Convince me to buy a 996.2 C4s!

Hi! I fell in love with a 2002 C4s and have been doing so much research on this car. So much so that I might have scared myself out of buying one for the 2nd time... I know most folks feel the 996 is a ticking time bomb that will spontaneously combust from some combination of acronyms failing. But with that said...there must be SOMEONE on this forum who's driven their 996 semi-regularly in cold weather and not carried a boroscope in their pocket along with an IMS repair kit and spare RMS. These seem like excellent vehicles and I'm sure like Yelp and other forums, people post more bad/issues than "This was a great year of driving my 996 with only a handful of small maintenance items to address" Is anyone out there brave enough to admit they fearlessly drive their 996 more than 2000 miles a year?!

I've put 40k miles on my 03 4s since March 2019 and another 23k miles on a 09 4s in the past 18 months. Do all the required maintenance and drive the crap out of them. That said, don't buy one without spending on a proper PPI including bore scoping via the sump. Be advised, purchase price is just the initiation fee, these cars come with monthly dues and an occasional special assessment.

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What you have to do is, stop reading rennlist for a while ( I even read here the other day that you should change all the cooling lines and oil lines... ) and look for information in other sources, books, magazines reviews from the period of the car, today's reviews, etc. You will find that they were and are really pure 911 every day joyful sport cars. Buy the best unit and best maintained unit that you can. Keep a good maintenance, keep on eye in what we know can be weak points of these engines (oil consumption, oil leaks, debris in the oil filter, etc) and you will find that there are out there hundred of thousands of units of these engines (996/986/997/987) running for hundred of thousands miles without more problems than any other high performance engine of its era. If you maintain them properly, they are actually pretty reliable cars with pretty reasonable maintenance costs (very similar to own a M3 for instance) and way cheaper ownership costs than previous generations. But well, what do I know!

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Chris do it. You know the routine, these cars are agile, fast, fun and dependable classics if you (1) buy one that is in good mechanical shape with all the proper service and maintenance performed, and (2) you take care of the car going forward with performing the proper service and maintenance. If the previous owner skipped or you skimp on service and maintenence procedures, then you will have the prettiest paperweight that you can admire in your garage. Good news is that unlike many classic high performance cars, the 996 has a HUGE parts aftermarket that is only getting BIGGER. These parts also tie into the 997.1, 986 and 987 creating broad incentive to invent and sell solutions to a giant customer base. What this means is that there isn't any issue that hasn't been identified over the past 22 years that doesn't have a fix or preventative measure. The M96 powered cars are not only a bargain in price, but once everybody has figured out that they can bullet proof their car with readily available and cost effective solutions, these cars will be exponentially "hotter" than their peak earlier this year.

I just leave mine parked and occasionally sit in it and and make Vroom VROOOOM noises. Do people actually drive these? Is this done?

You might be interested in this thread we had a couple of days ago: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ly-driver.html 2k per year is nothing, many of the active members on this board use their cars regular or take long trips and may hit 2k just in one of those. ​​​​I acquired mine back in January as my DD and have put 12K trouble free miles on it so far, through just about every weather condition you can imagine from ice storms, snow, sub-zero temps to tropical storms, 110+ weather, standing water/flooded roads, etc. They are great cars, but just like any high performance machinery you need to care for and properly maintain it.

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Lol, love this. I'm afraid that too much Vroom could cause the window regulators to fail.

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They hate to be driven under 4000 rpm. Prefer 4000 to 6500. Rumor has it that they also enjoy hard braking, high speed turns with hard acceleration following, as well as heel toe shifting to keep the revs up and matched. However, they do not like old oil and sitting in the garage without any attentions for weeks on end. But just rumors.

Don’t buy it lmk where and I’ll have a few choice words for the fella why are you selling the most usable year round enjoyment of Porsche driving car how dare you

I bought my 2003 C4S last November.from a dealer. The odometer read 40xxx when I took possession. Since then I have put about 6000 miles on her including several trips of 1-2 thousand miles. Driven with spirit, fast, acceleration. I observe 6500 RPM max. Completely trouble free. Oil running 0-40 Mobil, changed religiously at 6 months or 3000 miles. When I took possession I promptly drove her to the local dealer where I left about $17000 for all the usual suspects, IMS, RMS, clutch (really needed), flywheel, AOS, plugs, injectors, coils, all fluids, etc....stuff "as long as we're in there" stuff. When the IMSB came out it looked perfect but didn't feel as smooth in rotation as I think it should. This is just me. When I took possession everything worked perfectly. There was a minor weep from the RMS as the car hadn't been driven much in a couple of years and they tell me that is normal. I may have been able to run her as is for years. But this is just me, and I did want peak performance as stock can be. Conservative engineer. My advice would be of course, buy the car. You'll love it just as I do. It is a luxury car, with benefits, as they say.

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So you're telling me instead of Vroom VROOOM I should be making reeeEEEEEEEE squeeeel reeEEEEEEE noises?

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Hah! Any noise is a good noise!

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This branch brings up a good point.I don't understand all the attention paid to custom (read that "loud") exhaust systems on our cars. My car sounds beautiful when I wind her up. I've never heard her sounds from the outside but to me it sounds great in the cabin. So help me understand about after market exhaust systems, and their attraction to so many. Tracking excepted....I get that

B3 I think you over thought my comment I’m for him buying it

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Now I need to clean the coffee off my monitor. Huge aftermarket support huh� how�s that oil cooler coming ? The M96 aftermarket is LAME with a handful of vendors who are far more happy to tell you what to buy instead of showing you why to buy it. Go try that **** in the world of actual performance cars WITH real HUGE aftermarket support and see how it flies. Oh yeah, and if you happen to question the wisdom of the do this vendor base you�re welcomed by a bunch of their no mind proponents crying about the audacity of it� To the OP - the cars are really good and the shape of a 4S is timeless. I have no interest in either a 911 to drive everyday or one with AWD but if that�s what you�re after, it�s a car. Buy the best one you can and maintain it like you love it, if bad **** happens, it�s a car and sometimes that�s the way it goes� same with any other car.

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Hah! About as well as your LS swap.

Chris, Maintenance history is key, as others have said. Get a PPI and have the bores scoped from the sump. Best case, everything is good, and then buy the car. Worse case, the current owner gets a free oil change and you saved yourself ~$20k in repairs after purchase. I did a similar thing with a Cayman before I bought my 996. Luckily for me it had lots of shiny parts in the oil so there was no need to scope the cylinders. Owner got a free oil change and I passed on the car. Found my 996 with a recent complete engine rebuild, IMS Solution already installed. I bought it then a month later starting getting puddles of tranny fluid under the car. $7k later the tranny was redone, did a bunch of "while you are in there" improvements (UAOS, new coolant tank, new CPS, new tranny mount, new motor mounts; etc) and now the car is rock solid. BTW, I sent a couple of PMs your way, but didn't see them go through. No idea what the issue is.

The 4S hips! Do you need any other reason? Only 2000 miles a year though? That makes me sad. When you were a kid, you already spent so much time LOOKING at these cars; it's time to finally start DRIVING them.

If you plan to do the wrenching yourself, then do it. But I�m very much one of those �while I�m in there� kind of owners that does all my own maintenance. I bought my �03 4S in �15 with the intention to DD the car. It already had 106K miles by the time I drove it home from MN to north central Indiana (cold windy winters). 45 miles one way on the highway to work daily. Routine recommended fluid changes and maintenance with quality products. Incredibly dependable! Retired from DD duty in �19 with 213K miles. I definitely enjoy driving the car more since retiring it from the DD status. Only time it left me stranded was when the clutch pressure plate spring failed at 218K. Clutch had at least 130K on it though. The car is now living its �best life� w/ 234K miles on NW North Carolina roads away from the Indiana cold. Engine has never been opened up, uses/leaks NO oil between changes (5K), no smoke on startup, no audible bore-scoring concerns, original trans and diff. Still has the original IMS (I know, sacrilegious).

Buying a Porsche 911 is an emotional decision, if you are really on the fence, I say don't buy one....No one really "needs" a 911 ....(except me ) It's like being on the fence about getting married, if you need someone to talk you into it, then don't do it !! ...50% of marriages end in Divorce,... 100% of cars will eventually wear out if used, they will have things go wrong and need repairs and cost you money.... If you are not 100% committed then you will end up being dissatisfied and selling or worse become one of the ones bitching about things while still owning it.....or even go crazy and put an LS or K24 in it...lol

They are sweet cars. Bought my 03 4s 62,000 miles, 1 owner, manual coupe in June this year in Anchorage, AK. Dad and I road tripped it back to CO. 4,000 miles and not a single hiccup, on the way down. I did have the IMS solution done with a new AOS, RMS, main drive belt, and clutch later in the summer. Now shopping for a set of narrower wheel and winter tires so I can drive it year round and in the snow. It�s my daily. When I get in and start it in the morning, I take off right away. I don�t let it sit there and idle. Puts a big smile on my face everyday on my commute. 9k miles since I bought it, with a couple PCA DE�s and a couple autocross events and no issues. Love it. Buy it. Drive it like Porsche intended.

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Good luck finding the required narrower rear winter rims, took me a while to score a set.

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Sounds like you're getting a hard-on like the middle schooler that just got a glimpse of the teacher's breasts for the first time. Just make sure you wear protection and don't pick the one that's been rode hard and put up wet.

I'm about to start my 2nd winter with mine (1st snow today so couldn't resist taking the pics below) and I drove it close to 7k miles in one year. I echo the general sentiment of keeping up with maintenance and there's no reason why you wouldn't make your dream car your daily car. Is that what they call "Living the dream"?

Am I the only one that bought mine... without PPI or even have seen the car? A lot of photos, service records, a helpful and honest (as far as I could ensure over the phone )... and in 2 days I closed the deal and the car was shipped cross country from CA to FL. And it turned out to be in incredible good shape. Of course, don't get me wrong and is always better to do your PPI... but also, many times (and mostly here in RL) we over think it a lot. These are cars like any other car. They are used cars, and you have to know that in advance. Machines that can fail. If you have some experience looking out for used cars, you can detect a good unit with high chances of success, without having to "bring the engine down"...

No you aren't. I knew very little about 996 dos and don'ts when I bought mine. I had yet to find RL. I bought mine from a Porsche dealer so I figured if they screwed me I'd make their life miserable until they made me whole. Luckily I found a good low mileage 4s (21,600 miles) and the salesman let me drive it especially hard, 2x.

You want a reason? How about you are going to be dead a long time? Now, every car has its foibles, particularly high-performance cars and Range Rovers. Just make sure you get the best condition car you can find and pay for a complete PPI. Then just drive the damn thing.

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Parris, no question, there are alot of good 996s out there. Glad you got one and glad you contribute to RL. Imho unless the average 996 buyer is made of money, they would be well served to prove that the 996 is in good working order before they buy it. Same can be said for any 20+ year old car. Metal and plastic parts just wear out over time. Depending on service history and procedures some faster than others.

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Me too (kids, don't try this at home). A power outage ruined my PPI plans, but I did drive two states away to at least look at it. This site gave me enough info to know what I was looking/listening for on cold start (felt the tail pipe), and because an early build cab/tip seemed to come around once every six months, and the price was right, and they had 50 photos of their recent rebuild, I took the gamble. Drove it straight to the Porsche Specialist in my state for my post-purchase inspection, and the scope was clean and all tolerances checked out. $1,500 in basics nuisance corrections and fluid changes and it's been a dream machine. I spent more on the paint correction and ceramic coating. (Doesn't count the pending A/C leak repair)

I have a guards red C4S with 78k on it. I was going to hold until the spring and put on BAT. Only thing that needs a fixing is passenger seat switch. Won�t go forward. I have a list of what I�ve done. If interested, let me know. Reason for sale, want convertible, auto wife will drive too.

Well, you should not gamble more than you are prepared to lose.

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^^^Best damn statement I ever heard on RL.

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Thank my wife. She lives by it.

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That is exactly what Im trying to say. Of course is always better to do a PPI, and that is a good recommendation to do. I dont want to make this a post about the convinience of a PPI. But my point is, that here in RL, it looks like the PPI is the "word of god" and we tend to scare people (like the OP), with the "thousands" of problems that the 996 have that seems that they are going to auto explode if you don't change until the last nut and bolt when you buy them... changing the oil lines?... the cooling lines?... really?.. But the reality is... that they are pretty reliable cars. Between 996/986/997/987 there are more M96/M97 engines produced than all the 911 generations before combined (do the math)... Of course their failures are more know and popular... because they were a lot of them! However, the risk of buying them... is similar to the risk of buying almost any used high performance car. Do we think that is less risky or can turn less expensive to buy a used M car? or an AMG? or a RS?... or for that matter, any car that was expensive in time of purchase, will be expensive to own nowadays if it was not well cared during previous ownership.

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Absolutely agree. They are very durable and dependable. No need to be scared off. But yeah, when someone asks a question on RL, a good number of us answer. Problem is that you always get the good and bad thru a fire hose. But that's the nature i guess of a public forum. I personally plan on enjoying mine for another 20-30 years, which means another 2 or 3 refreshes along the way. Then my son can have it when I can't get in and out of it anymore. It really is a great car.

Would people who don't do or recommend a $500 PPI on a $35,000-$50,000 potential Porsche purchase also not pay a grand or 2 for a home inspection on a $300,000 home using the same logic. Most houses are fine, don't have termites, structural damage, etc. Are realtors "fear mongers" for suggesting someone get an inspection? Everyone has their own risk tolerance, but this forum is littered with stories of purchasers who quickly realize they bought a "headache".

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^^^ Great quote to live life by !!! The real problem is this is a "Technical Forum" that gets asked too many "General Questions" ......lol "Should I buy a 996 ? " is not a Technical Question........ That question would be better answered by a Phycologist or Financial Advisor, or even a Marriage Counselor...lol

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My favorite coffee shop has a hand painted sign "Drink more coffee. You can sleep while you're dead."

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These cars are actually reliable and good daily drivers IF THEY ARE MAINTAINED PROPERLY. This is really the case for most Porsches even the older ones. Does the current owner have the maintenance records of the car? If not it�s not necessarily a no go but you absolutely need a PPI either way. But they can be driven daily and hard if you want to deal with the maintenance. 2-3k per year is been the norm for my 02 Targa over the 5.5 years I�ve had it.

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No I bought mine without one and the car needed an immediate 2k repair within a week. So that�s why I always tell people to get one.

I put roughly 12k miles on my '00 Carrera 2 in three years. During that time, it brought me more joy than any other car I owned before -- I also own a '72 Targa that is more fun to drive on the right road in the right conditions, but being able to drive the 996 in any weather, during winter, with kids, alone, on a snowboarding trip, with surfboards in the car, more than compensated for that. It was way better to drive than I expected. But, it also brought me more hardship than any other car. I think I've seen it leave on a trailer towards my indy four or five times. When I bought it, the IMS was replaced but either the replacement (not LN) was faulty, or the installation was not done right, because it failed after 1.5 years and the engine had to be rebuilt. After that, somehow I never really trusted it again which wasn't helped by intermittent misfire problems. In contrast, the '72 is rock solid. Long story short, I swapped it for a 996 Turbo two months ago because I had enough of the M96 engine. I got roughly what I paid for it three years ago, so spent around 20k in repairs on those 12k miles... For a C4S, I would definitely borescope it because you don't want a car with borescoring. And I would replace the IMS by something from LN, and have the work done by a reputable installer.

Here is a perspective to think about from a 20 year owner of a 996.2. Not only do I recomend to folks looking to buy a 996 to get an oil test, drop the sump and see what's in there, scope the bores and get a ppi, but I also put my money were my mouth is. Begining of this year I was planning my second 10 year engine part refresh, so I broke it down into three phases. Phase 1: begin oil testing program in 2021 to see what it said. All looked good. Move to Phase 2. Phase 2: get car into indy to drop the sump to see what's in there, go thru the oil filter with a fine tooth comb, scope the bores to see what I have, and give the car a PPI look over. All looked good and ok to go thru suspension, brake and exhaust system to make sure everything was in proper working order and set to the proper specs. All good, so ok to move to the next step which was to spend money on Phase 3 the following month. Phase 3: next visit to indy to drop the engine/trans and replace the LN IMS Retro, RMS, check clutch and flywheel, replace fuel injectors, coils, plugs, oil coiler, took off motorsports aos and added UAOS track version. Went thru cooling system with fine tooth comb, rebuilt Guard LSD, replaced motor mounts and many other things. Here is the point, a PPI, sump drop, and bore scope is not just for the guy looking to quantify if he should buy a 996, it's also for current owners who want to know what they got and how to proceed. I do all this because I want to make sure that my car is bullet proof and doesn't break down on the street or track. With the exception of two failed oem aos' on the track of which I learned my lesson to never use again, my 996 has never broken down.

I bought a 2001 C4cab new Had it 5 years put 60k miles on it. Drove it all winter. regretted selling it Did oil changes every 5k. Never any problem never saw a mechanic or dealer except me. 5 kids... THey are grown up and still talk about the rides in the car with their mother to school. I bought 2003 c4 cab with 10k miles on it and a salvage title. Had an LNS solution put in right away after an inspection. put 20k miles on it in 3 years. Sold it and bought a turbo cab. As much as I enjoy the turbo S cab tiptronic. Sold it missed rowing the gears! So I bought another turbo cab 5 speed, I really miss the c4 cab with sports exhaust. I recently contacted the buyer and he said it was totaled in a slow-moving head-on. He is having it rebuilt and keeping it. THAT is true car love!!

BUY A 996.2 C4S! There, done.

Id say make the initial investment and get a 996TT. AWD, better motor design with much more power, and is more fun to drive.

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this is my mantra....!!! I say buy the darn thing. I was wishy washy 2 years ago and bit the bullet on my 996 C4S project. Zero regrets.

Only buy a 911 if you have deep pockets and a very competent mechanic who can fix it (especially the transmission).

I bought a manual 2003 C4S with 25K miles on it almost two years ago. It had the IMS done a number of years ago, but only about 7K miles on it since done. Great maintenance records and in spectacular condition. I've put about 5,500 miles on it over the past two years and have had only moderate maintenance costs incurred. I've driven it year round and don't hesitate to drive it in the rain. Our winters, in the Coastal SE USA, rarely have the frozen stuff, so I can't speak to how it would handle that. I don't drive it easy, I drive it like a Porsche should be driven it and I enjoy it. I don't track it, and don't think I will, but it's not off the table. The thing I love about the C4S from this era is that it's fast but not quite scary fast. You can drive it hard around town and and enjoy it without thinking you're taking your license or life in your hands. I've since thought about buying up to a newer, more powerful model, but decided against it as my wife and I both got into other Porsche models as our daily drivers. I broke the C4S out just today for the drive to work and was reminded how much I like it and how I don't want anything more right now. Just do it!!!!

I don't disagree about the benefit of getting a PPI, but can get challenging buying on BaT from across the country! Won the auction and flew to DFW and drove it straight back east to NJ. 1,700 miles after an oil change and minor maintenance at the seller's Porsche dealer. For me, I gambled because for it's 42k miles, I had access to most of the service records. LN IMS retro, AOS, plugs, coils, all fluids flushed, RMS, etc... no hiccups on the ride home. Sold my '99 986 so the wife let me make the jump. Just mounted 4 Michelin AS pilots instead of investing in winters, as pretty mild in NJ last few years; so did not need to find narrower wheels. Really loved driving the 986, excellent handling 2 seater that i did HPDE and was my DD (retired old guy) but the 911 is an itch I needed to scratch while I can still get down that low to get in! You won't regret the C4S!

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Agreed, service records are critical. If the car has complete records and you can see what has been done and when, PPI and Borescope aren't as glaringly important. As an example, if the car has 49k miles and 2 oil changes over 20s, I would want it scoped. If the car has 59k miles over 20 years and 80 oil changes like mine does, then there is most likely very little risk if any of scoring. Problem is alot of the cars are on their 5th owner without any service records. Buyer beware.

@Jjcrawdad where in NJ are you?

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I bought mine in late 2017 with 50K on it. I put 12K per year until COVID. Since then I've put a lot less per year on it. Currently I have 85K on it and I'm awaiting it's return from Flat6Innovations. I decided to rebuild to a 4.0L while I'm working from home and not driving as much. I plan to start putting TONs more miles on it VERY soon.

Enough said!

What a beauty! Love that color!!

Taken yesterday. Not bad for a 20 year old "classic"!