Fabspeed Intake Vs. 3.8 Airbox Dyno

Back in my Evo 8 days, changing an intake without a tune was something that was for look fast, not go fast. The issue was that most aftermarket intakes that retained a MAF (stock ECU, does not apply to speed density standalone ECU's) threw off the MAF readings and caused a lean condition for what was a highly strung stock motor (19PSI of boost factory). However, the leaner fueling generally lead to a power increase on the dyno but was not the safest configuration for hard use. So, if going strictly by dyno numbers, it could look like a good idea. In the graph below, you can see the opposite, the aftermarket intake is significantly richer than the 3.8, 1 - 2 points richer is a big difference and will surely have an impact on power output, among other things. I wonder if this is due to a decrease in airflow not being corrected sufficiently by the ECU or a metering issue because some feature of the Fabspeed intake makes the MAF mad and its not metering the correct amount of air, thus not commanding the ECU to supply the correct amount of fuel. I wonder what would happen with the power comparison if the fueling was corrected for the 2 intakes and we could assess the airflow capabilities between the intakes. Now, that would still not take into account things like heat management, but as an indication of the efficiency of the stock intake, would be cool. Anyway, cool data and appreciate FSI putting it up on their channel, go watch it and hopefully people can weigh in with their opinions of the data. You Tube

Great info but I still love my competition air intake if I track my car or I can find a carbon fiber factory airbox that fits I will make that swap but really solid info I wish someone you do a major comparison with early cable throttle 996 to see if there is any difference

That looks very extreme to me. Something isn't right

Cool video and that's a much bigger difference than I thought for sure. I would love to see this on a stock M96 or M97 as well to see if the difference is just as great. The dyno looks to be done on a built 4.0L Stage 2 motor which I'm sure includes some improvements that probably help with airflow.

I think people need to not look at the power degradation solely and instead focus on WHY was there a power degradation ? What the ECU was doing for the 2 air boxes is wildly different as clearly evidenced by the dramatically different AFR. From how rich the run was, I think it’s not of the realm of possibility that with an apples to apples AFR and timing strategy - the results would be far more competitive and if so, then you don’t have an inherent problem with the intake itself, you have a problem of a non optimized engine calibration as a result of the air box. Maybe ​​​​​​ @Fabspeed Motorsport can chime in with the ECU tuning strategy they employ with the intake and if they recommend the ECU to be recalibrated with the addition of the intake.

Fabspeed does sell a tuning product on their website, but if tuning is also required in order to "add" a few HP, their intake now costs double. I switched from my Fabspeed intake to the 3.8 airbox because Jake said it was better. I just didn't realize how much better the 3.8 airbox was compared to the Fabspeed. What would have been nice to see would be a stock 3.6 airbox. I assume it would have been somewhere in the middle. But without a dyno, all I have are assumptions and dreams.

For a naturally aspirated engine, I would love to see all of the intake, exhaust and software folks give us quantifiable numbers and ways to configure. But it hasn't happened yet, and I doubt it will going forward. But I hope I am proven wrong.

Since the MAF only reads a tiny fraction of the actual airflow the subtitles of getting the MAF positioned correctly and the airflow through it to be representative of the overall airflow are quite important. Without changing the ECU tune the diameter and shape of the pipe that holds the MAF ought to be exactly as the factory setup. If not the MAF will see a different amount of air in it's limited vision and mess with the AFR - as that dyno graph shows, the MAF is seeing a lot more air that isn't actually flowing and enriching the mixture. Sometimes a simple thing like an airflow straightener can get it back to normal. If the airflow through the MAF isn't nice and linear that can also cause problems. An airflow straightener can sometimes correct those problems. If the size/shape of the pipe the MAF is inserted in differs from stock, then for sure ECU tuning is going to be required.

Is switching to a 3.8 airbox plug and play?

I am guessing that the car will perform better with the aftermarket air intake system ............... because the owners wallet is a thousand dollars lighter 😁

FWIW, On YuTube you will find videos on testing air intakes, exhausts, etc on a dyno using a 997 from MOTIVE. Well worth the time to watch. If I remember correctly, they did NOT make any software changes. It was plug and play. Search Motive Myth Busting and you will find it.

I also believe that airflow from a car at speed creates a type ramming effect that the fabspeed picks up maybe I also wish there was a comparison test of all boxes so calling all you tubers make this video and use cable 996 as well as egas cars in a comparison of the top 3 air intakes and stock 3.6 /3.8 air boxes

Mine was.

996c you are right aftermarket boxes are expensive but when I open my lid and see all that carbon fiber and FabSpeed’s xpipe it does give me a warm feeling worth every penny to me if I were tracking my car I would want to squeeze every performance possibility but for now I’m content

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I've installed 2 3.8 airboxes now. 1st was my 2002 C2, and the second was on a 2004 C2. You have to relocate the SAI. But that's a minor issue. I actually used a Fabspeed bracket in order to relocate it. Also, you have to do some trimming on the 3.8 airbox. I use a Dremel and none of the trimming shows.

Thank you.

Just because something physically bolts in to an engine doesn’t make it plug and play as a system. Sure, it bolts up but it loses up to 70 FT/LB of torque. It may be plug…. I’m not so sure about play.

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I hear you and agree. The conundrum we all face is that no examples of testing and multiple configurations exist in the public channels to review. Maybe no one has the money to test it. Maybe it's been tested by the product manufacturers and there is no configuration that works and therefore not made public. Wish I New. But I do know that all of us have either spent or will be spending $10k on air, software and xhaust upgrades that may at best provide 10-15 HP improvement for our naturally aspirated 996. That's ~$1000 per HP. Crazy isn't it.

I was very interested because I heard something similar so I bought a 3.8 airbox for my 996.1 which had been converted from 3.4 to 3.8, but another shop said the 3.8 Airbox didn't fit by a smidge. We put the fabspeed back on, and went about our day. I may have the shop who built the motor try to put it on and see if it'll work...or if there is something making it not fit with their motor build... Thanks for the info! Would love to see the stock box performance graph as well.

997 3.6 I understand is a direct fit. To everyone point, we really have no quantifiable clue what improvements we get by adding the 997 3.6 or 3.8 airbox over the 996 airbox other than aesthetics. Add/Edit: if you have some quantifiable data, please post!

I happened to be at FSI yesterday as I was dropping off my car . I witnessed the Dyno runs as I am always fascinated watching and seeing what the car can do . I am no expert just a general DIY type gear head. Any way the first pass with the aftermarket air intake set the baseline . I couldn't hear all the discussion but they decided to try the stock 3.8 air box . I was really interested at that point because a 3.8 air box is in my future for my build . It took the mechanic 10-15 minutes to swap the aftermarket to factory air box . Then they fired it up and ran the test again with the results you see posted above . I can honestly say I never would have thought the change/results would be as great as they are . Shows what I know 😁. Had I not witnessed with my own eyes I would have been skeptical . I guess Porsche knows how to design an air box 😋. It is one data point but it convinced me for my build I am using the 3.8 air box .

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The 3.8 airbox that I modified to fit the 2004 C2, was recently moved to Luis' 3/98 C2. I don't believe they had to do anything special to get it to fit. Also, Luis said they didn't use the Fabspeed bracket that I used on the 2004. The mechanic that installed it for him moved the SAI by just removing 1 bolt I believe.

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The 3.8 dropped right in my 7/98 without any modifications except moving the one bolt on the SAI.

The 3.8 airbox fit fine in my '99 C4. I used the original snorkel and did not move the SAI pump at all. I did slightly trim some of the reinforcing ribs near the latch to have it sit nicely in the stock location. No issues. I also like the fact that it says 3.8...since that's what I'm running!

Happy to weigh in on this, Clearly there is something else at play here. When looking at the video, it seems that your test car is clearly heavily modified. Do you happen to know what tune it's running? Or what variables were adjusted throughout testing? Switching to a factory 3.8 airbox on a bone-stock 996, you would not see those gains. I will include a couple of dyno graphs below, as we have found time and time again our airbox outflows the factory 996 exponentially, with similar results on the 997 as well. By no means are we diminishing your 3rd party research, but it's just another data point to consider. That being said, for anyone that is in the PA area and wishes to farm some more data for the community, I will happily lend our Dyno. Bring in a 3.8 intake and we can run it back to back and do a live video feed of the results. [Bone stock 996 vs. our intake] [Bone stock 997, only running the intakes back to back]

Can you add the AFR data to the graphs and advise if any ECU calibration was done. The offer to have testing done on your dyno for the community is awesome, wish I was closer… and my car was in 1 piece 🙂 BTW - not my test car, just posted after I saw the video on YT and thought it was interesting and notable given the lack of dyno testing and discussion of the importance of having a properly calibrated ECU for a given combination of parts.

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I would be more than happy to ask our Tuning team to add it, may just take them a little as they are working on clients' cars ATM. Both tests were done on fully stock 996's and 997's, same day, within an hour of each other. No ECU recalibration. That is why I am firmly asserting that there is something else going on with their data. 50+ WHP differential from an airbox is essentially impossible.

wow, an actual Technical thread for a change, a pleasant diversion !! Zbomb and theperf are spot on as to "WHY" there is such a power lose in the Dyno graph. The AFR is way to rich due to "over-reporting" of the MAF. This was noticed in the thread a while back on MAF Sensor Data= Horsepower Potential..The stock 3.6 engines were averaging about 240-250g/s of mass air flow and one car fitted with the Fabspeed Twin Filter MAF Housing was reporting 270-280 g/s mas air flow from a stock 3.6 engine. The Fabspeed Intake needs a MAF Sensor that it calibrated specifically for it to correct the over-reporting. I'm sue Jake and the FSI Team corrected the MAF tables in the DME on this car to get back the Horsepower lose, but the correct way would be to design and calibrate a MAF Sensor to fit the Intake/housing so Custom Tune would not be necessary. Here is some exerts from the MAF Sensor Data=Horsepower Thread .. From Post # 159 ...For those curious in why I'm interested in the ID of the fabspeed intake or any other MAF housing, let my propose a scenario. I'll use (IF?) to denote an unknown hypothetical. The stock air box MAF on 996 99-04 housing measures 3.322in., to compare flow to a different size housing, we use the radius to the fourth power.. So, 3.322 / 2 = 1.661, 1.661 to the 4th power = 7.611 (IF?) we had a MAF housing that measured 3.250..3.250 / 2 = 1.625, 1.625 to the 4th power = 6.972 7.611 - 6.972 = 0.639 / 6.972 = 0.091 x 100 = 9.1% So on a calibrated MAF of 3.322 that flowed an actual 250g/s the (IF?) 3.250 MAF housing would report 9.1% higher or 274.72 g/s. (uncalibrated-over-reporting) The DME would see the over-reporting and over-fuel by 9.1% or 1.96g/s or 2.62cc per second or 157cc per minute. This over-fueling would cause the AFR to be 11.46:1 instead of the desired 12.6:1 for MAX POWER.. 250g/s @ 12.6 AFR = 19.84g/s fuel 274.72g/s @ 12.6 AFR = 21.80g/s fuel So you can see why if useing the OEM MAF sensor and DME, you MUST use a housing of 3.322 ID...( 84.37mm ) Probably why Jake Raby only approves of the OEM intake?? From post #107 ..Ahh, the Fabspeed intake, could you measure the inside cross-section of the area at the MAF sensor? I'm suspecting it is smaller than the stock cross-section of the calibrated Porsche stock MAF housing. I have no problem with the designing and installation of different intake systems, and have done so, but they MUST have the same cross-section area at the MAF sensor or a specifically calibrated MAF sensor for the housing size. Otherwise the g/s will not be accurate. Smaller housing size will show more g/s than actual, larger housing size will show less than actual g/s. I suspect this is why FSI does not approve of any aftermarket intake systems. From Post # 203 : Fabspeed Cross-section with MAF Positioning.

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Well, if the air box causes the fueling to get all jacked up - then I guess you could say the airbox would be to blame. But, I understand the point I think you�re trying to make which is an air box creating a sufficient restriction in airflow to choke that much power seems hard to believe (within reason here) - to which, I would agree.

Most changes in any engine requires adjustment time for the factory ECU/DME/pick your name for it, to adjust long term and even short term fueling. Swapping intakes back to back does not give the system time to adjust. I believe a proper test would require a decent amount of driving to allow the fuel ratios to reach equilibrium (if within the range of the DME/ECU of course). And that also then would likely mean dyno pulls on different days, which then leads to the inevitable differences due to environment changes, temp, humidity, etc.

Amen. Looking forward to the data to quantify this once and for all.

Even with an AFR of 11:1, I don't think you would lose that much power. At 4k rpm, the AFR was over 13:1 and there was still a huge loss.....so its more than AFR/MAF Actually, they shouldn't have published erroneous data

With such a fubard AFR, wonder what timing looked like ?

Looks like from the computer screen it's 2005 S built as a 4.0 stage 2.

I find these comparisons interesting . The charts listed are all on a Dynojet brand Dyno . But do we know if the software versions are the same ? And if they aren't the same does that affect the results/accuracy ? Just curious as I don't know the answer .

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A redundant double MAF Sensor would quantify and answer all the questions. A calibrated MAF Sensor/Housing in series and separate but placed between the "intake/air boxes with MAF Sensors" and throttle body, could measure the actual mass air flow of both systems and determine if there is an actual increase in mass air flow or just an increase of the "reporting of mass air flow.... IF there is an actual increase in air flow, there should be an increase in Power. IF the actual air flow is the same , but the reporting has increased, there will be an increase in fueling (AFR) and a lose in Power. BTW : thanks to Fabspeed for contributing , and to Judd at FSI for starting the conversation.....

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I have a 3.4 built out to stage II FSI specs (by FSI). I installed a stock 3.8 air box on it. It fits fine� I had to make some small/minor adjustments, but certainly nothing radical. I would be highly skeptical of a �mechanic� that said the 3.8 air box didn�t fit�

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The other thing that I would question is the distribution of pressure across the MAF plane. You could have the same cross section dimensions but have turbulent air or a pressure gradient especially if the sensor is close to a corner

Never tried a 997 air box, but I did purchase a stock 996 air box to replace the K&N intake that came installed on my car. I did not dyno the two boxes, but the K&N seemed to have a noticeable performance increase and sounded 10x better. I removed the 996 stock air box after about a week and never looked back. I would definitely consider a Fabspeed intake based on this understandably purely anecdotal evidence.

I think Flat 6 is being very gracious to run the Dynograph on the Fagspeed airbox with cold air blowing on it. However, if 274 HP is all it can produce with these fancy aftermarket intakes with cold air blowing on it, then I suspect the numbers will be worse when the decklid is closed and sucking hot air at normal engine compartment temperatures. I pass.

So what we have here is an upgrade that needs (1) the proper software program and (2) a reworking of the MAF to maximize its ability to add HP and torque? Is that right? If so, what software program and MAF configuration is needed? Who sells it and what will it cost to purchase and set up? Does Fabspeed offer all of this or do we need to go to various vendors to get it as well as a computer engineering degree to get it to work?

How about the cold air coming through the top vents at speed how does this come into play

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That's the beauty of the 996 and 997 airboxes so says the proponents. The air is isolated from start to finish in the snorkel and airbox away from the engine heat, whereas the single or double intake system is taking hot air and using it. Nothing is directing cold air thru a snorkel or duct directly at or into the single or double intake. Proponents of the single and double intake will say to you that if you go faster, the lid will rise and colder air will flow in. But to your point, all dynos are stationary so how do you really know. The answer is that during a dyno, they will blow cold air over the engine to facilitate the conditions you suggest, and it doesn't help one bit. Believe me when I say this, if I could gain 19 HP using a pretty intake, I would be the first in line to buy it. What I would like to get help on is for Fabspeed to prove to me that it can be done and how/what I need to do to obtain the extra power. If not, it's a pretty tube that no one will ever see.

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Spot on! My challenge is to do a LIVE uncut DYNO runs on both airboxes with the deck lids closed with cold air blowing on top of the engine's deck lid. My bet is that the aftermarket intake will perform worse and the 3.8 factory box will continue to show strong numbers as shown in the video.

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You would be the man if you did that! After going around the mulberry bush on this topic for 20 years, the conclusion to be drawn is that the 996 NA exhaust system is the key to a couple of extra HP/TQ. Plenum, throttle bodies, air intake, do nothing other than improve the sound. Software can improve throttle response and alter the powerband and maybe just maybe is key to pulling all of these parts together. But not one firm has yet to show it nor prove it. Please, someone, anyone, find me 19 HP with air induction. I will be first in line. 🙏

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Good question! @Fabspeed Motorsport When was this DYNO run pulled on the graphs you posted? As the last guy asked, what version of Dynojet software were you running?

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Would you allow optimization of the engine fueling and ignition timing for each airbox ? The reason factory air boxes, regardless of make generally perform so well in comparison to aftermarket is NOT that they flow more air, it's because the engine calibration is optimized for THAT factory intake. If you want to take advantage of an increase in airflow to make more power than the engine needs to know that it has more air available and can burn more fuel. If the MAF values are rendered incorrect because the aftermarket intake does not maintain the same exact scenario the MAF sees in the factory air box configuration, then it does NOT know how much air is available and you will not realize the potential of the additional air flow allowed by an aftermarket intake.

For the heck of it I went to the website to see what the description and claims are of the intake/filter . No mention of any additional tuning needed or required to get 24whp increase . It states it's a simple bolt on to get the claimed gains . I am a casual observer and find the discussion fascinating . https://www.fabspeed.com/porsche-996...xoCmO8QAvD_BwE

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You are right. One thing to keep in mind, the data and info in the OP is from a highly modified engine combination and we do not know what, if any ECU calibration was done on it. I would guess, but have no idea, that FSI does not send their 4.0 engines out the door with the factory ECU calibration they went in with. I hope someone takes the Fabspeed guys up on their offer to run the test, would be awesome and I think the fact that they offered lends some credibility in their confidence in what the results would be.

If you were close I give you my fabspeed competition (single tube) and the K&N I replaced on your motor would love to see a definitive answer ps no real difference on the *** gauge between the 2 but the sound of the FabSpeed’s was more noticeable on throttle

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So basically what you're saying is buying an aftermarket cold air intake for a 996 is pointless without an application specific MAF and/or at least an ECU tune? If that's true, then maybe Fabspeed (and other similar manufacturers) should clearly state that on their site. Something like, "You'll spend a $1000+ for our air intake system, but it won't make a hill of beans difference without ECU optimization and new MAF sensor. If fact, it could make performance worse. Therefore, if you purchase one of our competition air intake systems and think it's just plug and play, than you've just proven that the expression a 'fool and his money are soon departed' is truly factual."

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Do you know that the ECU calibration in the OP, FSI's test is stock ? I don't know if an aftermarket intake is pointless, if you are to take the data Fabspeed posted, it looks like healthy gains on an otherwise stock car, which does not apply to the FSI car, it looks to be very much NOT stock. What I am saying is - it does not matter if the intake performs "better" (more airflow) if the ECU calibration does not account for it, it will not yield the desired affect. IF, the FSI calibration, for their 4.0 motor we believe was being tested is done specific to the factory intake, along with all the other changes they perform - then it should not be expected that bolting on a change, really, of any type, will just happen to work. I think anyone taking the data in the 1st graph as a be all, end all on the performance of the Fabspeed intake against... whatever, is doing so not taking into account the systemic nature with which modern fuel injected engines operate and should consider that on THE engine being tested with THE ECU calibration being used, something really wonky and definitely not what you would want was going on and finding out more details on the test vehicle, and its overall state of modification really needs to be achieved before you can draw parallels to what your particular setup would likely do. Fabspeed posted their data, I have no reason not to believe them and appreciate that they post their data on an open forum for us all to debate - now, it would be up to the community to decide the extent with which they want to verify Fabspeeds data.

The interesting perspective would be that of the car's owner. Here you just gave a ton of money to FSI and their showing you the intake you'd like to use is costing you 50hp. I know I'd be be ditching that active wing pretty quickly. What you don't know is if they can tune it to get comparable numbers of the stock airbox.

So what are we solving for here? 1. An explanation of why the Dual intake underperformed the Oem air box? 2. An explanation on what it will take to eliminate the gap in performance output between the dual intake and Oem air box with regards to software and MAF. 3. Or are we discussing the general issue of how to get any performance out of the dual intake with our 3.6? What it will take with software and MAF configuration? As a side note, I believe that FSI uses the Oem software for the 4.0 but I may be incorrect.

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I had one on my previous Pcar. All I got was more intake noise and CELs. Zero power increase. It amazes me that aftermarket companies somehow think they can outsmart Porsche engineers in this fashion. Don't you think if there was an easy 24 extra hp laying around, Porsche woulda figured that out already? On almost all brands of cars these "cold air" intakes are actually sucking in hot engine compartment air. To those that believe the marketing, give me a call. I have some awesome snake oil I can sell you.

Bash hat the same could said of the 997 airbox on the 996 as well where’s the definitive answer I don’t believe there is one YET so just go by what makes you happy until you or others can give a final number the car owner would or should know if their car is faster it will most certainly be louder

You Tube An Australian stock vs aftermarket intakes on a 997 clip. The accent is strong and no English subtitles....

996 would be nice though

2 Question for the smart guys... It has been said that the Oem software will learn and adjust when new parts are put on. Plenum, throttle body, air intake etc. 1. Is this true, and if so, how long does this take and to what degree are adjustments made? 2. If the answer is yes, and it is determined that it takes a few minutes or hours of time in different conditions to adjust, is the data even relevant if the car is sitting on the dyno for 10 min for an air induction change without driving the car for the referenced time? I think where the questions are going is wrapped around how to eliminate "gaming" the dyno system.

Thanks for sharing the Australian video , I found it well done and informative . I was very surprised by their lack of results with the IPD/GT3 " upgrade " .

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I wasn't after having done the mod 10 years or so ago. It's a beautiful part that is well constructed as is the GT3 throttle body. They look great and sound great on the car. But no performance enhancement, even after an afternoon of "tuning" the software. Imho, we spend too much time looking for the "holy grail" in performance with the M96 that doesn't exist with air induction and "tuning". It only exists with turbo engines. Sure the induction stuff looks damn good, but only you and your mechanic ever see it. But it does sound good. The only way to get a little more " bolt-on" power for our engines is thru a better exhaust system, but at best it's 10-15 HP/TQ. But you can lighten your car to improve its performance. Or get a better suspension or braking system. Or become a better driver. Or you can get a rebuild that enhances your output from 320 HP to 420 while solving for all of the weak areas we discuss daily on RL. That's pretty much it. So the question everyone always asks is, "so how do you know" . And my answer is always, "if air induction and software actually worked, we would have countless data points, videos, white papers that would prove it on the M96." We don't and I doubt we ever will. But if we did, I would be first in line for an extra 20 HP. Who wouldn't. So please, someone prove it.

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Great thoughts! Years ago, I remember one of the lead engineers from Ford's performance division stating that aftermarket cold air intakes don't do much for performance over the factory designed airboxes on a naturally aspirated engine. He went on to explain that it's more than just a swap out, and that the car is designed with the factory box in the equation. Which reinforces what zbomb and PorscheTech3 have been saying on this thread. Therefore, unless Fabspeed can show us some new hard data, I'm going with the Aussi dude on this one. Wasted money for little or no gain and potentially a loss with some configurations.

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That's a good point to consider yet companies like Dundon routinely extract BIG power from the newer NA cars with intake and exhaust mods. I find it hard to believe that the M96 is so uniquely optimized from the factory when a Cayman GT4 can pick up incredible power with a full exhaust and upgraded intake manifold.

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Hey GC996, I have seen you mention these numbers several times and have been curious how you are planning to get 420 HP, but have always felt like I would derail the thread. However, my question seems a little more on topic here. What does it take to get an extra 100 HP out of our motors? I think at this point we all know its not coming from buying any one company's full catalog of bolt on parts, so what does it take in the rebuild? I'm guessing a 4.0 L build, but I would think it would take more than just increasing the displacement 0.4 L?

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You are going to have to take it to 4.0 or greater. FSI would be the best example of an engine builder in the US that does this successfully. From a European standpoint you have Hartech. ​​If you have the skills, which I don't, you can do it yourself thru LN or just go to LN for their rebuild which you will get a stock rebuild with better than stock parts. I highly doubt that with the chassis of the 996, that any of us would need anymore than 420 Hp to beat a 991 or 992 around the track with comparable driving skills. ​​​​​​Don't know if that answers your question?

Highly entertaining thread! I also own a 2007 BMW Z4MC. One of the 'upgrades' people tout on them is a carbon fiber intake that is modeled after the CSL race cars. It is absolutely gorgeous, and it makes a wonderful noise. However it also eliminates the MAF and necessitates an engine tune in order to use. Tuners of the S54 engine question whether there are really any gains to be had from it, and the general consensus is "not really but dear god just look at it." The BMW S54 comes from the factory in a very, very high state of tune. Even cams and headers don't add a tremendous amount of power; you have to add displacement -- or forced induction -- to make any real difference. As I learn more about the 996 I'm coming to the conclusion that its engine is similarly optimized by the engineers at Porsche. Thanks all for your contributions to this thread. If anyone wants to take Fabspeed up on their offer, I don't live too far away and would enjoy being there when it happens.

This is a comparison of a "Figure of Merit" for the 911s listed. There are two F/M numbers. the first is at peak HP and the second is at peak torque. The peak HP and the peak torque were taken from the specs along with the rpm at which they occurred. If you take the HP or (torque X rpm/5252) and divide it by the rpm and the displacement, you can see a comparison between engines. the higher number is better. It really compares volumetric efficiency. The 997.2 S is pretty amazing correction,

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Thanks, this did not exactly answer my question, but this combined with a little more reading about the FSI R40 did. It looks like FSI is able to make the extra 100 HP primarily with the extra displacement and head work (polishing/porting). They are not relying on some crazy tuning, cams, etc., so the end result is solid streetable 420 HP and not some peaky dyno or high-rev race engine. I agree 420 NA HP in a NB 996 with properly upgraded suspension/brakes/aero would be a beast!

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You think Porsche is still conducting research on M96 engines to see how to extract HP for public use?

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Assumed you knew what I meant. At the time they made the engines. Sheesh....some stuff just goes right over some folks heads huh.

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Bingo.

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Well, the most cost effective way to get there is an LS3, not an M96. Plenty of ECU tuning options and competent tuners for it as well. And, I agree with you...

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Being in Australia, we are some distance from Hartech, who have corresponded with me but UK to Australia, and they will deal with me on a 3.7 Nickie case with no core at a price, UK to Australia involves two countries taxes. US to Australia, one countries taxes. for me a safe displacement upgrade is enough. Hartech or LN seem enough, LN seems to be the choice for me 3.8 enough, in a world of speed camera and traps, protection of the engine for club track drivers education (long list). I will admit to the shame of building an LS engine, for the Aussie Holden sedan (your Chevy SS), I able to get block choice (LS9), billet rods, piston choice same as M96 build. I also had multiple cam choices. (Shrick considered detrimental on M96 forums). The big defect in comparison with Porsche M96 builds was Head choice , got for my boosted LS9, I got Brodix (Could do AFR a world of choices on the rack), with a local that can obviously further port a 2 valve head. The other deficit is engine management tuning Australia has bad tuners even for the LS. But their is choice and the right tuners can be found. The JDM guys have a world of tuners but they are majority boosted. The bigger issue I think is that Porsche need an accessible ECM tuning industry, either the ECU the car came with or a piggy back less desirable or ideally a standalone ECU to plug into the Porsche Harness. This would not be for dyno top end cars but for people who want safe "area under the curve" safe AFRs to protect their engine. The 20 year old ecu cannot compensate enough to reward NA modifications. I note Hartech dyno tune, but don't offer generic better heads, I note Jake Raby dyno tunes, but rightly for his business, the head improvements are his secret. I aspire to an elective rebuild, it will go on the dyno for the safety of knowing these AFRs.

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996 Dyno and NA mods. Then You Tube

That video had nothing to do with air intakes

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Appreciate the video. I like what Fabspeed does. High quality workmanship on their exhausts as well as intake. In fact, I love the dual intake. Beautiful piece and I would love to have one so I can stare at it in my garage as I sit in my soccer chair and smoke a cigar. But the key for me is to make sure it works; or understand how to make it work. Quite frankly, there is only one piece I will buy that probably does nothing for performance and that's the RPM Carbon Fiber Duck Tail. It may improve the aero, but a few years ago when I called them up, they hadn't tested it yet. All we need is for product manufacturers to prove that it works and fully explain what you gotta do to get the performance out of it. If it's just designed to be a pretty part only, so be it. Don't BS us. Unfortunately, we hear more crickets and double talk than we hear concise explanations. Enough said. Let's see what Fabspeed comes back with from their end and hopefully FSI provides more background explanation.

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This thread keeps going in circles. If i had a m96 still i would take up fabspeeds offer for a back to back intake dyno run. Plus they posted dyno results from their 997 3.6 tests. I dont think they have to come back with anything. Jake will not to respond as he doesnt give any info out unless u buy a motor. Not a knock just how he does it. U will never really know what he does or how he tunes. Btw, i have not purchased anything from either, but i have been to fabspeeds shop and seen the dyno and all there manufacturing equipement.

We installed this on my car and in my opinion it makes a difference. I have a panel KN in it, we didn�t have to do anything as this fit ok, the box had a small indentation cut on it. My cousin who retired from Porsche and was trained in Stuggart told me to get the airbox. Anyway today he�s an advisor to Porsche racing teams. FYI he said no to the ipd plenum. He did said that if I could get a shop to bore out the throttle and put a bigger plate on it to go for it. Also I spoke with him about head work, porting, polishing. He said same as Hoffman, these heads are good and they flow well, Hoffman does performance porting and this increases flow about 3 percent, so maybe 9-10 hp increase, now if you go big valves and add cams you can get good gains. The Hoffman big valve heads are $4,000, plus let�s say what $3,000 for shrick cams. If I have to repair my heads, paying Hoffman an additional $325 for 9-10 hp increase makes sense for me. Anyway, here is a pic of my 3.8 airbox. Looks pretty cool.

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😊 Every single one goes around in circles, littered with bits of useable info. But every so often you find a gem or two. To your point, I gotta agree. We didn't prove nor solve didly on this one.

On other forums Hartech were dynoing their big nickie bore M96 3.7s and 3.9. Majority of times they told their customers after dyno tests, intake mods take off, good exhaust mods, leave on. In Australia I think some of the JDM head porters could work it out as they do more 4 valve per cylinder work. But it won't be cheap. Jake Raby has hinted he doesn't port, re redesigns the head. I don't blame him for protecting from copy cats. I only want a bit more displacement grunt, as stated I would tune for engine safety safe AFR throughout rev range, not peak number. .

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Agreed, I don't blame Jake for protecting any of his ideas. He should. Without protection there would be no incentive for further innovation.

You can be certain that car in the opening video didn't leave FSI with 50hp on the table...lol.. Jake works too hard finding horsepower to just leave it laying.. Either the DME was tuned to get the AFR in line and power back, or the active spoiler was removed and a Factory air box was installed... The various 996's come with 3 different MAF sensors. (1 )for '99 C2 cable cars with DME 5.2.2 , (a 2nd) for '99 C4 and 2000-2001 E-gas cars with DME 7.2 , (and a 3rd) for 2002 up with DME 7.8... The 3 MAF sensors are Factory matched to the 3 different DME's and also to the Factory air boxes..........The 997.1, 3.6 and 3.8 also use the same MAF Sensor as the 2002 996., so swapping air boxes between them doesn't throw of the calibration much. Here is a $7k 997.1 x51 optional Factory air box, I wonder what the power is with this?? 997.1 X52 3.8 air box

My guess is no more than the plastic 3.8 Oem. But it is pretty isn't it.

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Very pretty! Probably adds some nice noise too. Like the S54 unit I mentioned earlier.

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recently I contacted Hoffman. He sent me his prices and also stated that the high performance option for head porting adds a 3 percent improvement. Another race shop told me that their 5 angle valve job, which they do on the rebuilts engines adds between 10-12 hp, 4 percent. Both shops said to get good improvements you need different cams and bigger valves, that is expensive because Hoffman big valve are over $4k with the performance porting and I haven�t check the shrick cams are expensive too, it wouldn�t surprise me if the cams are $3k or above, now you are really getting into a race engine. Do anybody knows if Jake does builds with different cams???

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Skip do you see any benefits, issues using a 997.1 MAF on my 99 car now that I have the 3.8 airbox. I�m pretty 🤩 happy with how it runs but if I can get any more power it would be cool. Soul headers going on tomorrow, hopefully the bolts are not seized.

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My guess is that Jake most likely has specific "proprietary specs" that are not offered for sale by Hoffman, so that the 3% improvement number may not tell the whole story. Between all of Jake's threads, he pretty much addresses what he does but not necessarily how he does it, as you would expect.

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The 997.1 MAF is matched to DME 7.8, you car has DME 5.2.2....not matched. What would happen if you tried it?? The window for improvement is very small, the window for being out of whack is very large. You would have a better chance at buying a scratch-off at the local convenience store and hitting a big payout..

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Yes, my R40 has custom cams Also, IPD Plenum with larger throttle body.

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would love to see what hp/tq numbers that engine puts down. Is that a $33k engine??

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Gimme more of dat CSL intake.....

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That's good news to hear that anyone with a IPD/TB can still use it and over the long haul it's not wasted money.

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Exactly !! I just threw it up there as a bit of a teaser/article of thought, as we are Technically dissecting air boxes...

The IPD Comp plenum is dyno proven and not a waste of money.... On an increased 3.8+ displacement JR power plant.

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Please post the graph�. Detail on the car would be good if you have.

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Sorry, no dyno graph. The engine was built at FSI and installed locally so no tuning. It's a stage II, 3.8 which, except in my case, dozens (probably more even) of these have been on his dynos and tested to the gills. He doesn't offer add-ons that don't make power with his engines, only ones that do. I take his word on that. The bigger engines need to breathe and the plenum allows this.

You say dyno proven and then don’t post any dyno graph… I love how I try to post stuff with data for discussion and then people like you chime in with your “I trust the guy” so no data needed. How about instead of “dyno proven” you just say that because this guy you trust uses it…it must be good.

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How about "Dyno Owner Proven" Jake's not an "expert," but he's one of the most knowledgeable people on the M9x engine. If he doesn't allow a part on his engines, it stands to reason it is detrimental to performance or reliability. If he allows it, it either works or has no significant effect. But what works on a F6I engine will not necessarily work on a factory engine. They are not the same.

I think we can argue this topic or anything FSI related till the end of time and probably not get anywhere. The info you'd need to make a fair comparison will not be provided because "copycats" and that's their choice, which is fine. Some people simply believe while others need supporting data - and that's fine too. The dyno was done on a 4.0L Stage 2 build. Can you extract top performance from that on a stock ECU with zero tweaks? I don't know but I doubt it. If I had to design a test to compare the intakes I'd do it in a following way: Pick a day with a fairly steady temperature and dyno a stock car with a stock tune and an intake. Then unplug the battery for a bit and install the new intake and go drive 60 miles or so. I don't know if the ECU has a learning period but that would eliminate that variable. Then do another dyno run and compare the numbers looking at several data points, including AFR. It's not perfect but better than guessing what FSI did or didn't do and going in circles. Fabspeed is not super far from where my folks live so if I'm in the area and their offer still stands I'd be happy to put up my time and car.

FFS, sometimes in life, we just need to trust people. The guy's been tinkering with engines since he was spat from the womb. He knows what works and more importantly, what doesn't with these M9x engines. I'll heed his experience and refrain from stroking out because I'm worried that the IPD plenum is sapping 5 hp down low. This subforum sure can be a cesspool at times. ​

I have no input on peoples parts selection, built engine, stock engine whatever - all gravy to me. From what I have read from FSI - their approach is highly systemic, nothing is done without a reason or without taking into account the systemic contribution. That�s why it is so hard to use their process or parts selection as an example to evaluate a specific components viability in a stock engine. When I posted the thread, the interesting thing for me was the AFR difference between the intakes and the discussion of why that was and how it affected the output. I do have a problem with people poking in using the term dyno proven having no data to back it up� that is all.

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JFC� 🤦‍♂️

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I think you're right but I think you're somewhat missing the point here. While there are folks that trust and the experience of the person is enough of a reason for them, there are also folks that are very technical and want to understand the how and why. The want to know how the sausage is made. This is not to be taken as questioning someone's skills but understanding how they got to a given solution.

Unfortunately, a cesspool was just created. Nobody is questioning, nor has questioned Jake and FSI dyno results or his ability to build an engine in this entire thread. We all know his expertise. What has been questioned by Jason and many of us is why there was so much of a difference in FSIs dyno between the 3.8 airbox and the Carbon fiber dual intake and what would need to be adjusted to fill the gap. These questions are a byproduct of trying to understand the inherent challenges of getting performance out of bolt-on air intake parts that many of us have experienced. Hence questions and comments directed at the air intake manufacturer. Give Jason a break. He is asking the questions that many are afraid to ask. And give Jake a break because he publishes more information than anybody which ultimately creates a discussion like this. We need both these guys on the forum to keep doing what they are doing or the 996 community will go nowhere.

The car in this video (2005 997S coupe, 3.8, 45000 miles) happens to be mine. A little background: the incentive for installing the aftermarket intake was not in search of performance. It was actually the result of unintended consequences. The goal was increased downforce when tracking the car. I installed an OEM aerokit front bumper but was unable to locate an OEM aerokit wing. Not wanting to use an aftermarket wing, I tracked down a turbo rear deck and wing and modified it to fit the Carrera S. The turbo deck did not allow for the use of the stock airbox, resulting in the selection of the aftermarket alternative. Other airbox options did exist that may have fit the available space, but I preferred the aesthetics of the one chosen. When doing that installation, the same manufacturer's exhaust system, including headers and 200 cats, was installed. A tune by another manufacturer was done after installation. No dyno was performed at that time, and I can honestly say that though the car sounded more aggressive on the track I don't know that performance improved. Fast forward - The car began showing early signs of bore score so I elected to have a complete rebuild while bringing it to 4.0. Prior to sending it to the builder, the stock tune was reinstalled. The aftermarket intake and exhaust system stayed on the car. Excepting the crank and camshafts, much of the engine internals have been replaced with new or upgraded including 101mm Nickies, Carrillo pistons, billet rods, ring packs, Stage II cylinder heads, performance valves and valve springs, high performance coil packs, IPD plenum and GT3 throttle body then race level dynamic balancing. At the time of the video, the car was running the stock tune after the rebuilt engine was reinstalled and after some minimal road miles. It was on the dyno to receive custom tune specific to the car and components. Difficulties were being experienced and ultimately tuning was unsuccessful with the aftermarket intake. With the OEM box, AFR was corrected and dyno numbers of 332.8 HP with 297 lb-ft at the rear wheel were achieved. Just providing the circumstances. Could other things have been done given more time and expense? Maybe or maybe not. However, I respect the expertise and knowledge of the builder too much not to take not take their recommendations. No disrespect to anyone. As much as I appreciate the build quality and looks of the aftermarket, for my application, the stock box seems to be providing the better performance..

Just for clarification, was further tuning necessary after the factory intake was reinstalled?

Very interesting thread. Here’s another debate I’ve always wondered for the 3.4 and 3.6 cars- running an evoms style semi open intake as pictured below (photo from another member years ago), you still retain the intake snorkel on the left and then can punch a hole out on the right side of the lid for extra airflow. (If you don’t mind taking the plunge and modifying the car)-there will be a lot of debate over this I’m sure. Myself personally- on my aero decklid, I punched a hole in the upper right area allowing for this increased airflow, and went another step by adding a larger piece of weather stripping on the filter element to provide a tighter seal directly to the decklid. On a factory or variety of aftermarket lids, I’ve heard of others creating a secondary air intake hole in this exact way. I have the associated EVOMS tuning and other general bolt on parts as noted in my signature. I can say that I do love the way my car feels, but the real debate is there any extra power gained from this modification? As stated above, the ECU’s in our vehicles can only compensate so much for increased airflow and the many other variables with Maf readings affecting timing and fueling. I’ve seen many threads years ago debating this, you have to dig back pretty deep to find some threads. I will say, with any aftermarket intake or exhaust mods- I would budget for a tune to actually attempt to optimize the parts as a whole. Just wanted to throw out another idea of intake options. Maybe the additional cut out will maximize the benefits of running an open filter element? Combine it with a good seal to the decklid, it could offer the best of both worlds (cooler air then fully unsealed element, less heat soak, more direct airflow under speed). Believe you can also duplicate this theory with a 997 x51 air box for more $$. I think some others in the 997 form have done this. Interested in others opinions

Please give me details on your car I’m loving that intake

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You are asking the right questions. How to make it work.

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Basically you�ll want to source the EVOMS V-Flow intake for our vehicles (3.4 and 3.6 are interchangeable for reference.) You can find some floating around for sale occasionally on the forms, or you can buy new. I�d call Sam Stone the owner of evoms. I�ve dealt with him and really prefer his customer service and options for our cars. Second, if you can stomach it, you can carefully dremmel out an area to create a secondary air inlet (photo of a .1 aero decklid for reference) It made me cringe doing mine but knowing my car will be mine forever, made was less painful worrying about resale etc. With the V Flow intake, you�ll want to talk to EVOMS, they were able to recommend a slightly larger seal for their air box to accommodate our deck lids better. It�s been awhile so I forget what was used for mine. This will help prevent stagnant heat soak (I would hope) while sitting at Idle. Currently out of town or I�d snag a photo of mine. Pretty simple concept much like the examples above.

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That’s what I’ve been scratching my head on- how effective really is the extra airflow I’ve added on my vehicle by doing this mod?? Do our ECU’s with the aftermarket tuning allow for it to be quantifiable real world hp gains? Theoretically you’d imagine the increased flow (while driving) directly near the open filter element (that is still somewhat sealed to the decklid, would be able to move more air volume in quicker with less heat soak) You’d absolutely want to combine this with higher flowing cats, or a catless set up to get air in and out as quickly as possible. I will say it adds another level of sound with my setup. GC, you’ve heard the car via email video- you can share the opinion from a sound perspective also. In the spring I plan to get more videos. Final point- going this further step with the open punch out and other supporting mods- would a custom dyno tune offer any additional benefits VS the big name tuners that offer files that have been used for years?

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Amen brother. Your car sounds very good. Next relatively warm day I will get a recording of mine and we can compare FVD exhausts.

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Sounds great- can�t wait to hear your setup too, looking forward to it

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Sorry for the late reply. I don't know the answer to your question. The original dyno graph should be fairly representative of "no tuning performed". The recorded AFR for stock airbox seems to be in range. "Necessary" versus '"maximized" is what it came down to for me. I elected to add the tune to realize the maximize performance of the build.

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Everything else being the same - in other words, if no changes have been made to the engine - the only value to one of these aftermarket air intake assemblies is to minimize the pressure drop in the OE air intake assembly. Since the air intake is a passive device it cannot "increase" air flow in the same way that forced induction can. All it does is to minimize the flow losses in the OE intake. Making the rash assumption that the aftermarket air intake is set up with a properly designed MAF interface I doubt that the power gain would be even 1%. The OE setup flows very well. Also note that any reduction in pressure drop provided by an aftermarket intake is only relevant at WOT because all the rest of the time the throttle butterfly is intentionally restricting the airflow. With the aftermarket intake set up with an improperly designed MAF interface I would expect to see the AFR all over the place as was shown in the initial dyno plot. This type of an intake system needs the ecu to be retuned to match the flow characteristics of the intake under consideration. A little point. Let's pretend that a car has an engine that make 300hp. Now we add an aftermarket air intake system that is advertised to make "50 more HP" without changing anything in the engine . In order to make 50 HP on top of the existing 300 HP that's the equivalent of adding about 2.3 PSI of boost. Does anyone really think that a plastic pipe can add 2.3 pounds of pressure to the airflow?

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PRF, Sheer genius in the simplicity of your explanation. ​​​​​Is it even possible to "tune" the software to properly adjust the AFR for performance gains using the air intake? If so, do we have a bore scoring problem that will eventually develop as a result?

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Excellent points made here. The large advertised intake “gains” are so far off to be realistic without forced induction, is spot on. Going back to one point you make- aftermarket intakes minimize the pressure drop vs the OE air intake assembly. The aftermarket intake likely does minimize the loss, but probably minimal gains are made, sometimes losses present dependent on application like above. Tuning is key for any change, and supporting breathing mods are a must to net anything more than a loss. Id like to share my experience with my supporting breathing mods, and open style intake for another point of view. I personally logged my car via duramtertic with Sam from EVOMS this fall. With my setup, I run a specific tune they have available, which incorporates the plenum and larger TB, high flow cats etc (it isn’t advertised on the website, but can be requested when calling) During the logging of my vehicle, all of the values requested through durametric were within excellent ranges with a variety of driving styles. We did about 30 mins of logging, consisting of medium/light load cruising, heavy wot 3rd gear redline pulls, and everything in between. We were then able to transfer all the values to a spreadsheet via durametric and review. Car was healthy in all driving styles, no lean or rich conditions and the power band felt very stout. This confirmation and one on one review with my tuner added piece of mind knowing I’m running in the right parameters with my engine. So the intake in this scenario, with the other very basic supporting mods and the tune to support it-seem to work well as a whole in my application. Going to a larger displacement build, very well wouldn’t net these same results, just like discussed above. Id assume that flow losses with this air box are minimized under the curve, when leaning into 75-100% wot. The Venturi effect this intake incorporates certainly isn’t hurting air volume or flow. The big importance I feel is having a good seal to lid, the secondary cut out for a cooler source of air (not looking at it as more airflow, but a cooler source near the filter) and still having the original source from the factory snorkel location. (Creating sort of a dual snorkel effect, like some of the x51 997 cars) I’m sure this long winded response is enough to make everyone’s head hurt, but I did want share the success of my logging an open intake/supporting mods with car. Moral of the story, match a good tune with the supporting mods you have, find a tuner who will log to at least make sure the engine is running healthy with your parts added. Then focus on weight loss, that’s been a great benefit to my car.

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great job. That�s why I liked the fvd tune because you pay for it and they will adjust it for free as you keep modifying the car. I�m going to try to find a custom dyno tunner for my car if that it�s even possible.

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Definitely keep us posted on the dyno tune, I’d be very interested to see a before and after dyno and if anything is left on the table going this route. I know a place about an hour from me does lots of German and Italian tuning on their dunks. I’ve kicked the idea around also, never pulled the trigger because the car feels so good as is.

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so the fvd is $1095 but the bonus is the free retunes. My mechanic said that the softtronic stuff was good but that requires you to send the ecu for my car since is not egas. I�ll see about the tunner and check pricing. We haven�t installed the soul headers yet. Waiting on my mechanic to finish my friends 993 so that we can drive there pick his car and drop mine. After my car is done I want to drive for a bit with the headers and then I�ll be up for whatever tune would come after. Can you check what they charge for the dyno tune on your neck of the woods. ??

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3/98- I gave the local tuner here a ring who�s dealt with NA 996s 997s, everything else German and some Italian cars and a few other brands. He does a multi day process. First day, get the baselines for the car as it came to him, 2nd and 3rd day tune for driveability/power and finish off with a nice combination in between for a drivable vehicle. He charges $1,200 for this tuning on the 996/7 platforms. The question really becomes, is the custom tune any better than what our tuners can offer? FVD is an excellent brand period, you won�t go wrong with them either. Nice choice with the soul headers, they look fantastic too.

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it sounds like those guys know what they are doing and the price is not so much out of wack. My concern with going that way would be if I get an issue with the heads and then I send them to Hoffman and then I do the high performance upgrade which based on my conversations with him will provide 3-4 percent better flow. Them I�m stuck in another custom tune scenario. Fvd would upgrade for free. Anyway, I dont know where you are at, maybe the custom tunes are more reasonable here in the Houston area. Anyway here is some Porsche ****, this headers are beautiful. This are some bad a?? Headers. I can�t wait to see what they do and how that changes the overall sound of the car.

From a dollar to dollar perspective, the FVD free retuning option is very lucrative. I’m located about 1hr from Cleveland Ohio, 1 hr from Pittsburgh PA- so I’m on the border of the two states. We have very few shops, and a couple of tuning options between the two markets- but the few I've dealt with are absolutely excellent. This tuner I spoke with seems to be pretty versed as well. Quick question, since you mentioned Hoffman’s head work, are they stating they can achieve a better 3-4% flow with our stock 3.4 or 3.6 configurations? I know it’s a no brainer when upgrading displacement via nickies during a rebuild, and also a no brainer to freshen them up while the motor is apart. Would be curious to hear more on the flow rates on the stock configured motors. I’ve seen some discussion on this but nothing in depth with tuning etc. FVD does offer some unique tuning around our cars with shrick cams etc., do they go as far to offer a more custom based tune for a head job too? I’m a big fan of the fvd products available, and think it’s a great choice for our cars. I think every time I got under my car to do any type of service, I would have to stop and admire those soul headers for a solid few minutes, piece of art

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Yes Hoffman stated that the performance option on the head repair/work improves flow on the flow bench by 3 percent. Yes we were talking about a stock 3.4 head. Another Motorsports shop that I have been talking to says the work they do on their heads makes an almost 4 percent improvement. Hoffman has a custom big valve head and that work on a 3.4 it�s like $4k. Now if go big valve to get the most benefit you have to go with different cams and that can get expensive. If you want to see the prices pm with your email and I�ll send you his two price list.This info is real recent within the last month.

Question to the smart guys that understand the inner working of software Tuning on our engines. Correct me if I am wrong on this statement. We know that bore scoring can arise from many things, one of which is the AFR. The reason is the computer will make adjustments which may send too much fuel into the cylinders given what the sensors are saying. So with that being said, from a software tuning standpoint, as the software is being tuned for optimal performance to tie-in exhaust and intake mods, can this unwittingly help to facilitate the chance of bore scoring, or other forms of engine failure on a NA engine? everything in life is a trade-off, what's the trade-off to aggressive software tuning?

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We don't mind if you do! Dave @ SOUL

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Thanks for sharing, sent a PM over too

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GC- excellent points above to consider with the on going bore scoring dilemma. From my experience, I had my engine apart last winter (I was beginning to see early signs that pointed to a rod bearing failure). After tear down, I did confirm the number 6 bearing was eventually going to meet its maker, did the full bottom end since I was intrigued to get the car back on the road for spring. (Added a new magnafluxed crank, Arp bolts, rod bearings, mains, all tensioner chains, guides, lifters variocam pads, AOS, oil cooler, all misc gaskets seals, water pump, new low temp stat, fuel injectors, fuel pump, many more items on the part list-Nearly everything but nickies. My shop and I did a through inspection for bore scoring, ovaling, and leak down test before disassembly-and found everything to be within spec for my engine in the higher 60k mileage range at the time. This is after many years, thousands of miles of running my combination of software and supporting mods. I’m glad my tuner and I logged the car and confirmed it was running safely this fall too. I do have interest in having the engine built to a stage 2 street track performer from Jake in the future, but I’m hoping it can be elective, vs out of need like this experience here. Only time and mileage will tell (but it’s easier to plan financially and patiently) knowing the day will probably come. Upon inspection through the sump, or during tear down- many of our cars may show no signs of scoring, many will— but I’d venture to bet all have some form of ovaling. Even my shop and I reached out to LN to get some necessary parts for the build- they highly recommend against any kind re ring, as there probably is some degree of ovaling with the lockasil In my scenario, the tuning and the supporting mods, likely had no ill effect on anything bore scoring ovaling related. (I’m a firm believer in the cold climate driving, poor injector spray patterns, prolonged oil intervals., that could be the leading cause) Its hard to say if that will be the general consensus as each car can have difference in displacement, difference in tunes offered, difference in driving styles, care, and time in service Also hard to say if tuning/bolt on mods had any affect on the stress of the bottom end though. (Pretty sure we have smaller oiling journals in the 3.4 cams that can lead to oil starvation and associated rod bearing failure). First owner before me was a Mobil 1 fan and it had some extended 10k intervals in its first 2 yrs of life. I’ll continue on the dt40 plan every 6 months. I think the takeaway here is, if we go further into breathing mods, head work, cams- we need to make sure the tuner offers a logging service to check the health after each change to your overall setup. The seems to eliminate some of the risk when throwing different parts combinations at the car, but it could still end in the one of many m96 failure modes our cars can suffer from. Hopefully we will continue to see more of the aftermarket supporting logging service as our cars age and we try different build combinations.

Did Fabspeed ever follow up? I've always been a little apprehensive about these aftermarket types of devises and was hoping to see a response from them. Guess they realized that Flat 6 Innovations has some solid evidence regarding the 3.8L 997 airbox and wasn't worth the time and effort.

They r willing to dyno there system against a 3.8l air box. No one has stepped foward with a car. They have also supplied their dyno charts for a 997 mk1 3.6l. I have no dog in this fight but want to remind the board that they did not abandon the thread.

Quotes source posts: 17967355, 17967863

We haven't gone anywhere, we pointed out there is clearly something else at play with the data. We provided Dyno graphs of our intake Vs. both the 996 and 997, both showing we gained power over the factory intakes. Furthermore, as DeJeeper pointed out, I offered to have any community member come in and do the test runs. Nobody has taken us up on it, so the ball is in the communities court. Historically we have been one of the most transparent vendors on RL when it comes to our gains, production, and R&D. Anyone can stop by at any time and I'll happily show them around. The same cannot be said for the majority of others.

If I was selling a complete line of bolt-on performance enhancement parts from air induction to software to exhaust systems, and they were all solid parts that worked, I would build out an incremental demonstration that starts with a stock 996 as an example, and then one by one add parts and demonstrates the performance figures and the best configurations to get the performance. By the end of the incremental sequence, everyone would be able to see the improvements made during the sequence to decide by budget what parts they wanted to start with knowing full well that they could add on more parts at a future date to continue along the performance continuum. Their products would fly off the shelf. But unfortunately, this is not how the industry works. ​​​​​​What I find extremely humorous is that if you add up all of the performance claims of various products, we would be a ble to easily take our 996s from 320 HP to 380 HP with bolt on parts. Below is an example of the typical claims. Plenum/TB. +10 Software. +10 Air Intake. +10 Headers. +10 Cats. +10 Mufflers. +10 TOTAL. 60 Can anybody confirm that they got a 60 HP bump in aggregate with these enhancements? The answer is no. 10-15 HP in aggregate is what is reasonable at best. These performance gains will come mostly from exhaust upgrades, not air intake and software on a NA 996. My beef isn't with Fabspeed. I applaud their offer and think they manufacture very high quality products. My beef is with thinking that anyone can get more than 10-15 HP out of their NA 996 by bolting on over $10,000 worth of products. Kinda silly. The only way to gain big HP in our cars is with an engine rebuild.

Quotes source post: 17967933

Looks like we were sending posts at the same time. Appreciate your offer and transparency. You are one of the "good firms" on the street.

I don’t consider 330WHP big power and that’s what the FSI engines make, that is a ridiculously, laughable low number for the cost in my opinion. Honestly with regards to the thread, I should have cut out the power numbers, they mean nothing to me. What I should have posted was just the AFR data because THAT is what I wanted to discuss, of course the impact of output with regards to AFR is a part of the conversation, it’s not the point of it. Fabspeed has made a generous offer of dyno time, I hope they get taken up on it, between what they posted and the offer they made, I consider the ball in the court of the people who say they want more.

Quotes source post: 17967933

I�m not certain where you guys are at, my car has your exhaust. I recently put your x pipe non cats, currently my mechanic has the car trying to get the headers out to put soul headers on. I live in Katy Texas, If you guys help me with traveling costs, I�ll drive there and you guys can test whatever you want on this airbox. I have the original airbox with a KN panel filter and I also have currently installed in car 3.8 s airbox. I�m extremely experienced in dyno testing as I was heavily involved in Motorsports in my career at both Conoco and Valvoline, engine dynos, specially formulated oils, etc. I�m retired now so I�m real flexible and have tested tons of aftermarket products for my cars. Let me know, I�m a phone call or email away and I will testify to the truth of the results. Luis in Texas. 3.4 throttle cable 99 carera coupe manual, 99k miles.

Wow 3/98 that’s mighty generous of you to come all the way out here for a mini Porsche vacation and get your car tuned in the process I think there are a few people closer to Pennsylvania if my car was ready getting injectors installed I’d drive there Saturday I’m only 2 hrs away and I have both the fabspeed competition intake and the stock box plus the K&N one as well plus I have their xpipe and 200 cell cats plus all the stock parts they can test it all day I have new plugs injectors and water pump installed as well

Quotes source post: 17968179

i think your name is mike. If fabspeed is open to it go for it. I�ll trust you will be honest and let us know what the findings are. I still volunteer if they want my car. I�m an engineer with a masters and an mba and for me numbers are black and white, they don�t lie.

Quotes source post: 17968179

Mike i was saying I have the car stock air box with the kn panel and also the 3.8 s airbox with the kn. Research and development is expensive, but if fabspeed is really serious about their stuff they�ll put their name out there. Testing 4, 5 cars shouldn�t be an issue to them. I tested a bunch of additives and car care stuff in my previous job, from car washes, tire shines, to complete fuel system cleaners, etc. It�s up to fabspeed now to make a public statement, while they are at it they should also address the issue that most Porsche guys think that soul products are better than fab speed.

U would also need to get a 3.8 intake up here. Fabspeed is about 20 min from phily, pa.

Quotes source post: 17968439

Luis, Road Trip!

Luis I never questioned your credentials just being a Porsche lover is enough for me i know your motivation is to get answers once and for all since I have a few of their products I was also volunteering hopefully with you not instead of you I love the design and build of their items but like anything else trust but verify everything

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gotcha, you are a pretty cool Porsche guy yourself. Fabspeed on top of all you can also test your headers against soul on my car and yes I�ll make that road trip. Anyway here are a few pictures of my exhaust manifolds, bolts broke threads were thrashed hopefully I can get my car sometime this week, it�s at my mechanic. Anyway going with my friend, the guy that it�s selling the 02 red C2, today on a little road trip going to look at the black beauty. We will get a bite to eat while we are out there somewhere. Factory AA 99 cable throttle car. Exactly the reason why a lot of guys don�t want to deal with headers more than likely24 year old bolts were there.

Luis, If you make the trip, since you enjoy food, may I suggest a few items for a menu. 1. When in Philly get a real cheesesteak, drink some Yuengling (PA brewery that is oldest in US),and see Independence Hall. 2. Drive to NY and get a couple of dozen Steamers and drink some more Yuengling. 3. Drive to the DE/MD Shore and get some steamed blue crabs smothered with Old Bay seasoning and drink more Yuengling.

Quotes source post: 17969235

That's a whole lot of drinking and driving in your recommendation.

Hah, no drinking and driving! Stay at DeJeepers and Mike's houses!

Yes I have room and a garage welcome anytime boys plus the my location is a great ferry ride into Manhattan past the Statue of Liberty and my garage is secure by smith&wesson and their cousin browning lol

He is welcome but has to bring some texas bbq. Ill grab the beer. Not much around me for fine food but Philly is only 20min away

Quotes source post: 17969484

Went to see the 99 aero lsd car with my friend. We just finished lunch. Burgers and beers. We have yuengling here in Texas, it�s distributed here by Tap (molson coors). I prefer the flight which is their light beer. Hard to beat newBelgium voodoo ranger juicy hazy ipa 🍺. 1/2 lb prime cheeseburger, chipotle Mayo, bacon jam and Gouldens spicy mustard with caramelyzed onions. Juicy hazy IPa. Only 6 cars today at cars and coffee. There�s the beer. Anyway now at wild wing cafe picking up some red dragon 🐉 and slayer spicy garlic marinade and blue cheese dip for the wings that I�m making tomorrow. Good end of a day for Porsche Saturday.

Whoever is interested please PM me, ideally, we need a fully stock 996 or 997 to test on, as mentioned in my initial post. While we are more than happy to compare other products as well, for reliable data we will need to determine a baseline before any mods are added. That being said, we hope to get that data for you all soon!

Quotes source post: 17972988

The only non stock stuff on my original set up is your exhaust. I bought the car like that , so unfortunately I don�t have the original exhaust. I do have the original cats. the original air box. the original headers. My car is a 3/98 coupe 6 spd manual cable throttle. I�ll check with a few of my friends to see if the have the original exhaust parts that I can borrow.

I have stock mufflers u can use.

Quotes source post: 17973107

it will be an honor to meet you. I�ll can go by we can go to dinner whatever have some drinks, my threat. Your pretty cool and you are definitely an awesome wrench!!! Now I just need to figure out how to pm someone 😝 🤣 .

Quotes source post: 17972988

a fellow rennlist guy has offered his mufflers that I can borrow on my way there. Just heard from my mechanic And my headers will be in tonight or tomorrow. I�m a technology dinosaur so I don�t know how to pm you. I�m an excellent subject because I know sht loads about racing, dyno experience, engine labs etc. From nascar, Hendricks Motorsports, Roush racing, to street car development Hennessy, to drag kinsella Motorsports, to pikes peak hill climbs roger mears racing, Unser racing, etc. I�m a retired tribologist, used to deal with Porsche for approvals, used to formulate motor oils all over the world. Whatever the results are I�ll post in here as they are. From my Conoco and Valvoline times I had access to dynos there is a lot of performance stuff that people sell and they are just marketing plays, no real power is gained , most times you even loose power. Thanks just let me know.

Quotes source post: 17973190

Feel free to shoot me an email if it's easier - [email removed] I completely agree with you in regards to the plague that is false performance claims in this industry. That is why I am so willing to open up our doors and bring some of you in for testing, ill make sure we record the process and document it for all of those who can't be here. This is not our first rodeo in the slightest, just check out this comparison of our 981 GT4 system versus that of a catalog ordering competitor. The truth ALWAYS comes out, and I can't wait!

Quotes source post: 17973162

Click in the user name and they u will see the tab/button to pm them.

Quotes source post: 17973034

Really interested in seeing these results. If you coordinate everything, have a safe trip up and enjoy driving your car most of all

Quotes source post: 17975605

ok so now my car will be ready for me to pick up on Monday. Dejeeper thanks for telling me how to pm someone here. Anyway we will be at my mechanics on Monday fixing something else on my friends 993, I�m going along for the ride to pick my car up. I want to drive the car for a bit before going up to fabspeed. By the way my mechanic also replaced the water pump and put in a low temp thermostat while at it. A total of 6 broken bolts on the headers. Jonh at fabspeed I�ll be contacting you via email next week. Can�t wait till vroom vroom. A total of six broken bolts. That�s why a bunch of people hesitate to do this. Good news everything has been fixed,

Quotes source post: 17926151

I too am in Australia and currently have had the patch harness made for my 996.2 C4S to work with an Emtron ECU and the VF engineering supercharger kit. Scott from Emtron is reading the ECU outputs and CANBUS data to be able to properly intergrate the Emtron. The CANBUS data is primarily so I can keep the car daily drivable, with the cruise and other functions in tact and the Tiptronic happy. I also bought a second engine harness so I can build a new one that incorporates new sensors for accurate oil temp & pressure, water temp, IAT etc. as I will also use an aftermarket OLED dash screen.

Quotes source post: 17980500

Ideally I would like to have a custom tune once all the mods are in place. I spoke with FVD and they clarified that they do the free retune but it�s only if you added FVD parts. They will off course retune with a charge. After we fixed the cat less fabspeed x pipe we cleared the memory and I did noticed a difference. Specially after getting past 4,000 rpms. I would like to see a bigger bore throttle body and aluminum intake runners gasket matched and extruded honed. On the meanwhile I�ll try to find a custom tunner in the Houston area. Before any of these, I will be contacting fabspeed to see what they want to do/test.

I’m starting to lose some respect for you guys at fabspeed my 996 competition air intake is missing the air pump relocation bracket and rods with nuts these lost by me so I went and ordered a replacement set and my box came with the wrong horseshoe bracket and no rods but I was billed for both calls to your service dept yielded a response that it was a discontinued item and no replacement is available plus I would have to pay a 25% restocking fee and return shipping my question to you is why sell me parts that don’t fit or not available???

Quotes source post: 17981171

when I bought my 3.8s airbox from a now gts owner I got, paid extra for that bracket. The airbox had been modified so we didn�t have to relocate that air pump, anyway I�ll have the car on Monday and I�ll take a picture of that bracket, I�ll sell it for cheap if that is what you need. I�ll post a pic of the bracket,

Thank you that would great since fabspeed sold me something that they know doesn’t fit

Quotes source post: 17980604

Would be interested to hear more on the aluminum intake runners. Are you referring to fitting something like the 3.8 997 S manifold, or the aluminum intake manifold that was on the X51 40th anniversary cars? Or are you referring to adding the IPD plenum with a larger bore TB? Pretty sure FVD does have a larger bore TB for the cable cars available.

Quotes source post: 17981592

Luis, last year I ordered 2 brackets from Fabspeed, one of them the one you now have from Zeshaan. I can confirm it is a real deal Fabspeed SAI bracket.

3/98 I've got two stock mufflers in perfect but used condition in Montrose.. You can have them. Only catch is I don't have the mounting hardware

@Houtx996 , if @3/98 911 coupe doesn't take you up on the mufflers, I'd be interested in them. I'd like to get some cores to send to Fister.

Quotes source posts: 17983137, 17983161

that's fine with me maybe he can take them as a loaner for whatever test you guys are cooking up and give them to you. We are all next to each other apparently. They are just sitting in the garage taking space. I went with the delete. Im not going to ship them or put them on Craigslist so we can figure out how to work this out. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them

Quotes source post: 17980500

If you could provide more information or have time to make a thread. I think it will be valuable to the community, intregrating an after market ECU while retaining stock harness capability, is gold plated information. Memebers who want modifications becoming effective, and for those members who only want durability will benifit from the best tune possible. My ECU dates back to 3/98. Please consider.

Quotes source post: 17983173

Agree with this, no one in our little M96 world seems brave enough to tinker with aftermarket EFI. Run whatever intake (highest flowing) you want cause you don't need a MAF throwing the fueling out of wack because its unhappy in a non factory location, calibrate for the fuel (E85 maybe) / injectors you want to run, run whatever engine mounts you want because knock calibration can be configured to setup, no lift shift, alter rev limits, 2 step launch control, account for a change to forced induction, traction control... I could go on but hopefully (probably not) the point is made - a modern aftermarket EFI is pretty powerful.

Quotes source post: 17983228

The JDM guys have had this option for over a decade. Usually forced induction. Hard to believe their is nothing off the shelf for Porsche a premium enthuiast brand. I would love an after market ECU integrating into the stock harness. Hard part tuning on top of stock needs ECU tuning even in NA..

Quotes source post: 17982636

Yes I�ll be talking to my mechanic on Monday trying for him to become an FVD dealer. Fvd bores the throttle and does it on an exchange basis the cost is less than $500. Do you know if the parts that you mentioned the x51 intake or the Carrera s manifold fit properly on this engine?? I would think it would be easier to find the Carrera s manifold. I already read long time ago the thread about ipd, so all kinds of opinions about if it works or not. From personal experience with dyno testing the bore out throttles add power. We did 5 vw corrados SLC with eip tuning throttles and always we got between 4-5 hp. Since my car was somehow modified and I�m the 4th owner at the beginning I didn�t had a clue of what modifications where done. Anyway, my mechanic will be measuring the tb diameter to make sure one of the previous owners didn�t put in an fvd bored out throttle, I�m praying that one of them already did . 🤣 😝

Quotes source post: 17983169

Squirrel 🐿, I�ll use them for whatever test and then bring them back to you. I can�t believe you want to fister them, those pancakes are heavy as hell. I�m pretty sure someone that races our engines knows how to piggy back a different ecu to do a lot better than our old existing units. Maybe the guy in Australia that�s working with Emtron could check it out. His car is a .2 so egas. We lonely 99s are the only ones on cable. Depending how all this turns out with fabspeed, I may just rent a Uhaul and tow my car with the f150 and make some kind of longer trip out of it.

Quotes source post: 17983506

one of you dm me with how you want to pick them up...they are yours now

Quotes source post: 17983907

as soon as I establish the testing protocol with fab speed I�ll message you.!

Quotes source post: 17983228

Not only is there not an aftermarket system, but I don't see an DIY tuning software either like HP Tuners. I have an LS in another car and I can fully tune the car using HP Tuners.

Quotes source post: 17984608

In... maybe 2006 or 7 I was playing around with Evo ECU's using ECUFlash, free open source SW, you paid for the cable, kind of similar to dura. Unlike Dura, the software was actually immensely useful and enabled tuning a number of maps as well as data logging. I haven't stayed remotely up to date on that stuff and eventually my car went over to an Autronic ECU but it is interesting that popular platforms for tuning and modifying, like the 4G63 or LS based power plants have had ECU tuning as a critical part of the process and the M96 has... very, very little and what there is consists primarily of off the shelf tunes.

Agreed. Every time someone asks questions on more advanced tuning solutions, the providers dive into their bunkers and we hear crickets. I suspect the reason is that there are no meaningful advanced solutions.

Quotes source post: 17967943

I don't know that i got 60hp from my FSI 4.0L engine. But I did get awesome tip in response/acceleration, nice torque and a smooth powerband that loves to Rev easily to 7k rpm. The point is, bolt ons are never cumulative. Some gain nothing, some lose hp and some trade torque for peak hp. I stopped doing bolt ons (except for a Paxton supercharger on my old mustang cuz that defo worked) to my cars. IMO, just not worth the money.

Quotes source post: 17984962

Totally understand and appreciate evaluating cost / reward when looking at what mods are worth it, how much does an FSI 4.0 set one back again for 330 WHP ?

Quotes source post: 17984975

It wasn't cheap but quality never is. Hapiness and peace of mind is priceless.

My 3.4 > 3.8l stage II tp gained 60 whp. (245 > 306 whp per dyno) in addition to comparable gains in torque including a much wider band. That was on the standard high test 93 octane tune. There is probably a few more hp/torque gains in the �aggressive 93 pump gas� tune, and there�s also a race gas tune (all in the handheld tuner furnished by FSI as part of their engine build program). ** I think the main reason for the lack of an aftermarket tune availability is the fact that these were fairly expensive cars when new - the market was basically older/wealthier business men types - not fast & furious racer types. As far as real race guys, they build what they need� they�re not worried about buying off the shelf �tunes�� Now that the prices are within reach of basically everyone (who knows), more people want to mod/tune the engines - but they don�t want to blow them up either because a new one costs $20-$30k�*** Not adjusted for inflation *** (my engine would be over $30k now� time flies & so do prices)

Quotes source post: 17984975

I have a 3.4, so last time I spoke with them going to a 3.8 was going to be close to $32k and a schedule time wasn�t available until second half of 2023. That�s not possible now. There are other possibilities. My mechanic is building a custom 4.0. He actually wants squirrel to get his latter on this year so they can compare them. I understand all the hype bs about bolt ons but they can work. I�m personally trying to do unorthodox things. One thing that I may test is to use 997.1 Carrera S metal intake runners. I think they�ll work, I wish someone has tried this and comment here. Anyway these intake runners look better than the plastic ones.

3/98 I’m impressed by your direction choice please keep us informed on your progression

Quotes source post: 17985268

Those intake Plenums do look great, but I don�t think they�ll get you any power to speak of�I think if you look at it from a HP/Torque per $ you�ll be way in the red. If you�re looking at it from a purely aesthetic perspective it�s a home run! 👍

Performance gains come from 1. a better free flowing exhaust system. ~10-15 HP 2. Software turning. ~0-2 HP 3. Intake. ~0 HP Approximately 100 lbs in weight savings come from 1. A lighter exhaust system, see above. ~25-30 lbs 2. Racing seats versus stock. ~30-35 lbs 3. Aftermarket brake kit with 2 piece floating hats. ~20-25 lbs. Floating hats are key to saving weight. 4. Eliminate rear seats. ~15-18 Lbs Meaningful boost in HP and TQ only comes from a rebuild. Been there, done that, all except the rebuild. But it coming. Add/Edit: additional weight savings can come from moving to an RPM carbon fiber ducktail. ~15 lbs. Chunks posted the data on his thread. And yes, more carbon fiber for the front lid, roof and doors. Be advised that you will need a full cage if you go with carbon fiber doors, and make sure you have plenty of fire extinguisher protection in your car because when ignited, carbon fiber goes up in flames very quickly and burns hot and fast. Jason is doing an incredible build with carbon fiber and he has outlined weight savings which are huge.

Quotes source post: 17985636

little things can make huge improvements. No spare tire. Bigger throttle body gasket matched with dremmel tool. Intake runners, gasket matched extruded hone. Not many people are going to do what I�m doing.

Quotes source post: 17985759

I am cheering for you. But don't think for a minute that this stuff hasn't been tried over the past 24 years. There is a reason why it's not actively discussed.

Quotes source post: 17985636

While this is a popular narrative - I do not believe it to be true other than the truth it has been made because of what the engine builders HERE will tell you. What can an engine builder do to influence HP ? From hardware perspective: Compression Ratio Upper end airflow - cams and heads, valves Lightweight internals and balancing - pistons, rods, crank, valve train From a bolt on perspective: Intake - air and manifold, throttle body sizing Exhaust - manifold and exhaust systems Tuning of ancillaries for lowest drag without sacrificing function / reliability And to top it off, hopefully EFI calibration. Now of those perspectives, the hardware alone is specific to what would be most easily addressed during a full rebuild, but even then, items like cams and valve train can be addressed discretely. So, many of the improvements that can be made during a rebuild can also be done discretely, why don't people do them, why does the narrative that a rebuild alone is the sole path to higher HP M96 persist - cost and lack of owner understanding as to how engines work. My opinion. A FSI 4.0 THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR engine makes 330 HP. So, if we were to use that as a benchmark, what would a stock bottom end M96 with a stock port cylinder head make with: An optimized intake, TB, intake manifold Aftermarket cams Port matched long tube headers Undersize pulleys LW Flywheel Motec ECU calibrated on a steady state dyno by a PROFESSIONAL Now, a DIY'r could easily add pulling the heads and sending them for a port / polish, valve job and go oversize valves as well, all done without touching the bottom end. What would that setup make for power ? How close could it get to the 35K 330HP engine ? Now the FSI sycophants will come screaming...HEY... what about the reliability, the drivability, the silky smooth power delivery.. To that I have 2 things to say: 1. When you spend $30K on an engine, you are pre-disposed to it's greatness, from what you have read, what convinced you to do it in the first place AND by what you have invested. 2. I am responding specifically to a comment regarding enhancing the OUTPUT of an M96. None of what I am saying should be viewed as disparaging to your engine builder of choice, what I am saying is the idea that the power levels achieved by an engine rebuild are ONLY possible through a rebuild are I think, yet to be documented here. The fact is, I can't find anyone that has really tried.

Quotes source post: 17985762

I don�t know what other people do. How many people here had ther cars at 160 mph. About 16 hours after I bought the car I took it there. I probably have bigger blls than most people here. In 1994 I test drove a Hennessy Vennon viper 1000 to almost 200 mph, not many people have the guts to push cars to this limits. and yes that was 26 years ago. believe me if you are selling a sports car to me you don�t want to be in the passenger seat.

I save my triple digit speeds for the racetrack. I don't want to be the one who runs down some bystander or causes a hundred car pileup.

Quotes source post: 17985769

Jason, I appreciate your thoughts, and hope that I am proven wrong. I have been searching for the holy grail of bolt on solutions for 20 years and haven't found it. Closest too it is the X51 package, but that requires internal modifications. My biggest disappointment is that the software industry can't put it over the goal line. Hopefully all the the questions and pushing you are doing, coupled with my constant banter and persistence, we can help to change the outcome. My conclusion after 20 years of questioning and pushing is that the only answer to meaningful HP and TQ increase is to bore out the cylinders and modify all aspects of the engine. I have no issue with this, love my engine as is, love the car as is, performance in our cars is strong to begin with, but I will eventually rebuild it for more output. But I am not yet in an hurry due to wanting to understand rebuild options, configurations and performance/durability trade-offs. But if some enterprising engineer comes out with external bolt-on solutions that can further integrate the parts into more efficient and effective performance, I am all in. Keep pushing man. Got a lot of respect for what you are looking to do and have done.

Quotes source post: 17985781

Never had mine over 145 and I was at the racetrack with full safety equipment in the car with a fire suit. Nobody and I mean nobody should attempt to drive at speeds like that unless it's on a track with safety equipment and without unsuspecting people around. Luis, I love yah man, but that isn't having big *****, it's having a screw loose.

The fact of the matter is - you need to be invested and willing to do what others don't, this is not bolt on an air filter and a tune we are talking about. It's a fundamental rethinking of the components in your stock engine that contribute to making power and addressing each of them to optimally work with each other. If a stock 3.6 makes 260-270WHP - I do not think from a bench racing perspective with the modifications I outline above a jump of 30-40WHP bringing output to around 300WHP is overly optimistic. I would LOVE to really play with a stock bottom end M96 - Here's what I would do: Motec M150 ECU With a custom harness. I would run wideband lambda in both banks and EGT in all 6 holes. Upgrade fuel system to run on E85 Individual throttle bodies, port matched - https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-...kit-ckpe04-kit R35 Coils Schrick Cams The lightest valvetrain I could find Port match long tube headers Underdrive pulleys LW Flywheel and a 6in clutch Dry sump No AOS, No emissions I thinks that's about it...

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​​​​​​I like how you are thinking.

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I will admit to not having a lot of experience with modifying EFI engines, especially in NA applications. However, one thing to keep in mind is that you can make modifications that only add a couple HP peak or maybe even loose you a couple, but improve your power band with increased numbers lower in the power band, so peak HP difference doesn't always tell you everything you want to know. I know this is very true of intake manifolds on carbureted V8s. Ultimately, the only real way to find out the true effects these mods are having would be a lot of dyno runs at intermediate steps of modification, and hopefully some of the folks here who are making mods will post up some dyno sheets when they are done.

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That sounds like a fun build! I say go for it!

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Absolutely! What typically has happens with these mods is that the power moves up the powerband to mid and higher rpm. Not necessarily a problem on the street, but on the track it will adjust how you handle specific shifts and turns. In reality, if you want a faster car without messing with HP on the track, you will need a couple of different gear boxes depending on the track. I looked into it years ago but couldn't bring myself to swallow the price, not to mention service costs of changing the boxes since I am not an adequate wrencher.

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My target power level is MIN 450 WHP at 2900LBS with me in it. Not getting there with an NA M96.

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I don�t know where you live, but if you drive down I 10 here in Texas long enough you will see a lambo doing 200. I already did the track life with my 695 whp 2004 vw r32 HPA twin turbo, that�s not what I�m looking for. That car was a brick in front of the wind.!

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yes I know there is no replacement for displacement, but I�ll research whatever is available to make it as fast as possible. I�ll save that $32k for another car. Also, I�ll keep it drivable. Like the 1300 miles I drove here from Wisconsin with no issues, that�s a super important part of any built drivability.

Just buy one of this.I seen a few driving down I10, I go supersonic then I see them spewing flames 🔥 out of their exhaust going ballistic, These cars are highway monsters. Only $300k plus taxes and dealer reconditioning fee of $1900. Look at the exhausts on this thing. This as??? Still look great, sold yesterday.

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I took my STi to an indicated 140 one morning on the E/W PA Turnpike. Perfectly straight section of road, no other cars in sight in any direction. The frameless windows started lifting out from the rubber seals and making one heck of a racket! So I backed off. I did not put anyone but myself in harm's way. I did the run from Houston to San Antonio, is that I-10? Speed limit was 75 at the time and nobody was stopping there. Crazy fast, especially in a rental.

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been 115 on my f150. Easy Peary 125 on the p car. When I was doing the need for speed , 150 was as common as a Coca Cola. Fastest I had my p car was 160, 3 am in the morning, once i get all the mods done I�m taking it to the limit, whatever that is.

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^^^That looks like it�s going to cost a pretty penny� Have you priced it? In addition, would you be doing the work yourself? If not what�s the labor cost? It looks like it could be an expensive experiment that yields questionable results (as opposed to a builder that�s done several/dozens/hundreds of them). This is what informed my decision to have someone with experience (FSI) build my engine. I could have done it myself, (of course farming out the machine work) but I thought going in with no previous experience with the M96 (besides cam tensioners, clutch, water pump, IMS SOLUTION etc.) there was too much room for questionable results considering the amount of $ being spent. I had already spent nearly $5k in parts a year prior and the engine was developing a tick/tapping that turned out to be bore scoring and a slipped cylinder sleeve� The $$$ for the builder was well spent 😃👍

@dporto That list full of gucci stuff is MY version of an FSI engine as in, its put together absent of cost implications and with the understanding that if measured against cost by someone none the wiser, the output is likely to look pretty paltry. But it has intangible benefits that are special to me. You picked well and are happy, and I'm happy for you. For me, as to the question of is the only path to a 300-330WHP in an M96 through a long block rebuild, as I said - my opinion is, no. Aftermarket ECU - properly calibrated Cams Air Intake Plenum TB Long tube headers No cats LW Pulley and FW I think would have a fighting chance and if done on a budget, would come in WELL under half the price of a 30K rebuild.

I like to see the 4.0 he is building. Apparently he has a pretty good machine shop that he�s using. Anyway, I�ll see how my car runs tomorrow and then go from there. To give you guys a clue, I did the quarter mile here in Sealy Texas in 2010 at 10.01. Today a $300k turbo S has a quarter mile time of 10.1, to 10.2. I only had $56k on my car.

I'll def look to start a thread on what I am getting done with the car. So far I have an IPE exhuast (including extractors, 200cell cats and vaiable exhaust), 997 3.8Lt airbox with BME filter, 82,, GT3 throttle body while the VF Engineering supercharger goes on shortly Re: the 997 intakre manifold, I saw one recently on Flea-Bay however I managed to get a complete 996 GT3 intake manifold to getting that cleaned up and Cerakoted to go on shortly when the tiptronic comes out to get re-built.

I'm glad to see this thread getting so much traction. It has always surprised me at how limited the aftermarket is for M96 motors and how few parts there are that actually increase the motor's output. I can only think of two reasons for this: 1. The 996 is the "forgotten" 911 and there was never much demand to develop parts to increase power. People who wanted "cheap" power bought a turbo and no one else wanted to foot the bill for developing different intake manifolds, tunes, unique exhaust configurations, etc. 2. Porsche optimized the motor almost perfectly from the factory and there is not much else that can be done to improve it. I find #2 very unlikely. Modern GT3s and GT4s are routinely picking up significant power gains from Dundon parts (plenums, exhausts, tunes) and those are Porsche's highest-performing models. If they're leaving that much power on the table in their halo cars why should the M96 be so specially optimized? I realize that some power gains necessarily involve compromises: bolt an M50 manifold and a tune on an S52 and you dramatically increase the top end at the expense of a small, but measurable, decrease in low end. Throw an intake on the same motor and suddenly your induction is a lot louder; some people don't like that, some people do. I'd love to see what is possible when people start experimenting with the M96 in a similar way...the biggest problem is that you can rebuild an S52 for a few thousand dollars and an M96 costs 3-6 times that for some reason.

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Wiggle, what are your next steps?

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Not much at the moment. I'm still catching up on some maintenance items and aesthetics before I do any digging into the motor. High flow cats and a (proven) intake may be the only exception. My long term plans involve a 3.4 -> 3.8 conversion but at the moment I'm just here living vicariously through others and complaining about things

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Good luck with the maintenance and items. I am going thru the same exercise replacing 5-10 year old parts. Exhaust system will definately help you on many fronts, sound, weight and performance.

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3/98- sorry I�ve been busy the last few days wanted to respond to your original post regarding the manifolds. I would be interested to see what could be there. The X51 style (996 manifolds) and the (997 Carrera S) manifolds do appear to be the same as far as I know? However the X51 cars do have different cams with more aggressive lift, different tuning (as others have mentioned). Now I�d be curious to see some before and after dynos on your car with the ported TB, IPD plenum and the 997 S manifold (maybe there can be something there we are all missing, coupled with a custom Dyno tune) On our 3.4 cars, we also have to take into consideration we don�t have the variocam + like the 02 and on cars. The manifold along with the entire X51 package available in the US was obviously designed around the updated 3.6 engines. I would however be curious to see if someone could source the X51 manifold that was available on the 996.1 3.4 cars in Europe (don�t know how different that manifold is 3.4 vs 3.6 vs 3.8) The 3.4 manifold could also be developed around the different cams tune, etc. offered in that model too. Worst case, you could always source the 997 manifolds from ebay and do some testing. If there is no gain- the look great (as others have said) If there is any kind of net loss across the curve- relist them and on to the next buyer!

2 Questions... We found out that 996 short blocks were still available through the Porsche Dealer network which was a pleasant surprise. Let's look for a few more. 1. Has anybody explored if the oem X51 Package is available for purchase today? It was years ago. 2. ​​​​​​Many of you are describing the components to FVDs Tuning Kit 996 3.4 and 3.6 Level 3 packages with Schrick sport cam, FVD headers and cats (but not mufflers which are extra $1,600), as well as FVD software as the major components. I remember when FVD released this package as an X51 alternative back in the mid 2000s. It was expensive then at ~$9,000 ($3,000 sport cam + $1,000 software + $6,000 for headers, cats and various other parts). Has anybody explored this lately? At the time, they were advertising 30 HP/TQ gains, which was 10 more than than the X51 package, due to using a better than oem exhaust system upgrade. The math for the gains add up due to the gain from the cams. 10-15 from cams. 10-15 from exhaust and software. Obviously, this Tuning kit does nothing to move the cylinders to nickies, nor addresses other areas that a rebuild would address. But it is runs parallel with many of the ideas being tossed around on this thread. https://www.fvd.net/us-en/FVD9961002...-tq-sport.html

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Excellent post GC. Here�s my take on the above, and how I�d go about this build. I would think the main components here to get from FVD at the very least- would be to purchase the shrick cams, then add a 200 cell catted or catless x pipe or crossovers of your choice. Then go with an ipd plenum, GT3 TB (for e gas cars)/ported TB and standard plenum for throttle cable cars. At this point, it may also not hurt to try and incorporate an X51 manifold?? The jury is out on that one. Also, throw in a pair of equal length manifolds from one of the reputable manufacturers. Finalize and tie it all together with the FVD tune, or get it on the Dyno. The big thing here- is I don�t necessarily think it would matter which exhaust combo you do- even if it wasn�t FVD- but still was a free flowing setup. I personally would opt for the FVD parts here since they are excellent quality. I second that I�d like to know if anyone else is going this far with this package and running the setup on their cars to date? The strick cams would be the final step to tie this all together Also- at this point- would it make sense to send the heads to Hoffman for a rework and some porting (highly likely)

One of these days I plan on giving FVD a call to discuss their 3 Level Programs to see what's changed since 2006 when I had a conversation with them and bought their exhaust system for my 996. Curious as to their thoughts on air intake as well. FVD has always been a straight shooter. Add/Edit: Just a thought, adding an exhaust, software, plenum and throttle body are pretty simple and straightforward. None of these will do any harm or be irreversible to the engine. Porting and cams are a different story. These very points are why I haven't done anything else to my engine other than bolt on parts. My goal was always to have the engine rebuilt comprehensively "with certainty" for durability and power increases someday in the future. But the X51 package if still available, or an FVD Level 3 package for some may be all they want.

As of right now. Car last night turned 99k miles. Runs extremely well doesn�t burned any oil and it was extremely happy doing 150 last night. Fab speed exhaust, fabspeed cat less x pipe, soul headers. The throttle body has been bored out we assume fvd. 3.8s carrera airbox. Low temp thermostat. To put the 3.8s intake runners I was quoted a high number, so I�m not going to try to do that until it�s time for another clutch, rear main, IMs. I read herd many things about the ipd plenum so I�m passing on that at this moment. After I drive the car a few weeks, I am going to do either a custom tune or fvd. FVDS is $1100. Six of my header bolts broke so I�m not too sure that I want to do a testing protocol get a bunch of these to break again and then what??? I definitely love the way total exhaust system is set up and it�s not obnoxious until you really get on it, it doesn�t drone at all cruising at 65 mph.

New/Fresh header bolts are not going to break if you take them out� 🤔🤣

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I believe 4 of the holes had to be retapped, anyway as I said I�ll be contacting John at fabspeed. Now that I finally got the car back.

Thanks for update 3/98- keep us posted after you talk to John at Fabspeed, very interested to see some real world testing.

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So?

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I kept on doing research and there are more available possibilities for ecu tunes for the 99 coupe with cable throttles. I knew about softronic but did not wanted to send the ecu to them. FVD is well know and that comes with a obd port flasher. Apparently there is a tuning arm of VF engineering is called Hex tuning their price tag is almost $1,000. Then there is a company call unitronic that does the same, they use dealers and the cost for their tune is once again $1,000. Someone I recognized from my hot vws days is APR and yes they also offer a tune for my car, this is $500 and any new tweaks releases will be reflashed to you for free. Now here you have to go to one of their installers it seems like a cost efficient option. I have seen the apr facilities and they are pretty impressives, 6 to 8 dynos. I also found a shop here in Houston with state of the art dynos that I need to investigate. Don�t know about you guys but I told myself I wasn�t going to modify this car and I�m back to my fast and the furious days. I�m even looking at the weight of the tires that I�m fixing to install. Surprisingly fab speed doesn�t tune the cable throttle car, I�ll be discussing that with John. We know that FSI tuned these cars but I guess the only way to get that is with a rebuilt engine and I�m not there yet. Car just past 99k miles, 8k of them in my hands. I get to drive again today. Fill it up with shell v power 93 and new front tires. Unitronic tune.

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Unless they haven�t updated their website fabspeed can�t tune the cable throttle 99 coupe. Anyway I just sent an email to John to get back with me. Here are a few pics of the bracket that I believe you where looking for, I sent you a pm. Cheers bro.

Fabspeed may be able to recommend software for the cable 996s that can optimize the integration of the Fabspeed exhaust with ipd/tb/intake. Be a good exercise to find out.

Luis, regarding FSI and "software tuning" I believe that the vast majority of 996 engine rebuild levels use the stock Oem "tune". Don't know if the "R" has a customized tune. I believe so, but may certainly be wrong. Maybe B3Freak can comment if he sees this.

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I would definitely would like to know Jakes position on the ipd plenum. Since the throttle has been bored out , I would think that the plenum would help, but I�m not 100 sure. I know of couple of shops that prep them to race so I am going to reach out to them to see what position they take on that. The issue with the plenum is that there are quite a bit of people that have a negative opinion on that. Completely different story when you are talking about x pipe, headers, exhaust.

My FSI build (3.8l stage II track performer) came with a handheld tuner with several tunes in it�

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yeah, Tex squirrel is getting his done 4.0 by FSI and he told me about the tunes. You know jakes position on the plenum?? Thanks

3/98 thanks I replied with my cell# hard to judge if it will work fabspeed doesn’t even have one to send me a pic of it i would have to try it to see if it fits if you send it to me I will send you via PayPal shipping both ways if it doesn’t work thanks again Mike

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Mike send me a pm with your mailing address. I�ll send it to you via us mail 3 day with insurance and whatever, I believe this is just like $8. Anyway we will work the details latter. According to Tex squirrel 🐿, this one is supposed to be the real deal. I emailed John at fabspeed today, let�s see what I get back from him. Cheers 🍻.

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He likes the IPD plenum with the GT throttle body, but the car needs a tune.

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What works on a F6I 3.8 or 4.0 doesn�t necessarily work on anyone else�s 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, or 4.0. Jake does magic on many parts of the M9x that others can�t or won�t duplicate. I imagine a 3.6 or larger can take better advantage of an IPD plenum and GT3 TB with some tuning. But right out of the box I wouldn�t expect huge gains.

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I�ll definitely will be doing a tune so I already kind of sort of have that one figured out. Searching for the plenum the best pricing i could do is to order it from Pelican, since I have never ordered any from them they will give me the PCA member first time order 10 percent discount. If anyone here knows how to obtain it at a better price please let me know. Squirrel 🐿 do you know anyone here that does any custom tuning on these cars?? Based on what Fabspeed had previously stated, I�ll allow some time before doing the tune because they wanted to test a stock car.

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Yes, I do know Jake�s position on the IPD Plenum/GT3 throttle body combo, as I discussed it with him personally (and Judd as well) not on the forum. Jake�s/FSI�s position on this as well as many other �bolt on performance items� are usually/almost always nuanced as these parts interact with other parts/processes of the engine (unless it�s clearly a snake oil type product or makes clearly outrageous claims). So, the bottom line is that there is no cut and dried answer - unless you�re talking about a bone stock motor running a bone stock tune, in which case you�ll most likely see little to no effect in the way of power gains.

I don't know who might tune a 1999. I got my "Competition" IPD plenum from Pelican Parts using the same annual PCA 10% off. I found a cheaper BOSCH 997 GT3 throttle body from PartsGeeks.

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Jake told me the IPD plenum and GT3 throttle body were not worth the expense on an early 1999 C2. Maybe things have changed in 3 years but I doubt it.

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Jake doesn�t do �magic� per se�� (I know you�re using a figure of speech�). What he has is an intimate understanding of the M96 platform - both its strengths and weaknesses. This allows him to exploit its strengths (the heads come to mind) and fix/strengthen its weaknesses (cylinders, pistons, IMSB, chains etc). He�s developed and refined both parts and processes to improve the platform for close to 2 decades now. His reputation is well earned

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my original throttle body was bored to a larger size no gt3 throttle. Unless it was done by a custom shop, this is probably the work of fvd. The car will be getting a tune anyway. The exhaust side of the equation is as good as it is going to get, if I need head work done, I�ll spend the extra money and get another 3-4 percent flow with Hoffman doing the work. So if I can get the plenum, dremmel it to gasket match with the throttle to flow better and because it is aluminum it�ll run cooler than the plastic piece. This is just old school thinkering with the car. My luck will be that it will blow right after I get all of this done. This will definitely be cheaper than almost the $200k decrease in account balance of my retirement accounts over the last few weeks. Strategy is for oil to go pass $100 get COP to increase , continue to sell some then buy some VOO at a lot cheaper price.

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Correct, magic would be too easy. Intimate understanding take a LOT more work. More than most people will spend on any 1 thing in their life. I can't wait for my engine to be completed later this year.

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that will be pretty cool. Last time I spent $30k on a car upgrade I got 695whp on an awd car that would do 10.01 seconds on a quarter mile and could be driven every day. Honestly that r32 was extremely fast but I enjoy my 996.1 better, god bless. Anyway people for your enjoyment, 10 hour Texas slow roasted chili. $5 dozen of Krispy Kreme glazed donuts. Life is good, Texas 10 hour chili, I had a chili pie for breakfast, latter on chili dogs, chili Burgers, chili with corn bread, a little spicy kind of five alarm can�t guarantee what is coming out at the end. 6 AM in the morning fresh out of the machine 12 Krispy Kreme glazed original donuts, can�t resist that $5 special.

May the good Lord have mercy on your colon. Bon appetite! Hope you keep matches in the bathroom.

Your heart and azz must be screaming for your 911 LOL

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I�m mailing it to you, hopefully it works then we can figure out what we do. Unfortunately is going to be raining all day tomorrow and I am probably not going to make it to cars and coffee. I�ll guess I�ll eat more chilli. Polish sausage, Mayo, a slice of Swiss cheese, some gouldens spicy mustard and chili on top. Wash that down with a Juicy hazy ipa., rinse and repeat,

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guys I have a call scheduled with John Sutor at fabspeed tomorrow. I have already spoken with a few guys to see what they want to see tested. I can almost take my car back to stock, but my tb has been enlarged, either a custom job or the FVD. Anyway anything that you guys want to see, test with them let me know. We may need to have 3 different cars. 99 cable throttle. 2000-2001 3.4 e gas and then 2002-2005 3.6 egas. Anyway just reply to the thread or pm the call is scheduled for tomorrow at noon est. wish you all a great day.

Definitely would be curious to see all (3) models above, including the e gas 3.4 and 3.6, along with your car- if people can get them there too. 1. It would definitely be interesting to see bone stock dyno graphs of the above models, to have a look at the entire curve as a baseline on their dyno on that specific day. 2. Flash on a basic stage 1 fabspeed tune with no bolt ons-dyno 3. Flash back to stock file, then do the below in progression to see how an untuned car responds to the mods, with each bolt on added step by step, dyno to dyno 4. Start with a stock filter stock box vs an aftermarket intake (likely fabspeed since you’re at their facility) and it would be great to see a 3.8 box too-dyno 5. Move on next to the IPD plenum ported throttle body/ GT3 TB for the E gas cars.- dyno 6. Follow with catless vs 200 cell cats (x pipe combos, crossovers), free flowing mufflers-dyno 7. Add Equal length, fabspeed or another brand of quality headers-dyno 8. Then finally, have fabspeed apply their specific full bolt on tune? to the e gas cars to see if all the bolt ons added above, show a nice gain in conjunction with the software. (Maybe they can tune the drive by wire car in house?) I think many of us will find it beneficial to see what we can gain under the curve for real world drivability vs peak numbers. I’m hoping that fabspeed may have some of bolt on parts above that have been used for R&D and can be bolted on and removed, to allow each of the 3 test vehicles to be shown with each combination equally. Each vehicle would see a decent amount of dyno runs, and it would be very kind of fabspeed to lend their time and dyno to do so. While some dyno days have been done in the past and posted on RL, I think this would be the most cumulative, thorough way to show the value in the bolt on parts. If all perform as described, it would be an excellent marketing tool for the aftermarket to the 996 community.

Luis, got you message on the other thread on testing my car at Fabspeed. Figured I would respond here. While I would love too, it really wouldn't make any sense ​​​​​​ to use my 996.2 on the Fabspeed dyno. My car is far from stock with IPD Comp plenum and GT3 throttle body, Revo software and FVD 200 cell cats and FVD sport mufflers. I already went thru the dyno process years ago when I added the IPD/TB to test and see if there were any gains. I already had on the FVD cats and muffler as well as the tuneable Revo software. The dyno showed that after adding the IPD/TB, I lost power. My shop then had to work on the Tuning to get it back to even. They were unable to get any meaningful power gains. The recommendation was to go back to the stock plenum and TB of which I still have the parts sitting on the shelf in case I decide too. But I liked the additional sound. Don't really think it was worth $1,000. But I kept it anyways. The dyno findings my shop found on the IPD/TB are really no different than what everybody finds which is no improvement with our 3.4 and 3.6 NA engines including tuning. The IPD/TB looks great, sounds great and is definately a game changer for turbo cars. But a non-event with our NA engines. But maybe, Fabspeed will show you how to get power out of their carbon intake, coupled with the IPD/TB, full exhaust system and software. I hope they do. Fabspeed makes high quality products and for them to volunteer their dyno speaks volumes of their products and integrity. As I promised a few posts ago, I spoke to FVD Brombacher last week which just like Fabspeed, I have a lot of respect for due to FVDs long-standing racing history and solutions. Now I am dating myself, but years ago (2006) when I put on the FVD 200 cell cats and sports mufflers, they suggested that I stick with the stock headers because no-one at that time had perfected aftermarket headers for our cars. So thats what I did and my exhaust has worked well. A few years ago, FVD teamed up with M&M which manufactures the exhausts for Porsche Racing to develop a set of equal length headers for our engines that are of wider circumference as well as ported and matched to our engines. According to FVD, due to the design, we will gain significant low end torque in our powerband, which is very difficult to do. In addition, because these headers "breathe" better, they are better able to work with the IPD/TB to add some incremental power. The FVD software helps to pull it all together. I suspect, other software can do the same. FVD recommends using the stock airbox with a BMC or KN air filter. What FVD also told me is that the trend in Germany due to the strict environmental laws, is not to bore out the cylinders for more power, but instead to upgrade the cams, improve the porting of the heads, and obviously have a better free flowing exhaust system from headers, to cats, to mufflers. They mentioned that very few run 100 cell cats and that it's mainly 200 cel on the track due to emissions. So what this means is if you do the exhaust, IPD/TB, software, heads, cams, on a 3.6 you may be looking at the possibility of 340-355 Hp. Most of the gains will come from exhaust, cams and heads. The software is essential to tieing everything together, but is not necessarily where the gains come from by itself. Importantly, we all know that to get our engines to 400-420 HP, we have to take it above 4.0 by boring it out. With this comes the proper heads, cams, exhaust, intakes, software etc. To get it all to work together for maximum durability and performance. Hope this info helps in the conversation and Fabspeed testing as you guys plan out your sequence.

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Thanks a bunch. I just need fabspeed to answer the call, they already screw up yesterday on the call yesterday, they keep on doing this, they�ll sell crap to their mothers

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yes I bought the car with their exhaust and Tex squirrel 🐿 sold me their catless x pipe at half price. Anyway everything I have heard at cars and coffees people like soul products better even if they are higher priced. My brother a surgeon in Tampa knows the owner of soul , based on everything I heard saw till now at close to the same price I�m buying soul instead of fab speed.

Yeah they sent parts that didn’t work or are NLA and made me pay return shipping and a 15% restocking fee I’m definitely DONE with them

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i honestly tried to do something with fabspeed. Well after dealing with many people with many countries all over the world these guys are clowns. You do whatever you want, I have not directly purchased any product from them, but I would not. My car came with their exhaust and I bought Tex squirrel 🐿 used catless x pipes. I can�t complaint I like both but good luck getting a hold of them if you have any kind of issue. For reference here is a photo of a email between myself and John Sutor at fabspeed . We were scheduled to talk yesterday at noon est, no communication so far. As someone that dealt internationally with many different people and countries. If you cannot keep your commitments you are not worth my time. Anyway I have a real good friend that actually sells to soul, also my brother a surgeon knows the owner maybe we could test their stuff. I�ll see if I can make any progress there.

It seams like fabspeed has been successful at dodging this is the reason Soul has been a success the problem is they got too big and or forgotten the people who promoted their products before he had serious competition plus our cars are not the hot cover cars anymore

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GC- this is an excellent response viewing the different build routes to take, to get to different power levels. It really sort of simplifies the approach I discussed above, without all the incremental dyno work. Most of us are trying to see how far we can go with all the basic bolt on breathing mods. We all know that the high flow 200 cell cats, do help our powerband. Really all other bolt ons become sort of debatable (like your real world experience above with the plenum) So here’s another take on it- It would be great to see some dyno data from fvd, running their software, their free flowing cats, and an otherwise stock setup, with the original manifolds etc. Then it would be interesting to see them incorporate their newly designed M&M manifolds, an ipd plenum and the free flowing cats/muffler combo and finally flashing their specific tune for this. If you have a dyno locally and decide to use their manifolds/tuning this would be a great opportunity to put their product to the test, with the other breathing mods you currently have. (If this is something you are comfortable with). Further cam work and head work on stock displacement engines- it would be great to see some real world dyno numbers on one of these builds vs displacement increases. Maybe someone is floating around on RL has done this and can share, or maybe FVD has some data they are comfortable with sharing with the community!

C2, Yeah, what FVD has is basically their version of an X51 kit without any headwork and without the dual scavenge pump and oil tube. With the proper skills, anyone can recreate the X51 package. LN sells the dual scavenge pump, all someone has to do is figure out how to connect the oil tube and give Len Hoffman a call to get their heads done. FVD supplies the cam. But this approach does nothing for replacing the bores if they are bad or if you want a set of nickies. Obviously an engine rebuild can get you everything. But to your point on a number of your posts, maybee it's time to discuss how to recreate the X51 engine using the solutions that are available or at least see if we can shake some folks out of the woodwork that have done it. While we will all need an engine rebuild some day because engines are a wear and tear item, some may decide they want to stay at 3.4 or 3.6 with new nickies, but want to increase their power output in ways other than boring. what is great about the evolution of the 996 market is that we have more solutions than we know what to do with.

GC996 - this had me wondering what are the differences in the ECU mapping between a standard M96 and one with the X51 from factory. I know for a fact that different ECUs or maps were used.

�may decide they want to stay at 3.4 or 3.6 with new nickies, but want to increase their power output in ways other than boring.� Why, when boring (higher displacement) is the most direct path to more power? The beauty of the Nickies cylinders is that their strength allows boring without the danger of of ovaling/cracking�

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Pete, I wish I knew. It's tough to get any info on the X51 package. FVD told me that with their software, they use the Porsche software, which means that anytime Porsche has an M96 software update, it's integrated into FVDs program optimization, and then FVD sends you out the updated software. I say this because if FVD has access to all Porsche software for this optimization, they would know about the X51. Give Rhonda at FVD in sales/service a call. She may be able to provide info. I have been dealing with her since 2006 and she has always been a straight shooter and knows her stuff.

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Agreed. It's what I will do. But some may want to go to LN, get nickies, upgrade the internals, keep the bore size as is and choose to upgrade the cam and heads because all they want is an extra 20-25 HP and nickies. Every pot has a different lid.

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From the Porsche bulleting the X51 power pack includes all of the following: "A parts set -"Carrera Powerkit"- is available to retrofit the standard engine with an increased performance of 254 kW (345 HP). The following parts in the engine are replaced, exchanged or modified to achieve this increased performance: - new intake manifold with modified cross-section (material: sand cast aluminum ); - new intake pipe supports adapted to the form of the intake manifold; - new exhaust manifolds with larger cross-section and optimized flow behavior; - new cylinder heads with optimized, CNC-milled inlet ducts; - new camshafts with larger valve stroke on the inlet side and modified inlet and outlet timing; - inlet valve springs adapted to the enlarged valve stroke; - modified partition box/baffle in the oil pan; - modified maps for the DME control module. My wild guess would be that the modified maps most likely have to do with something with the additional air flow and camshafts with the larger valve strokes and ensuring all that talks nice to each other when it comes to supplying the proper AFR. Just my speculation though....

The exercise we are going thru right now is an exercise in quantifying how much Bs is out in the market about performance enhancements. What we know is that with the M96 engine, the only robust way to gain mega HP/TQ is to get a major rebuild that bores out your cylinders to 4.0 or greater. Obviously better internal parts, heads, exhaust, software is needed to tie it all together if you want a dependable 400-420 HP. What we also know is that we can recreate the X51 package either by sourcing the OE parts from Porsche or the aftermarket such as from LN, FVD, etc. But the X51 package with its cam, head work, internal work, software, oil system is only good for 20-25 HP/TQ, and doesn't address bore scoring. So the point I am making is how in the heck can people expect 20-50 more HP and TQ as advertised by many vendors with just exhaust, intake and software? No cam enhancement, internal work and no headwork. You can't... It is impossible. But we do have plenty of viable options with realistic expectations. LN, FSI and FVD prove this point.

Where have you seen a NA M96 that makes 400-420 WHP ? All these crank HP numbers thrown around are bull **** and valueless unless you are using them for development.

I think the goal should be longevity if you get higher HP then great but realized power will only come in increasing capacities and better cooling functions will increase life

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Jason, I hear you. I would forget about the whp or at crank. Instead look at it as: 1. An extra 20-25 HP for the X51 2. An extra 80-100 HP for an optimized 4.0+ rebuild. Porsche tells me that when my car was new, it produced 320 HP. It's now 20 years old and I know I lost a few bits of power over the years. So the question I always ask myself is how much more power do I want on the track over what I have now. The answer that keeps popping up in my head is between 80 to 100 more from where my engine is today. Whether that's 400-420 or 320-340 depending on how you measure it, who knows. All I know is this, I am pretty damn fast on the track with whatever horsepower I have. If you give me more horsepower, I will be even faster.

Its an exciting time in the 996 market with newer products like UAOS, UIDS, along with many different ideas finally being discussed to add reliability to these engines allowing us more versatile (street/track) use. When it’s time for my full rebuild (due to the one of many modes of potential failure)- I’ll 100% be going the nickies route and increasing displacement, with the hopes of some power gains, and the expectation of longevity with the Nickasil SOLUTION. Seeing the development of some of these new products that may directly prolong our existing engine life makes you sit back and play devil’s advocate, however. If we are able to resolve cooling issues with these vehicles, oil starvation concerns, all while staying on top of the known major maintenance items (especially items like injectors, fuel pump/filter)- will we see a large decrease in bore scoring and increased engine lifespan? Will the lockasil liners favorably interact with more effective cooling/oiling and proper injector spray patterns? Will we see less bottom end issues (spun bearings etc) with better management of oiling? Time will tell, but the community and the aftermarket are definitely on the right track with these engines. I will gladly support these products and use them on my car. Good discussion comparing the different build options, with a little reliability talk in here.

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I honestly think and feel that the 3.8 airbox, the enlarged throttle (that�s fvd), souls headers, fabspeed catless xpipe, exhaust have improved my car by how much I don�t know. Certainly I can feel the butt dyno. I know weight has been reduced. A friend has an accelerometer which I can use to see what 0-60, 1/4 mile time the car can do. If I can get the exact weight of the car, then there are programs that will estimate hp. Once again I repeat, I had three different tunes on three different cars done by APR, all of them where verified by dyno, yes they where power and torque gains and APR was conservative in their numbers on all three instances. Maybe anybody that had the fvd tune, the softtronic tune, the fabspeed tube, the unitronic tune can shine in this thread and hopefully someone has had their tune dyno verified. One thing that is clear, the people on this technical site, should know now how to drive and maintain their cars properly for maximum engine durability and reliability. Something that I don�t know about the engine in my car is the fact that it could have already been rebuilt. For the mileage almost 100k miles, the cam deviations are extremely low, -1, 1 last time so at least those should have already been done. Godspeed everyone.

This is normal not out of the extraordinary. Now if you go home with an additional 10 lbs of weight in your car don�t blame me. When I cook I cook for an army, I love leftovers. I only have one rule since I like to experiment in the kitchen, �If you don�t like it you don�t have to pay for it��� . Enjoy. Buen provecho. May even have ribs and pork butt in addition to this. The bar is open 24/7, we can have just about anything you could want. Breakfast at 3 in the morning could be Cuban sandwich, spicy mustard, melted Swiss cheese and Mayo . No keto crap at this establishment.

I have the fabspeed intake on order for my 996 C4S and I'm about to cancel it after seeing that video. I don't mind spending that much money for no HP gains but improved sound, but I'm definitely not okay with spending the money and losing HP. I asked the shop I'm buying the Intake through if I could return it if I dyno'd it before and after and there's an HP loss but they said I wouldn't be able to return it after installed. Really bummed about the whole thing, given that I'm a huge fan of intake noises (had a carbon box in my E46 M3 that sounded glorious).

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Have you read the thread ?

Dani I think the airbox is a beautiful piece if you buy and try it with a remap I think you’ll end up keeping it I have mine on for a few months without a remap and will not take it off when I open my lid it just makes me happy to see a more modern look and it sounds awesome plus if your not happy with you can sell at a small loss and your experiment will be validated

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Depending where you live and how much they charge for installation get an APR tune instead for $700 or less with the rest of the money you can buy a Carrera S 3.8 airbox they are available on eBay frequently. If you block the resonator this box sounds better than original and it�s a lot more effective.

Dani, I would give Fabspeed a call and get their recommendations on how to maximize performance with the product. Zbomb is right, you need to read the entire thread and many others to be able to draw any conclusions. This is a complex topic.

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we had a plan for testing. Spent time developing a protocol, some additional people where going to join in, at the the end John from fabspeed never followed. Maybe because my rash personality or maybe because they where not going to pull any bull**** on me. My two cents. Spent the extra money on soul or fvd products, you will be happy. The air cool guys in our chapter lone star pca, most of them say openly that fabspeed products are sht. Do as you please.

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My apologies for the miscommunications, it was great speaking with you this morning. Our CEO is out of the office due to a recent death in his family, I assure you we have nothing to hide, were one of the only ones willing to put our money where our mouth is and live test. Not to mention showcase our manufacturing capabilities.... we are after all one of the only companies in this industry with the capabilities to research, develop, and manufacture our systems in-house. I look forward to working it out with you!

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I guess this is not dead. Had a good conversation with John. Fabspeed is open to do the testing but we need to finalize the details and find the test mules. I�m 1300 miles away so I�m not the ideal candidate due to distance. Maybe mike who�s a couple hours away can be the 99 cable throttle car. I wasn�t expecting them to reach out but they did and that deserves merit. Mike I�ll contact you latter on to see if you are interested. Other than that we would need a 200-2001 e gas 3.4 and a 3.6 2002-2005. Please reach out. Thanks to jonh at fabspeed for the call.

I’m in lmk let’s see what they can do

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testing may be still on. We will wait as much as necessary, this is like enquire in mind a lot of people want to know. When you get your ducks in a row let me know.

Dude... I'm embarrassed now. I didn't read anything, there's like 19 pages of discussion and I just skimmed and tried to make sense of it. Pretty fair for you to call me out By the way, I've been following your YouTube channel for a while and I'm a huge fan I sent an email to Fabspeed asking if I can dyno and film the before and after upgrade, and that I would #1 post the results and #2 if I lose HP if they would let me return the product. Haven't heard back yet. @Fabspeed Motorsport - FYI My car is pretty much stock engine wise, so I think it would be a good baseline. Cheers!

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I'll shoot you a PM, happy to discuss it

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No worries and thanks for following the build and watching the videos ! The thread got way off the intended path, I should have known the HP would be what would catch attention and not the REASON but that�s on me. Good luck with your offer to test.

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John this would be your perfect candidate, let�s get a 3.8 Carrera S airbox and test back to back. Only adjustment would be to let the car ecu adjust to the intake change. If you need me to I can ship my Carrera S airbox.

@Fabspeed Motorsport Don’t know how far you guys would be willing to go on a few test cars, but it would be interesting to see the following cars and combos dynoed. 3.4 Cable Car 3.4 E Gas Car 3.6 Car 1. Each car gets the baseline dyno. 2. Add Fabspeed intake to each re-dyno 3. Add IPD Plenum, (and GT3 TB to E Gas cars with larger plenum) dyno 4. Add full exhaust, your manifolds, 200 cell X pipe and super cups or maxflos dyno 5. Finally, upload your flash on the E Gas Cars, to compliment the breathing mods. Don’t know if you have ability to tune the drive by wire cars, would love to see it. Provide final dyno numbers. I know this would require a lot of dyno time, but it would be interesting to see the progression of the mods and how the (2) 3.4 variants and 3.6 responds. Definitely respect you opening your shop and offering your time. Heck, even if you could get 1 volunteer car with any stock 3.4 or 3.6 M96–install all the mods above with progressive dyno runs to back it- I’d love to see that alone. Great marketing opportunity via YouTube or your website for the growing 996 crowd.

Heck, I’d drive my 2003 4S out from Chicago and let them do their thing. 85,000 miles on the clock, unknown no cat / muffler setup and intake resonator delete done via previous owners are the only mods. If the stuff works, happy to hand over my credit card and drive home with the stock parts in the frunk.

wonder how this would do on a 4.0 m96 with Hoffman stage one ported heads??

Well I’m a candidate with a 99 3.4 and 1 1/2 hours away

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yes, you are the ideal candidate for the cable car. Let�s see who else wants in. Hopefully enough people are close. Then whoever test can report it here.

@Fabspeed Motorsport got me in touch with Ted D'Ozario and Fabspeed response was rather dull, but I guess that's good because we finally got an official answer. In short: Their return policy doesn't accept items after it's installed. "Fabspeed doesn't dwell on what the internet says." Attached their own dyno chart (that is in the product page). Bottom line - if I don't cancel my order, spend the money to get it on the dyno and find out that Flat 6 Innovations is right and that this thing makes the engine loose performance, I'm on my own. I think I'll cancel my order for now, I'm definitely not looking to spend $1,500 + labor (I can't do it my own) to possibly lose HP. Very frustrated to say the least. Cheers! Daniel

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It really is a simple DIY job. First time took me ~30 minutes. After doing 3 of them, it takes me about 20 minutes tops. If you're in the Houston area...

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what about one with only your exhaust installed ?? maybe a roadtrip is in order in the name of science

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for $700 or less you can get an APR re flash, this really works. It worked so well on my 911, I�m trying to close a deal on a 14 Cayenne GTS, yes one with the red dials, red seatbelts and red GTS stitching on headrests, with the awesome 5.4 V8, if I get it my first mod is going to be APRS tune.

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Luis, what is different now that you have the tune?

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so I�m not 100 percent certain, but I probably lost a bit not much low end torque with the fabspeed catless x pipes. Now with the headers and the tune all that is back on. Also there is more at the top end. I would say from 2500 to 5000 rpms it�s a lot better. The rev limiter has been moved but I�m pretty cool shifting at 7,000 rpms. Since I did all the mods one a time I would highly recommend this recipe. How could it be better, 1. Custom tune specially designed for my mods. 2. A 3.6 or 3.8 engine. Other than those I�m extremely happy with it. Also the car had fabspeed max flows when I got the car, I�m extremely happy because if the car would had the super cups it would be loud and droning. Again if you are thinking about going with the plenum, the tune works, no questions about it. I�m not putting a plenum on my car. A measure that I can definitely check it�s 0-60, 4.6 seconds now. Before I started modifying I was at 4.9.

Cancelled my @Fabspeed Motorsport intake order. I had a less than stellar experience with them last month when I ordered a $2k ECU tune from them for my wife's Cayenne Turbo and now their "we don't care" answer to this Air Intake debacle, really left me with a bad feeling. I may get that 3.8 OEM airbox or some aftermarket intake from a competitor that doesn't charge you so much more and acts like they care.

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Dani, you can find the 997 3.6 and 3.8 airboxes on ebay. Someday someone will dyno them to see if they add anything worthwhile. But they do look better. But I can say that after 20 years of ownership, I can't remember anyone asking to look in my engine compartment. My indy and I are really the only ones that see it. If there are actual performance gains with a 997 air box, I will buy one tomorrow. But have not seen anything that suggests their is.

Yeah but when I open my lid it flips my lid LOL

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No question it looks damn good. I am known too light up a cigar and sit in a soccer chair in the driveway and just look at the car contemplating next steps. If I had the carbon fiber intake. I would buy a taller soccer chair to get a better view!

Lol I’ve already done it Sunday

I picked my 997 3.8L airbox off eBay. There was 1 for just $100, but it looked like it needed to be painted. The one I bought for $150 looked much nicer in the pictures and included a MAF sensor. Unfortunately it didn't look as nice in person, so I ended up repainting it. The MAF sensor works fine, so THAT was worth the extra $50. Always good to have a spare MAF sensor. Went from this: To this:

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ive upgraded everything except the throttle body on my 996. The plenum did zero. Headers, high flow cats and tune each did far more. I ended up running stock air box.

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all you need is a 3.8 airbox. Who�s tune did you finally chose???

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evomsit

I've got a nice early 99 stock example and I'm not too far. I don't think I'll be taking them up on their offer for the sake of stats. They should have already done the stats before advertising claims were made.

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They have already done all the testing years ago with Dyno graphs,etc.. .. They are wanting to conduct a back to back test to show the difference and video it to show..

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i went to cars and coffee today and met with my friend Who has a 99 aero with just a sport Valves exhaust and he replaced the driver seat with a Recaro. Anyway from cars and coffee we had to drive to my mechanic as my friend was dropping his car for quite a few things. Anyway on the drive over there we learned a few things. 1. You can smell the exhaust on my car as I don�t have cats, so my friend sometimes was switching lanes. 2. My car is faster, but it has a bunch Of mods. On purpose we let it rip went as fast as 147 mph and he couldn�t catch me, also i was shifting at 6500 rpms he was shifting at 7,000, I just wanted to see if all my stuff really worked. Anyway on the way back home I let him drive my car and he definitely said mine was faster and was asking about all my mods. The proof is in the pudding, his car has 25,000 miles less than mine. A few pics enjoy. 99s next to each other. Gt2 RS 4.0 this is a bd as? Car. Other side of gt2 RS, the dudes with the money. 1,000 hp hummer, one of three in Houston, owner paid a huge premium to get it. 3 motors, all electric. My mechanic going over needed repairs, issues with a low mileage 930, maybe a $30k total bill. The Ferrari is still there, is still missing and after the Ferrari dealer couldn�t fixed diagnosed it correctly is apparently still a puzzle. That�s BS to deal with when you have such an expensive car.

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You Tube This Aussie guy was locked down in Covid in his state a severe one. So he put up with the wait @Fabspeed Motorsport for both manufacture of his parts by them , and a $4000 AUS dollar tune. With ports data and back and forth. The tune seemed implicit for him to get the gains when he opened his wallet to Fabspeed. His car impresses but his way is not my way, but I always say it's your car car to do as you please. So Fabspeed certainly knew about tuning for this customer.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the sound. I don't mind a little gurgling, but that's just too much loud popping! Maybe if I were still a teenager with a crappy car I'd like it, but certainly not now with my Porsche. The Fabspeed tune is dumping too much unnecessary fuel on deceleration...IMHO their tuning stinks. US$3000 is too much for a custom tune! I hope he was adding in other costs to that AUS$4000 tune.

Seal, thanks for the video. Saw it when he first posted it on YT about a year ago. Great to see that he knows what he wants and I applaud his motivation. My cynical side always wonders how a tuner can tune a car from a distance without the car sitting in front of them with a computer and dyno. Especially if they are running an assortment of different exhaust parts, especially headers which are the wild card. FVD will do it for $900 if you are running FVD or combo FVD/oem exhaust parts because they know what they got for parts. But $4k is a huge price for a distance tune. Be great to know if he actually got anything out of it. When he said 350 i almost dropped my phone. But maybe i am missing something obvious. Wouldnt be the first time, and certainly not the last. 🙂

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Tuning on the dyno is always going to be the best way. Tuning remotely can be done, but take a lot more time. I used to do custom tunes for the BMW N54 engines. Most of them were remote. But yes, a dyno, and someone who REALLY knows what they're doing could produce better tunes much quicker. There are too many "I think I can do it" tuners out there that know only 1/4 of what they're doing. Without a proven dyno session, it's just a WAG. With a dyno, it's only proven for THAT dyno. Peak HP doesn't matter that much. Show me the curve and the AFR before telling any numbers. On the N54, I could make huge peak numbers, but that doesn't necessarily mean the engine was going to be happy. I would only tune until the AFR were happy throughout the powerband. Whatever the peak HP was...was what it was going to be, no more.

I'm used to Aussie 400 bucks " Pacific Peso" for a dyno run, for 600 local tuners do a dyno and a laptop drive. A grand of aussie dollars is usualy dyno road tuning plus helping you redesign your engine to have that finesse feel to it. Parts paid by owner. Most engine builders here will tune, or list the tuners they trust usually max 2. I wouldn't pay 4K for a remote tune. But Porsche tax "Stockholm syndrome" can get to us all. He seems a stand up guy and happy. I think most of us would at least want to see the data collection on dyno rollers, and test and adjust in person.

Wide body nice in black too

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sometimes you see them in camel 🐪 toe wear, there goes my breakfast taco.

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Sounds like ****!

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Most certainly not our tune if it cost $4000 AUD, ours is $895 USD ($1,207 AUD)

Sorry I got off topic. A tunning company ie APR has a bunch of dynamometers. Last time I visited their facility they had 6 dynos. Today I was told they have 8. Anyway, I think for the money it�s extremely hard to beat the APR flash that with installation will cost less than $700. Add the switching capabilities where you have different octane tunes and a valet, security setting is only $100 extra. You know a lot of people talk about their tunes. I�m willing to bet fabspeed has one or maybe two dynos. Don�t know about Giac, Softronic, Unitronics, etc. A final taught, when it comes to dynos there are all kinds of them, some are more reliable and repetitive, some are the latest and greatest , expensive, you take the wheels out, no wheels spin etc. I would have gone custom on mine to tailor it to my mods but I couldn�t find a shop that would do it in house, here in the Houston area.

I assume this has gone no where?

Yep

deleted

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Shameless plug much... The relevance of the video to the thread is tenuous at best, but I can see how you would seize upon the opportunity. If we are going to have OT excursions, I like @3/98 911 coupe a lot more than yours. Comments are turned off in the video BTW, you not interested in feedback on YT ? I gave you a view though

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Wasn't my call. Jake Raby wanted comments to be turned off because he doesn't have time to answer questions on every platform nor deal with those ******** that love nothing more than hide behind an alias and think they can make him a "tool" for their twisted enjoyment. I can't blame him, it was a daily chore just helping answer FAQ. We encourage people to attend our webinars where discussions are more constructive and there is plenty of time to have Q&A. If someone wants more information or offer feedback, then they're more than welcome to contact Jake via the F6 website or message him on the Flat 6 Innovations Facebook page. Since this video is on the topic of modifications that are promoted to have a performance enhancement but have a negative impact on a Porsche M96, I felt it was appropriate. Glad you like Luis' posts.

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Haha OK dude ! You guys and your lot of words to say little... funny. The video was FSI bashing, what looked to be a garbage supercharger kit and other mods THEY don't like. I'm glad you were able to find a place to post your video, good luck with it !

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this thread is about intakes not superchargers or other nonsense hence the title of thread .. weird place to post

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Jason posted my video in the OP which started this discussion on aftermarket intakes vs. stock intakes. But IMHO, this opens up a broader discussion, like with the BAT Targa and the aftermarket motor mounts, do these products that are heavily promoted worth the money and do they deliver results? If you guys are offended or bothered that I posted the new video, then maybe remove it from your cc response. I'll remove it from the post. Have a good weekend!

FYI, Lee Sibley from 9werx on YouTube recently posted a pre and post ipd plenum dyno. He did not add a GT3 throttle body but he did add a kn air filter. Don't know why he didn't add a GT3 TB but the addition of the ipd and kn air filter got him 10 hp on his 996.1.

Looking forward to what Justin shows us on his dyno.

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someone closer to fabspeed should contact John and get some testing done. I�m just too far away and now since I got the 03 turbo I�m going to work with my mechanic and probably marski to get the turbo to rip. Not selling the coupe yet. I want to have drive both. God knows maybe I finish liking the 99 better than the turbo.

Wonder what supercharger kit that was.

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Lee and PCA have both posted videos showing the IPD plenum producing measurable gains throughout the rev-range on a 3.4. And both of them tested the right way, same dyno, same conditions on the same day. I find it amusing because the general census on RL is that the IPD plenum is worthless.

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Isn�t a supercharger an intake?

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A supercharger is a forced-induction mod. An intake works at normal atmospheric pressure. So no, they're totally effing different. Nice troll, tho.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/498x278/8add6ce3_74a8_4e6b_8c22_bf9c1c28998b_ed6820df5d76ad549dbcc5a23e5aa99579b8c784.gif

Wow, a lot of feelz being trampled in here.

Hope I didn't give someone revenue for clicking on B3freak's link.

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Don't worry, even if your click-through gets counted, it only amounts to about .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000001 cent. Guess you got your money's worth.

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Was the case for my 996.2 on the dyno. Lost power. Spent a day at the dyno with my shop looking for gains thru programming and didn't find any. Mind you, my shop is the largest porsche race shop in IL with a large group of m96 club racers and DE guys. They know exactly what they are doing. Maybe it was the GT3 throttle body which Lee did not include. Can't speak for the 996.1, but after talking to fvd, they said the M&M header (equal length and ported) was key. When i dynoed my car it was 2012 and the header technology for the 996s was subpar. Today is a different story. I think Justin's dyno will be interesting when he releases the data. I haven't given up hope on the plenum, if Justin's m&M headers show gains, I will get them and then test again.

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I'm curious as well because I have Agency Power headers on mine and would look to see what everything equalled before I start getting the 3.8 build ready. Justin and I have similar set ups with the exception of the mufflers and the X pipe... of course the tune too.

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Don't much about agency headers, but the key seems to be equal length and ported to facilitate more flow. It's worth a try. At least in my case since I already have the ipd/tb on the car and need to add the fvd m&m header. Justin already has the fvd m&m headems and cats. Don't know b jf he has the ipd/tb. But he did do a before and after dyno with the exhaust.

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You Tube Link to Lee Sibley's youtube showing 10hp plus area under the curve.

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You'll forgive me, but I couldn't let this comment pass. A car that was built between 1998 and 2004 and had been out of production for 8 years and you're suggesting the header technology (I presume you meant aftermarket ?) was "sub par" ? The likes of M&M, Europipe, Cargraphic etc would be developing their systems as soon as they could get hold of a car to enable them to start the R & D process. Most would have mufflers on the market within months of a car's release, and a full system within 12 months at maximum. Manthey (in association with Europipe and M & M) were producing a complete exhaust system for the Mk1 996 GT3 within 2 years (and probably sooner) of the car's launch in 1999. Cargraphic a German owned but UK based company, likewise. The 996 GT3 was a niche product, the C2/C4 was not, so they'd be even more keen to get their products for these models onto the market sooner still. Furthermore, I'm unsure what you mean by ported headers ? A well fabricated header will need minimal if any "dressing or fettling" once fabricated, under some rare circumstances a slight dressing of the internal welds joining the primary pipe to the mounting flange, but nothing more. As for them being equal length, I measured these M & M headers removed from my Mk1 996 GT3 : and they were anything but equal length (we're talking inches out btw), but they still enabled the stock 360hp Mk1 Mezger to produce over 405 hp when allied to less restrictive M & M (HJS) 200 cell cats, less restrictive mufflers/pipe work, a better flowing air filter and a remap. M & M's fabrication is by no means the neatest, but their products do produce the horsepower, plus I noted that the fabrication of their merge collectors were superior when compared to most other aftermarket headers.

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All good points. Yep, it wasn't until a few years ago that header technology advanced for the 996 M96 engine, which is why most of us long time M96 996 owners didn't bother with headers. I can't speak for the mezger engine, but if one of the above referenced companies produced a set of headers that worked "back in the day", one of them would be on my car. Manthey never produced an exhaust system for the M96. Nor did M&M until recently because FVD asked. Today is a different story. You may want to give FVD a call in FL and talk to Rhonda about the recent development of the M&M products for FVD. As you know, M&M has been an integral part in building exhaust systems for porshe motorsports. She can give you the particulars on M&Ms process, methodology and definitions on porting and matching as it pertains to the M96. I get it, it's tough to believe that there weren't viable header solutions until recently for the M96. But you gotta remember that there was a very long time that nobody wanted to spend any money on the car except us track guys. And we weren't a big enough demand pull for the aftermarket to spend money on r&d. With the surge in demand and prices for the M96 996, things have changed for the better.

I have a fully stock 2004 C4S ... I have been shopping for the whole kit and caboodle for about a year now. (performance package, competition IPD, larger throttle body).... I would be willing to donate some time and a car to this conversation for some real world side by side comparison... I have had ongoing dialogue with John Sutor about getting the work done.. just dragging my feet a bit wondering if it will be worth it or not. I'm so close to pulling the trigger.. maybe a little R&D with my car would work and help create some more data. let me know!

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I live just outside of philly as well... jus sayin!

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I believe the technical term for it is "plug and played"

The way you measure headers for equal length, is you seal the face at the head flange, then pour a measured amount of sand down each tube. The level of the measured sand should come up to same height at the collector. I built quite a few headers back in the 70's 80's when Hooker was the only game in town, and you were lucky if they made even one set for your engine. If you wanted a longer or shorter set, or a different size primary tube, you had to build it yourself.

I wonder: Porsche uses equal length headers on some cars, 996/7 style headers on some and on the 05 3.2 they use the short tube (equal length I assume). The short tube style agency power 996 headers supposedly added power under the curve according to flat six innovations. The long tube style reduced low/mid power on a 3.4 cayman I had.

� The short tube style agency power 996 headers supposedly added power under the curve according to flat six innovations.� When I had my engine built out to Stage II 3.8L by FSI, they initially had some difficulty getting it tuned properly (fuel air ratios at high rpm�s). While it turned out to be cracks in the Venturi tubes of the fuel pump assembly (C4), during a discussion with Jake early on in the process, he mention that the �weird headers� (agency power) I had on there might be contributing to the problems. He never mentioned any �power added under the curve� to me�🤔

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Thats interesting... headers don't change assuming no leak at the gasket or elsewhere pre 02 sensor, they do what they do and I don't get why that would contribute to a difficulty in calibrating the fueling - the cracked venturi tubes would likely lead to some variability in the fuel available to the engine vs. what was being demanded by the tuner and ECU via the calibration... That makes sense.

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I think he posted about them when they were on sale or when he started stocking them, more or less around the time I got mine.

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^^^ I agree� I think he was just sort of �thinking out loud� as he was pretty frustrated at that point. I just thought it was ironic that someone had mentioned above that FSI had noted an increase in torque from the headers that Jake had called weird in our phone conversation (I actually offered to send him my stock set that�s still sitting in my garage) but he said nah, I�ve got some I can swap out if I really have to�

Well - I would encourage guys to look into the difference long runners vs. short make on both the exhaust and intake side. One of the most entertaining, and enlightening resources for me is : https://www.motortrendondemand.com/d...rs/980061/7488 You'll need a subscription to motor trend TV (totally worth it) to watch but you may be able find on YT. These guys test various engine myths to a not often level of detail. If you sign up, you will find a lot of tests that are pertinent to concepts that are found throughout this thread. Their testing takes place on American muscle, but a lot can be taken from the principles.

2005 3.2 s motor rated at 280 hp I think

The truth is out there, grasshopper... https://www.theknowledgegruppe.com/p...ecorded-audio/

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For 500? Did you just post this as an answer for over 24 pages on the topic as if it's going to answer anything?

I think running "intakes" back to back is always going to skew actual results. The Fabspeed one has a slightly different diameter than factory (its oval- measuring it and calculating area I get about ~4% smaller), so taking a car that has a factory intake with LTFT situated for a factory intake, swapping and slapping it on the dyno will result in a goofy AFR. You could do the same thing the other way. To get a real comparison, you would have to have the intake on for 30ish miles, get the fuel trims all settled and do a dyno run then. Swap intakes, do the same, and then compare. Long Term fuel trims take care of this. I have a fabspeed intake on my 997 and when I check LTFT they are around -4% both banks. As for Intake temps, both the factory intake and fabspeed intake have very similar ambient deltas when the car is actually moving. Fabspeeds is higher when stationary or stop and go traffic. I have measured this extensively I would be happy to drive over to fabspeed and get my car dyno'd for the hell of it to put this thread to a close. have both intakes available currently, will drive 30 miles and come back and dyno the stock one. Its not stock by any means tho. Softronic Tune, Fabspeed CAI, IPD, Fabspeed headers, stock cats, borla exhaust. Cut an X51 hold in my decklid to feed both intakes. Live in Philly. @Fabspeed Motorsport PM if interested. anecdotally my car was neck and neck doing pulls on the highway with a .1 GT3 with a full dundon exhaust and tune. I don�t think I�m losing 50 wtq.

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yeah. I think we have to take sides on this. The best M96/97 engine builder in the country that has a waitlist from here to eternity, can choose whatever parts he wants.bFSI can choose to put whatever intake he wants to make his engines more powerful, from KN, to evolution Motorsports, to fabspeed, to agency power, what he likes, that will answer your question. I leave you with the following two comparisons, the most consumed tequila is Jose cuervo gold, the most famous Mexican beer is corona, go ask the Mexicans what they drink. Almost nobody in M�xico drinks any Of them, advertising does wonders because there are a lot of koolaid drinkers in the world (snake oil salesman).

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Euro Cup GT in Britain makes a the snorkels for both left & right side if you haven't already added one to route air toward air filters on the Fabspeed style intake. They use to make a very similar intake, but looks like it was discontinued post covid. The Carbonio Carbon Fiber never took off too well, it was really pricey, same as the GruppeM This is GruppeM CIA There was another Carbon Fiber dual inlet to replicate 997 X51 manufactured by a tuner in Europe, I can't find name or image, it was near $3k 6 years ago

^ I just added the factory x51 hole via air saw and installed the factory right side x51 duct. It doesn�t appear that EurocupGT�s snorkel would be oriented correctly to line up with fabspeed. the left and right ducts are actually different sizes, the way the bonnet is it has to be. my set up achieves IATs that are 6 degree delta (F) from ambient on the highway, better than stock airbox.

Also watching the flat6 video at the beginning of the thread that car has a vacuum leak. The selenoid for the hemholtz resonator is not capped after removal of the stock intake. just saying.

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They made a Y pipe intake very similar to Fabspeed, I actually purchased one, had it shipped here from Britain, but got damaged in shipping.

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I�ve always wondered with these intakes� doesn�t it just suck in a bunch of hot engine compartment air as opposed to the stock air box which connects to the ambient air? Wouldn�t this make the whole engine run hotter than stock?

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Fact 1) Colder air going into engine makes more horsepower/torque Fact 2) Dyno sheets can be manipulated* * Talk to tuners who know how to skew a result with engine lid up or down, with or without fans blowing, warm or cold dynos, etc. Yes, you can run a scan gauge in your car in real time that will monitor intake air temperature, if you duct the air with dual snorkels very close to filters, these CAI can be effective, but there are a lot of variables. The least restrictive air flow and the cooler is always better. You can start by researching why the rubber inhaler that goes from your air box to throttle body, why is it rippled?

You guys bring up some interesting points on skewing dyno numbers. Certainly would be a helpful topic for us to all explore. Not suggesting in any way it happens. But would be nice to know nevertheless. How do you game the dyno?

David is the snorkel Rippled to help create Venturi effect airflow and or a little cushioning so the intake to bounce around again I have the competition single arm intake and I haven’t noticed a drop in power at all after removing my K&N for the fabspeed but I have added numerous components IPD/FVD that may have helped

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There was an indepth road test done some years back explaining the use of the ripples in the inhaler, it has been referred to as air flow baffling. Reasons that were highlighted 1) Horsepower reduction, Porsche charges a lot of money for upgraded models and option ie X51 ( similar inhaler, but different plenum, throttle body, cams and valve train), GT3, Turbo 2) Noise reduction, that is why the silicon inhaler with air box cap was a big hit, it made the the engine sound a little more aggressive. Logically this goes against everything we have ever learned about porting, polishing and smoothing out intake chambers and ports to increase hp/torque.

Jake is currently working on Air intakes. He's been burning the candle at both ends. Facebook has some of his recent work on head porting, intake runner porting etc. Very interesting (to me) stuff.

Good to hear. Glad the innovation on the M9X continues. Looks like I am going to have to join Facebook.

I saw a vid and he was using a 997.1 Airbox and discussing flow of the intake mani.

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Does this mean you are close to driving your FSI engine powered 996?

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The work he has done in the past 4 weeks has been nothing short of miraculous. What he has revealed with every stock induction system has been shocking with the flow bench work as well as the silicone molds he has pulled from all the intake components to compare. We are glad to see that he is back at it on his M9X performance book, as well as developing these intakes to become part of the LN-BRS line. For those who don't know Jake was suffering with what was believed to be long term Covid. He had symptoms that were worsening after September of 2021. Finally in the spring the correct diagnosis was made of Rocky Mtn. Spotted Fever + Lyme disease. This was about the time that he left the forums. I had to look up what the condition was, and what I read was downright scary, with a very high mortality rate if without treatment within a few weeks. He went like this for 8 months or so. Due to that it seems the infection has been more difficult to eradicate, taking multiple rounds of treatments. He is on the mend, but since the RMSF infection had many months of momentum the recovery has been slow. He can't work 18 hours a day anymore, and he has to avoid stress entirely. He now has meat allergies and has had to dramatically change his diet. I think development work is helping him to feel better than anything. So, this is why you haven't seen him release any new videos, or Renncasts. All of the intake and exhaust products he is developing will make their way exclusively to LN when he is satisfied with them. I don't know when that will be, and I certainly won't be asking him. Here's some pics I snagged from the FSI Facebook page where he has been posting some limited updates.

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Thanks for the info! Any preliminary list of new products that you can share?

That’s wonderful news hope for a speedy full recovery and also that you guys are even thinking of producing a product for the 996 is amazing thanks again

The intake work is definitely cool to see. From the videos I've seen in the FB group, this has mainly been prompted by a recent R43 build and a particular HP goal that FSI wants to achieve. As such, various intakes are being tested and modified in order to achieve that goal. This includes, .1 X51, .2 X51 and 997 X51 intake plenums and runners along with a variety of intake boxes. With FSI, it's never just a single part or improvement. It's always a combination of many things. Therefore, selling and thinking that adding an intake plenums alone will yield any particular power bump might go as well as the Fabspeed intake or IPD plenum discussions we've had. We have seen how well the intake conversation has gone and the lack of impartial data supporting it. We couldn't get anyone to swap intakes and dyno...now imagine doing this with intake plenums which require substantially more work!

Wishing a speedy recovery! Love this stuff ! Godspeed!

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I know that only completely matched intake systems will be offered when we finally get them. Based on what FSI has shared very few of the pieces that have been tested work well when their combination is broken. Since the aircooled days Jake has always been adamant about selling things as a complete system that has known results. He has always hated to sell things, which is why he gave us the aircooled parts store in 2012, and gave up on that. People didn't want to buy systems, and that's the only way that he would sell them. Since he won't be selling these parts (or even engines) and it is all up to us, maybe things will change. Honestly, he won't tell us and we won't ask. He's already given us several special tools to make, as well as some intake adapters. I know the full intake systems are coming, as well as full exhaust systems but I am unsure of which of these will be available with or without an LN-FSI engine purchase. Reaching 500HP from his current R43 build at less than 7,000 RPM was one goal that kicked off this work. I know by the end of week one Jake's intake modifications were already able to support 540HP simply based on airflow alone. Lots of other factors come into play that can hamper this, but at least the intake volume is there through the entire system from air filter inlet through an OEM panel air filter, down through a pair of inlet valves opened to .465" valve lift. I think that prior to this modification work the intake system he was working with had max of supporting 506 HP, but that could be wrong. He used the actual cylinder heads from this engine as well as the exact intake system, and air filter that the engine will use to perform this test. He has also built the entire exhaust system for this engine, and put into his words "I'm tired of dealing with people selling junk that take too damn long and charge too damn much". After that first week of intake development he sent the pieces out for 3D scanning. This will allow 3D printing or more parts that can be tested before going to the foundry. While he awaits them to return (so he can finish the last R43 under) he has been working on gathering silicone molds from every single intake system for all 17 M9X engine designations. This includes intakes, exhaust ports, and combustion chambers. Every plenum is being cut open just so the molds can be removed easily, right along with every set of intake manifolds and runners. I know this was about the only work that was needed so he could finish the final 4-5 chapters of the M9X Performance Guide. Every piece of the stock systems has been compared individually, and then as stock systems and then in mixed systems that put the best combination of OEM pieces together. Last I heard he was sawing heads in half, as well as splitting intake manifolds, and had even tested the newest version of the IPD plenum that you see in the pics I shared earlier. Don't expect him to be sharing this stuff online other than some pics, since the last thing he wants or needs are opinions. At LN we've added the best developer to the team possible. Once he bounces back from the illness and doesn't have to deal with business anymore we can only imagine what will come from Skunkwerks. BTW- I think the things he saw during the tests that started this thread spearheaded his enthusiasm to do all of this work to gain an understanding of every M9X intake system that no one else has. He may be sick, but he is still on fire! One puzzle he has already put together has been quite amazing. @LN Tech 139

Looking forward seeing the final package. Will be good to see an integrated intake/exhaust system that is proven and works. Question: will this system be reusable with an FSI or LN rebuild?

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Yes from this point forward all FSI engines will be sold as long blocks on exchange through LN. The line has been tagged since January, when FSI decided not to sell any more engines directly. All engines will be installed by FSI selected and trained Certified Installers. Due to this the intake system can be kept stock, or can be upgraded with the new system, once completed and all testing logged. Jake will still take on some "Exclusive" projects where he will do all the scope of work at his Skunkwerks facility,(collecting the full vehicle) but I feel those jobs will be exceptionally few and far between. He's done with backlogs and calendars, with parts shortages and crazy prices to ship vehicles. Tech 139 @LN

Ok where do I sign up for the 9xx monster motor you have me dribbling

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You can sign up for the notification list for completed engines at www.flat6innovations.com Jud will send you an application for Tier 1 or Tier 2 notification based on the current condition of your core engine, mileage, and intended usage. Following receipt of the application the review panel will place you into the proper tier, and as engines are completed you'll be notified simultaneously along with all the other members of the same tier. This way everyone has the same opportunity to fairly purchase the engine. Once FSI completes an engine all the history of that engine's base core are shared, along with 300 photos of the built engine, as well as videos build videos, and a list of all the hard parts, performance parts, and processes used to create this particular engine.. The engine specs are also shared, right down to cylinder head port flow data. The first person that pulls the trigger gets the engine. The idea behind this is non- committal based. The last couple of years killed the FSI crew as they stayed on schedule and on proposed budget amongst unprecedented components shortages, and inflation. Jake was bound and determined not to be late and not to charge a dollar more than proposed. Moving forward this is eliminated since engines will only be offered once they are 100% completed, and crated with absolute known costs. This means that there's no risk for the buyer to experience increased costs, and no risk that LN/FSI will lose money on a build. This also means there's no chance that a project will be "late", and since no deposits are going to be taken there's no pressure from buyers in regard to engine completions. This leads to the least amount of stress for everyone involved. Jake knows the industry will never recover from these shortages, so this change to the program guarantees success from every perspective of the transaction. Basically this means no more wait lists. The "wait" now is based on how soon someone can respond to an engine once the mass notification of a completion for their engine designation is made. Jud will be leaving the FSI side to handle engine sales and past/ present/ future support on the LN side after the end of the year. This will mean a seamless transition as Jake only works on development and building a few special engines per year as Exclusive projects. Jud has been the GM at FSI for a decade and has great knowledge of all things M9X. All 2022- 2023 FSI engine purchasers were notified of this back in March, which coincided with Jake's RMSF diagnosis. Each of them appreciates they were among the last of the old program, and supports the new, better way of doing these transactions in these ever- changing, and very unstable times of the world. The only thing changing is the way engines are ordered, and sold. The crew at FSI isn't changing, nor is the processes to create engines. Since we need to expand product development at LN, Jake is coming onboard here to lead the product development division his own way. All of this will be released later. Right now FSI is working off the backlog and focusing on ending the old program on the same positive note that it started with. The first few engines of the new program have already been sold, and the process is still being perfected with these beta- testers. Lots of great things to come! So, anyone interested just submit a ticket to www.flat6innovations.com and Jud will get you an application out, and add you to the next 4 hour informational webinar.

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I could be missing something here and wanted to clarify a few things. Will the new engines be sold ONLY if you're providing your engine as a core? I'm assuming that core means the long block? Could you provide a hypothetical example of what that cost would look like to the customer? Let's assume the core is valued at $10k. Will the built engines have a list price from which the value of the core will be deducted? With that, my understanding was that typically the value of the core is evaluated once that engine is torn apart. How is the value of the core going to be evaluated here? Last but not least, has a decision been made what will be offered in terms of engines? Stock rebuild or any of the other variants that were available? Just a few questions I came up with that I think others will have as well as the program takes shape. Glad to see the business adjust to the changing world and economy. Only constant is change. Having said that, I'm sometimes taken back by some of these absolute blanket statements that are made, like the industry never recovering from shortages. Never? It was said that stock M96 short blocks are all gone and will never be available again, yet I can order one tomorrow if I wanted to. Never say never. The war and Covid has certainly kicked the economy in it's ***, but saying things will never recover seems a bit far fetched. It won't happen quickly and will probably take years but never?

Looking forward to the future details / roll out of the new program. As I approach the 90K mark on mine, perhaps a preventative approach can be considered in my case rather than a wait till it goes bang (at least thats my excuse to the wife ).

Ahhh… I missed the shameless FSI peddling interrupting threads. This feels like we’re getting back to normal with no data, all opinion and lot of words.

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So now you will be able to buy an engine "off the shelf" as it were.... smart

Don't forget solutions! 👍

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I gotta say: To say you're going to get even close to 500 NA HP from 4.3 liters at 6500 rpm is ludicrous and wholly impossible

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Lot of drivetrain loss�

The last R43 made 472HP at 6,600 RPM. None of the R43 engines to date have made less than 450HP. A SUMEBORE R44 that is waiting to hit the dyno should also break 500HP, but that one is a test engine and likely won't nail the power on the first try based on what I've heard in our meetings. I think the owner of that last R43 is an RL member, but I could be wrong. I know the team from Hagerty Media drove that car when they visited FSI to feature Jake's work in their magazine a few months ago and they wrote some if it in their review. That engine had around 30 CFM less total intake flow (from inlet valves through air filter inlet) than this one has, and it also didn't use the FSI full exhaust system. I have seen those plots. These engines never need more than the stock rev limiter to make all their power. The last one I drove had an unreal power band, filled with a flat torque plateau and power anywhere and everywhere with instant throttle response as well as great manners. "So now you will be able to buy an engine "off the shelf" as it were...." Not at all. These engines are all going to be at least Stage II with all upgrades. They won't be a base level engine with a lot of additions, or mass produced. Each will remain the creation of a single assigned engine builder at FSI. Core engines will be limited in acceptance due to the tier of qualification, and mileage plays a key role to acceptance to any particular tier. This ensures that someone doesn't swap in their 150K mile failed core engine for an engine with 35K miles that was an elective build. This also ensures the inverse doesn't happen. Each core is documented from receipt to completion of all processes. Failed engines with more than cylinder bore scoring are not planning to be accepted for a core, so if an engine has failed the program won't fill a Tier 1 or Tier 2 order for that purchaser. The volume of elective builds should more than keep up with the reduced capacity of M9X builds at FSI based on the components that can be acquired. The tentative cut off for a Tier 1 purchaser is 120K miles. I am unsure how they are handling engines that have extremely low miles and would be an elective build. I know there are some sub- tiers and special groups that keep buyers purchasing an engine that is roughly close to what their core engine has logged for all fairness. The volume of M9X engines at FSI will drop by 50% after the new program is in place. Since FSI builds all Porsche engines those with a more solid parts supply will make up the gaps, and we will sell those here at LN as well. Jake wanted to shrink things, so this was the best way to do that, and at the right time since LN continues to expand, and grow. We needed his developmental skills/ resources and he needed our sales and distribution so he didn't have to deal with anything other than the machines. We plan to change some things around and offer more support for 2nd owners of cars with FSI engines, as well as other things that FSI never cared to do. The "wait lists" are now non- committal. No dates or prices are given till FSI 100% completes an engine and has it in the crate. By then the exact cost is known right down to shipping. Once FSI finishes an engine they hand over all the specs and details/ pics/ videos of that engine to Jud who will be at LN by that time. Jud then sends out a notification through the communication portal to everyone on the notification list for that particular M9X engine code designation with all the details included. Since everyone on the list is already pre- qualified for purchase, whomever makes the commitment first gets it. Tier 1 purchasers get the first notice, if they all pass on the engine then the notification is sent to all the Tier 2 members, and so on until the engine sells. ​​​​​​​Some engines have already been sold like this, and the longest one has lasted was something like 17 minutes. That is hearsay so don't quote it. If someone follows the method of this sale closely, they'll see that all the risk for the buyer is eliminated. For those that are determined to keep their original engine number Jake may select them for an exclusive build of his where he will still get the car and process the build the old way. I'd say this will be limited to R- Series engines, special edition cars, GT3s and Turbos. I know that he wants to spend time developing and doesn't want to deal with customers so I have no idea how many of these would get selected. This doesn't for everyone, and like Jake said "It will work for enough" since he is purposely slowing the business down anyway. I'll be spending lots of my time at FSI soon, and Jud will join me here on RL when the time comes and engines are ready along with the rest of the program. That should be spring- summer 2023. A few people have sent me messages about this. I urge you to refrain from this and send the messages through the FSI communication portal where Jud can discuss it with you and send you an application. I have a lot of information, but not all of it. One question that I have gotten more than once is if the old program will ever exist again after the parts shortages are behind us. The answer to that is no- Jake does not believe the situation will ever be cured enough to put the old program back in place. Based on where we stand as manufacturers we concur with this observation and are working hard to make more items here in USA that we used to buy from Germany, either genuine or OEM. Some parts can't feasibly be made, so impacts will last for years.

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I missed this post sorry. I'll reply to each point below where I can. - New engines will require the core that comes from the customer's car. that is the core that will be qualified up front. This engine will be sent back to FSI once the replacement engine is fitted to the car within 10 days by the Certified Installer. Certified Installers are being further trained to manage these cores and the full process so there's no hassles for the buyer. Jud will be the liaison who will keep the program managed as he works to use his processes at FSI to manage the projects that are being carried out by the CFI. -These engines will be sold as long blocks with all sub- components included. an optional performance package will be offered as well as an optional installation kit, all sold by LN. CFIs will be trained on this implementation as well. -Since no failed engines (beyond bore scoring)will be accepted, the business of core charges is greatly simplified, and purchasers can't be ripped off by hidden fees. This is a major problem with every other exchange engine program, and Jake would have no part of that potential disaster. Bore scoring doesn't;t create collateral damages that are beyond the scope of the minimum efforts of FSI, and the components that are impacted by bore scoring are thrown away during every FSI build, so these things make no impact on cost. Basically we don't care if you have bore scoring, but we do care if you have anything else, and the engine won't be a qualified purchase. The core fee will be returned in full once the core engine is received in the same state it was qualified in, with the matching recorded engine serial number. No other program does this, and it leaves open a can of worms for the buyer. -All engines will be Stage II or greater. No Stage I and no Stocker, since these use more OEM and genuine parts that simply do not, or will not exist in the future. -The only M#s that will be supported are: M96.01/02/04 (5 chain 996.1@3.4) Taken to Stage II@3.8L M96.03 (3 chain 996.2@3.6) Taken to Stage II@4.0L M96.05 (997.1 Base @3.6L) Taken to Stage II@ 4.0L M97.01 (997 Carrera S @3.8L) Taken to Stage II@4.0L or Stage II+@4.1L M97.21 (987S Cayman 06-08 and Boxster S 07-08@3.4L) Taken to Stage II@3.8L No other engine designations will be offered unless the demand calls for it. Concerning the parts supply: We know from dealing with all the importers who buy our parts and distribute them here in the USA that the parts supply will not recover enough to supply the volume of parts that LN and FSI has used in the past to keep up with our sales and the builds. Jake bought parts for every engine on his books when Covid hit and that's why he has remained on schedule. Today those parts don't exist and it took one employee a 40 hour work week just to find the parts to get to the end of their line. The parts suppliers know that their manufacturers are dead focused on keeping OE contracts with VW/ Porsche/ AIDI/ MB and others at the top of the priority for new car manufacturing. We keep a check on datum codes on all new parts we receive and have seen zero parts made in 2022. The newest components that we see are from mid year 2021 and those are only high volume items like AOS units. The OEs and OEMs have to fulfill their orders for new vehicle production lines or they lose those contracts. We get this insider information since we sell parts to these companies and deal with the same purchasing agents that are buying parts from the OEs and OEMs in EU and elsewhere. Component quality has gone down as new manufacturers are being tasked with making parts. All shops have noticed this with newly manufactured OEM parts and we discuss it in our groups. I don't think that anyone can say that the market won't ever recover from this. Jake has set the FSI side of the business up so he will never miss a delivery date, since meeting these dates without fail has almost killed his whole team. It takes drastic changes and measures to operate today, and in the near term. The new program ensures that no matter what happens no engines will be late, or over budget. As far as pricing goes- I have no idea. No one does at this point. Engines will be priced individually based on the parts and processes that went into that particular engine. This means that every engine will likely have a different cost. I know they won't be cheap, since it is now costing FSI more to build an engine today than they sold it for only 14 short months ago. As far as how long someone may have to wait on an engine, that depends on getting qualified and having a tier selected. How fast the purchaser can respond to the engine completion notification, and follow up with the engine payment in full will make the biggest difference in how long the person may be on the notification list before acquiring the engine. Note: We are also working on financing options for these engines, which is also something that FSI never cared to offer or deal with. To say the least though there are some hurdles to be a purchaser the program has never been as good as it will be in the future.

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Sure, I would love to drive a 500 hp 996 to see what it's like, but in reality, all the car needs is an extra 100 - 120 hp/tq that is bullet proof dependable and driveable on the track and the 996 will be more than competitive.

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Then you have achieved a record thermal and/or volumetric efficiency for a NA engine

Quotes source post: 18311111

That is where almost all the FSI engines are and will be. As an example one of the first engines produced from this program was a 3.4 to 3.8 sold to a local purchaser to FSI as a beta tester for the DIY Certified Installer program where the vehicle owner can install their own engine with training. Yesterday his 996.1 (Stage II@3.8) netted 318 RWHP from an engine that in stock form usually tests at 244 RWHP as a stock 3.4. This is the sort of gain that is repeated at FSI over and over again these days with my exposure there over the past 6 months seeing it for myself as I learn the program. Usually a 3.6 996.2 that makes 260ish at the wheels is making around 325 at the wheels as a Stage II @4.0, but I did see several around 340 with the FSI exhaust. 500HP engines aren't the goal, once FSI hits that goal I don't think they'll care about reproducing it especially since building R- Series engines moving forward will be very difficult. This one was sold in early 2021 and is just now hitting Jake's bench. As far as the RPM these R43 and R44 engines are seeing, I mis- spoke. I am waiting on the official numbers, but the 472HP engine did need over 7,000 RPM to break the power figures. While I was at FSI off and on I have only seen one of these tested, and those were only runs during break in. Jake is on the flow bench again today, so maybe he'll get back with me on Monday to confirm the power figures and RPM. I'll be headed back to FSI in early September and plan to post more of what I see there in another thread. I should leave this one alone, before it gets even further off track.

My question is I have 996.1 3.4 can it made into a 4.0R motor

No, 996.2 or newer are what the R- Series engines have been based from. The first generation variocam F1 does not allow enough camshaft adjustment to work with the R- Series FSI camshafts. The 996.1 also does not have variable valve lift, so the additional work does not much good. With the 996.1@ 3.4 very close to 400HP today as a Stage II@3.8 nothing more should be needed to break this than the intake system being currently developed and the JR13 camshaft profiles for the first ten 996.1 engines. I just learned this last week from Jake, so I'm glad you asked while it was fresh on my mind.

Why not rev past 7000 RPM? I know that the program focuses on torque and area under the curve but some people just want to see their engine scream. There are plenty of built flat 6 motors that rev to 8000 or even 9000 RPMs so why not push the limit there? I know Jake has a certain customer in mind and a very focused business model but I'm surprised that the only dyno numbers I ever see are scattered in random posts with no concrete data to back it up. I'd love to be proven wrong but it's hard not to be skeptical of an M9X based motor making over 100 hp/L NA with a stock rev limit.

I own a 2006 997 manual with a Flat 6 Innovations R43 engine. Jake built it for me at the beginning of 2022. I absolutely love this car and engine combo and drive it 4 times a week. Part of my daily commute includes a classic section of twisty roads and canyons. I'm not a frequent poster on this forum - just a casual reader but wanted say something about the R43. I've driven 997 GT3's, 991 GT3's and 992 GT3's on the road and the track. I actually think this motor has them all beat for fun on the road. I think if you are on an actual race track and can hold the rpm's consistently above 6K, a GT3 is amazing. For driving on the road, I find the super high rev's required to stay in the power band, make driving fast a little too hectic. It's a lot of fun and nothing I can't handle, but it can get tiring 4 days a week. The R43's power really comes alive at 4K and gets very serious above 5K. I've never felt the wish to rev beyond the stock rev limit. There's so much power at and just below the rev limit, and so much intense sound, I'm relieved to shift. I've never driven a car as fun as this one coming out of corners in 2nd or 3rd gear. It never gets old. The engine delivered 465+ on the dyno and that feels correct. It's an easy driver around town and completely a sleeper. It's very reliable and easy in traffic. I also purchased an air-cooled car from Jake personally and can't wait to get one of his air-cooled R engines in it.

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Well - I'm really glad you found your way to this FSI R series engine thread to share you experience. Would you mind sharing the dyno graph and the cost and lead time with us before you leave ?

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I am really curious about how someone like you finds this thread. Maybe I don�t know how forums work.

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Whoa whoa whoa there... Are you insinuating that this user was guided here to promote a non-vendor... no way, I mean it says... FSI R Series engines please tell us all about them right in the subject.... right ? Side note... Did you know @BRS-LN is going to be selling FSI engines... Double side note...Not sure you heard about the absolute hottest **** on the streets, the zbomb WTF Series engines (NOT FOR SALE)... 1200 horsepower at the crank. 1400 at the wheels. Literally re-writing physics with technology.

I don't usually comment on these types of threads, but I don't understand why you are so bitter. I have two engines built by FSI, one for my 2003 996 C4S and one for my 95 993; they came on time, on budget as promised. They elevate the car and the experience. It's not for everyone. Quit being such a baby buy one, or drop it. I'm here because I subscribed to a thread that kicked out one of these posts.

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Hehe... so ahhh... how much that motor set you back ? Can you post the graph's ? It's the closest I will get to making my car...elevated. Help a guy out.

The lead time was over a year but it was kinda fun waiting and I got the car back on time and on budget. I'll just say the engine cost a lot but it was totally worth it.

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Fun waiting a year for something is a new one. Another example of an FSI engine owner being evasive at about how much they paid and not sharing the performance data from their engine. Another thread taken completely off the rails with FSI engine talk where the most simplistic and obvious questions are danced around. How much power shown with a graph and how much money did it cost... If you're going to perpetuate the destruction of what at times was a pretty good thread, at least come with some substance to go along with your opinion. Want a WTF43 engine ?

And one more thing since we are lucky enough to have @BRS-LN so actively participating here including being the main conspirator of driving this thread off topic. You’re deep sump blows. You guys have been selling that garbage for how long ? How much revenue has a part that doesn’t work generated for the LN/BRS/FSI empire you guys are building. How much of that empire has been funded by stuff that doesn’t work ?

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� I'm not a frequent poster on this forum - just a casual reader but wanted say something about the R43.� ^^^ I think this is your answer� Of course you should have seen this. Did you actually read the post, or are you just trying to make a point ala zbomb? You guys are hilarious The conspiracy theories are mind blowing�

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How do you get these to 4.3 and 4.4 liters?

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Actually I was really curious as to how someone finds this thread. He has 6 posts and a 997. The thread title is nowhere near related to the R43 or LN or FSI. Is there a way to put in keywords that you have interest in and those threads always pop up? The only threads I ever see are by scrolling the titles of the ones in this and the racing forum.

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im guessing they start with a 4.0l block, i think 9a1 motor. i guess he forgot to mention that its not relative to a 996 unless u really want to be upside down in a swap. When u get into the 991/2 motors 4-450 na crank hp is already there from the factory. Lets not forget how everyone $hit all over fabspeed in this thread but they did offer dyno sheets and dyno time. I know it hasnt happen for various reasons but at least they gave us data. Many just crapped in the data and claimed the test was flawed but still no one else stepped up. Now the same people have their panties in a bunch when a few call out this random marketng post with no data. Many of us just want to see facts and not marketing data.

The " local beta tester " referenced above is me . I started my conversation with FSI in November as I was planning to purchase a car with a deceased engine in December . Jake/Jud referenced a new business model they were moving forward with themselves and LN Engineering . I decided to be a guinea pig 😋. Because I am local Jake provided me the training to do the install . I did 95% of the install with some minor assistance. If my experience is how the future transactions will take place it will be a good option . I am happy with how my car performs/feels. And the bottom line is that's all any of us want from our cars .

I'm going to ask again that the whingers, conspiracy theorists, and others insistent on flinging negativity please take it elsewhere. There is even a thread for it now. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...m96-build.html

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Dont forget to send the random marketing posts with no relavence there too.

It can be pretty easily argued that this thread has evolved from just being about two setups, and therefore that the LN posts on intake development have relevance. But sure, I can go along with asking them to post in their own thread.

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Years of work and development. The key is the heart of the engine. The crankshaft. It has increased stroke and doesn't use anything remotely close to Porsche bearing journals or connecting rods. These are coupled to LN Nickies cylinders in sizes larger than any bore size offered worldwide. With SUMEBORE technology we are pushing to go even larger and that is why Jake is pushing forward so hard with cylinder head and intake development as these are a necessity. This work is not done using a different block, and can be done to any M9X block. In fact the R44 that has SUMEBORE cylinders fitted and is ready for testing is based from a 2.7L Boxster block, but will be going into a 997.1. This engine with the same block lived its first 18 months and 30K miles as a Nickies equipped R44 before it was taken back down to be fitted with SUMEBORE for direct comparisons. All R Series engines I have experienced to date have been based from M96.03, M96.05 and M97.01 crankcases, other than the one random M97.20 block from the 2.7L I mentioned above. 9A1 engines are not needed to do this. I was ecstatic when I was assigned to work at FSI as part of this merger. I was present a few months ago when this video was shot of carlsonroad's R43 engine. You Tube I was able to do some of the testing of this car as part of my training since Jake was starting to suffer due to his RMSF which was not yet diagnosed at that time. He was already off his game a fair bit and wasn't able to think straight during the video. Someone mentioned FSI not being a sponsor of the forums any longer. LN is a Platinum Sponsor of RL and the forum sponsor for the 996 Forum, which costs us thousands of dollars per year. The RL business office at Internet Brands was informed of the FSI/ LN technical merger and they have no problem with us posting FSI content since FSI engines are exclusive offerings of LN Engineering solely. There are no more direct sales of FSI engines, as LN has assumed the brand. This is no different than any other forum sponsor being a reseller of goods of any other manufacturer. It does go a bit deeper since the FSI brand is now ours only. One thing I have noticed while working between LN and FSI is the true animal magnetism that the purchasers have throughout the process and afterward. The motivation that is exists is contagious and makes it very easy for a work day to go by because there's no drama and no displeased people to work with. In days gone by I have worked at a couple of other companies in the automotive business that did not share this trait. What Jake has created by doing what he says he will do, always being on time or early and refusing to charge people more than proposed has certainly worked wonders for creating the attraction that keeps people coming back for more engines. I know of at least 4 purchasers that have 2 or more FSI powered cars that I've worked with in the past 6 months. Two of them have posted in this group, and BTW they found this thread because it was shared in the Private FSI Owner's lounge by an owner who wanted to share with others how Jake is progressing through his RMSF and Lyme disease. FSI owners are a unique group of people who have a loyalty that I haven't seen anywhere else in automotive circles. Several mention the data. I have noticed that many buyers of FSI engines come from word of mouth from other owners. Unlike all the companies that I see that are forced to market products with an abundance of graphs and tactics FSI doesn't need to do this to be busier than they want to be. I come from two other companies that depended on fudging numbers and sharing trick plots to get their business and nothing like that is necessary at FSI. I have not seen a single newsletter be sent out while I have been there, even though they have about 19,000 people on their newsletter list. Very seldom do they make any posts on the FSI Facebook. I review the Zoom sales meetings with potential purchasers no one even asks for "data" or a graph of some sort. In the Zoom based sales meetings graphs from all the common Stage I and Stage II engines are shared.They have learned that FSI will deliver by exceeding expectations. They have learned this from friends who send them the way of FSI. Being in this industry for more than two decades I have not seen this with any other product or program. The new program solves the wait times, but I have to say that no one I have encountered here even cares how long it takes to fill their engine order. Last week the owner of the current R43 engine Jake is creating told us "Take as long as you need, I am selling my 2018 GT3 when this engine is done, so keep my car as long as Jake feels is necessary to make it the best experience possible". These are the people that have made FSI shine. We should bow out and let this thread get back on track. I will start a new thread for details of the program when the time comes. That will come in time, but it won't be soon since the primary focus at the present is filling the orders for the existing backlog and making it successfully to what Jake calls the end of the line.

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i will really like to see what pricing would be. Like mike from NY I have a 3.4. I attended and FSI zoom meeting and I was impressed but not sold. I have also talked to vision who uses chromemoly instead of nickasil . Anyway after seeing the cost and realizing that my 3.4 was extremely healthy a friend that currently has his 996.2 at FSI for a 3.6 to a 4.0 rebuilt told me that R engines where like $50k. Anyway In my hunt for fast driving and fast speeds I finished buying an 03 turbo coupe with a lot of nice options and well taken care off. Now I bought an 03 exactly the same way I bought an early 99. The 03 turbo has the g50 trans that does have the second gear pop issue, it�s also the last motor block that it�s stamped made in Germany. With a few mods and not a final tune I would say the car is close to 500 hp. Anyway last Friday when I drove the car with the ac off and psm off i smoke a 2022 camaro ZL1 to 80 mph. I have also had this car to 169 mph and there is plenty left after that. It�s extremely fast and a blast to drive and it isn�t going to blow like an m96/97 engine. Anyway I�m about performance per $$ spent. This car will be further tune and if the turbos,intercoolers and injectors Check out it could be close to almost 600 hp. I�m finding different opinions about how much boost a stock mezger can take, Jake says nothing over 1.1 bar because it will bend the rods and the turbo guys say safely 1.3. Once the tune is done I�ll be $63-64k on the car with 60k miles. I do still love the NA 99 car and a 400 hp 3.8 engine sounds awesome. Maybe one day I will sell one or the other. For now I�m working on modifying the turbo a bit more, while driving both cars at least twice a week. Time to take the 99 out today, take my son to work and go to my favorite watering hole. The dark knight is a serious sleeper. The coolest things about the 03 turbo, kind of unique as the early cable throttle 99s. I like being different.

Quotes source post: 18311111

For what it's worth Jake covers cost of the engines in the first 5 or 10 mins of his webinar. he is very upfront about pricing. This this this. 350whp 300lbft and ABSOLUTE reliability. That's all.

Folks, not certain what exactly the conversation is about, but I do know that without FSI, LN, Porschetech3 and other product manufacturers, we wouldn't have any solutions to solve major issues on the 996. We gotta stop with this bs and move forward. If you don't like their solutions, please by all means develop your own and tell us about it. These threads and posts would be pretty damn slim without talk on any solution. Can you imagine a thread all about problems and someone whining..."if only someone would invent a solution"... Let's move forward.

Quotes source post: 18313199

Just a quick quote frim the first post in this thread. "Anyway, cool data and appreciate FSI putting it up on their channel, go watch it and hopefully people can weigh in with their opinions of the data." No one has attacted anyone personally in this thread or even the other threads that r "hot" right now. We have been trying to discuss the data. Some vendors have decided to chime in with marketing info on what they make with NO data to support there claims. For years vendors have put products in thr market that dont work or without any analytical data and still the community just trusts the accuracy of the marketing. Its not bs, its the community asking for data in the products they push. Just because it makes people uncomfortable it doesnt mean we should stop.

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OH BOY, someone is poking the bear

Quotes source post: 18313199

I remember when FSI was an active member after I bought my 996 2 years ago. It was amazing to interact with the person who has the most experience with the M96 engine. The person who developed the IMS solution and tried to help people prevent bore scoring. Plenty of people (myself included) have proactively replaced their fuel injectors and no longer let their car idle at start up because of FSIs knowledge. Knowledge that was shared for free. But they�re no longer here because they didn�t want to pay for the privilege of dealing with morons who have no intentions of paying for their services. You know, the morons with no experience building a M96 but think they know everything because they have a big wing and a roll bar.

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yet another claim with zero supporting evidence. If you run a business that has an online presence and you refuse to engage a community of prospective customers by disabling comments or dodging what should be easy questions to answer without revealing IP, something is being hidden.

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There�s plenty of supporting evidence that leaking fuel injectors and start up enrichment causes bore scoring. What conclusions have you come to from your vast experience on the M96 concerning bore scoring? Are you the person who developed a way to remove the non serviceable IMS bearing? Perhaps you were the one who found out that bore scoring starts at the bottom so you need to check from the sump.

Quotes source post: 18313682

selectively cherry picking followed by irellavant "what aboutism". typical.

Typical know nothing response � Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.�

I know we live in a somewhat “free” society but an old saying is let the buyer beware I live by this

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you are right boomer, the 996 can't idle or it eats itself.

Quotes source post: 18313729

I can see both sides of the argument but cmon we�re way past the point of a vendor being helpful vs pushing a product in places that didn�t call for it. In that respect I can absolutely see those posts being word vomit. We can agree to disagree but don�t make it seem like people questioning certain aspects of certain posts, in certain areas, isn�t suspect.

Quotes source post: 18313544

Not at all i dont even understand the comment. Im not the one crapping up this thread it started real well with good intentions. The mods have an issue with a thread that didnt break the rules and a forum member that is trying to add facts to the conversation but they continue to allow this garbage in here. Im not taking sides as i dont have a dog in this fight. U may not know this but u put a mezger motor in my car . It was clear that jake didnt want to build a motor for me and i wouldnt have asked. He even offerered encouragement and help. The issue is the blind faith marketing and not facts. Lots of products work and a lot dont, there r also many ways to acheive a goal. The customer should be allowed to question claims made by sponsors. It just seems like there is a cult like following for some products and another subset of people that follow the numbers. Everybody just assumes the 2 sides have to be at odds all the time. in most cases the data is not given because there is no upside as seen earlier in this thread, but when its withheld it raises red flags. I get rennlist has to protect its revenue stream but it should also enforce equally and protect there participants.

Quotes source post: 18313605

I personally have learned a lot from many here. I drive the car right away, I don�t push it pass 3,500 rpms until everything is worm. I had top pison deposits and not bore scoring. I change the oil every 6 months. On both the 99 and the turbo we removed the front bumper and cleaned the radiators properly. Low temp thermostat installed, etc etc. The videos on YouTube are amazing also. I do think that data should be provided and product demonstrations are a most. When I decided to spend $30k for an HPA built on my 04 R32, they let me drive a test mule so that I could see what my car could be like. They had different packages so I tested the bigger single turbo and the twin turbo. If let�s say ln FSI or whoever is going to try to sell me a $50k engine I must definitely would want to test, experience this thing first. I have test driven some expensive cars and yes some dealerships have asked for me to show that I have the funds to make such purchase before the test drive and that�s perfectly fine with me, takes away the tire kickers. Anyway, time for me to start washing the 99 to go to cars and biers. Happy Saturday gang.

Quotes source post: 18313759

lol. you and others appear to me as a shill for Z. He disappears for a bit, you carry on and now watch�.😎 Too bad for me as you all have shared great info. PP forum went through this years back. This place is on same trajectory.

Quotes source post: 18314250

Nope. I dont think its a secret that we r internet friends and we have met at the track. Im just expressing my opinion on recent events from a different perspective. Ill continue to give info to the best of my abilities and to question the status quo if it doesnt feel right. Im not the kind of person that closes his eyes and just walks by when i see something wrong.

Can we now get back to regularly scheduled program the bickering and innuendos are making me drive my M3 more

They turned my account back on. So hi !

What we need is a 997.1 X51 clone air box.

In carbon fiber

Quotes source post: 18314494

There was one made with dual inlets from lid, in all carbon fiber, it used the two small flat X51 filters, I tried the other day to find a photo of it and couldn't locate one. It was back about 7 years ago in the hayday of spending big money on 996 air boxes, with Carbinio, GRuppeM, Fabspeed, Eurocup GT, Evoms, etc.

Quotes source post: 18314494

You mean like this ? This is an R&D airbox from Jake/FSI on my car when we dyno'd on Wednesday . My car was dialed in and considered " done " when it was suggested let's swap this in and do a few pulls . So Jake now has some data to compare my 3.8 Stage II with an OEM 3.8 airbox vs his carbon fiber prototype . We swapped quite a few parts that day Jake has a LOT of parts in development . At this point in time that is all I am allowed to say . But I will say my 388 HP 3.8 will be making more than 400 in the near future 😋 with bolt ons that are being developed by Jake .

Quotes source post: 18314759

So his prototype is a X51 clone which would mean someone already did the Airbox R&D(Porsche).

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/570x427/57_66_e39e447700c53cf0f8818f3786bf6d422112b2d8.jpg

What gives? Thought we weren't talking about parts, just problems?

Quotes source post: 18314759

Since that engine is shown in the car, you were doing chassis dyno pulls?

Quotes source post: 18314775

This is more than a clone. The external shape is retained, as well as how the unit fits into the car aesthetically. Some changes were made to allow the same unit to fit all 996 and 997.1 models without two parts being necessary to span the series. The evaluations now are to see if the advantageous changes made otherwise will require a special rear lid or if the factory unit can still be utilized. That is where it stands. Flow bench work was completed weeks ago. The mold is two piece, so internal volume changes are easy for smaller engines, or engines larger than 4.0L. A pair of panel filters are used, but instead of the filter housings[edit] being plastic (like OE) they are also made of carbon fiber. Units are produced by hand in North Carolina. The plastic filter retention has proved to be difficult so CF is being used in the final parts. Those molds are being made next week.

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Got it and that�s a very interesting piece. I know you can say very little but will this component be sold as an individual piece or a manifold complete system.

That’s damn nice I want it and in

Quotes source post: 18314882

Not sure yet. The main objective has been for it to be the final piece of the FSI induction system that includes plenum, upper manifolds and runners. This one piece may be sold separately, but sales aren't the current focus. FSI engines are out of air and going bigger than 4.3L has been hampered by this. Even the R40 needs more air flow than factory components can deliver. You can see more of Jake's induction development on the FSI FB page where he posts pics from the flow bench while testing. The air box is the one piece that could be sold separately from the full system, since it could be used with existing factory components without negatives. The runners, manifolds and cross section could not be used without the air box, as it is clearly the choke point in the modified induction system. Higher volume than factory runners and upper manifolds with greater volume have a much higher demand for inlet air than the stock airboxes will provide. Careful work has gone into maintaining MAF efficiency. Watch for a Renncast about this once Jake finishes the study around the end of September.

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Hand built carbon fiber disposable items? Definitely too rich for my blood. But then again, I'm a Poors without an FSI engine.

This is the Air Box I was trying to an image of

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That should have read "panel housings". The filter elements are just a Mann paper filter that can be bought at a local parts house.

Quotes source post: 18314759

I'll be looking forward to hearing more about the availability - you and I have the same build/performance and I'm *super* interested in the better breathing parts.

Had time to read the thread and collect the data. I didn't make entries for the conversion from mass air flow (i.e. chemical horsepower potential) to estimated mechanical HP (Porschetech3's 0.75 efficiency number), nor did I enter the Motorsports Standard Atmosphere conversion values. Maybe in the next version, but here's what's been provided so far, grouped by engine Old 12-20-2020, 12:10 AM # 234 jdbornem Rennlist Member jdbornem's Avatar Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 391 Likes: 61 Received 251 Likes on 131 Posts DefaultHad time to read the thread and collect the data. I didn't make entries for the conversion from mass air flow (i.e. chemical horsepower potential) to estimated mechanical HP (Porschetech3's 0.75 efficiency number), nor did I enter the Motorsports Standard Atmosphere conversion values. Maybe in the next version, but here's what's been provided so far, grouped by engine size: And here's SI units, if you're into that sort of thing... (which I usually am): I can post the text/xls if anyone is actually interested. Old 12-20-2020, 08:54 AM # 235 02Z06 Racer 02Z06's Avatar Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 275 Likes: 7 Received 18 Likes on 13 Posts DefaultNice bit of work. It's a shame we didn't get a bigger sampling of cars. Old 01-25-2021, 08:54 AM # 240 Flat6 Innovations Former Vendor Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Cleveland Georgia Posts: 6,969 Likes: 1 Received 2,241 Likes on 879 Posts DefaultAdding injector duty cycle to this would be exceptional.. This was done a year and a half ago...in a thread name "MAF Value= Horsepower Potential" The Fabspeed intake shown here by Mbren1979 clearly shows higher than expected MAF reporting, and was examined and "theorized" to be over-reporting MAF due to smaller cross-section, and as backed up by rtl5009 measurements/calculations to be 4% smaller, which would lead to over-reporting by 4% and also a richer A/F ratio by 4% ( until/unless the DME can re-calibrate ) which would give a lower power output as seen in the video..The only way to confirm would be a "redundant MAF Sensor" placed at the throttle body in series..This would confirm whether the MAF Sensor was "over-reporting" ( due to smaller cross-section) or there was an actual increase in air flow due to a reduction of restriction or some other phenomenon of harmonic resonance.. As BRS-LN correctly stated ,Everyone has a "rolling dyno" at your disposal with just a straight road and a $20-$100 dongle and App, and the know-how to use/evaluate it...things that were never available "back in the day"..

Quotes source posts: 18315103, 17105909, 17106294, 17187640

I have seen more than one engine at FSI that had AFR balanced by speed density rather than MAF. It is an older method, but it gets away from MAF issues in scenarios where the MAF cannot be used. MAFs from other engines can be used as well, if things are balanced properly. Above 4.1L things change dramatically based on what I've seen so far. Having the proper diameter of tubing at the MAF position, as well as proper MAF location in the intake tract are the two things that are left out of the design of most aftermarket systems.

Quotes source post: 18315134

I agree, the diameter of the housing and position of the Sensor is very important , also you cannot use a MAF Sensor to evaluate "Its self/air box", that's why I said a redundant MAF Sensor is the only way to positively confirm.. Unless of course you are designing a new system, and the DME calibration to match it... I was speaking in terms of "bolt-on" air boxes, that would require no re-calibration of the DME..

Wow all this tech talk gives me a woodie and a headache at the same time I have to go hit the books to comprehend all of this 😂

Quotes source post: 18315161

The MAF readings are being used on the flow bench as well. Between 25-28" test depression the readings are very similar as long as barometric pressure isn't super far off the day of the test. All it takes is a 996 parked next to the Superflow 1020 bench and a jumper wire leading to the MAF of the system being tested. The MAF location and cross sectional area 2" before and 2" after the MAF location is huge. Jake has gone crazy with induction studies. He's pulling silicone molds of every section of every intake tract for all 17 M9X engine designations. He sent me these today. I'd say he's enjoying being sick since he can't have any stress and stays behind the curtain.

there's a lot going on. These motors do extremely well considering you have to get in to the intake at 90 degrees and turn the corner https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blo...r-head-design/

Quotes source post: 18315460

I think Jake is happiest when he�s learning something new. I bet Jake will be happiest focusing mainly on R&D going forward. The benefits of Jake fully testing everything until he believes there�s no more to learn are astronomical to LN. Looking forward to future Jake developed products from LN.

Sorry for the 3 year thread revival... Did we ever get a definitive answer on whether the 997 3.8L airbox was a performance upgrade over the standard 3.4/3.6L 996 airbox? I didn't want to read all 30 pages... I have the 997 3.8L box but am considering returning to the standard just because I want the original box for the car.

I see no reason to remove a functioning 997 airbox. While performance gains are probably minimal, it still looks a lot better. There's no upside to swapping back IMO.

Quotes source post: 19953816

I'm not a big fan of the look, to be honest, IMO the engine doesn't need to say Porsche or 3.8L - if there are no performance gains I'll just put my original box back in.

Bumping for an update/ intake update as well!

Quotes source post: 19958736

Nothing new has been released as far as I know. I've just seen some pictures of the new intake.

� IMO the engine doesn't need to say Porsche or 3.8L � Unless it actually IS a 3.8�