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YOUR RESEARCHLNE Nickies 3.4 to 3.6 or 3.8 Questions
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Suggestion
I didn�t gather specifics about which cams duration and lifts they would recommend but that�s going to depend on what the purpose of the car is going to be.
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Suggestion
If I remember correctly, if you change a 3.4 to a 3.8 by using the 101mm pistons you should also upgrade to the forged rods too.
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4.0 was a consideration, but more than one reliable source told me that the factory ECU can adapt to about a 10% displacement change without needed a remap.
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Suggestion
At least with a 2000 or 2001 should you run into ARF issues, you could find a tuner.
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Suggestion
Is everyone running stock cams with the displacement bump?
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I didn�t gather specifics about which cams duration and lifts they would recommend but that�s going to depend on what the purpose of the car is going to be.
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Suggestion
4.0 was a consideration, but more than one reliable source told me that the factory ECU can adapt to about a 10% displacement change without needed a remap.
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Suggestion
The combination goes right down to camshaft timing, and stock timing that is set with jigs and etc from the factory is only adequate for "stockish" engines.
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Suggestion
Perhaps some of the stock cams, etc, are not going to be timed ideally for the job of achieving maximum output, even if it is possible to use the stock components to complete the job.
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I called and emailed LNE asking the following question but didn't get a satisfactory answer (The person on the phone had no information other than prices, and the email response was a copy/paste of info on their website), so ill ask the community for their opinion.
I'm getting into the rebuild of my 1999 C4 with 150k miles on it (IMS paddle wearing out so a full rebuild is in order). LNE offers three options for resleeving the block, stick with the 3.4 or increase the bore to 3.6 or 3.8 liter displacement. The prices for all of the options are basically the same, so what are the advantages and disadvantages to each option? I wasn't planning on hot rodding the engine for this rebuild, I'm just looking for a reliable engine that'll last me for at least another 150k miles, but if the cost for upping the displacement is basically the same then why not?
another option is by a short block from Porsche, if all you are looking for is reliable and another 150k.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...tallation.html
When I rebuilt my 3.6, I went 3.8.
4.0 was a consideration, but more than one reliable source told me that the factory ECU can adapt to about a 10% displacement change without needed a remap. 4.0 was pushing my luck, I felt, so I opted 3.8 to get a little more pull but to still be in the range.
I'm happy with the result.
What I was told during my engine rebuilding class (Knowledge Gruppe,) about the 3.6 M96 engine to a 3.8 is that the cams and everything in their stock form work very nicely, but with the 4.0 there are some adjustments should be made to achieve the
ideal
output from the engine and this is not something you will achieve "out of the box" with the components from a 3.6. It was explained to me that with the 3.8 you get the "out of the box" performance with the 3.6 components.
I have personally done a 3.4 to 3.6, as my home garage project after my class, and that was because some of the components had already been purchased for me by the PO of my project car who had bailed on his own "project" of a car. I would love to have it confirmed by a pro, however, that a similar scenario with the 3.4 would occur moving to 3.8 as a 3.6 would moving to 4.0. Perhaps some of the stock cams, etc, are not going to be timed ideally for the job of achieving maximum output, even if it is possible to use the stock components to complete the job.
I'm wondering if the DME in the 99 could handle even a bump to 3.6.
A 2000 or 2001 probably wouldn't have any problem, but the 1999 DME might have problems, and finding someone to tune it might be troublesome.
At least with a 2000 or 2001 should you run into ARF issues, you could find a tuner.
DME on a '99 3.4L has no issues with a bump to 3.8L. OP has a C4, so with the e-gas, it will have a wider range of options (bigger throttle body, software optimization tunes) than the C2 with the cable throttle.
The PO of my 3/98 had the engine rebuilt to a 3.6 with LN Nickies after suffering from D chunking. I have all of the documentation and there is nothing that suggests any ECU tuning and the car runs and drives great. No issues what so ever.
Edit: My car is a cable-throttle C2
VERY Interesting
This all makes sense now. A friend has a 99 C2 which received a later 3.6 engine. Bolted it in, reused the cable throttle, just plugged it in and everything just worked.
I've always wondered how that could be and now it makes sense. If I recall Jake doesn't tune the ECU on this less extreme builds.
I am in the process of building a 3.8 Stage II for my 99 C4 ......... small world 😁. Talking with Jake and Jud at FSI we decided to go the 3.8 for a variety of reasons . The most important to me is they have built so many 3.8's and it is a rock solid build . Reliability and great performance that is hard to beat .
I am also going with big valve heads with custom port work via Len Hoffman . I am not trying to build a race car , just solid street performance . I hope to have the engine built in June but my pacing item is the billet rods . Good luck to the OP regardless of what direction you go .
Make the decision based on what you can afford for head work. Bigger isn't better unless the entire engine combination, and subsystems are coefficiently altered.
Its all in the combination, displacement doesn't make the power. The combination is what separates these efforts, and the combination is what takes years to perfect. The combination goes right down to camshaft timing, and stock timing that is set with jigs and etc from the factory is only adequate for "stockish" engines.
Any time I add bore, I add port work. Finding the balance is what's tough.
I cover this in my M9X Performance Classes, to the letter.
I have a 1999 and had L&N bore and nickel me to 3.6 and I'm a passionate, but daily driver. LOVE how it all runs and nor regrets and that was 40K miles ago! Otto's European in Venice, Ca did the final and updated parts to 04. Love the results.
"My" engine guy reconstructed mine from a 3.6 to a 3.8. When he turned it over to me he said, in essence, "Go drive it..."
It doesn't matter to me how he did it because it turned out so well. I have never been more happy with an engine/car.
If anyone is interested I have a set of 3.6 JE pistons with stock rods w/apr hardware for $1000. I’m rebuild from a 3.4 to 3.6 to now a 3.8. Therefore I don’t need these piston and rods.
Tex I have confirmed with 9xx, vision, joe Anselmo and the guys out of Florida that in a cable throttle car the Dme can handle this well. What everyone said was to get the most is that the intake and exhaust have to be modified. A 3.8 that�s a different animal, also try to find someone that can tune it it�s a nightmare.
you would be surprised by what a APR tune does. I really let it rip yesterday and the car is completely different more torque down below. This is the third APR tune I have had installed, love all of them. First two were VWS. Anyway I finish paying $625 for it.
Thoughts? Cracked wall led to boring to 3.6 LN Nickies, other updates to 04, factory cams, tried to stay conservative, 99 cable throttle. Fister exhaust. Looking into at a tune maybe like a GIAC.
I am electively building a cable throttle 3.4 to the 3.8, a few of my descisions are the LN deluxe kit, as it contains the "hard parts" for supporting a bigger engine change. Carillo rods etc. The Nickies are chosen as a reliability measure, the car is fast enough for me as a 3.4, (the car is immaculate and a tribute to previous owners in Vesuvio/black interior) but more torque from displacement appeals. The consistent message after a significant change to the engine is the tune, where knowing ithe engine is not done until air fuel ratios are retuned - here the limits may come from the old technology cable throttle ECU. If I can't be certain about AFRs and have the car propely tuned, I will go aftermarket ECU. On My other modified cars tuning was not just dyno, but being driven in real time with a lap top connected. While costly the drivability gains of correct tuning also make for a sweet happy engine to enjoy.
I went with apr on the 3.4. Total cost was $625. Extremely happy with the results. I had two previous vws tuned by them, good gains and cost effective.
I haven�t dynoed my car but previously I was hitting 4.9 to Sixty, with almost 100k miles on the engine with all the mods I am at 4.6, that�s almost as quick as a stock 997 carera S.
Acceleration times tell us about the "top end of the curve" success of the tune. How are other aspects of this tune? Idle, low end part throttle response, grid lock traffic behaviour? Low speed behaviour such as reverse parking? How is the mid range response in overtaking a slow lane blocker?
Had Hoffman do oversized intake valves and and his Stage 1 porting on my 3.4 to 3.8 build. I think his exact words regarding the oversized valves on a 3.8 were "cheapest power you can add to that engine".
Len Hoffman is doing my heads . Doing big valves with what he calls Stage 1 porting . He knows his stuff , I would describe him as a subject matter expert . He doesn't come cheap ( rightfully so ) and his wait list is fairly long .
I felt like a lost a bit of low end torque when I went with the catless x pipes, now a different monster above 4,000 rpms. The low end torque is back now and then some with the tune. In my opinion more down low, it�s hard stating it but I�m willing to bet if you measure from baseline, more hp and torque down low gains that at the top end. Which is what fvd was telling me about their tune.
Good info!
Very interesting. Noted.
You want the best, there is usually a cost associated with it. Just out of curiosity
how "not cheap"
are we talkin?
Awesome info. Thanks guys!
I received a discount ............ think of a friends and family discount so I am not willing to provide the price . Plus I had a spare set of heads that he evaluated and took in as credit .
I was out the door for under $3k including round trip shipping and insurance, but that was December 2019. Think there have been recent posts on here quoting significantly higher prices.
Hoffman has two price list. He sent them to me and I posted them here maybe January or February. Anyway here is ball park. 1. Head work including his stage one porting which he says is good for 3-4 percent improvement in the flow bench. Between $2-2.3k. If you are going big valves with the stage One work which he stated improves flow 14 percent on the bench, you are over $4k, with all the other little thing could easily be a $5k job. I spoken to a few shops that build engines, prep race cars and most say if you go big valves you should definitely go with different cams. This is all on his 3.4 price sheet. I didn�t gather specifics about which cams duration and lifts they would recommend but that�s going to depend on what the purpose of the car is going to be. I
think I saw some shrick cams for maybe $2500. In my whenever build I�m going je pistons and I�m going to stay at 3.6, I would be paying the extra for the stage one porting but I�m not going big valve.
Just finished my 2001 3.4 rebuild to a 3.8 from L&N. It turned out great!!! Go to 3.8 and do not look back. Followed Jake Rabey directions after attending his class and it was much easier than i thought.
Biggest issue was getting parts timely.
Can't believe the torque increase with the displacement bump. You will love it. took me about 60 days to complete. You have to go to L&N tech site to get good answers to your detail questions. They know what they are doing but you have to get the right person. Good luck!!
On Facebook "The Porsche Engine gurus" an Australian Ross Head has home built an LN3.8 Nickie build. He was kind enough to inform me he is doing well on reconditioned stock heads and untouched engine management. LN have completed my 3.8 Nickies, I'm waiting on the deluxe rebuild kit. Even though mine is a torque focused build it will see dyno time, what can be done with cable throttle ECU, or if I have to go further. After a displacement increase a better flowing exhaust is on the list as well.
