Request Info / knowledge - Probs with new purchase

Hi, All; I took custody of my new-to-me 2001 C2 a week ago on Monday. Was thrilled. On Tuesday, I noticed it was running with a bit of a miss just coming off a stoplight. You know how you blip it to build up the rpms to the point where you can let-out the clutch? That's when it would miss. Once the revs built, it screamed. Then Wednesday AM, it ran a bit rougher when I started it, but smoothed-out. Then I saw the CEL was on. Connecting my el-cheapo code reader, it said that cylinder one had a misfire. Stupidly, I cleared the code. I was kind of upset, so I called the non-Porsche dealer from whom I'd purchased it. He told me to bring it in. They then took it to an indie shop who told them a (I don't remember code or exact name) cam position solenoid sensor error had turned on the CEL for them. But that it didn't need to be replaced. They allegedly drove it around and it's working just fine for them at this point. Nothing was done. Making matters worse, I'm out of town, so I can't check it out. The indie told my contact at the dealer that Porsches throw codes all the time with nothing wrong. (hmmmm....) I then recalled that I thought I read something on this forum that voltages were extremely critical to the 996 and that errors or poor running could be traced to an off-voltage situation. How about a weak battery? The battery was checked-out by the indie as part of the checkout performed when the dealer first obtained the car. They said it was weak but not in need of replacement. So... at this point, I'm out of state, wondering if I made the worst purchase of my life (car fantastic when I'm driving it), if I'm being sold a bill of goods on the CEL codes not being a factor, or what to do next. I could really use some thoughtful responses and not sarcasm at this point. I haven't had the car long enough to have even poked around in it. I'm car-savvy having been a Mopar tech in the 70's and having restored a Vette, but I just don't know the Porsche intricacies (yet). Thanks for any encouraging words you might have! Carl

Hi Carl, "The indie told my contact at the dealer that Porsches throw codes all the time with nothing wrong. " Total BS right there. These cars have very sophisticated onboard diagnostic and you should trust that before you trust any human being. Since you saw cyl #1 misfire (P0301), the best case is it needs coil and/or plug. If the indie really saw the CEL tripped by the variocam solenoid, that could be an expensive repair. There is no such thing as "cam position solenoid sensor". There is a cam position sensor and a variocam solenoid/actuator. What kind of warranty, if any, that comes with the car? No worreis about resetting the misfire CEL since misfire tests run continuously and it will come back if the problem is not fixed. IMHO, the best is to take the car back first and check and fully document what you find (without resetting the CEL) first and go from there.

BTW, low battery will not trigger the CEL you saw and the alleged one that the indie saw...the DME is smarter than that.

Carl, How many miles does the car have on it? Was it a rainy day when your car threw the code? Older 996 coils tend to develope cracks. If/when that happens damp days can cause misfires. 3.4ltr engines call for plugs @~ 30k I think. If I am wrong someone will correct me. As Ahsai points out it could be something simple. When you get home post more info. Rennlist loves to help you spend your money

[QUOTE=fpb111;12646995]Carl, How many miles does the car have on it? Was it a rainy day when your car threw the code? Older 996 coils tend to develope cracks. If/when that happens damp days can cause misfires. 3.4ltr engines call for plugs @~ 30k I think. If I am wrong someone will correct me. As Ahsai points out it could be something simple. When you get home post more info. Rennlist loves to help spend your money.

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What a douche! Mine never threw a code. I'm thinking coils, plugs, or air mass sensor.

I would start at the coil and plug before doing anything else. And find a good Indy to deal with for bigger problems should they arise.

Hi, All; thanks for the responses thus far. Sorry; forgot to mention that it has only 47,800 miles on it; no service records available with the car, and nothing really by talking to the local Porsche dealer (as far as notable repairs). No warranty other than the dealer saying that no car will go off their lot with a misfire. The dealer seems (yeah, I know) straight-up, but they are NOT a Porsche dealer, so they rely upon this indie shop for all of their euro car issues. I have Zim's just down the road from me so will probably check with them. Rubik, I would agree with you WRT the misfire code, but am a bit concerned about whatever cam-related code did appear (like I said, this code allegedly appeared AFTER the dealer took the car to the indie shop. It was not present when I checked the codes). Could a misfire manifest itself into a cam issue? Sure it could, but the fact that it was definitely only on one cylinder (THAT FACT I *know* for sure), and would disappear once the revs climbed makes me think it's only a misfire issue. No idea if the plugs were changed at 30K. Or even if correct plugs were reinstalled if done by the owner or indie. fpb111, no dampness whatsoever (we're under severe drought in DFW). Same basic climate conditions for the past week before I left town. Concur with that being a possibility otherwise. Hey - just thought of something. If, when the porter washed the engine, and if the coil was cracked, I can see moisture getting in there. I suppose it could even last a day or two even if weather was dry otherwise. However, I have no idea if the engine was washed or not. Didn't look that different from my first examination of the car, but then again, I didn't quantify dust accumulations. Ahsai, I've enjoyed reading your other posts about engine teardown, and you already helped me by posting the sound of a sticky starter. Remember, I'm just recalling what the indie TOLD the dealer, who then TOLD me, so without any written info, you know where that gets me. He did say that if whatever it was had to be replaced, it was about $3000, so I'm assuming that's the variocam solenoid. Would that cause a symptom like one cylinder misfiring? (I have no idea...). After I reset the misfire code, it did not reset in 50 miles, so I don't know if that's enough drive-time for it to reappear if it was going to do so. And it's since been driven by the indie, and they said no codes appeared after whatever cam-related code appeared. Concur with getting it back and checking out fully on my own (probably with help from Zim's). I just don't want to get too far away from the purchase date if there *is* something brewing in there.... Carl

Carl, Likely a simple coil/plug issue. I had the same problem right after purchasing mine and it turned out to be a cam solenoid seal causing a vacuum leak ($12 part, $900 to find the problem). Take it to another indie since you don't sound like you have a ton of experience troubleshooting this kind of stuff. Check out my P301 misfire thread.

Peter, do you have a link to the P301 misfire thread? All I could find in your record of posts was one about the P1315 issue. If I *do* have a cam/whatever issue and it turns out to be the seal, how much did it cost just to replace it, after the $900 diagnosis? As in, if a $12 part and a short time to install, it may be worthwhile just to replace it as a preventative measure. Thanks! Carl

Note Peter's is a MkII, which has variocam+ and its solenoids/seal are like spark plugs. Very easy to replace. Yours is MkI, which has variocam. The solenoid/actuator is much more difficult to replace (hence the $3k labor). The cam cover needs to come off and resealed afterwards. Probably too early to think about this before you actually see the codes. If you have a Porsche indie that you trust, that would help alot. Even though you may not do deep diagnostic yourself, I think it's still good to get the car back, reset all the codes, drive it for a few days, learn the car, and see what code(s) pop up to get a good basis.

I'm no expert, and I don't own a 996, yet. I'm still researching them heavily and hope to close in on one in the next week or two. That being said, I've researched the IMS stuff ad nauseum. My take-aways from the articles I read were the two warning signs. 1) metal in the oil. 2) cams getting out of sync. I know you guys are all more experienced than I am, so I might be completely off. But I thought I'd throw that out there, if for no other reason than to be refuted.

Carl: Nice looking car....take a deep breath and try to sleep at night. It's hard to do. Anyway, based on your post, I would consider having somebody with a Porsche tool or Durametic or another tool capable of reading the DME (engine computer) measure camshaft deviation. It should be + or - 6 degrees, but mine is out of range high around 7.5 degrees, bank 1 is the one that really matters, but measure both. Here is a recent thread of mine: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-readings.html Basically it is measuring how much the pads that tension the chain that drives the intake cam by the exhaust cam are worn. The higher the number, the higher the wear. You don't want to get to the point where it throws a fault code, or if it does, you want to change them. I believe that is around 9 degrees. This is the expensive repair referred to above because the valve covers come off, which contain the camshaft bearing halfs, it's all integrated into one piece. Once the cams are out, you can replace the little plastic piece, that the small chain rides on (plus replace the small chains) and you are good to go. I am considering doing this sometime in the future on my car, will do it myself. That's why the 3.4 is a "5" chain engine, there is a chain that drives the intermediate shaft, one chain that drives each exhaust cam (another two), and two chains that drive the intake cam from the exhaust cam, one each bank. Good luck!

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What the indy told you is a variation of they all do that and when you hear that you should run not walk the other way. The misfire coupled with the presence of "cam position solenoid sensor" error code is to me significant. When the VarioCam solenoid/actuator go bad the DME can attempt to obtain the O2 sensor readings it expects by adjusting the fueling. It can adjust the fueling to the point one or more cylinders misfire. The failure can be intermittent in that shutting off the engine "fixes" the problem until the next time. When my Boxster manifested a bad solenoid/actuator and I observed the fuel trims as the engine was idling -- with RPMs going up and down -- making wild swings and reported this to the tech afterwards he told me the engine could have developed misfires as the DME would take the fueling to and beyond the limit. I cleared the codes and at some point shut off the engine. Upon restart it was running fine and I drove 30 miles home. The engine ran fine from the restart all the way home. The next business day I took the car to the dealer and the tech replaced the solenoid but the symptoms returned less than a day after I got the car back. The tech then had to to back in and replace the actuator too. Because I was not asked if I wanted to replace both -- I would have had them both replaced as my info is at least with the Boxster you can't distinguish between a bad solenoid or actuator -- the dealer didn't charge me for the duplicate labor to replace the actuator. You can replace the coil on the misfiring cylinder if you want. Maybe all 6 if they look bad. Change the plugs too if they are due on miles (or time). But I suspect you will at some point have to have at least the solenoid replaced and maybe the actuator too. In the 996 engine IIRC the solenoid is not that hard or involved of a job and this can be replaced and if the symptoms and error code go away then it was just the solenoid. If the symptoms and error code return then the actuator is bad and has to be replaced.

Macster, excellent explanation of the relationship between the cam, DME, and misfire. My idle has been what I would call relatively rock-solid. Maybe about a 20 rpm variation, if that. Yes, I stare at my tach all the time! I also concur with your evaluation of the indie shop. It's the one the dealer used, and fortunately is far enough away that I will not be using them, regardless, in the future. Paul, excellent advice on reading the cam deviations. I knew there was some allowed range, so I appreciate your input on those numbers. Ahsai, I intend to do just as you suggest once I get back in-state. I'd still like to know a bit better the relation of the solenoid/actuator/tensioners. Are both the tensioners and the solenoid a $3000 job, or is one easier than the other? If I do have to end up replacing one or the other, I'm thinking that unless the parts themselves are $500+ that I'd just have them replace all at once. I can understand how chain deviation could cause my symptoms, but also can see how the solenoid could do the same. At 48K miles, though, I'd be a bit surprised if the tensioners are worn past their limits. I can see a Durametric tool in my future. One last question: Since I was so upset seeing the first CEL and reading the code but not noting it, could my cheap reader have reported the numeric code for the cam solenoid, but textually just say "cylinder 1 misfire"? You know, limited vocabulary and all that. Thanks again; Carl

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The solenoid bolts onto the actuator to form one piece. No way to remove either without removing the cam cover. This thread should help you visualize the situation. The brass cylindrical part is the solenoid and the rest the actuator. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...questions.html See posts #1 and #4. The OBDII system can flag 500+ unique error codes so it's not running our of vocabulary Again, trust the system. It's a lot smarter than you think. Yes, your generic reader can also report the cam solenoid code (P13xx) if memory serves. If it says cyl #1 misfires (P0301) though, trust it, it IS cylinder #1 misfiring that has exceeded some threshold (i.e., x misfires out of y firing).

Sorry, here is my post....it is an MKII, you have an MKI FYI, a little different: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...p302-p303.html

I would wager that the dealer you bought from knew about the CEL and intentionally cleared the codes before you bought it. I find it highly doubtful this just suddenly appeared after you took delivery. Did the purchase at least offer something like a 30 or 90 day warranty?

http://www.racperformance.com/ Are these guys close to you? Solid rep in the DFW area.

Yeah, I've heard of them, but they're over in North Dallas, about an hour drive or so. Zim's is about 5 miles from me. I've never used 'em, but based on comments from guys in my PCA region, I would be comfortable starting there. Thanks for the reminder, though; they slipped my mind. Carl

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I would think that, too. Did think it as a matter of fact. When I first noticed the misfire, there was no CEL. I know that some codes only light the light after "x" number of errors, so I hooked up my code reader just to see if something was brewing. There was no code registered at the time, and ALL of the (don't recall what you call them) checks that take 100 miles or more to go from "INC" to "OK" were registering OK, so I'd be on the side of them NOT clearing it. I'm talking things like evap control system, cat converter, etc. checks that take multiple drive cycles and "x" time on the road to complete their checks. Carl

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Ahsai, I didn't articulate my thought clearly. Let me try again. What I meant to say is that since I have the lowest-line Harbor Freight code reader, it will of course register a P13xx) CODE, but it might call it a misfire since (at the time it was made) variable cam timing wasn't that common. Just lumping the final result with the same message for a number of discrete codes. Then again, I'm just peein' into the fan here. Only if one researched the code might they discover that it dealt with a cam position issue that RESULTED in a misfire. Cheap products = smaller memory = interesting byte scrub efforts to fit it all in there.

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Got it. I would think not despite being cheap but the most important is the code numbers since you can look up their definitions per Porsche service manual.

The difference in the cheap vs more expensive code readers is features and verbosness (is that even a word??) of the codes. They should all detect the same set of codes I have a cheap $10 OBDII interface and a free app for my phone in addition to my Durametric. For just checking codes, I use the code reader

Verbosity.

You've got lots of options in DFW. Mayo, Fifth Gear, RAC, Zims, and some others.

I would take one step at a time or else you're not going to last a month. I think putting in every single possibility can be exhausting especially if it ends up being the most obvious and common thing right off the bat. Obviously these forums don't really help in that department...

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This place is like WebMD: You go to research a headache and end up being convinced that you have cancer.

you certainly could have a stroke or heart attack reading some of the IMSB posts

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Alpine, I would usually agree with you. Eat the elephant one bite at a time, right? I was just a bit alarmed, though with how fast this seemed to snoball. I had the car 2 days; the CEL came on, so I immediately took it to the dealer (especially since I was going out of town). I didn't want the dealer saying tough nuggies, you've had it 10 days if I waited until my return. I was *expecting* them to find and fix a common misfire situation. That's when the indie shop they were using says no sign of a misfire, but now the CEL is on because of a cam solenoid issue. 1. So I was concerned that maybe my reader gave me the cam code, but called it a misfire because it was cheap. 1a. Was thinking that possibly a misfire could somehow manifest into a cam code. As I said, I'm comfortable with engines, but I do not yet know the idiosyncrasies of the 996; I was looking (innocently) for a user here to say, "Oh, yeah, a misfire will sometimes be reported as something else as a result of the system trying to compensate for the misfire." As noted, I've been told to trust the readings since my DME is far smarter than I. Kinda like trust your instruments when flying in the clouds. 2. The indie is saying it threw the code but that "they do that all the time" which several forumites have tossed the bs flag on. 3. Allegedly it's a $3000 job to replace the solenoid. 4. I'm doing all this from 500 miles away by talking to the dealer who admits he knows jack about engines, and is just telling me what the indie told him. 5. At this point, my plan is to pick up the car, see if the miss is gone (indie swears it is, although they did nothing to it), then drive it a bit to see what happens. Will take it to MY shop of choice if anything turns suspicious. Love the car. First Porsche was a 944, and that was fun, but this 996 is FUN. My only regret is that I'm over the speed limit by the time I get into the upper range of 2nd gear! Thanks EVERYONE for walking me through this and helping me to understand a bit of my new toy. Carl

Well, well, an update. The dealer and I agreed on Monday to let the indie drive the car a bit more. Well, yesterday the P0301 cylinder 1 misfire code / CEL came on. They're replacing the coil pack and the plug on that cylinder. Dealer covering it. Still no other mention / no code thrown on the cam position solenoid. At least *something* is being fixed. Carl

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It only seems like it's "snowballing" if you read every little thing in this forum and let it get to ya because half of it is like $hit anyways. Peeps spend more time here worrying, bench-reengineering, criticizing, spreading paranoia, etc. As I've said before, your cost of ownership will be directly proportional to how much time you spend here reading these threads.

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Unless they are reading oil threads, "where do you put your ____ " threads, or the big good week here thread. =)

Good luck on the coil/spark plug replacement. Misfire codes can appear as pending before the CEL comes on. Don't sign off on this issue until you've put like 100+ miles on her. I'm not sure how long it takes to reset all ODBII stats, but 100 miles should be good. You can read pending codes with a more advanced ODBII reader that the shop has.

I returned to town and picked up the car Monday PM. Drove it one time after I got it home, then drove it twice on Tuesday. This was after #1 coil pack and plug were replaced for a misfire CEL. Went out this AM to go for a ride again (wanted to put some miles on it to see if any pending codes might show something), and didn't get a mile from my house when the CEL came on. No change in engine running, ability to wind thru the gears, etc. After about 15 mins of driving, I checked the codes with my reader (don't have a durametric). Code 1341 was present, which I believe means "Cam adjustment bank 1 below limit value." Now, but here and on the other renn site, folks have had very mixed outcomes with this code. Frequent discussion results in cures being attributed to: a. code cleared on its own b. reset the code, it came back on 18 months later c. r&r'd the wiring connector and it cleared. This allegedly due to cleaning slight corrosion in the connector. Exactly which connector, I don't know. d. got quotes from indy shops & Porsche shops from $600 to $3000 to fix. Unknown exactly what caused the code. Called the dealer. (quick recap: 2 days after buying car, P0301 cyl misfire cropped up. Dealer took to indie shop to fix. While there, shop said a cam adjustment CEL lit (didn't have code) but didn't see a need to fix.) Dealer says they're not going to pay for a $3000 repair, but he'd speak with his superiors to see what, if anything, they will do. Still waiting for call (only been a few hrs). I've been politely admonished that the ECU is pretty bulletproof on reporting correct issues, but with literally so many other owners having relatively good (?) results by ignoring or re-seating the connector, I was just wondering if the easy fix is prevalent here, or do most owners spring for the solenoid/actuator replacement? Thanks; Really love the car, but was hoping to wait at least a year before issues. Carl

P1341 is tricky. It could be electrical or 3k variocam actuator replacement. It needs a lot of troubleshooting to diagnose it properly. Some good threads here http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...&fromsearch=1& https://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-...n-3-years.html You need to find a Porsche shop that you can trust so you can trust their diagnosis. The error most likely will not go away on its own. If the shop already diagnosed it, ask them if and how they eliminated electrical problems. Their response should be something along the line of the diagnostic mentioned in the threads above. With the Porsche scanner, they can try to activate the variocam manually to troubleshoot it.

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That pretty much sums it up as your next steps. Obviously the easy and most common one didn't work, at least based on their initial diagnosis. I would find a Porsche specific shop that has the experience and also the equipment to properly troubleshoot what seems to be a more in depth issue. Or else you could be wasting a lot of time and throwing parts at various misdiagnosed phantom issues. Is there a 30 day return policy or something? I know some places have those kinds of things in place.

Thanks, Ahsai & Alpine; The sales mgr finally called later last evening. Said they could not take the car back because it's been titled and that just messes things up (my words, not his). They said they also could not pay for a $3k repair, but, based on the diagnosis, may be able to help offset some of the cost. I'm going to take it to a local indy Porsche specialist and throw some diagnostic bucks at them. I'm thinking that in order to limit the diagnostic expenses and to eliminate the big deal right off the bat, I should ask the shop to use their equipment to manually activate the variocam actuator - assuming that if it *does* click, I should then concentrate on other areas. Is that a valid approach? Carl

Hi Carl, first thing I would ask the shop is if they use a PIWIS tester. I would consider another shop if they don't have that. A good shop should already know how to diagnose it properly but of course you can quiz them about their approach. I think a reasonable diagnostic for this code should take no more than 2hrs. Basically they should do the activation test like you said to see if there's power. If no power, they need to trace the wires for continuity all the way to the DME. If there's power but they don't observe any actual cam angle change, that means a bad solenoid and/or actuator, which doesn't matter as it's the same labor to replace either one or both. They may ask for 1hr first and add more time depends on how things go. Usually the diagnostic fee will be waived if you go with them for the repair