric (+ imperial if needed) system. After all it's an European engine and everything else is measured in metric so those clearances should me using metric as well - just a tip.

@BRS-LN , any updates on book eta, contents and cost? Also, do you guys have a new product list compiled as well?

Quotes source post: 18623392

Not yet. The LN/FSI merger is not yet complete and won't be until around July of this year. Jake's 11 year old daughter, Ava had Neuro surgery earlier this week. This has slowed things down on the development front for the past couple of months. He won't give us any dates for completion on anything, which is what we expected. Finding a publisher isn't easy, since books about technical things with cars and engines are pretty much a thing of the past. Everyone that we've contacted only wants to publish things about vehicle history and stories.

Quotes source post: 18623984

Hoping for a speedy recovery for Ava. Family comes first. Unfortunately, publishing isn't my field. Gotta be someone here on RL in the publishing industry. Every time the Essential Companion prints more, they are sold out quickly. Target rich environment of 350k 996 and 997 owners that need the book as a christmas present.

Quotes source post: 18623140

The Knowledge Gruppe Fastening Specification books for the 996 & 997 have the torque values in both. http://www.theknowledgegruppe.com/pr...ategory/books/ There might be a chance the clearances in the new book will be in both as well. But as long as it's in one or the other, it beats what's available now...zilch.

Quotes source post: 18623984

Hell, just go and sell it as digital,

@BRS-LN Please tell Jake that we send our best wishes to Ava and family. Just making this comment for the Rennlist community at large.

Quotes source post: 18622405

That's interesting how you mention how they are too tight. When I brought my parts to my machinist, he told me my crank mains and factory rod mains were tight. He align bored the bearing carrier for me. I switched out the rods for an unrelated reason to Carillos and they were dead on.