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YOUR RESEARCHEngine died on 2001 996 Cab. What now?
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Install by ralph lauren�s personal mechanic
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
IMS was installed by Ralph Lauren�s personal mechanic.
Check hardness of a used cylinder, especially closer
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Suggestion
If you check the hardness of a used cylinder, especially closer to the cylinder head, you'll find that a used cylinder that has been in service for an extended period will be much lower than a new cylinder.
Leading evidence: 'Install by ralph lauren�s personal mechanic' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'softer the aluminum has become' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check hardness of a used cylinder, especially closer' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Installed a catch can to catch oil vapor hoping that the oil is just from the PCV system and not a turbo seal.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Oh in that case I'm sure it was installed correctly
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Installer did not register it :-( Know he has installed others and rebuilt engines.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Needs to be replaced around 7 years and or specific mileage.
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Check hardness of a used cylinder, especially closer
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Suggestion
If you check the hardness of a used cylinder, especially closer to the cylinder head, you'll find that a used cylinder that has been in service for an extended period will be much lower than a new cylinder.
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93 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Outcome without a verified action link
In my opinion, you already have a heavy investment in getting the car running, and the $3800 contingency is nothing compared to the loss of selling it as a roller and still having to pay this mechanic $11,200 for his time and parts.
Well my car died. No warning whatsoever. No leaks. Oil looks good. Coolant level and color are good. Think it was a timing chain issue. Had just driven for over 30 minutes of casual driving and ran smooth as usual. Parked at the community mailbox and shut it off. Got back in and started it up. Sounded normal until I started driving up the hill to the road and it made a whir kind of noise like something was dragging under the car. Pushed in clutch and rolled back and it made a loud pop and quit running. Will not turn over not sure if engine is locked up or not. Just pushed it back out the way and left it. Have a good independent shop about 2 hours away. Plan on having it towed to him once I talk to him. Of course it happened in the evening. Car has 118k+ miles is in decent shape with upgraded ROW M030 suspension. Have extra wheels and hard top. Would it be best to drop the engine and have it rebuilt? Want to keep the car and drive for another 10+ years. It is my daily driver but my son is taking a gap semester from college and have another car I can drive. How long and where to get engine rebuilt/sourced. Guessing these are interference engines so expecting the worst. What expense am I looking at for a solid rebuild with needed/recommended upgrades. Was guessing around $10k for engine rebuild. Want to keep costs down if possible as my wife�s car has 200k on it and will need replacing within a year and need to save for that. Wasn�t planning for my car to die 1st ughh. What steps should I take in this whole process? TIA
I hear this "dragging a chain noise" comment a lot in trouble calls. It can also sound like marbles in a tin can...
Have you performed an IMS retrofit on this engine?
Not to jump to conclusions, but this type of noise is almost always linked to an issue with IMS Bearing failure in my tech chats.
That ceramic bearing kit is the highest cost, having the shortest and most restrictive warranty of all the IMSB options along with quite a few failures reported. Related parties now will likely tell you "it's something else" like a chain or brake fluid, etc.
Anyway, hope you pulled over in time and can salvage the engine, or, even better, it's something not so bad.
Anybody interested in buying? Has BBS 2 piece factory option 993 wheels. Have a spare set of Cayman S wheels with winter tires. Manual transmission. Flywheel and clutch where replaced when IMS done. Hate to sell it but seems like the best thing to do in my situation. If you have a 2015-17 Maserati Ghibli Q4 to part trade, even better.
Have some more info. Just towed the car home. Jacked up the rear tires and put in 6th gear. Both wheels turn free with no resistance. Engine does turn over but does not start. Sounds like it tries to misfire but no grinding or any other noise. Think I will try and get it to the shop and get him to diagnose.
Just called my indy shop and he happens to be driving past my area with an empty trailer since he just dropped off some cars at a concourse and was heading back to his shop. My timing worked out well. Hopefully the car’s timing is also still good.
Just got the news and it was a timing chain failure. No compression on one bank. Getting a full rebuild. Car will be better than new once finished. I’m excited!
$10k was quote and what I was hoping for. After looking at Vertex rebuilds for $16k and used ebay for $10k was very discouraged and ready to dump it and buy a Giulia or Ghibli. Everything worked out as I hoped.
Well, look closely at what is being proposed to be sure what they are planning to do. Also, there are some "while you are in there" things (like UAOS, IMS Solution) that you should consider. Good luck!
I'll have $25 in my engine rebuild and I'm doing all the work myself. this seems like a really low price, which is good, but what does it include. I'd be concerned about all the plastic bits on top of the engine. They are all very brittle.
So many points of failure on these engines. Check everything out while the engine is out.
Best,
That's an insane price unless you're 3.8-4.0 displacement which case you can buy 997S brand new motor - cost was about $25k .
Porsche shortblock is $9k, that's for 3.4 or 3.6 or 3.8 + add full power kit (cyl heads, cams, intake, header + much more) is $16k.
https://www.onlineporscheparts.com/o...6l-996100996xx
X51 kit
If it was $10k as a quote, or if you speak my language, an estimate, then I'd expect that number to rise once your dude sees how prices have moved over the last 18 months.
I hope I'm wrong for your sake.
He said at least $10k. Expecting more up to $12. He has machine shop and doesn’t have to farm out. Has worked on stuff before and is very reasonable for labor. Works on a lot of high end stuff. Astons, Ferraris, etc. Is capable and trustworthy. Calls with updates, documents work with pictures, etc. afraid there might be more once he gets the engine torn down. If it is too much might just go with an Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Sport. Fun, practical car. Hopefully a bit better than Ghibli.
If you're already in there, I'd recommend going out to 3.8. My 2001 had an IMS go so I decided I wanted to save the car. Was very happy with my decision to go to 3.8, but then you have to keep it...
Ughh. Still waiting. About $12k so far. He had a friend’s Fiat for over a year with a rebuild. He had been very quick in the past. Guessing he has taken on more than he can chew at the moment. Had a good German car mechanic closer to home, but he got so busy it was ridiculous. Same fate might have to my Italian guy. Not sure what to do in the mean time. Picked up a 2015 Lincoln MKS ecoboost to drive around for now. Lots more room but nowhere near as fun to drive :-(
New update. Mechanic sent pics of disassembled engine. IMS did fail. Was a LNE ceramic. Also looks like one of the timing chain guides broke. Lots of carbon build up on the pistons/combustion chamber. Will be a while before it is back on the road by the looks of things.
have no idea. It failed at low rpm pulling away from mailbox going 5mph. Made noise like something was dragging on the ground. Then loud bang and it quit running.
Ugly pictures. Makes me curious about the LNE ceramic bearing. It doesn't appear as though they offer it anymore.
EDIT: I take that back. Apparently all of their bearing-type retrofits use hybrid ceramic ball bearings.
LN retro is not a permanent solution. Needs to be replaced around 7 years and or specific mileage. Has worked well for me since I will have the engine dropped from time to time to have my indy go over it. Easy enough to replace the Retro at that time as well as rms, clutch and flywheel if needed. Most would be better served with the Solution.
Sent the IMS receipt to mechanic. He said he will contact LNE and at least try to get a refund for the bearing. Purchased in 2018. Will see what happens. Now have some things to worry about for my DD. 2015 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost. Changed plugs and found oil in inter cooler pipe. Installed a catch can to catch oil vapor hoping that the oil is just from the PCV system and not a turbo seal. If seal, will be upgrading turbines to billet. Power transfer case is also on list of things to work on. Going to drill a drain hole and tap for plug so lube can be changed. Seems like Ford also had some issues with mechanical design.
Well this suck$ bad, so sorry.
This is way to common an occurrence at <100k miles (or on some engines much less miles) for a brand like Porsche, manufacturing this time bomb for over a decade knowing about this problem, along with all the other catastrophic engine problems this platform historically suffers from. Disappointing to see this type of German engineering, supposedly the best in the world...? Some say this is a direct result of the 'Porsche bean counters'. Well guess the bean counters were successful as this era in Porsche history proves to be very profitable and some would say successful... I'm an M E, so this is not my take on success...
Well, I'll give my failure analysis (2cents worth)...Tthe chain dragging, dragging sounds, marbles rattling in tin can, etc... all sounds from the last cry of imsb going south... When the imsb gets lose enough( or comes apart) it lets the chain bind maybe break or cause a guide to break up, maybe just jams the shaft . As soon as the chain binds up/breaks, shaft/chains stops spinning, and cams get out of sync with pistons, engine stops suddenly never to start again till 25-$75k is spent at a qualified Porsche indy shop, or an industrious owner does a diy rebuild for 15k or more. Or a 15k, LS or 2.7T engine swap
1) imsb comes apart or throws out *****/rollers etc, and gets loose enough to bind things up.
2) the shafts (cams,ims) then stop spinning with the crank probably doing an extra 1/2dozen revolutions till valves jam up on pistons with possible/probable catastrophic engine damage
3)This isn't like what came first, the egg or the chicken, nope. The imsb finnally 'hatched' and caused probable catastrophic engine damage imho...
jmo
B) any ball bearing that is pressfit in place can be damaged during install if not done correctly, the races can easily be pitted and the bearing will have a short life.
Don't know about this case but I've seen plenty of YouTube video of "mechanics" hammering bearings into place via the inner race
"Getting a full rebuild. Car will be better than new once finished."...This is simply not true. Most of the time rebuilds have issue that will require multiple trips to the mechanic afterwards, furthermore, other things can break during the rebuild process. Additionally, it's not only about the skills of the rebuilder but also the quality of the parts. Unfortunately, most rebuilds are disappointing. Lot's of threads online titled "engine problems after rebuild". Be realistic, not overly optimistic.
LN Engineering has a fact sheet on its site.
Fact 9.
To date, there are no confirmed failures of qualified installations of the dual row ceramic bearings used in the Single Row Pro IMS Retrofit, Classic Dual Row IMS Retrofit kits, or of the pressure oil fed plain bearing IMS Solution.
Did they mean to say there are no failures within the warranty time and mileage? Replacement for the first version was 4 years. 6 years and 75K miles for the newer.
For those of us riding on the Retrofit, please keep us up on this story.
Single row pro IMS kit was purchased 3/18/21 for $899. Inflation. I would have gone with the Solution for another $1k, but I was looking at 20 hours of labor for a lot of other things and the extra $1K just wasn't there. Bought the '02 Carrera sight unseen from Porsche dealer, had it trailered from Chicago and had my indy build a needs list and execute. Cautionary tale for old car buyers. 20 year old car budget for a 996 is 25 hours of labor and more if you own a cab. But I love my car and it is a show winner, I track it, autox and drive daily in the season.
No that means they have not accepted a warranty claim. Even if you go the "certified installer" route there are so many gotchas in the warranty. Read it it's comicaly written, so they can make a claim like that. It's like the sign "best Chinese food" It's a fine product but don't kid yourself that it comes with a warranty.
OK. Decision time! Mechanic needs/wants $2500 more to continue. $11,200 into it with $8500 in parts and the rest in labor. Has 100 hrs time already. Says total to finish $15,000. Have no choice but to continue as I see it. End result = ? Hopefully will have a running car that can at least be sold to recoup expenses. Other option is to take it and sell as a roller + try to sell the parts. Don’t really have the space for a non-running car. What to do?
$15K less $8.5K of parts leaves $6,5K for 100 hours of labor?! $65/hour? Where is this shop? I'm on my way!
Yeah, if you can come out of this for only $15K, go for it.
have a feeling it will end up being more, but hopefully not too much more. He has been very reasonable in the past with other work he has performed. He loves working on cars. He has also owned 996. Had one as his shop car. I bit the bullet and said proceed.
Was the LN bearing registered by the last installer? Was the shop a certified LN installer?
In my opinion, you already have a heavy investment in getting the car running, and the $3800 contingency is nothing compared to the loss of selling it as a roller and still having to pay this mechanic $11,200 for his time and parts. Finish the car and then enjoy it OR sell it to someone for market price.
Don't remember how many miles are on your car/cylinders. Does that $15k include cylinder sleeves (nickies) ? or are they rebuilding with your stock bore loco-sil cylinders and your used pistons/rings...?
The general consensus among the most experienced expert 996 engine builders, at 100k miles (many engines with a lot less miles) all loco-sil blocks are so so far out of round and tapered new rings have a very slim if any chance of seating/sealing.
Was just a thread on this and Charles from LN explained it very well as did Porschetech3.
Might want to ask your engine builder for the measurements he's done on your block for out of round and taper. Curious what he says...
The Certification and required training is the same for all IMS products. A Certified Installer for the IMS Solution is also Certified for all IMS retrofit and LN products. The IMS Solution is the top tier product in the IMS Retrofit lineup, so any shop that meets the criteria, attends the training, and maintains their status is certified for the entire range of IMS Retrofit product installations.
"Super Certified Installers" double as trained Certified Installers for Flat 6 Innovations engines that are sold, and supported by LN Engineering, as well as all IMS Retrofit products.
There are no Certifications for just the Single Row Pro, or classic single/ dual row, or RND bearings. Any shop that would be certified in these would also be certified for the IMS Solution product.
Mr. Raby is in the process of training around a dozen more shops at this time that will be added to the list, if they finish the process and pass the evaluations.
I hope this helps you understand things better.
Correct. The wear limit per Porsche is .0031" for ovality and taper.
New pistons give me concern on two fronts. If they are using new Porsche replacements, they are expensive, but they are the only ones that are compatible with the stock Lokasil bores. If they are using aftermarket pistons, none of them are compatible with the stock bores.
if the bores are at or beyond the wear limit, the new rings won't seat either.
Very good recommendation on asking the builder to measure the bores. The other issue you have is that even if they measure correctly, you don't know if the silicon matrix is compromised. When there aren't enough exposed (and unfractured silicon particles) to support the tribofilm that is required for the pistons and rings, that's when the bores score.
Don't know if this is a question for you or Mr Raby..?
We all know now thanks to you guys and others about the structual problems of the 996 blocks, the way way out of round by 100k in more or less all of them,some a lot less miles have bad out of round.
So, my question to you, knowing you don't sell this option, and its a much more attractive option price wise, if a block is not damaged, just out of round beyond specs,
can a quality re-nik job by MT or US Chrome after they prep and round out the cyl again, then apply their great real nik plate job, can this reconditioned block last for another 50k..? 75k..? 100k miles, before going out of round again, or will it stay round with the new nik job...? We already know with a good set of Mahle/JE/etc. pistons and a MT real nik job, bore score is not a problem any longer.
You never answered my question fully in the last thread about this. I'll repeat,
does the out of round occur from actual bore wear like most every other engine, or does the block actually warp out of round even with the head clamped down (torqued) correctly..?
I personally would not use US Chrome. I have had several talks with them and have tried using them and the results have not been good. We have also had to repair M96 blocks that have been done by them and have even seen some that were damaged beyond our ability to repair them.
The only blocks I would trust a direct plate job is a 2.5 (as long as it has enough time on it that a slipped sleeve isn't an issue), 2.7, and 3.2. All 3.4, 3.6, and 3.8 models can and do crack, so direct plating doesn't address this.
I'll also add that the surface finish you get from us will be different that if you send your block to Millennium direct.
The other issue is that the dissimilar materials in the bores compound these issues (the Lokasil portion with silicon particles is about .250" thick and the rest of the block's parent metal is plain 'ol aluminum). That's why we remove all the existing cylinder liner with our process, with exception of the parent metal on the crankcase side which we use to support and locate the new sleeve.
For reference, the factory Lokasil block when new was perfectly round in free air with no ovality or taper in the bores. The ovality and taper is from wear and also from degradation of the material, similar to what we see on aircooled Porsche cylinders.
As direct plating of the stock bores isn't really a viable option, I can't give you any feedback on longevity of a direct plated block, but from what I can tell you on aircooled cylinders if they are beyond the wear limit, the bores do not stay round even after reconditioning. From what I have been told by engine builders, you can expect about half the service life of a reconditioned factory aluminum cylinder compared to a new one. If you check the hardness of a used cylinder, especially closer to the cylinder head, you'll find that a used cylinder that has been in service for an extended period will be much lower than a new cylinder. This goes for any aluminum cylinder, Mahle included. In fact, we won't recondition a stock cylinder or even ours if they are over the acceptable wear limit or if they have been subject to overheating, detonation, or any other condition that has compromised the integrity of the cylinder. I believe this all to some extend is applicable to the Lokasil block. I would presume if you could do a hardness test on the parent metal that supports the Lokasil portion of the bore compared to a new block you'd find the hardness will have dropped. I'll go further on a limb and say that the further a bore is out of round, probably the softer the aluminum has become.
I hope this answers your questions.
I would just like to add while on the subject of Locasil that all the blame should not be placed on Porsche for the as reported "screwed the pooch" Locasil process in the m96 engine.
Locasil is a process from Kolbenschmidt ( the big Kahuna in aluminum blocks/pistons, hard parts,ect. for over 100 years) ..I'm sure it took quite a lot of convincing to get Porsche to decide to use their process in the "new watercooled m96 engine"....and has been the only engine that has used this process...
And I'm sure Kolbenschmidt did all the testing necessary to convince Porsche of all the benefits of this process , and Porsche, like customary, was willing to push the boundaries for increased performance ( and why we love the Brand, they are not afraid to push the boundaries) ...So what went wrong with Locasil and who is to blame? Well we have seen and documented what does/can go wrong. I think both Porsche and Kolbenschmidt share the blame equally......
My theory is the silica particles that are embedded in the cylinder wall have poor bonding to the main aluminum of the casting. So the higher the % of silica the weaker the aluminum. Over many hot/cold heat cycles and pressure from combustion the aluminum is too thin to resist warping.
They probably did static tension strength measurements on hot and cold lokasil and used those values to calculate the wall thickness of the cylinders.
if they had used thicker walls or formed the silica just in the surface where needed not thru the entire cylinder wall the problem probably wouldn't happen
Dryslick I’m afraid your mechanic, while well intentioned, is out of his depth with respect to rebuilding your M96. Even with my limited knowledge it’s obvious that putting new pistons and rings in your old bores is an epic fail. Going forward with this will only lead to disappointment IMHO. You are in a bit of a bind here as you’re already in pretty deep. Only you know what your budget and patience for this project will allow. If I were in your situation I’d be looking at the Porsche factory long block option. That way you could use your existing short block as a core, send out the heads for rebuild, hopefully use some of the parts you’ve already paid for, and perhaps your mechanic will credit you for some of the time already spent leading you down the wrong path. It’s probable your mechanic has the skills to assemble the top end and reinstall your engine. The other option would be to go the LN Nickies route and have your guy do the entire assembly but I can’t believe you’ll get away for under $25k if it’s done correctly. Last resort would be to install a “good used” engine or just pull the plug and sell the entire mess as a project. I would not, however, continue the path you are on. This is the M96 dilemma…..there are no “good, cheap” options. Good luck with whatever you decide and please keep us posted on how it all turns out…
FWIW,, Subaru's share many similar issues when tweeked up to higher power levels,
Bore score and oval-ing is pretty common in some bikes and boat motors..
Coincidentally if you take your current estimate, and add the charge for nickies,
You right at the price LN has for a complete motor...
You can also go through Hartech's affiliate shop in Canada and get their engine treatment, which I believe is close to the same price..
My 03 996 had expected bore oval, and cracks in 2 cylinders that we think were related to a associated AOS failure over pressuring the 2 cylinders.
I feel the pain man.. Good Luck
Engine did have that at expiration. Not sure if he replaced the sleeves or not. Looks like they might have been. His English is not great as he moved here from Italy recently.
Based on playing with carts and dirt bikes, those cylinders have "just" enough wear to make me wonder.. Awful deep in the engine rabbit hole to turn back now..
'Vapour Blasting/Cleaning" leaves a semi Matt Chiny clean surface that looks like good silver paint was used..
If the post cleaning cleanup is not done well, bad things happen.
I’m curious to know if the builder is measuring the bores and what the results are…. And is he just doing rings or new pistons too? Isn’t the deterioration of the piston skirt coating a major contributing factor to bore scoring? Sending the case out for Nickies seems more than prudent at this point.
