Researching the 996

I've been reading up on the 996 and its various potential problems. The IMS issues is the big attention getter for sure. I've been reading up on that and on possible preventative maintenance (replacing the bearing wiht a ceramic one, etc.). My research has now shifted to "what if it all goes wrong anyway and the motor goes boom?" I'm seeing that new porsche motors are $17k and require an $18k core charge? Wow. I currently track a miata, which is the consumate cheap track car. If my engine blows, I can grab a spare used one for $5-600 or so and be back on track with no major drama. After searching the net, I was expecting to see threads about how you can grab a used engine for $6k or so and pay another $1.5k and get the 996 back on its feet. Is that not the case? I *think* I could handle replacing an engine for $7k if it was a rebuilt, good to go motor. But if it's way worse than that, I don't think I'm up for that at this time... I'd love to have a C2, but I'm trying to go into this with open eyes... And, for proof that I'm a p-car fan, I'm attaching a picture of my miata track car. Thanks

IMO and at work watching files run... If you're buying one used pay attention to how it sounds, how it feels, and what it does. If you buy one that sounds great, doesn't smoke, and drives well then you can start to get around some of the rebuild issues you may have otherwise encountered. If you're really concerned about the bearing, and can do work yourself, and are using it as a track car, then it may be worth buying the best one you can and dropping the engine as soon as it's home. Then there aren't as big of worries about anything, and you have a chance at that point to do work or upgrade things as needed.

I should have mentioned that it would just be a daily driver with no track time. The miata is the track car. I'm trying to understand how much $ an IMS failure ends up costing.

MoonieGT, no $7k engine replacement is not the case for 996. $10k+ is the low end of the scale. Jake Raby charges $20k+ for his rebuilds. There are people on this board who lost engines at 20k miles, at 100k miles and anywhere in-between. Some going fast, others while idling, others because they live up-north. IMS is just one of the issues that can take out your engine. There are at least couple of threads on the first page about people who lost their motors, and those were low mileage and well maintained cars. Coming from the Japanese-car background, the reality of the 996 ownership will be a bit of a shock. Everything on the 996 is much more expensive than on the miata. On a lot of 996s, engine now costs more than the car.

I would budget ~$15k for a used/rebuilt engine replacement. Jake is like Ruf/AMG so it will cost you but there are other shops that rebuild M96 engines.

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I'm paying just under $2k to have a shop replace mine as well as check up on a few other things. It's a lot cheaper than rebuilding an engine.

I certainly didn't expect any parity in the pricing for the miata and the 996. I was hoping for a 10x increase. It's looking to be more of a 30x or more increase on replacement engine pricing. Tire, rotor, brake pad, oil change pricing appears to be doable, but not the engine. In the battle of the head vs heart, my head may have to prevail.

If you pick up a 996 for $25K, you may have an awesome 911 to drive for many years. Unfortunately, there is a chance, albiet not a massive chance, that your engine will suffer some kind of failure. Maybe it'll be a problem that only requires a $4-5K "repair" - new bearings, for example, and maybe it'll be the kind that adds an extra hole to the block and/or turns the stuff inside into really expensive oily metal scrap. If the engine dies spectacularly, your options are a used engine (market price), a refurbished engine ($10K+), a completely rebuilt engine($$$$$), selling the car as a roller (you get $5-6K back), and something wacky like an LSx transplant (totally unrealistic if you're in a state with smog *****). If owning an awesome $80-100K car for $20-30K is worth the potential risk, there is a lot of 996 inventory out there. If you are not risk-tolerant in this manner, sticking with imports and/or something you can drop a Chevy crate motor into may be preferable. Incidentally, asking this question in this manner rather than looking for assurance that something awful will never happen to YOUR car is preferable. As often as not, people show up here, read about possible issues, buy a car anyway, and then start posting threads either pleading for non-existent evidence indicating that their specific 996 will never have any issues, or (more entertainingly) belligerently insisting that any publicized 996-related issues are lies. All lies! I prefer your approach. Ultimately, it comes down to what you want. If you want a 300HP sports car, there are loads of them out there. If you want a 911, though, the 996 is an incredible buy.

I thought racers = risk takers? Schnell summed it up pretty well.

I'm a 2-3 HPDE events a year guy. My risk taking is minimal and is further insulated by driving one of the cheaper track cars in existance. I could buy another miata and upgrade the car with tires, wheels, suspension, roll bar etc for what it sounds like a replacement 996 engine goes for More research to be done. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

$7K is what you might pay for a used motor with no guarantee that it will be any better than yours was the day before it quit.

It's fun to imagine what you could do with $15K @ FlyinMiata...

The other car(s) on my short list of relatively affordable German cars is the M3. The e46 has its share of issues (vanos, rear sub frame), but may actually be affordable (but not cheap) to fix compared to the 996. The e90 M3 is tempting, but it has a big $ motor in it as well. But a high reving V8...

There's no substitute....

No argument there. A friend has had: 996 Turbo S Cab, 997 Turbo Cab, 997 GT3, 991 GT3 (current car). They're all magnificent. I've been a Porsche fan since about 15 years old (34 in a month). I keep thinking that someday I'll pick up a used one. 996s are very affordable at first glance. I'm fine with the general maintenance costs, and even with paying $4k in preventative IMS work... but knowing that it will be 5 figures if the car has a bad day is a tough pill to swallow.

Depending on how deep your pockets are, a 996 turbo isn't THAT much more expensive...

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But then, you'd have 2 Miatas. Even 10 Miatas do not a Porsche 911 make.

One can't own two Miatas unless one also has a salon with free door-to-door service. Sorry, OP, but you can't get away without a single Miata dig. FWIW, I used to have a Boxster, so I understand your dilemma.

(the dilemma, of course, is "which scarf do I wear today?")

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I just spit my drink out in laughter. JW Blue no less... LOL

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The best thing about going from the 996 to the 997 is that I don't accidentally waive to Boxster owners anymore.

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The e46 m3 is a great buy right now. Don't be put off on the vanos and sub-frame. Most well maintained cars would have both done by now by current owners. It's a great car especially if you find a good maintained model... Many to choose from. I highly recommend.

Relax, 996's are bullet proof.

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Hehe. Now that the car is Signal Green, it really limits scarf color choices. So that decsion is made a bit easier these days

My view is that if you buy one and do the IMS, AOS, low temp thermostat, new water pump, spin on filter, magnetic drain plug, you've given your self a good chance of ending up like the majority of owners who do NOTHING and get one to two hundred thousand miles on it. No guarantee but the odds get pretty good. These were expensive cars when new and now they can be bought relatively cheap so IMO they are a great risk.

MoonieGT, I've owned a 1999 996, currently own a 2002 996 with 117,900 miles on it, no engine issues what so ever on either. If you are constantly worried about everything that could go wrong, you will never be able to enjoy the car. Maintenance will be, on average, $2-3k per year. Some years less, some years more. NOTHING is cheap. Maybe save two more years and buy a turbo? Maybe go for a Corvette? For $24k you can get a bad *** corvette. (I've also owned a 2002 vette) They are fast! No doubt best bang for the buck. But I'm not a vette guy, BMW and Porsche fits me better.

This is all just the beginning of the dialog...don't let the horror stories frighten you away...take the time to digest all the information. If you don't mind my asking, what is your working budget to buy a car and give it whatever deferred maintanence it needs in the first month of ownership. If you aren't rich you are playing risk management. That can be fun and sometimes that can become expensive. Since time is not of the essence I would recommend that your read "996 The Essential Companion"...used copies are available on Amazon and around. It is a 600 page coffee table size book that explores the designs of each generation of the car, discusses all the "issues," and when combined with the treads here will give you all the facts and fiction you could ever ask for. When a new Golf R goes for $40k + t&l...a 996 at $22k to $25k looks great on the surface. And if you are good with a wrench a lot of the maintanence easy to do, especially on a 996. But get some back issues of Panorama, find a local Porsche group and see who their sources are...read all the engine rebuilds on this forum. And finally tell any children you have or are planning to have, to suck it up and pay for their own college and do something you really want to do. And of course when you put together a real budget...perhaps you'd like to spend a touch more money and move up to the 996tt or a 997.2. I'm happy with my 996 (no preventive IMS work done) and it is my daily driver. I'd hate to spend $15k on a motor...but I'm mentally prepared for it if it happens. I wouldn't sell my car as a roller, I like it to much. I'd rather just give it the new motor and then enjoy it.

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Totally agree there - amazing car on the track (and street). My 996 is in the shop right now for an engine replacement - $12K for the replacement with core exchange plus about $2500 labour for the swap. Can't wait to get back in the driver's seat and hear that flat six scream!

ps - avoid PDK...it is a cross between a video game and a condom.

MoonieGT, I bought I used 996 C2 cab in great shape for a good price, drove it for 20k miles with no problems. I am in a middle of my diy intermix repair like soooo many other folks have been. I am actually enjoying working on it. Lots of help from folks on the boards, lots of info like wsm and pet available, and parts are actually easy to get - some even less expensive than parts for my....okay so that part I can't finish. Lastly, even with the issues you have heard, it is still a well built car that is easy to work on particularly since it is relatively easy to drop the engine.

All I'll say is you only live once. Still waiting for the right moment to rent a yacht and 5 beautiful girls. Or I'll settle for a suite in Las Vegas with hookers and blow.

We have some great literature on the IMS issue here at our tech article: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...MS_Bearing.htm Pelican has developed a kit, which is designed to replace the factory bearing with a very similarly manufactured bearing (with an improved seal and updated center bolt). -Luccia

how on earth are there comparisons between 911 and some japcrap even possible? no matter how good the miata might be, it is no match for a sportscar with all the technology and pedigree behind it. so comparing the running costs is simply ridiculous. one could as well compare it with a Ferrari or Mclaren... Miatas rivals ar civic and golf maybe e30 (although I doubt that last one) yes I have driven the miata...

Read Andrew's post near the top of the forum. His engine broke, he found another motor and put it in the car. Good reasons to buy a 996...price (obvious so I put it forst but not the most important reason)...the entire gestalt of the car...it just drives like nothing else...the sound of the engine is like no other... 996 interiors are very nicely layed out...driving a 996 makes you forget about turning on your radio... driving a 996 is unique to the model, different from both the 993 and 997 and with an edge of its own...996s are relatively easy to work on wihich allows you to save money on service costs...996s have a beautiful piece of design, the headlights (examine them up close) that will come back to haunt those who mocked them...the 996 is a significant part of Porsche history, as big a change as the 911 itself...there are tens of thousands of 996 owners who have never heard of an IMS and are continuing to enjoy their cars every day...a 996 loves to be loved, let the engine warm up and slowly feed the loud pedal so that it begs you to give it more...996s love to be washed by their owners... 996s might be considered the last of the analog Porsches. There isn't a car out there that can't turn around and bite. If you've always wanted to own a 911 Porsche there isn't a better time or model to start with.

Your "worst case" happened to me. Within the first year I had a blown engine and faced the decision to replace it, upgrade to a Raby or other, or sell the car. I decided to replace the engine with a lower mileage 3.6L M96, which was less than $10k. Labor and all else for the engine swap, plus quite a few other components ran another $3-4k, but I could have trimmed that down. The old engine does have some value. I sold it to Jake Raby, and while I won't divulge how much, it was better than I expected for a blown engine. That helped offset the cost.

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Agree whole heartedly w/ John here. Even after having my engine blow and being out of pocket an additional ~$12k, I'd still buy another 996.

The simple fact is they are one of the most fun driving cars ever made. They always look good. They can be bought by regular folks as at this time they are not expensive. There is a fix available for the most common problem which turns out not to be that common after all. You'll feel on top of the world when you drive it.

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I've owned one that wass a one owner low km car with full BMW service history. Never again. These cars are quite probably the most flawed BMW to ever leave the factory. A quick list of known issues: subframe, not if, when. Vanos, not if, when. Head gasket (4mm between bores with no cooling jackets between) not if, when. Rod bearings, grinding diffs, crap cooling system, suspension that lasts 30,000km, poor brakes and if you get an SMG that just adds another level of drama. Do not buy one unless you have $15K to make it solid. Glad I'm back in a Porsche.

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I think somewhere there is a current BMW M3(ex Porsche) owner saying the same thing about the Porsche. Everyone's experience is gonna vary(for whatever reason) and it's not really fair to attribute all cars into the same negative stereotype IMO. For the record, I've never run across any of the said issues during my M3 ownership.

Not to sound like a snob, I've owned many jap "sports" cars and "sports compacts" modded/stock. and I'm still a huge fan of japanese imports but no ****ing way you can compare a Miata with a 911. Blasphemy!!! I say good day to you sir!

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OP, the PDK in a 996 is a rare find. If you do locate one, it's almost sure to be in a scrap yard, with the PDK in the 996's front trunk for safe keeping.

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And the Oscar for summing up a 996 goes to... Seriously you put that well

that akward story of a troubled M3 well I owned one and with all the options and with SMG, that is a fantastic car, there are no hard fixes, everything is available and also pretty easy to deal with, dunno what is with cooling system, most expensive part is the pump, which can be easily replaced. head gasket - can happen to any car, not common on the M3s if you are not dumb and drive the car while overheating (it has temp gauges you know, unlike lets say eeem e92 etc) the vanos is also doable, buy the beisan systems seal kit and that will set you back what - 40 bucks? and for a car fanatic (who mainly buy these) there is also no big deal to tackle this yourself. rod bearings - again maintanance matter of a wear item (often happens to 996es as well) so no reason to whine there suspension? - my country has worst roads in Europe and that car holds up great even considering that it has some age already, yes some pieces have to be replaced, but again no big deal, can happen to any car. brakes - ok porsche sets the benchmark herem but again they are maybe not the greatest but plenty. the diffs? never heard of problems with those, e39 M5 yes more often. subframe, yes that can happen but cannot as well, since it depends on how you drive and mostly whether the subframe bushes are not torn already (the excessive movement is the one to blame when subframe is torn off. (this btw happens also with 316 or 328i no matter what the power of the car, if the bushes are dead subfram will soon be torn, same story on e36 - maintanance matter, nothing else) as soon as I will recover from my 996 repairing adventures, I sure am going to grab another M3, the e46 is one of the best M cars out there great useability and plenty of performance.

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Yes and he'll pretty soon be saying "I've should've heeded good advice and stuck with Porsche".

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Well good luck to you cause you will need it. Just are there are experts on 996's there are also experts on E46 M3's. As for the subframe, well I'm really not sure that you are well informed on the issue. It has nothing to do with torn bushes. The bushes on mine were absolutely fine as are most on the forums and mine had several large hairline cracks. The vanos issues you clearly have mistaken with an M54 not the M3's S54. A seal kit does not fix the S54 isuues. Anyway, I couldn't care less really, mine is gone and I'm glad. The problems that occur are not befitting with a car of this calibre.

Not another IMS thread! I used to be paranoid like some of you. I bought a 99 Boxster with 49k miles and was scared into upgrading the IMS. Long story short I drove it and sold it at 110k. No issues. I just bought a used 2002 996 with 69k miles and it's a daily driver now at 80k miles with factory IMS. I'm not upgrading the IMS. If it hasn't blown up by now, I'll take my chances. Oh yeah , oil change is $65 for 8 changes with semi synthetics every 7k miles. You guys are stupidly paranoid about nothing. Life is too short to worry about a 911 engine exploding. Enjoy the damn car.

I agree 100%

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well I don't know what to say... either you picked up a very poorly serviced car or something BUT the vanos, if all is bad 1300usd and you get a completely new one, on the 996 there are 2 of the vario cam actuators/solenoids and they cost 1000usd - each. + a rather good bill in labour to replace. the subframe, as I said, yes that has been seen, but that is fixable and nothing major - remove the rear axle, weld in 4 strengthening plates and you are good to go. anyway M3 is a far more better car in many terms, it is not a sports car however, it is a sporty muscle car, if all these problems seem to be too big for a performance vehicle, that is weird, and to say the 996 is better, yup if the engine blows up due to IMS etc, then it is a financiall disaster compared to the M3 (considering a used unknown condition engine goes for 7-10k) and the ims hassle especiallly with facelift vehicles, where even LN products can fail all in all what I am trying to say is, that both of these are toys and toys break - if you play with them... if that is a problem a toyota corrola should be considered and no aspirin will ever be required.

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What's WRONG with this Picture? Lol!

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