MB Motorsports Long Block vs. OEM Short Block... Help Me Choose!

Details of my saga are located in another thread, 'Intro and Dismay...' I am getting close to a decision on how to proceed with the rebuild on my 996. Leading candidates are a long block from MB Motorsports or an OEM short block from Porsche (with re-manufactured heads by local shop). Both basically new engines at the end of the day. OEM has 2 yr. warranty, MB has 1 yr. I think the OEM short block will come out to be ~$1,000 cheaper and be quicker lead time to get back on the road, but the MB will have upgraded steel sleeves. Don't plan on tracking the car after all of this, definitely don't plan on driving in the cold, and will going with new fuel injectors and a low temp t-stat in either case. Trying to do all of 'lessons learned' from the experts out there. Help me decide, cast your vote!

MB has been pretty well beaten up on these forums, but there are a few who have been satisfied with their engines - I don't think you're going to get much positive feedback, but I may be wrong. I'm not sure if RND does short blocks, but you should check them out. If they do, that's the way I would go...

There are some Mega Threads on the pros & cons of the 2 versions you are evaluating. I presume you read them and Hartech's alternative ? The other option is RND. http://rndengines.com/ Whatever you choose, I hope you let us know the long term results. Most of us are just opinionated amateurs in this subject so some actual Field Results are very valuable.

I have an MB "Re-Freshed" motor and I love it! No issues... and I Autocross the **** out of it!

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^That's good feedback^ !

Can always go with a GM LS retrofit. Many satisfied with that but I would stay all Porsche. Hope I never have to decide. Good Luck whichever way you go.

Id go with something that doesn't use OE cylinder material.

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I have read lots of threads for sure, not sure if there is one useful one in particular you think I should look at. I've heard of Hartech, but they are in the UK correct? What do they offer differently? The further I go from CT for things the more $$ gets added on just in shipping/freight costs. Always looking to make another option. RND option was $21k out the door from the local shop. Too much for my blood. Thinking this car would only see 7k miles a year, so I'd like to think I will have a few worry free years under my belt. Long term I may look for another p-car or sports car all together.

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Am I correct that you had the scoring issue as well? Think I may have seen your post at some point but can't recall what your end result was.

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correct. I went with new cylinders and pistons from LNE

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What'd that all cost in the end? The extra labor of splitting the case was the big difference in making that option more expensive. Plus the local shop would want to replace all the bolts and bearings in the bottom end to match a Porsche short block. Difference was about ~$4k.

about $18k canadian. Everything inside the block that could be replaced was. new bolts, timing chains, timing chain guides, bearings, etc. I only wanted to do this once. I forgot some dowels in the block so we ended up doing in twice anyways lol

your car running well nowadays AWDGuy?

If I needed an engine it would an MB Motorsports engine. I spent the better part of a year on and off reading all the BS. At the end of the day they build a good motor with upgrades for a damn fair price vs the competition. They have fantastic feedback from the few guys that actually don't give a **** about the politics on here, and I have not found a single person claiming a failed motor failure. His engines look 10x cleaner / newer looking than the others as well.

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I have an MB rebuilt engine as well. I am happy with it, but... MB claims that the waterpump gets replaced when they rebuild. The one on my engine had a metal impeller, but it was the PO that did the engine replacement. Who put the wrong water pump in there? MB? PO? Who knows. In any event, the proper pump is in there now.

Keep the feedback on MB coming. The info is way more useful than the BS - I agree. There is a company in U.K. - Autofarm that uses similar steel sleeves so it is not an MB exclusive.Others may have more info on that ? Hartech is good reading to understand the issues.Baz wrote the book - literally ! Jake also wrote a book but sadly it was never published. All that matters is effectiveness,value and longevity .So if Martin qualifies in those criteria ,he should be acknowledged for doing so. Maybe Martin will write a book ?

After my IMS failure, I had Hartech replace my cilinder liners because I did not like the idea of using cast iron liners. That was in 2013, and the engine has been running strong ever since. Shipping might be a bit more that the other options, but comparing to the total bill it might not be that significant.

I know several racers who went with an OEM short block and have been very happy with it. You can also get a Flat6 stocker installed for under 20K and have an engine that will last you the rest of your life. And the resale of them on BaT has been excellent (speaking from experience.)

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yes but still throwing parts at it. this year : alternator starter y cable end links all around brake pad light came on so need brakes also...but that's expected. new motor is running great though.

AWD: Great to hear your engine problems are behind you! I hope you enjoy it as long as you keep it.

No matter what engine is chosen, don't cut corners, and perform a comprehensive effort. A million dollar engine can be compromised by a bad decision, or something overlooked by an installer that's not experienced with these engines, and their inherent issues. The issue with a short block is critical processes are left up to folks that generally lack experience with those processes, or lack the equipment/ tools to do a proper job. I would never consider selling a short block- I will not leave my reputation up to someone else, tasked with installing cylinder heads, calculating compression ratio, setting cam timing, and etc. Plus, with a short block, who is going to do the head work? Do they know the idiosyncrasies with each cylinder head designation enough to know what it's flaws are? Probably not, so those valve seats that are loose in the 2002 996.1 engine may go un- noticed, and take out the new short block. Already seen that happen. That's just an example. Now, let's talk long blocks... This is a much better and safer alternative to the short block, but still risky, and can still be killed with the wrong idiot with a wrench- no matter how experienced with "Porsche engines" that he may be. Here's two recent examples: -Customer 1 bought a longblock from a provider. This longblock was installed by a normal old Porsche shop.. They did not follow the recommendations from the supplier and failed to install a new AOS vent hose, and either the old one was cracked before, or they cracked it while installing it. Its a 12 year old corrugated plastic pipe- replace the damn thing! Anyway, this lead to a loss of crankcase vacuum, and rich running due to added fuel trim. The engine had issues arise from this that I had to address. The same engine also had a failed cylinder previously, that took out the old engine. No one took the time, or cared enough to replace the fuel injectors, so it ended up having a recurrence. When we tested the injectors 4 out of 6 were dripping fuel, so when the engine was shut down it would fire up every time with fuel laden cylinders. Poof- there it went again. A total lack of experience with these engines, and the things to catalyze failures lead to both those mistakes. Customer 2: Similar scenario, except he had intermixed oil, and coolant... The injectors were said to have been "cleaned and flow tested", yet they were not. The shop cannot supply record of this being done, and they did not invoice for it. Same issue, rich running, fuel laden cylinders, and issues within 1,500 miles. Neither of these were our engines. Both of these people stated AFTER they had problems and the cars had to be sent to us that they considered our program "but could not wait that long". Guess what, now they are out more time, and more money. People always think that cheaper, and faster is just as good as one human who is a member of the original M96 team of pioneers doing the work. Haste makes waste, and people have to experience this themselves to appreciate it. I let them learn, and when they come back, they shut their mouths, and open their wallets, as they have learned who set the bar the hard way. Things have changed in the last few years. In the old days all the engines we saw were virgins with factory issues that we had to rectify. Today we have to rectify the factory problems, as well ad the problems that come from haphazard assembly, crappy valve jobs, sub- standard knock- off components, and mass production of engines from these other people who have popped up, riding on our coat tails. It ends up not being quite as easy as they thought it was. I refuse to allow anyone to be in control of our successes by fitting components to an engine, or fitting an engine to a car. The reason we stay at the top is because we don't give problems an opportunity to take us out. I won't trust anyone to do anything that doesn't happen under my roof, where we are in total control. We collect the vehicle, and one person who has been chosen by me will complete 100% of the processes with that one car, from A-Z. My "newest" engine builder has been here for 8 years, he was trained for the first 5 of those years, my longest has been here 19 years. When we carry out our practices the same pair of hands, and the same mind will extract the engine from the car, disassemble it, measure it, document it, clean it, and then carry out all machine work (except Nickies cylinders done by LN). That same person will then balance the assembly, assemble the components, fit all the ancillaries, fit the engine back into the car, and perform the first start, No one else touches the car or that engine until this process has been complete by that one human. Through all these processes, my shop Foreman signs off on their work, verifies torques, and checks installations along the way, there's always a second pair of eyes watching whats going on. Then I take over, and do my part, testing the car for the first 104 miles, and doing my break in. That's what we do. That's what people pay for here, and that's why it works. Since I saw injectors taking out cylinders a decade ago we've been replacing them, so those issues don't plague us. I see the same issues taking out these engines assembled by "others" over and over again. Its clear that they just started throwing these engines together, and are learning from their mistakes that are made on the customer's engines. Nothing like a little "paid, on the job training". What I want to get across here is what it takes to have a positive experience with these engines. These things are either not considered, or they "take too much time".... Or (most likely) the installer is ignorant and breaks the first rule of engine building. "assume nothing, and quantify everything". Successes are built on comprehensive efforts, carried out by people who refuse to take short cuts, and don't haphazardly throw things together based on calendars, or clocks. I treat engine building like I do when I walk through the swamp behind my shop... There's always a snake ready to bite me, and I have to kill him, before he kills me. Engine building is like walking through a viper pit, blindfolded. Some bites may hurt, others may kill you. With engine builders, there are "heros". and "zeros"... No in between. Either it really works, or it really doesn't. You won't get a second chance, so make that first choice wisely. So, outfit that shortblock the right way... No matter where it comes from.

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Always very insightful Jake! I completely understand your thoughts on installing a short block correctly and having the heads properly re-finished. Where the car currently sits, the shop owner has already quoted completely restored heads from a shop they trust, new AOS, newe injectors, etc. They have been building race 996's for years and have a loyal following in my area. They have done about 25-30 of these short blocks and have also done the Nickies route for some customers. Some other shops in the area won't split cases on these water cooled 911's, but this shop quoted all of the options they felt comfortable with. I trust them about as much as I can at this moment. I also trust that if the install kills the engine that they will take care of it. Trust is earned and so far they have done it - time will tell if they continue to hold it. BTW - do you have any idea what sort of changes have been made to these shortblocks? Is it just IMS upgrade? There was some threads I saw on other sites that made it seem like they had some subtle upgrades in the cylinder department but can't get this verified anywhere.

Cooling system mods- search for "epoxy" in that context ?

No other upgrades that I have seen when tearing them down.. Cylinders and pistons are the same. Its based on a replacement engine, as a like item.

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Great review. I have an engine there being rebuilt for my 987. Glad to hear the work is great and the engines makes the car good again.

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I hope they r still good that review was posted 3.5 yrs ago.

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^^^ It's also the only good review I've ever heard of for them... When I initially replied 3 years ago or whatever, I was fully expecting to see a bunch of "happy buyer" type reviews, but they never materialized... I wonder why...

Not that crazy Martin guy!

How many people have actually had a rebuild from MB (Martin) Fail? All BS aside from the previous drama...

Here's all you need to know about Marty: 1) he was sent a Cease & Desist letter from Porsche 2) he was banned from Rennlist. Twice. 3) he was banned from the 986Forum 4) he was banned from Pelican

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people would complain viscously if their work wasn�t good. seems like this board and ones like it have a gang war feel :-) they are good cars with trash engines. I think it would be more classy to judge people on their work quality vs their popularity plus they do tons of work so people must be recommending them highly. peace

Tell Marty "hello" when you see him.