First time Pcar guy. Apologies in advance

Hello. I've been reading this forum a ton....it is pretty awesome. I'm old and love forums over FB for car stuff. I accidentally a 911. Long story short, a local person I know had an IMS failure on a 60Kmile 2002 Carrera 4 Manual trans convertible. They wanted it gone, dealer was trying to screw them over. Now I have a Porsche. I've never been a Pcar guy, but love this era of car. I have a 2001 M5, and a couple other things that fit along nicely with this. First convertible too, so sort of excited about that. Anyway, I have read and re-read all there is to do with the IMS failure. Ordered a borescope to see what the damage actually is, but fully understand that the engine may be a loss. What are my options here? -IF engine is 'OK' (doubtful but....theoretically possible) upgrade IMS - Pretty sure I can leave the engine in the car for this, right? -buy used engine, update to new style IMS, unless engine has been updated -Send engine out for rebuild -swap.....LS3?? Any input on those options? Options I'm missing? The LS swap is interesting, and it seems that most of the issues have been flushed out. But still a big undertaking. What are other things that should be done 'while I'm in there' I am always very interested in upgrading/replacing things that are made much easier when I have half the car apart. What are some good modifications? I LOVE the aftermarket. I'm all for clutch/power/brake/etc upgrades. Stock cars are boring, just because haha. Any links to reputable companies that sell neat bits? What are the headlight options for this car? I don't hate the 996 headlights but....well, the 997 is much cooler, haha. Any other neat body or interior upgrades? I'm sure I will have more questions. When I have the car in hand I will post some pics. Thank you in advance!!

LS3… I’m biased. More seriously, what’s your budget ?

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Budget can be flexible. I didn't buy this car to flip or 'make money' on, but I also know it is an AWD vert, so not the performance choice of most (I'm a coupe guy generally). Also...have 2.5 very large projects I'm trying to finish as well. So, I'm open to seeing what the budget would need to be for some of these options. It looks like if I ned to go the full new 3.6+IMS I'd be in the $10-$12K range, right?

A correctly built 3.6 is $20-25k. Its a blank slate, i went with a gt3 swap, there r 2.4l honda and audi swaps too. All have there plus and minuses.

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What defines correctly built? more than just an IMS fix?

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If the IMS went, it would have sent metal thru the engine, necessitating a complete teardown. Depending on the damage - depends on what has to be addressed. You may find typical M96 bore scoring (not related to IMS) that needs to be addressed. Depending on mileage - your cylinders may be very out of round - which if so - is the same repair as bore scoring. It quickly becomes a $20-25K build. -Tom

I would spend the time/money to have the engine investigated to see what the current status is, which could mean tearing the engine down. Simple fix, no damage, limited scoring, $5-$8k max, you�re back in business. If the engine needs more work, it likely makes sense to do a comprehensive rebuild, approx $20-$25k by the time you address all the improvements (IMSSolution, UAOS, water pump, head work, new clutch, etc.). And if you are going to drop $25k, you might just as well get a quote for an LS for maybe 25% more (for 50% more power). Regardless of which direction you go, if you plan to track the car, solve the oil starvation issue with the right oil pan setup.

When you say "dealer was trying to screw them over" what does that mean? What dealer would buy a 911 with known IMS failure? They'd never be able to sell it and wouldn't spend the time parting it out. I hope you didn't pay more than the dealer was offering and you got it for free. But 'dealer trying to screw them over' sounds like you did the local person a favor, so I'm just not clear... And I assume you know what you're getting into. You can buy a pretty nice 996 cab for 20-25k with an engine that'll last forever if taken care of.

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Wow... who knew LS swap'd 996 Cabs were going for so cheap.

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I measured a 60kmile 3.6 engine bore last summer. Bores looked perfect, no scores at all, but they measured less than .001" from what Charles says .(0035") is max out of round cylinder taper. In most other make engines it would already have been way past max out of round of .002"max. The pistons coating was almost worn off the pistons. So the only way to reassemble this engine was to use new very expensive oem Porsche pistons with their special iron clad ferrous type coating that plays nice with the loco-sil cyl walls. So, do you rebuild an engine with cyls that are almost out of spec, spending 10's of thousands of dollars for an engine that probably won't last another 10-20,000 miles before being out of specs..? The experts say this needed piston coating is no longer readily available on the market because of environmental concerns,? any other coating or non coated pistons will very rapidly wear the silicone impregnated cyl wall to heavy bore score. So to do an engine correctly' can't reuse the oem cyl bores. These 3 & 5 chain engines are not dingleberry honed/deglazed and new piston friendly at all. Out of the hundreds of different engines I've built, these are the worst blocks I've ever seen. This was a bad period of Porsche history that the bean counters made mechanical decisions to help Porsche out of a financial hole.The convoluted chain set up tries to accommodate the cost savings from 1 head casting for both banks. The blocks are made out of a defective material/structure that all the 996 experts say will not get too 100k miles without being out of spec. And this makes them not rebuildable blocks. To recondition these blocks its a great expense to sleeve and all that goes with that. $7000+ when all is said and done. Then you get to buy $$$$ of specialized diabolical engine assembly tools that only work for a 996 engine. Now add in head work, over sized gaskets, bearings, pumps, chains, fasteners, vario cam stuff, cams, tensioners, pads, diabolical tools, etc. If you go to LN site, our forum sponsor and probably THE 996 engine experts, you'll see a almost $30,000 price tag when all is said and done, for a quality rebuilt engine with maybe a 10%(+or-) increase in power. And this is only if you have a more or less perfect core to send them. If 1/2 of the cranks LN sees are cracked like some say, add in another $4-6k if yours is cracked/damaged. It goes on and on. No one can deny these are very very expensive engines with a poor durability record at the least. Some have spent over 40k on engines, some 70k... If you get all the correct machine work done, Buy all the needed parts, and do the assembly yourself, and you have a more or less perfect block/crank/heads/cams/lifter tray/lifters/etc, to start with,, and you've already replaced all the ancillary parts in recent maintenance,, like fuel injectors, IMSB, WP, UAOS, sump systems, coils, hoses, chains, pads, actuators, tensors, etc, and you can borrow or rent the diabolical tools needed, then maybe 20k is doable,,, maybe... Its good you're open to engine swaps as thats the way to go if you're not a Porsche purist, and even if you are its still the way to go imo. check out the Audi 2.7 single turbo swap that gets you 450+ easily tunable for more, wheel HP. In a much more reliable engine than the 3 or 5 chain oem. Bone yard Audi 2.7 go for $750 -2000 for a decent used engine. Audi swaps use the same ecu more or less and are fully integrated to the 996 dash and engine controls as they are already in our tutonic vag family... Be nice to dump all those chains and all that go with them, for an easily maintained timing belt and durable easily rebuild-able iron block... All while dropping at least 50 lbs and moving the CG 4-6" forward to a more neutral chassis... the some say problematic dual turbo setup thats stock on the audi, is gone on the swap. Replaced by a single large turbo. Oh ya, if you're going to track the car, iirr as of this time, no real 100% solution to M96emgine oil starvation has been found,, yet. But some very good minds are still working on it... Many hard charging winning track guys have gone thru many many 996 engine oiling failures... So, now knowing this, hope you haven't bit of more than you can chew....? JMO

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You knew what I meant.

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Ditto amigo

Wow! Awesome and appreciated responses. You guys are awesome seriously. Great and needed info. On my phone, so I'll give respinses without quoting, apologies. -thank you for all the explanations of the reasons for why this engine is so expensive to rebuild properly. I guess I was thinking a rebuild wouldn't cost much more than just buying a junkyard 3.6 and fixing the IMS. Why do used unmolested engines go for so much if they are basically junk? -I'm definitely not a porsche purist, so the swaps intrigue me a lot. The single turbo audi sounds neat. Sounds less expensove than an LS and maybe easier? -as for the dealer comment. When the car 'made a noise' they took it to the dealer. They poked around a few mins and said $15k plus labor. No ex0lanation and hinted strongly that they would rather not touch the car. so, after a bunch of research, they determined it would be much more expensive to fix since they can't do anything themselves. I got the car for cheap, but neither i nor them feel we got ripped off. -not to the point of feeling I got ripped off. Sounds like this will be a gun project. -while I'm not capable of rebuilding engines, the rest of it is within my skillset. done some pretty insensive projects in the past and have a few ongoing. Again, thanks!!!

I’m also intrigued by LS swaps, any many have been done and lots of parts are available. One thing not many people talk about or consider when looking at cost is the transmission/ final drive gear ratios. Given the great low end torque and less max rpm of the LS, to have a truly good street driver, at a minimum a change in final drive ratio needs to be done. There are companies that can do this for a price, but should be included in your price estimate.

LS can easily have same, or higher RPM limit than M96, the stock LS3 rev limit is 6600. I don’t understand your concern, can you present the scenario you’re saying you would want a final drive change. The LS makes more torque at every RPM than an M96 - meaning you have much more flexibility with what gear you choose for a given situation.

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I�d rather want to get the LS to over 7k if possible. Changing gear ratios would just add cost.

I never checked... Anybody know if the trans in the M96 powered 996 the same as the 996 turbo, 996 GT2 and 996 GT3, or is it different?

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No, G96 Vs. G50 for Mez powered cars.

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that�s certainly possible but also adds cost. The typical ls3 out of a G8 has a redline of about 6200rpm. With stock gearing 80 mph calculates out to about 3500 rpm in 5th gear. For a comfortable loose level in a freeway cruiser, 2500 is typically where LS engines run. I don�t think you can get there with any FD available. Plus, with the stock 3.44 FD 1st gear is so short that the LS runs up almost annoyingly quickly, so 1st gear becomes practically useless. As a zero cost option, most will just start in 2nd and go to 6th on the freeway. A 3.4 FD helps but doesn�t quite do it, IMO. All this is my opinion for a street car, a track car is another can of worms.

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I really don't get what your point is, the engine has no bearing on gearing - you'll be in the same RPM regardless of the engine. The benefit of an LS is no matter what RPM you're at - it has lots more available power. Your complaint in 1st is the same for both engines with the exception of the LS making a lot more power getting to the end of the gear faster...Sounds like a good problem to have in comparison to the slow M96. And from my experience, 465WHP does not make for a useless 1st gear, at least not prohibitively more useless than with the stock engine. And as I said above - stock rev limit is 6600 RPM for an LS3... What am I missing here ? 3K RPM 76MPH cruise....

So.....unless my 3.6 isn't bad, it really seems like a swap is the answer. 2.7T or an LS3 are the 2 front runners and both have pros and cons. I will need to do side by side comparisons between cost and swap effort, including integration. The 2.7 is really looking superior when it comes to ease and integration. What sort of facelift options does this car have. Here is a pic of the beast right now, hopefully going to get it and the factory hardtop tomorrow.

Don�t get me wrong, I�m a fan of these conversions. I�m just saying there some negative aspects related to gearing you may want to consider. I haven�t done a swap myself so I can�t give first-hand experience, but are a couple of comments from guys who�ve actually done it. (From one of the LS forums)

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I find the same problem with the 996 Turbo, it goes through 1st gear so fast that the gap from 1st to 2nd feels/is enormous comparatively...and the 2nd to 3rd is only slightly better.... And is why I actually prefer the Tip on the 996 Turbo, or the Holy Grail PDK on the newer high power/torque cars ..The loss of acceleration/time from the "gear shift" becomes increasingly annoying the faster the cars is..

1st, 2nd, 3rd at about 70% throttle... It is good, really good. Instagram

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I see your point. I had a big V8 and it would spin at 3500RPM on the highway. That�s fine for a smaller engine, but it�s a little annoying for a huge engine like an LS. It�s loud and it burns a lot of fuel, and probably reduces engine life expectancy by 1% 😂. However, I doubt changing the gear ratios would do much for the 0-60 time because you have to shift either way. However, 0-100 would probably need a shift into 4th with the LS compared to the old 3.4. Either way, the LS is faster, hands down.

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That's why I had the 997 GT2 RS 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gearsets fitted to the G50 in my black 6TT (at great expense). Gear ratios are nearly perfect now. The side effect of having more torque capacity in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is nice, too.

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That's awesome !! I know what Porsche gear sets cost. Very few would even know that the different gear sets were available, even fewer would spend the $$$$ Funny thing about horsepower is that you can get used to it very quickly, and I mean VERY quickly , and then you left with everything else, hence why all the other little things become important as in satisfying or annoying.. My daily driver to work and back for 12 years in the 70's 80's had Supercar Power ie. 5.8 lbs/hp or 0.171 hp/lbs that still is not even achieved by cars under $100k today, and I was a "hired gun" driver for Drag Cars that had up to near 1000hp NA back in the day...Increases in horsepower could be felt at first, but you would soon get used to it and then can could feel everything else going on in the car...The "everything else" is just as important as the power if not more important sometimes than just the power. If you can never get used to the power, then you can never feel what else is going on with the car...

This gear ratio thing sure does help the 2.7T option. the LS is just so damned cool though.

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There, fixed it for you...An Offenhauser would be cool, they sold 100 million LS's ( that's right, 100 Million !! ) and still went bankrupt, and had to be taxpayer funded...I guess they should have charged more for them originally so we would not have had to pay for them later..

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Agreed, they do seem to be cheap, but buying all the various kits and pieces to make them fit makes them not huge savings over the 2.7T......

Just another ******* with an opinion here. In the last year of learning and following RL if I end up with a blown engine I'm down to 2 options. 1. Rebuild the current 3.6 up to 3.8 with Nickies. I'd buy the M9X DVD and send the case off to LN along the heads to Len Hoffman, assemble myself at home in the shop. I love the flat 6 sound and keeping the original intended motor, no real logical reason beyond that. I also love the idea and challenge of learning something new, hence the assemble myself. 2. LS swap using CPE components. Tyler Chavis at CPE seems to have a great suite of products at this point to make this swap as painless as possible. He's still a small shop and sometimes the wiring harness lead times look to be slow, but that is based on merely observing and not as a paying customer. He seems to be super supportive of anyone attempting this swap whether they are a customer or not. Both of these if done correctly look to be in the $20k to $30k range at a minimum just in parts and services alone. I haven't seen a ton of support for the 2.7 swaps, but it could be me just turning a blind eye to them and not as common as a LS swap. Look forward to see which route you go with!

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Speaking from experience - Tyler went out of his way to help me on my swap, and he totally did not need to. He is also the only guy working to push the wiring side to a P&P solution and seems to have done a very good job of getting there. His harnesses are built by Wiring Specialties and yeah - their lead times can be a bit brutal but you are getting a top notch harness with Tyler's engineering behind it. Bottom line - you could do a lot worse than working with him on your swap. I have a feeling that any performance oriented 996 owner who gets an opportunity to actually ride in an LS3 powered car would pretty much instantly be converted.

Got it home. Sadly the front fascia has damage under the plate mount. Have to decide what to do with that.

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I also needed a 5th gear set because of wear. Each gear set was about $1700.... the gearbox is a serious weak point of the 996 Mezger powered cars. Horsepower does become ho-hum with time, my Cayenne has 550HP (4.5 liters with 16 pounds of boost!) and it seems ordinary now. I seem to do a lot of yelling at other drivers who are accelerating "slowly".