59 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHBack to stock ECU flash question
Reported or suspected cause
cvn and the calid fields
Reported cause
No successful repair reported for this finding.
1
Identified cause
0
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that report identifying a cause
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Reported cause · Original poster
We've learned specifically the issue is with the CVN AND the CALID fields.
Leading evidence: 'cvn and the calid fields' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'cvn and the calid fields' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check stock porsche' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Anytime a calibration is changed the new calibration must be sent to EPA to be certified and receives a new ID number.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
There is no telling what the tuner hacked into and changed within the DME that is not rewritten by the factory program.
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Suggestion
I'll look through the software in simulation mode (which doesn't have all the functions only the functions from the last car the software read) and see if there are any other areas where values can be changed for emissions related items.
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Suggestion · Original poster
If it does not, then my two options are sell the car, or park it until 2020 when it's 15 years old and these rules no longer apply (unless of course MA changes the rules again).
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
59 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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2 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
I am having a nightmare of a time here in MA getting my 2005 996 to pass inspection. It turned out a previous owner flashed the ECU, so when I went to a local station for inspection, the computer flagged me so I have to go to a state run facility where you're given a proctology exam. The state mandates a stock or CARB certified exhaust so I had to acquire one to go back to stock. A well known tuner provided me with stock firmware to flash back.
I went today to have the state do their thing and it failed because the ECU checksum was wrong. The tuner spoke with the agent who was very helpful and the guess is that the checksum is wrong because the previous flash overwrote something in either the gauge cluster code, airbag code or alarm code part of the ECU which the tuner's stock code doesn't overwrite. (Thanks, very well known tuner
)
I called a local Porsche dealership (3 actually) and they all seem a little bit confused about what I want done. One of them quoted me over $5K as "we have to replace the ECU".
I specifically explained I needed a full ECU flash, including the items I mentioned above (gauge cluster, etc) and was hesitantly told yes, they can do that. But I don't have a lot of confidence they understand what I need especially since I don't totally understand myself.
Any suggestions on how to better explain to a dealership what it is I need to have done to make sure it's done right the first time?
Thanks.
I've been going through the same challenge with my TT. Have called 2 dealerships who were confused, and never called me back.
I have no experience personally, but
http://www.ecudoctors.com/
is a forum sponsor, with good reviews from what I've seen. If I keep striking out with the local dealerships, I may go that route.
Thanks, I checked out that site and their FAQ but it seems they just deal with the ECU hardware itself rather than the software. I'm pretty sure that Porsche is the only one that can fix this. We have stock 04 X50 TT software loaded but that wasn't good enough. I need the 'full' software which includes the other things I mentioned (this is for an 05 TTS which is essentially an 04 X50)
I've had trouble with the dealership and programming as well. To to the degree of an ECU flash but other DME functions. Can you find an Indy with a PIWIS II?
I am retired from the Porsche dealership and have reprogrammed/flashed many 996's. I can assume the reason that the dealerships are confused by your request is that there are no full/partial reprogramming, "it is what it is". They will have the newest PIWIS version update which will have the newest version of the software for your specific car( that is of course certified by EPA).
When reprogramming a 996 with PIWIS tester you select model, car type, engine size, transmission type, emission level (ROW, OBDII LEV, ect.) then program, there is no "full" or "partial" program/flash.
There is no telling what the tuner hacked into and changed within the DME that is not rewritten by the factory program.
A reputable tuner "should" have the complete file that was read out from a stock DME to "write" into your DME to return it to stock.
Another option could be to purchase a used DME of the exact type as your car and "read" it ,and then "write" it to your DME using a tool such as Galletto 1260, or the Pro's use Winols to read and write.
Also instead of reading and writing the engine management program to your DME, you could have the used DME immobilizer and VIN number programmed to your car and have 2 DME's that you could use. You would probably not get a dealership to perform anything like that with used DME's because there is too much to go wrong (besides not making any money off a part sale), if there is a mistake (like entering "O" instead of an "0") when entering the "old" and "new" immobilizer codes, ( you must have the code for the donor car and the code for your car)it could cause the DME's to be useless.But it never hurts to ask, you may get lucky and the dealer tech may be confident enough that he will do it if you take the risk. I mean what other choices do you have?
Not to derail this thread but can a PIWIS II see when an DME has been modified or "flashed"?
Sounds like this "reputable tuner" needs to provide some more support.
I don't have a lot of experience but have been starting to learn the PIWIS II software (with the assistance of Porschetech3
) and I don't really remember seeing any areas that can be flashed apart from I think a section that might have been about the catalytic converters.
I'll look through the software in simulation mode (which doesn't have all the functions only the functions from the last car the software read) and see if there are any other areas where values can be changed for emissions related items.
Although dealerships are now on PIWIS III so the screenshots I send might not be relevant anymore but I guess it would be better than nothing.
The PIWIS tester can read out information on the number of times the DME has been programmed , but not whether or not it was programmed with an unauthorized program.
The Porsche Tech department used to say that they could tell by the last digit of a particular value that it had been modified,but then they found out that the hackers could modify the program without effecting that particular value, so basically no they can't tell unless the checksum is messed up like in the OP's case.
The VAL ( vehicle analysis log) will show how many times the DME has been programmed/flashed.It is about 30 something pages on a 996..50 something pages on a 997 IIRC
Not trying to be a smarta$$ but how many miles do you drive between renewals? Here in MO my '96 993 would not pass inspection (they plug into your ECU on 96 and newer cars) due to readiness flags not showing set. I ended up getting a waiver because I drove less than 2500 miles a year. I had to take the previous inspection form and the current print-out showing the failure and mileages and they gave me the waiver. Might be worth checking out?
The people's republic of Massachusetts considers any modifications to an ECU to be tampering. There is no waiver for tampering. Even though I'm running Porsche firmware on the ECU and it passes all emissions checks and all safety checks, MA will not give it a sticker because of the wrong checksum on the ECU code. If the CRC doesn't match, you're done. As a tech guy that's had to deal with many CRC algorithms, it's hard enough to work with on a PC with tons of tools, but on what is essentially a black box on a car, it's not going to be possible to troubleshoot. My hail mary is to have Porsche flash it on Sept 7, drive the hour back to the state emissions place, and pray the CRC matches. If it does not, then my two options are sell the car, or park it until 2020 when it's 15 years old and these rules no longer apply (unless of course MA changes the rules again).
They actually do change again in Oct 2017, when the state mandates all local inspection stations install cameras that feed back to the state.
I truly don't get what these draconian laws are hoping to accomplish. If the car isn't exceeding federal emissions laws, that's not good enough?
I just did a bit more research and apparently I can challenge the ruling. So that's my third option if the Porsche flash doesn't work.
Challenging a Vehicle Inspection Failure
If your vehicle failed a safety or emissions check and you disagree, you may challenge the results by completing an Inspection Complaint Form. To do so:
Call the RMV Safety and Compliance Department at [phone removed] and request a challenge test.
Complete the Inspection Complaint Form and mail it to the address listed at the top of the form.
But further down it also says (bolding is theirs)
The emissions control system on your vehicle
must be intact and free of any evidence of tampering.
The Porsche dealer that you are going to doesnt do emissions testing there? Ive seen some that do.
That last one is gonna be what they deny you on when you appeal it. There is obvious evidence of tampering.
If I were you I would sell the car and get something that will pass emissions in MA.
The car was flagged at a local inspection station because of the modified ECU. That blocks ANY inspection in the state from passing me until the flag is cleared by a state licensed agency (of which there are maybe 10). This agency is the one saying the CRC doesn't match and they can't clear the flag until it does. They have been good to work with, walking me through everything, the guy doing this job is just a mechanic that was contracted by the state, so he's not being a dick about it, but he has rules he has to follow one of which is this matching CRC. He doesn't dispute at all that the car passes emissions and safety. We're stuck on a technicality. I would hate to sell the car and lose the thousands I have invested after the purchase into trying to get it to pass (not to mention the $4K in sales tax I paid to the state).
If the Porsche flash doesn't work, then I probably don't have a choice. This post was made in order to understand what to ask of Porsche but it seems it's simple. There's only one thing they can do, flash the ECU and then I take it back and hope the CRC now matches.
Nothing emissions related in the DME, as Porschetech3 mentioned it only has the ability to write without options from what I can see. Although it does have choices of which to use - RoW, x51 etc. I'll keep looking over the weekend.
I could, but my concern is that it still won't match the CRC that the state is looking for. I have a stock 2004 X50 flash on there now, I'm if the ECU code is different for the 2005 Turbo S (resulting in a different CRC). That would mean I need to find an ECU from a Turbo S which there aren't very many of, then hope that it was never flashed, which I'd have no way of knowing. I feel like I'm at the point where I'm starting to throw good money after bad and just throwing stuff at the wall hoping something will work.
I'll pay Porsche to do the 2005 flash and pray that works. If not, I guess I sell the car. My wife doesn't want to move to NH.
As someone pointed out earlier, you should contact ECUDoctors. You are wrong that they just deal with the hardware. They have all the abilities to program the ECU and Immobilizer. Call them and ask your questions. They have helped a great many people and respond quickly. I don't know why you would not at least call them. Ask them, can you program my 2005 Turbo S ECU to stock with a correct CRC? I'll bet they say yes.
Thanks Joe, I wasn't familiar with them so I went to their website and their FAQ stated "No, once we repair your unit, it will be "Plug and Play". We only work on the "Hardware" of the ECU's therefore we don't deal with the software programming."
So I was just going off what I read on their website. In any case Porsche obviously can do it and if there is any possibility of somehow my making a case to the state, I can say I went to Porsche. They were already questioning the ECU source when I got it from a tuner. So this way nobody can question the source and I will have documentation.
Things didn't go so well today, would appreciate some input.
I had spoken via phone the other week with a Porsche dealership in Burlington, MA who told me this was a pretty routine matter and it would be one hour labor and I could wait while they did the work. I made an appointment and showed up for that today.
Once I was there, the service guy said he saw this scheduled for today and had questions. We reviewed everything that needed to be done, he brought out one of the mechanics who went into stuff like having to get codes from Porsche Germany for each option, X50 option, immobilizer codes, and there was a bunch of manual work so the service guy revised his estimate to 5 hours. I tried to explain to him that we'd discussed all this on the phone and they were very clear on what needed to be done during that call. I was told I must have talked to a secretary and should have just come in to talk to them instead of calling.
The experience left a very bad taste in my mouth so I left and drove to a Porsche dealership in Stratham, NH that I had also spoken with the same day I called the other dealership.
In Stratham I was told that their service tech said that Porsche can't wipe what's on the ECU and reinstall everything clean, it copies parts of what's already on the ECU, then updates anything that's not the latest and then moves it all back. It was contrary to everything I've read and he admitted that they're not entirely familiar with how it all works but he has to go with what his tech tells him and that because they were concerned that the car could be left in a state where it wouldn't start and might need a new ECU, they couldn't help me unless I wanted to buy a new ECU.
I'm trying to get a better sense still of what this really involves and how the heck to have an intelligent conversation with a Porsche dealer about it. I still have a couple more dealers I can try but I hate having a technical conversation about something I really don't understand especially when I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies that the dealership may not really understand either.
I talked to George @ ECUdoctor, he's about to be hit by Irma but is going to look into it next week. He has never heard of the CVN so I sent him a bit of info and also put him in touch with the MA inspection guy I'm working with. Conveniently, he also has a 2005 911 Turbo S and said after the storm passes, he will spend a bit of time investigating this.
Jorge from ECUdoctors has been emailing with the inspection guy and myself. We've learned specifically the issue is with the CVN AND the CALID fields. Jorge took a test unit and videoed himself pulling those fields off his 911 and sent them to the inspection guy. The inspection guy says the fields on Jorge's stock 911 are also invalid. WTF. So it seems that no matter what I do, or how much money I spend, there is a huge risk that I'm still not going to pass, even if I were to buy a brand new ECU. So it seems my options are move out of MA (my wife says NO) or sell the car
Damn !! So this is caused by someone changing some things in the ECU, that cannot be undone? No matter what? no program rewrite it? Not even a new ECU? I don't understand this..
Your best bet is prolly to sell the car. Have you tried getting in touch with the governing agency and see if there is some kind of waiver that can acquired. I refuse to believe that having a factory replaced ECU should cause a failure. That basically saying that anyone in the state of Mass that has an ECU failure is screwed, no way that can be the case.
One thing that comes to mind about installing a NEW ECU is that in Piwis II there are options for "reading and writing" from the old ecu ( Things like Vin number and coding) on ECU's that CAN be communicated with. There is also the option to install and program the ECU WITHOUT reading the old ECU, and install Vin and coding manually on ECU's that CANNOT be communicated with (fried)(OR are CORRUPTED).
While this is not spelled out step by step by the Piwis II, the procedure does exist , and is at the discretion of the Technician as to whether to "read and write" or not, ( and the TECH must be familiar with this procedure)
If the Technician does not "read anything" from the old ECU , I see no way for the bad data to be transferred to the new ECU.
So while it is an expensive option, Installing the NEW ECU, WITHOUT reading from the old ECU in my mind, may solve the issue !!
Someone overwrote the CVN and CALID fields in the ECU. They are now blank. MA is looking for specific values in those fields to tell them that the ECU programming in the car is OEM Porsche and has not been modified. I believe the CVN is a checksum value computed based on the rest of the code.
I do not know what values are being looked for by MA, if I give them a value they will tell me yes or no, but they will not tell us what values should be in those fields. So Jorge gave them the values from his stock ECU and MA looked them up and said that as far as the state's concerned, the values don't match anything they have, so they wouldn't pass his FL car if it ever came to MA.
I have thought about talking with my state rep, but I also know how long that can drag out, assuming any action is even taken. I wasn't quite to the point where I was ready to involve her but I guess it can't hurt.
To be honest though my anxiety level is so high now over this car, I just want to make it go away (at a fair price). Every time I get in it, I just get worried about the whole situation. I paid MA $3000 in taxes for NO REASON at this point, so also want to see if there is a way to reclaim those but I don't think there is. I've looked at opening a business in NH and registering it there, but I don't want to do all these workarounds, they're costly, time consuming and stressful and I did something similar 20 years ago and ended up in court because a butthurt cop thought I was trying to avoid paying sales tax on my NSX. I have a car that passes safety check and emissions, but I can't legally drive it. This car is 100% legal in 48 (possibly 49) other states!!!
The whole situation is just very upsetting. It's a gorgeous, gorgeous car and it's a unicorn. A blue Turbo S cabrio 6MT took me a year to find and it's a crappy time of year to be selling a cabrio.
This is interesting as Porsche told me they cannot help because the only option is to read from the existing ECU and rewrite using that code. They said the only option to completely wipe the code and start fresh was buying a new ECU for $4000+labor.
If you said that would 100% solve the problem, MAYBE I would consider that route, but again it comes down to will the values returned in the two questionable fields match what MA has on record. If they do not, I've thrown away thousands of good $$ after bad $$$. And given that we've checked a stock Porsche with MA, and were told it would not pass, I'm not convinced that a new ECU would pass. There's nothing wrong with my ECU anyway. That's like buying a new computer and reinstalling all your software because solitaire won't run on your current Windows computer. Everything else on your computer works fine though.
IF the ONLY option was to read from the OLD ECU then, then a fried ECU would kill/total the car !!
The fact that the Florida car does not have the correct CALID ( calibration identification number) and CVN ( calibration verification number )(checksum) is a puzzle. You mean to say that this car right off the import ship would not have passed MA CALID and CVN checks? That would be a MAJOR problem !!!
Calibration levels can be programmed straight from the PIWIS tester. Options include ROW, X50, OBDII,OBDII LEV,China, Market A, Market B, Market C, ect. depending on model. Most models only have 3-4 options.
Your calibration would be OBDII LEV, unless you have a X50 option witch I think is in another step , and another step will be transmission option manual/automatic.
Apply for an Emissions Waiver...you pass all the other tests
http://www.massvehiclecheck.com/motorist_questions.html
Your problem is not with your ECU or the actual emissions test which you said passed. Your problem is a technical issue.
I already went down the waiver road. The waiver is only valid if the car was not 'tampered' with. Having non-stock ECU is considered tampering thus the waiver process is not an avenue I can take. Even though mine is MOSTLY stock, my blank fields (which flashing back to stock using the tuner I mentioned did not populate nor was it expected to, his flash isn't designed to do that and we didn't know about that issue at the time we flashed) indicate it is NOT stock as far as MA is concerned. Thanks for researching that though!
And yes, assuming Jorge is indeed running stock code as he says he is, then it would have failed right off the boat. It could be there is something wrong with the test database MA is using, but how do I prove that short of a lawsuit and discovery?
For the CALID and CVN, are you saying that there are only a few valid results that can be returned? I was sort of wondering if the VIN worked into it so that every single vehicle would have a different result. And would you expect 2004 X50 (or 2003 X50, etc) be any different than 2005 Turbo S (which is X50)?
I know how you can flash it back to stock. An ECU tuner. They have stock files and can flash cars back to stock. I know a distributor that could probably do it for you but he would probably charge something. Anyways its probably worth the try. He would need your ECU code to start to see if he has the file. If you want send me your ecu number through PM and ill pass it on to him and also send you his info.
I have no idea if the Vin number is added to or multiplied by the calibration number for form some obscure number, I doubt it, but it is certainly possible.
The calibrations have to be EPA approved in the US, some other country's have a lot less restrictions , the calibrations may be different due to the emission laws, availability and quality of the available fuel.
The calibrations can be updated for better emissions, performance, or to cure a particular complaint from a certain condition in a particular part of the country. Anytime a calibration is changed the new calibration must be sent to EPA to be certified and receives a new ID number. The new calibration supersedes the older version but BOTH are EPA approved and valid unless the calibration is recalled. Older cars with the same engine COULD have the original version or a superseded version(if one is available). The Piwis II tester at the dealership will have latest calibration for that particular emission level/engine type/year model.
That's where I started. A tuner flashed me back to stock, but the flash does not overwrite/replace the CALID/CVN fields. I need a tune that is stock and sets those to a value that the state finds acceptable (and we don't know what values are acceptable because the state won't tell us). Somewhere in the history of this car, those fields were wiped out by another tuner and now we can't figure out what to put them back to.
Quite a frightening saga - please keep us updated. For those living in tough emission states (CA, MA and others) I guess part of any PPI now will be can the car pass emission testing.
The problem is I bought the car in MI. It would pass emissions in MI. Once I got it to MA, it would not pass as the rules are different. I don't think there is any possible way any PPI done in Michigan could have answered the question 'will the car pass emissions in MA'.
Had I known the ECU had been modified, I could have flashed it via a tuner, threw on some O2 extenders to remove the resulting CEL and passed at a local inspection station. The local station doesn't do this crazy CVN/CALID testing (I don't think).
I've now written to Porsche corporate as well as my state senator and state rep. Don't know how far it will get me, but I'm not sure what else I can do apart from throw money at the problem and hope, and that's a waste of money.
If you live in MA, the solution is either buy a car that's 15 years old (exempt from this mess) or buy a car from someone in MA as if it fails inspection, the seller has to fix it or take back the car (don't quote me on that, but I think that's the case).
I could park the car until 2020 and the problem would go away (assuming the legislation doesn't change) but that's a ridiculous plan.
and just like that the problem is gone. Thank you senator. I got a call from the MA RMV telling me they looked at the test results of my car, everything looks fine, the person I've been dealing with should have allowed it to pass and they have cleared the flag preventing me from getting a sticker.
Hallelujah!!
Headed to get a sticker this afternoon.
Wow! I read this thread with fascination, had so much good technical information, but it did not seem to make sense. I have happy for you and your unicorn!
Funny, I had an issue with the title of my 996, it got sent to USAA (I financed it) with a Nevada title, and some how it went through the system and it was titled in IL, but then Nevada issued another title, etc. I couldn't renew my registration the 2nd year because of this, I went round and round to get it registered again, in the end, all I had to do was to get the "right guy" on the phone and he knew what was going on, had me text him a picture of the VIN plate on the car and BAM it was done.
Talk to the right people, get the right results.
S**t always rolls downhill. Having worked in the middle of the hill before I retired, I've seen that steaming pile go by me as I help gravity take its course.
Whenever I came across a citizen with a real case of unjustified BS from Government - I always pointed them way up the food chain to elected officials. You'd be surprised what happens when a lowly office manager gets a call from the politician's Chief of Staff...
One of our state senators. She used to be one of my city Councillors and I served on a few city committees in the past so we've worked together here and there. I cannot believe how quickly her office fixed this, after months and months of stressing out.
So I now have a sticker. But the evil Norse god Metzger simply wasn't happy about that at all. Right after getting my sticker, I drove to my shop around the corner to make an appointment for some routine maintenance. I walked out of the shop and went to start the car. It barely started. I put my foot on the brake and all sorts of warning lights came on. WTF?? Windows rolled down slowly. My mechanic came out and did a quick battery/alternator test. I had to leave the car there, looks like the ghost of Ferdinand wanted to take one last swing at me and killed my alternator in a fit of F.U.
I got to enjoy my elation over getting a sticker for all of 10 minutes.
That's awesome!!! Glad you got it worked out. Too bad you had to jump through hoops because some non- abstract thinking, follow the rules at all costs, mindless, pencil pushing...etc...etc...etc...dolt, wouldn't pick up the phone and find out if there was anything he/she could do to help you out! Good call on going to your State Rep. I wonder if you didn't have the previous personal connection whether you would have gotten the: "we're very sorry there's nothing we can do for you, it's out of our hands" speech...you know the one...
Honestly that's completely what I expected. I didn't talk directly to her and I figure her office is probably understaffed and has way too much to do without worrying about some guy's 1st world problems. It was probably 15 minutes between the time I got the email from her office and the time the RMV called telling me the flag was cleared. I'm still kind of in a state of shock that this ordeal is actually over just that quickly.
Let me also give a HUGE thanks to Jorge at ECU Doctors. Thank you too, to the people here that turned me on to him. He was sending the inspection guy videos and pictures of his testing on his own Porsche and doing research on the OBDII $S09 responses right after he had been hit by a hurricane. I offered to pay him for his time and he declined saying he'd just appreciate a good reference. I can't give a good enough reference for Jorge. He was amazing dealing with this state bozo.
