IMS on a Tiptronic?, nope, it was a water pump

I put this thread up a few weeks ago when after a hour's highway drive my C4 Tip was making a "rotational rattling noise", loud enough to be heard from the driver's seat (top down). Sounding like a tin box of rocks, I went into panic thinking that it was the IMS bearing. I trailer'd the car 140 miles to my Indy and sought his consolation for my misery. He called the other day to tell me it was a water pump. I pick the car up this Thursday the 9th of August. We will see how many more miles I get out of the original IMS bearing. The original thread, to wit: I suppose there is no reason why a tiptronic equipped car should be immune to engine component failure. Any one heard of a tip equipped car with a failed IMS? I did a search and yep, tip cars are not immune. I have the "can of rocks" sound. I plan on flat bedding the car to my Indy. Car has 126k on the clock. I will look at the oil filter tomorrow. Not going to start the car. period. What the hell, with this kind of mileage, it is as good a time as any to do a refresh as any. I feel blessed I didn't chernoble the engine. Drove the car 75 miles today. Noticed the noise when I pulled into the garage. Thoughts?

Thinking good thoughts for you. My local indy thinks that the tips are more prone to problems. But, a local guy who is doing some research on the IMS problem said that he has found the tips to be less of a problem. Who knows... Good luck!

I doubt MT or Tip makes a difference. Hope you get good news tomorrow.

I have seen multiple case of both. Low mileage and high mileage of both -- doesn't seem to matter. Mike

best wishes for your car. I also have a tip and my indy said tips are less prone to IMS woes (fingers crossed).

My understanding Gretch is that tips are less prone to IMS than a manual transmission, but now you are tilting the scales. Who's your indy?

EPE in Natick. Jerry and his crew know their stuff. At 126k on the clock, it is a good time for a refresh anyway........ Happened abruptly. Car sounded fine on saturday when I waxed it. marbles in a coffee can after a drive to airport and back on Tuesday. Gonna check the oil filter this morning when I get a break. rear window (it is a cab) needs a refresh anyway, so this is the year. As posted above, I am relieved it did not STB on the way home and leave me stranded. I like this car, she will be back!

The false notion that tips are less IMS-prone comes from the typical mechanic's lack of comprehension of the basics of statistics. There are simply less tips out there, so naturally the shops would see less of them with IMS...or any other defect.

I have a theory that the average tip does not generally rev as high as the average 6 speed and that may also have some impact. I would think higher revving engines would also show a higher incidence of IMS bearing failure. Of course in my case...... the statistics are moot.

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I would think that's true also - in the auto mode, tip will shift straight to 5th essentially 95% of the time the car is running, so the bearing just doesn't revolve as much.

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Yeah, I hear ya but you could easily argue the opposite. "higher revving engines provide additional lubrication intrusion into a IMS bearing where the seal has already been compromised and that's why you see so few track cars with IMS problems." This statement above could be crap, the Tip statement could be crap, hell, most likely they are both crap! "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a totsie pop? The world may never know......"

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I've read that before and I'm not so sure I believe that statement - bearing grease is way thicker than anything you put in the motor and I don't see how more rotation would make any significant more flow of the oil inside of the bearing. If anything, the cornering and acceleration/braking g loads would soak it somewhat more.

Update. There is no metal in the oil filter. There is also no oil seepage anywhere on the bottom side of the engine tranny. I do note that there is a loose baffle on the passenger side muffler that makes noise when I bump the muffler with my fist. What other symptoms if any should I look for? I am tempted to start it and listen closely for the (seeming) source of the noise.... What if anything can I do (without destroying the engine) to be certain the engine must come out to have the IMS inspected and or replaced?

I'd pull the pan and see if there's crap in there / in the oil.

If bearing goes, does it end up in the sump? I repeat, there is no metal in filter.

What I have always heard was that there were less RMS (not IMS) failures on Tip cars. Maybe this is where the confusion is. Could be your Cats????

Doh, my tip had several RMS in its second year.

did a brief sound test in my garage. top down, started car from outside, listened at both mufflers and at bottom of engine case. The noise is in the engine case, it is rotational and it sounds like a tin box of rocks being shaken. Started fine ran fine, test lasted no longer then 30 seconds. On the trailer she goes. What ever the noise is, it is new and it is coming from the engine case. time to go see the Doctor. Thanks for the thoughts, people.

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Damn, that aint good!

well it is not as bad as losing the engine while driving, getting stranded and having to replace said engine. Hey, stuff happens. I like the car and have no intention of throwing it away. It may be as simple as installing the upgraded IMS. While in there I will have the valve drive train refreshed. I was likely going to do this after another 25k miles anyway. Marc, I appreciate the sentiment, but nothing lasts forever, and certainly not without care and maintenance. It will be interesting to see what Jerry P finds in the motor. Either way, she will live again!

No doubt you've read all there is on IMS and the sound of the 'death rattle'. I'd refrain from stating the engine again, that's when you can seriously damage your engine IF it is an IMSB failure. Your Indy can then confirm what is at hand.Best of luck Gretch, hope it's something else.

Yup, agreed. I had a LOT of trepidation starting the engine for the sound test this morning. I had several conversations with Jerry about it. The clean oil and filter really threw me, I expected to find metal in the filter. The car was running smoothly enough when I put it away last evening and the noise had only recently started. I admit, I took a risk and it was probably a poor choice, but the loose baffle in the passenger side muffler had me thinking I had over reacted. Uncertainty is a torturous bitch and not being sure was killing me. I have to trailer the car 2.5 hours to Jerry and I just did not want to do that trip only to have him tell me the muffler was the culprit. Anyway, I got away with it and now I am certain the engine is on the fuzzy edge, but likely savable. I like this car, and have been down this path before with vehicles I like.

Hoping for good news tomorrow. Please keep us posted!

Hey Gretch, any news on your 996 ?

Crossing my fingers for you! As you know from my post the other day, I decided to change the bearing (turns out it's in perfect shape) as I was just tired of the 'drama' of never knowing if it was going to go one day. The impetus for this was a horrendous rattle from the back end while driving home the other day. Turns out it may be a baffle that has come loose inside the passenger side can. So it's the perfect time to change/check stuff - the old 'while you're in there mode' and it's sitting on the engine stand... getting the AOS changed out just because, plugs and coils. Thinking about the water pump as well. A general once over. The tires were removed from the rims and I took the rims out for powder coating and have to run out now to pick them up as I don't want to tie up my indy's hoist. So good luck Gretch, I hope it's not as bad as you think.

So if there is no debris in the oil filter, and indeed the IMSB is the culprit, then can we confirm the IMS Guardian product will NOT provide advance warning of IMSB failure?

When my engine shut down, a fast diagnosis for major internal chaos was to pop the little plastic caps off the ends of the cams to check their orientation. Damaged IMS bearing means chains start flapping around, sending timing off etc, etc.

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YES!!!!!!!! I dodged a HUGE bullet!!!!!! The rapping was the water pump! and it was not leaking a single drop of coolant. rollers, belt, pump, alternator, plugs and coils for my Girl and we are back in business! OH MAN what a relief!!!!!!!! I won't forget that trip any time soon!

^Great news!

Heeeey, congrats! Sleep well tonight?! Rollers? why change the rollers? Is that common?

JP has been my Indy since 1992......... I do what he tells me and simply write him a check. he has never let me down and has always treated me fairly. I believe he has a favorite saying "cruel but fair", gets a chuckle out of me every time. He said do the rollers....... we are doing the rollers. my car has a buck twenty six on the clock....... so anything he can get to that is a wear item..... makes sense to me.

Great news for you Gretch, you did dodge a bullet.

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nk! Love that Guards red

Great news!

Congrats! Had a "death rattle" early in my ownership. Called my Indy and he said, "That's not good, where's the car?". So he comes out (makes a housecall!) and looks it over. Starts the car! Hears the sound and lifts the rear deck lid to check the engine. Turns out the plastic cover over the fan was cracked so the fan hitting the plastic sounded like a baseball card in your bicycle spoke, only much louder. We both got a chuckle out of that one! Glad to hear you will be up and running soon

That is a mighty fine little red sports car you have there...... I am partial to the color!

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Ditto. Digging your wheels!

Great News. It's Miller time.

Wow, what a relief! That is one check you will gladly write!!!

Love a happy ending.

and this is what a Tip looks like coming out for an IMS man, what a big ugly trans (but sure shifts nice!) but overall, the IMS job on a Tip is pretty much an easy-peasy job

A lift and tranny jack like that help to make it easy-peasy! Nice!

I was told that with a Tip, both engine and trans need to be removed to do a RMS and or IMS repari??

Whew! That is great news!

Well guys i had to grab a soccer ball underneath my car only to find a small amount of oil (see pic). I think it may be RMS related....hoping not IMS. I called two shops local in the Metro Detroit area and they both want around $1,200 just to replace the RMS. They both also recommeneded changing the IMS just to be safe which would cost me another $1,000 or so. I am wondering if anyone knows of any local shops which can do the job for much less? Also, is it necessary to spend the extra money in IMS? Only reason asking is i was planning on selling the car in next month or so, need the cash. Any recommendations are appreciated! Also, both shops said since it is a Tiptronic, they would need to remove the engine and transmission (plus suspension) doesn't seem right. Thanks! 2000 996 Tiptronic 51k miles.....thanks!

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My car is a C4 and a tip...... Stealership attempted to charge me $1,800 to R&R the engine just to replace the AOS back a few years ago. I don't know how much this is going to cost, and I don't really care........ I will never take either of my P cars to a dealership for repairs again.

By any chance was it in Stratham, NH ?

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I had my RMS/IMS done early last month, trans came out, engine stayed in. Done by an Indy.

When I had my IMS done I had the water pump changed at the same time - one of those while you are in there type of things.

make sure the wrench installing the IMS properly coats the bolts with sealer when installing. i have a post w/photos showing install/sealant application on my 99 996 last year.

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To go to the dealership you have to really want to **** away money for no reason. Coolant pipes on my Cayenne recently went a couple weeks back: dealer price $3200. My Indy, half that including an oil change, AC service and they even washed my truck.

Tis why the term "stealership" my friend. I trust my indy and he is a confidant and friend. the dealership, not so much, (even though a good guy works there)

I pick the car up on Thursday..... that was quick.