tracking the 996 for the first time... with cup tires?

Hi folks, I'll track the 996 C4S for the first time next week. Engine full stock, D2 sport suspension, car has 90K and is healthy. I drive it daily on stock wheels with Michelin PS2 N3 tires but I also have a set of cup wheels (ATS centerlock) with Michelin Cup tires that I'm thinking of using. But is it wise? I know the engine doesn't use the dry sump case we're used to, so could lateral acceleration cause lubrication issues?? How about the brakes? Thoughts? Experience? Thanks!

Have you tracked any car before? What's your experience level?

As stated, it all depends on your experience. If you are new, you will placed in the beginner class and will most likely not be permitted to drive without an instructor for safety reasons. Cup's are amazing, but they also encourage you to drive 9/10's which beginner's are not ready for. Your instructor will have you focus primarily on track safety first. This includes spotting and identifying flag types and proper overtaking procedures. I'd say stick with the stock's for now. They are more than adequate. I honestly don't know anyone who didn't become addicted to track events after trying them once, so the cups will eventually be given a shot. As for the brakes, I'm sure they will have you go though a mandatory inspection which includes brake checks. You don't have worry about upgrading the components until you have a few events under your belt.

I've read of issues with the oiling system (starvation) in long high-g turns with the stock sump system. The risk of this will be exacerbated with super-sticky Cup tires. You will need to assess the risk based on the track at which you're planning to run how big of a risk this might be, and decide if you're willing to take that risk. There are upgrades that can be done, ranging from installing the X51 baffle system and/or a deep-sump kit all the way to installing a dry sump system--again, you'll need to decide what you're willing to spend and risk. Personally, I'd just keep the PS2s on the car and focus on learning how your C4S behaves on the track, and on improving your driving skills behind the wheel of that car. Side benefit--the car feel you learn on the track will be transferable to the road with the PS2s, but won't with the Cup tires. As for brakes -- the stock ones will be fine but make sure you've changed your brake fluid recently, say within the last 6 months. My local PCA chapter requires this for their DE weekends. Brake fluid absorbs moisture over time and older/"wet" brake fluid boils at lower temps due to that moisture uptake. Having fresh brake fluid in the system will delay the onset of the fluid boiling which will bring your session to an abrupt end (rapidly lose braking performance). Whichever way you go, have fun and stay safe. P.S. Nice collection of current and former cars!

Not knowing what your level of experience is and if you come back and say "I drive flat out", I would say this a bad idea that will only get worse.

Thanks for the wise answers I have few track hours including races and a bunch of DE. I have raced all kinds of cars on dirt, rallye and endurance from Lada to GT2. I have tracked with non competition tires only once (my bimmer) and realized that a street car is a completely different story compared to a race or track dedicated car. My worry is mostly the stress that the cup tires will make on the car (including suspension and mostly engine). That said it's been years that I haven't tracked (10 years since last race then 7 years of nothing and just a DE with the bimmer 3 years ago) and maybe I should take the car as it is and see how it goes. Also I don't feel good with driving the car with center locks on the road - in case of accident or anything some guy could go after me for liability. So one point against the cup wheels. I have flushed brakes, change oil, filters, spark plugs and belts and inspected suspension this week. The track is Laguna Seca, so fast track. I'll change the suspension setup to get it more aggressive, will lower the car by 1 cm rear and 1.5cm front and will share feedback with you

One of the best lessons I learned from my dad (and Nike ): "Just do it" and go from there Miles

ITROCMAN didn't quite the issue with CL's for street use and liability.."some guy could come after me..." what does that mean?

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Where do you live where that's something to worry about!? Seems like a waste of money to me to be running slicks at a DE... assuming you're doing a DE and not a race. Though I have yet to see a C4S at a PCA or POC race...

- I believe center locks are not DOT approved. Couldn't that be source of troubles in case of incident? I'm from Europe where people don't sue others much and have seen a different mindset here so I'm a bit paranoid! - This is not a race and not a PCA event. A corporate event I'm invited to - wanted to get the opportunity to go back on track. I know the C4S is not a race car but that's what I have now I have a set of cup wheels that have been sleeping in the garage for a year. Thought of using them for the DE.. would be waste but fun! They're going to dry out after few years if I don't use them anyway. There is no race group for this DE. Point and pass is the highest group which I registered for. Anyway, because of possible engine starvation and the stress on the chassis I'll stick with the PS2 as stated before. Thanks!

Slap the cups on and go, I would rather gets some use out of them instead of letting them rot...Laguna is an easy track anyway.

Porsche would not put 1000,'s of CL's on cars if they weren't DOT approved

I thought the old center locks were not DOT and Porsche made the new larger hype ones to offer daily racers the ability to change their flat tire in a snap and be legal.

If I had enough room I'd take the bits and wheels and mount them if I feel frustrated on track with the street tires. Maybe I'll find a friend to accompany me and load a pair in his car or truck

My .02. This is your first time in a P-car at a track. Even though you have 4wd, (better traction bit a weight penalty unless the conditions suck). I would strongly suggest that still stay with your street tires. NO way would I recommend you use the cup tires...may look cool, but you are probably not ready to drive at the level required to properly handle them. Your PS2's will be fine, they will sing as you push them and that is a good thing as it will help you learn 911 handling dynamics, and they are unique. I would play it safe rather than sorry. Also, I suspect that with the PS2's (and since you are new, don't know the track and your speed) you will not pull enough g's to induce oil starvation. Go out there, play it safe, have fun and yo will be back for plenty more.......regardless of what you decide, have fun!

Thanks but please read previous posts Not MY first time - first time with a street 996- and the car is RWD. I found a way to take the extra set of wheels to the track and will see how it goes there. I have 50+ hours of racing so I know where the cup tires take me. thanks for the words of wisdom though!

Irocman: In your first post, you stated C4s, which is normally 4wd. And thi sis your first time with a 996 at track...your racing career did not include a 996, If I read your post correctly, although I get it, seat time is seat time.......so, I wish you good luck, all the way around.

Thanks man I'll try to setup an onboard video to share it with you guys.

If you wind up liking the C4S on track, PCA-GGR will be holding a DE/Time Trials weekend Sept. 6-7 at Thunderhill. Several of us track C4S's and some are pretty damn fast. I say ignore the AWD haters and get that thing on track as much as you can. FWIW, I would start w/ street tires too -- a good baseline that (presumably) your current suspension setup will like.

Hi folks, Some feedback as promised Well, the 996 didn't track because of a failing CV joint due to a puncture that let the grease away. I was very upset I wouldn't make it but fortunately a friend let me borrow his 2010 M3 and I had a blast. Can't wait to see what the C4S can do at laguna. What lap times do you typically get there? I made 1'48 with the M3. IT has more power but is much heavier than the 996...

That's a good friend who lets you drive their newish car in track!

Yes, that's definitely what I thought and told him! He knows my background though, only 1 accident the first year I raced back in 1996 then 5 championships with no issue - never crashed, never broke anything. I may not be the fastest but probably one of the safest drivers Also yesterday I realized I wasn't that slow. Staff at the track told me these were good times and clean driving especially for a car with street tires. I was playing with folks wearing track tires. That said, factory drivers make a lap in 1'45 so I'm still 3 sec behind! A lot, but I think I can see where I lose time. Looks like I got the virus again, now I can't think of anything but going back on the track !!!

You should consult with current C4S drivers on here about turning off PSM during track events. That throttle by wire PSM chopped my gas a few times when a drift and correction occurred. I think you still get ABD and AWD with the PSM turned off? I think it's worth a discussion given your advanced driving experience.

Thanks, I forgot to mention that I have never driven a Porsche at Laguna. Once with a 335is and yesterday a E90 M3. My C4S was invalidated by a damaged CV joint. The path I mentioned is what I believe is the best for the M3 (not sure though) and am wondering about a 911. PSM on the 996 is not very advanced. Mine has been RWD converted. I know it will seriously lack LSD on track but am willing to track it anyway

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My best is 1:44.35 on Hoosier R6s. And yes, you want PSM turned off.

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Just curious, what's the off-track weight of your car (with you in it)?

Never weighed it but from a weight standpoint it's about stock. My *** adds 275 lbs. I've had a bunch of suspension mods and added some safety gear (roll bar, harnesses, etc.). But weight should be within spitting distance of stock for a 996 C4S (I think abt 3200 lbs) plus me and whatever I had for breakfast.

As a reference, my C2, with full fuel weighs 3175 without my 190 lb butt in the seat. A C4 may come in a tad heavier.

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Those mk1 996's are lighter. The mk2 996's are considerably heavier... my low optioned C2 was over 3400 with me in the car (I weight 200). I'd imagine a stock C4S would be a in the 3400-3500 range with driver.

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I took my '02 targa around Laguna with sumitomos .. Tires were not an issue - keeping gas on the floor over the hills at turn 2 and into the corkscrew is where I lost the most time ! I had the back end wagging a couple of times - but Psm is there to control things - tires behaved well at the limit. My aos didn't seem to handle the high rpm laps so well - plenty of smoke a couple of times after starting the car after cool down and yes - I would be worried about oil starvation at higher g's - I think more than one person has fried their engine doing that - the regular 996s were not build for spirited track duty out of the box ...

According to my prized 2003 911 Dealer Fact Book my '03 C4S is 3,240 lbs "unladen". I recently upgraded to the Porsche Motorsports AOS, and all's well now in terms of smoking. Most techs I've talked with say oil starvation isn't an issue with these cars. I'd think that if it were, running w/ Hoosier R6s would bring it on. It hasn't over the course of about 25 track days.

The M3 is 3500 lbs while I I have 3200 lbs in mind for the C4S which is consistent with your finding Targa: Your AOS may require that you don't overfill with oil. 2/3 is the max I would go if you experience smoke starting the engine after you've pushed it hard without giving it a long enough cooling period. But then I would worry about oil starvation. 996_C4S: I have started the hunt for a TT or GT3 and will probably not track the C4S with Cup tires. I want to see how it behaves compared to the M3 with similar tires. I'm eager to get back to the track, and might do it soon. I'll keep you posted Hopefully this time my 911 and the GoPro will work!!!

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