Living with Bore Scoring - Tips and Tricks

For those of you living with bore scoring, how are you prolonging the life of the engine/coping? Obviously, the best/correct thing to do would be a full rebuild, but in the interim, whether a few months or years, what steps have you taken to live with the scared motor and/or address the common symptoms of bore scoring? Here is what I've gathered: 1. Have mild heart attack, then breath 2. Confirm it is in fact bore scoring (borescope) or decide to live under a rock (ignorance is bliss) 3. If yes, change oil often (it is still unclear which oil is best for this purpose; JR recommends Valvoline Premium Blue Engine Restore Diesel Oil 10w-30 but there are issues around price/accessability and lack of detail, how long to run, etc.) 4. Follow proper warm-up procedures - start car and idle 10-30 seconds and drive off slowly, keep revs under 3k until it reaches operating temp (200 degrees), and above 3k after 5. Keep a close eye on oil consumption and other factors such as engine noise and smoke Outstanding questions: 1. Can you still enjoy the car as it was meant to be enjoyed (spirited canyon drives/track days), or will that accelerate the M96/97s inevitable demise? 2. How long have you been running a scored motor? Have the symptoms gotten worse? 3. Any additives that actually help? The consensus view on this is fck no, but you never know...i'm looking for unicorn snake oil that will regenerate the cylinder wall linings if possible Other tips/tricks would be appreciated.

watch the FSI rennvision video series on bore scoring, it is discussed

bought a turbo lol

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watched the video multiple times. aside from running the valv blue oil, the answer was to get it rebuilt asap.

I barely drove it, and almost every time I did it was so I could listen to it again and try to figure it out. Fortunately I had nowhere to drive (short commute down the hall to work) so it wasn't too much of a sacrifice. Despite Jake's "if you must drive it, use this oil" guidance, I tried not to drive it at all. I hadn't had it very long when the noise started, and oil consumption wasn't too bad - but I sent oil to Blackstone and it came back "Dear Mark, we wish we had better news..." A trip to Hunter motorsports confirmed it - crystal clear Snap On images of three badly scored cylinders. It's at Alpine Autowerks in Calgary right now for a rebuild with Hartech cylinders. To be honest, if the noise wasn't so loud I may have driven it more - I mean sure, it's going to burn some oil and it's not going to be running as efficiently as it should, but if the particles are really small and the oil is changed frequently, is it really that bad...having looked at a lot of pictures of others during this process, I'm glad I didn't drive it much. Now the noise, thing - it confuses me. I watched all of Jakes bore scoring videos. I saw him wiggle the piston to demonstrate what makes the noise, and I we've probably all heard videos of it. When I listened with a standard stethoscope I couldn't locate it. It really sounded loudest on parts of the exhaust. then I got an electronic one. Wow (get one!) but it really isolated the noise to the exhaust or the front right (bank 2) of the engine. The thing with the noise is that you can almost count it. Then logically you think, "wait a minute, I can't count 700 in a minute" and something will remind you "no dummy, it's half that, it only happens on the power stroke, remember?". Right, you think to yourself, yeah that's sounds like a little more than 5 times a second, I guess that's it. After all the videos, posts, warnings, stories of misdiagnosis (I had that from someone who heard my video - "top end for sure, sounds like a lifter"), you give in and go "yep, that's what bore scoring sounds like" Here then is my question: Why does it sound the same if you have one badly scored cylinder, or three (like me)? If that noise is piston slap, why doesn't three sound like more? Jake has a video where he finds bore scoring in a car with no obvious symptoms. Is it possible that bore scoring is so prevalent that whenever we look we're likely to find it - and a sticky lifter was still responsible for the noise anyway? I guess the horror stories from people getting the lifters replaced then still hearing the noise would disprove that. Anyway, I'm looking forward to driving around with newer bigger better engine that doesn't embarrass me at stop lights ("Dude! You should shut that off!")

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When I listened with a standard stethoscope I couldn't locate it. It really sounded loudest on parts of the exhaust. then I got an electronic one. Wow (get one!) but it really isolated the noise to the exhaust or the front right (bank 2) of the engine. The thing with the noise is that you can almost count it. Then logically you think, "wait a minute, I can't count 700 in a minute" and something will remind you "no dummy, it's half that, it only happens on the power stroke, remember?". Right, you think to yourself, yeah that sounds like a little more than 5 times a second, I guess that's it. Thats exactly my issue, watched JR's diagnoses video 10 times, had the wife watch it (pc, headphones, phone, speakers), and we couldnt tell the difference between the bad cylinder and the good cylinder. tbh they all sounded bad except for 1 or 2 of them. same thing when using an analog steth on the car, couldn't isolate it. would you mind sharing your blackstone report? mine should be here any day now...

I lived with my ticking for about three years during which time the noise and oil consumption did get progressive worse. I was in total denial and knew what the condition was and that it wasn't lifters. Finally scoped it, found 5&6 were toast, parked it and went to FSI website to re-review the options. During the searching I ended up chatting with Jake. Called him and the rest is history. Best move of my vehicle owning life. When it sounds like this it is past time for corrective action... You Tube

Here's my report - and they were pretty sure about all the bits that shouldn't have been there. "MARK: We wish we had better news, but aluminum and silicon point to the likelihood of some piston scuffing going on. Aluminum is a piston metal, and the cylinders in the 3.6L H-6 are aluminum and silicon, so this much of each points to scuffing as the probable culprit. Iron comes from steel parts, and 56 ppm is enough to show some substantial wear there as well. We'd do a borescope at this point to check piston/cylinder health, and keep oil runs close to ~1,500 km for now, to help minimize wear. 3.6L H-6 averages are based on ~5,900 km of use. Check back." They even sent me a couple more containers for my next tests - but the next ones will be from the new engine.

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thank you for sharing. Wow those numbers jump out!

I drive mine the same. It's been ticking for 5K miles now. The car runs great. The ticking may be a little louder, but the only time I hear it when driving is when I'm against wall or sitting next to someone at a light. I change the oil the same. I'm still at the point where I'm not burning any oil. The car runs great. Earlier this summer I set up time with FSI. It will start it's new motor journey in March. Given where it's at for wear and performance, I'll keep driving it the same, fast.

I am interested in hearing how things went with Alpine. Can you tell us about that?

It's there now, Strath. I'm not going to provide updates, but I will share when I get it back. Things are so different for everyone right now, and I keep seeing the weather reports for Calgary and wondering how many people are getting to work.... Fortunately I've got no reason to drive so having the car out there isn't a big deal. I've encouraged Marc at Alpine to promote a little more to our region. There are certainly competent builders here in the GTA, but many of them are sending work down to the U.S. I have great respect for what Jake and FSI and LN are doing - but shipping and even worse, the exchange rates are killer, even for the shops up here. I really like the Hartech approach, but didn't want to ship the engine to the UK. With no provincial sales tax in AB, that saved the cost of shipping the whole car out there. (not both ways, but I was originally considering picking it up). That provides some savings on the re&re of the engine, and allows Alpine proper testing afterward - only one shop to warranty the whole job.

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That's definitely how I was looking at it at first - everything felt great too. But the ticking was LOUD, and mine's a cab so there was no escaping it. Now is a good time to have it out of commission, because we're not driving much and all PCA events here were pretty much cancelled.

If you understand the process the possible mitigation measures will be clear. A bit of silicon get scraped off the cylinder wall, and gets imbedded in the piston skirt. It's then carried up-and-down and scores the bore, then more bits scraped off etc. Mitigate with thicker oil perhaps 5w50, and increase distance piston to cylinder with lower temp thermostat. Can drive quite a few miles like that, and repair with expensive milling out of cylinders.

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please keep us posted on Alpine build.

I found out about my bore scoring during the PPI. I bought the car anyway - 37,000 miles in perfect condition 40th Anniversary 911. Had a great conversation with Jake and took the plunge. My 996 will head to Georgia in Feb/March for an FSI elective build. I don't drive it too much working from home, but I do take it out every weekend and drive the snot out of it. The plan was to put the "solution" in the car but with the scoring it wasn't eligible. Jake told me to drive it and make sure to run it for a good amount of time to get it nice and hot to burn up any fuel washed over the cylinders that makes it into the oil. I also put a can of SeaFoam in with each tank. I have zero symptoms and the car runs awesome. Scoring is minor but with no plans to ever sell this car I see no reason to wait to make it right. Cylinder 2, bottom Cylinder 3 Cylinder 4 Cylinder 5, bottom

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That's not real bad scoring, however, it won't get better so great choice. You will absolutely love the FSI reconstructed engine! Trust me...

It'll be interesting to see how Jake treats an X-51.

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I'm anxious for sure. It will be a stage 1 "plus", going with 4.0L displacement that I'm guessing will take advantage of the X51 heads. I'm sure once he gets going on my 911 I'll get more details of what that actually means.

My scoring was bad Progress continues. Pulling apart the engine, Marc discovered evidence there had been some significant failure in the past. There was evidence of the timing chain slapping around, and the oil pump housing was deeply scored around the tube the hex drive goes through. In fact, there was still a piece of debris that caused the gouge was still imbedded near the o-rings. it looked like someone had hammered it into place with a sledgehammer. The Hartech Nikisil cylinders have all been installed. The previous owner had the IMS bearing replaced because he couldn't confirm it had been done. He only put about 10,000 km on the car, with the new bearing and new clutch. We know now it's likely the bearing had been done before due to this other damage. Anyway, in removing THAT bearing, this damage to the IMS was discovered: That should be it for surprises!

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Do you have the car back yet?

I do have it back - I had forgotten I posted those pics since I swore I wasn't going to post a build thread. I know people expect that you should do all of the "while you're in there" stuff and I didn't want to go through all of the "suggestions". The IMS and oil pump were required, because of that damage. I think what was required was done and all new, and we did do some additional "while the engine is out" external stuff too, like AOS and oil cooler. Anyway, I was wondering whether I would really notice the small bump from 3.6 to 3.8L. My sons and I figured probably not, because I really didn't get to drive the car much before having this done, so I wouldn't really remember enough for a comparison. Let me say, it doesn't matter if I notice a difference, it's fantastic one way or the other. I haven't had much opportunity to drive it yet (haven't even hit 1000km for the oil change) but I love it all over again. I'll do an oil change in another 250km, and since I did an analysis while it was scored, I'll send one again with all of the update info. I'm really looking forward to getting some seat time - once we get out of lockdown again. Even with my employer as an essential service, I'm still working from home and only go in once or twice a month. I'm looking forward to some PCA events this year. Last time I went to any was in the 944.

Can't wait to see you out in it. Sounds like a good experience.

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Retired from Valvoline, just clarifying if you are at this point yes run Valvoline Premium Blue 15w40, not 10w30 is not viscous enough. Anyway Here in Texas you can buy it at Advance Auto Parts , also Autozone.

Sigh�I think I�m in this boat�car runs perfectly and strong but my aluminum count is about 3x normal, silicon is just a tiny bit high. I�m sure it�s bore score but since I can�t �fix� without a rebuild I�m going to drive it in ignorant bliss�but I am switching to Driven DT40 next week from Mobil 1.

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look at your oil analysis trending numbers. Also silicon comes from dirt and silica is abrasive as hell replace your air filter. Sample again at next oil change.

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I assume you mean the engine air filter...I can certainly do that, I just replaced it last October and it was in storage under cover from late November to early March...

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Smoke your engine for vacuum leaks. Dirt can enter the engine via those means as well. Once you know that the engine is sealed up, then you can see how your UOA trends are affected or determine that the silicon debris is from the cylinders and not from outside the engine.

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Hi there, I'm trying to figure out my options for my 996's lower end problems. Sounds like piston slap/clatter and it definitely sounds like it's coming from the lower end. I'm wondering how your experience back in 2021 has turned out. I love the idea of living with the bore score and treating with Seafoam all the time. Has that continued to work well for you or have you gone ahead with a rebuild? (I wasn't quite sure what you meant by the sentence that your care wasn't eligible for the "solution".) Any insight would be appreciated! Dave

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Identifying the Porsche cylinder bore scoring problem is the first step. From your description, it certainly sounds like you have cylinder bore scoring. The cheapest thing you can do is have your used oil tested for increased aluminum, iron, and silicon levels. Bore scoping from the sump will catch early signs of bore scoping where you don't catch it through the spark plug unless it's pretty far along. The steps that can to be taken to prevent cylinder bore scoring would be the same you should follow to extend the life of an engine with scored bores. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do to reverse or stop scoring once it has started, but you can indeed slow it down if you take the steps we've outlined.

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Maybe this has already been discussed. Feel free to direct me to those threads. What is it that Valvoline premium blue can do that is beneficial in preventing progression? And, as a follow-up question, what are the disadvantages of premium blue? Maybe as my engine gets to higher mileage it would make sense to run it assuming that there is at least some degree of scoring developing.

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A diesel oil isn't going to help with bore scoring. If you have high oil consumption already, the soot loading capacity of a diesel oil might help address the negative effects of soot in the oil caused by the consumption, but outside of this, it's not going to provide protection from developing bore scoring or extend the life of an engine that already has bore scoring. Diesel oils historically don't use moly and moly is what is needed to help protect the cylinder bores as ZDDP cannot bind to the aluminum bores, where moly can (and does).

Interesting since dt40 lists zddp as an attribute, apparently not useful if moly is the real issue. As long as I'm thinking, I have a spin on adapter and usually use NAPA gold 1042 filter but apparently the 1258 works and is larger. Is there any realistic reason to go that route?

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All oils will have ZDDP. It's a must. However, ZDDP only works with and binds to ferrous surfaces. DT40 has more than what an A40 oil has.

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Great. Glad to hear it's useful for the other moving parts in a motor. I've always looked for ZDDP for my air cooled engines also. Getting ready to do another oil change. As I mentioned I do have the LN spin on adapter. Not that it is a big deal but what is your position on the Napa Gold 1042 versus 1258? Good, bad, neither?

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From a micron and flow rating, they are identical. The 1258's filter gasket should fit the spin on filter adapter even though the filter is a larger diameter. The approx. 1" longer length works well when paired with a 2 qt deep sump as the bottom of the filter and sump end up about the same, especially with the sump guard if you are concerned about ground clearance. 1042 1258

Good on ya. Thanks.

C didy, I moved to the 1258 this spring. It fits fine, but at the last oil change, the gasket stayed attached to the spin-on adaptor. That never happened with the 1042. I've got one of each here on the bench and sure enough, the gasket on the 1258 is easy to pull away from the can by hand, but not so with the 1042. The 1042 actually has a crimp against the gasket to hold it in place, the 1258 is just a press fit gasket. I like the 1258 for its nearly double the surface area so I get a tiny fraction more "oil cooling" capacity.