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YOUR RESEARCHBoost Brothers Garage - Toasted a M9X engine! Smooth rebuild?
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motormeister has been out of business
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Problem is Motormeister has been out of business for a long time, for stuff like this lol.
Boost Brothers Garage - Toasted a M9X engine! Smooth rebuild?
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Clean i started reassembly referencing my class notes
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Once I had it disassembled & cleaned I started reassembly referencing my class notes.
Boost Brothers Garage - Toasted a M9X engine! Smooth rebuild?
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You learn so much about how oil is developed, tested, rated, and approved by the manufacturers.
Boost Brothers Garage - Toasted a M9X engine! Smooth rebuild?
Use guidance
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Thank goodness that Mike used the guidance from my video to check his work.
Boost Brothers Garage - Toasted a M9X engine! Smooth rebuild?
Use hooked end
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Then I took an old bicycle spoke and used the hooked end to hook the circlip (in the engine) where the the small relief is in the piston wrist pin boss.
Boost Brothers Garage - Toasted a M9X engine! Smooth rebuild?
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I've been following these guys on YouTube for a long time and enjoy Mike's honesty and camaraderie with his brother during the various builds. In the last couple of years, they've been toying with a Cayman M97 engine which they burned up doing donuts in a parking lot. Found an M96 engine on eBay and thought they'd tackle a full M96 rebuild and then things start to spiral out of control. Here are the links to save you some time having to search through all their episodes:
Porsche Cayman Engine Disassembly - Part 1
You Tube
Porsche Cayman Engine Disassembly - Part 2
You Tube
Porsche Cayman Engine Disassembly - Part 3
You Tube
Porsche Cayman Engine Disassembly - Part 4
You Tube
Porsche Cayman Engine Disassembly - Part 5
You Tube
Cayman Engine Build: Where it all begins!
You Tube
What happened to our Cayman? (2006 987 Cayman S project)
You Tube
Turbo 3.8L Cayman Engine Build (Porsche M96) - Part 1
You Tube
Turbo 3.8L Cayman Engine Build (Porsche M96) - Part 2
You Tube
Turbo 3.8L Cayman Engine Build (Porsche M96) - Part 3
You Tube
Turbo 3.8L Cayman Engine Build (Porsche M96) - Part 4
You Tube
Turbo 3.8L Cayman Engine Build (Porsche M96) - Part 5
You Tube
Thanks for posting! It has certainly been a roller coaster thus far, but I�m feeling much better about it these days. Happy to answer any questions or laugh at myself along with the rest of you guys haha
Part 4 (assembly) - ooops. I could see right away the crank was going in the wrong way. The pin extending off the carrier goes to the flywheel end.
By the way, I only know this because of the DVD set on assembling the M9x engine.
I see the 944 in the background of one video with the 5-cylinder Audi engine in it. Alan's car? How is that coming along? Saw it at 944Fest last year. Really clean installation.
Yeah, the Knowledge Gruppe DVD set was a lifesaver for sure.
The 07K swap is going great! My NA swap is done and has been track tested and we are working on the turbo swap for the red car now. I have playlists for both on the channel as well. They have been a blast!
Hinton's experience and the route he was taking is the main reason I did the video series on M9X engine assembly. HE and others like him are who this video was made for. It isn't for entertainment, its an educational series.
People can have a ton of experience with other engines, and all that does is complicate their experience with this engine. They don't know that until they start, and then they think "Its just another motor".
Then the engine hands them their *** on a silver platter. As more and more people DIY these I saw that it wasn't really a "DIY" effort, it was a "BIY" effort.
They "Botch it themselves".
The video series eliminates that, as long as they follow it step by step, and do not deviate from the assembly order that I walk them through.
100% agree. I went to school for automotive technology, went through a NASCAR engine building course etc. I figured with the factory service manual I could fumble my way through it successfully. I was wrong.
I've watched all of the first five stages (disc 1). I'll probably watch them all at least two or three times. Still waiting on parts to get to stage 1, but I will be able to complete it with confidence. Also practiced the piston pin insertion trick with the special tool yesterday. Got the first one, on the first try (even without grinding off the little tab). Will practice many more times (outside the engine) before I have to go for real. We'll see how good I get before it comes to the real test.
Those that complain about the cost, should try doing this without the videos. After making all the mistakes; then come back and try to put a price on the knowledge gained through these videos. I'll bet Hilton might have wanted this sooner. Fortunately, I got mine before I got started making big mistakes.
I used the tool to insert some clips today as well, game changer!
I didn�t even know the video series from JR/TKG was a thing until two weeks ago. It would have saved me a lot of frustration for sure. Luckily I didn�t make any mistakes that cost me any money.
As for the cost of the video series, it�s a drop in the bucket compared to making a small mistake and grenading an engine the first time you start it.
It's refreshing to see a "Professional" with enough humility to admit he wasn't up to a particular task, and give credit where it's due (unfortunately, some of the "experts" here will accuse JR of blowing his own horn for helping you out). I think in a lot of cases the "professional mechanics" choose to blame the Porsche Engineers (We know there's plenty of blame to go around, but they had bosses and bean counters to answer to) instead of owning up to their own lack of knowledge/understanding. You Mr. Hinton are a gentleman...
Good Luck with the build
@hinton
released his assembly video during my M9X Engine Rebuild School hands- on class a couple weeks ago.
At lunch we threw it on the screen in the presentation room, and the attendees got their good laugh, all at his sacrifice..
They told me that I should help him, so I did. I agreed with them, it was painful to watch.. BUT then I realized that I made all these same mistakes when I was learning about these engines too (well, not all of them, but a lot).
Some of the attendees are here on the forum, so maybe they'll chime in.
I didn't have any resource material.. No book, no torque specs, no one to call, and no one to watch on YouTube. I had no lifeline, which was both very rewarding afterward, and today, but brutally painful back then. It took me 3 days to make tools and figure out how to install one piston on bank 2, today I have done that blindfolded in a class.. There's nothing harder than learning things first hand, and unfortunately that's the only way I can learn.
Hinton is a good sport, that's for sure.
Appreciate the kind words guys! I do my best to be honest and show all of the struggles on my videos. I don�t mind people getting a good laugh off my misfortunes and I certainly don�t want to make costly mistakes over being too proud. Jake has been a huge help and I have a much better chance at success because of him.
So, for those people out there who are considering doing this, my videos may be entertaining but the �Focus on M9X Engine Assembly� will give you the technical knowledge to get it done right.
Having taken the hands-on M96 rebuild class, watching this was like watching a slow motion train wreck. I'm glad they found Jake before they really messed something up that cost them even more money.
I've never watch these guys before. If I had been watching, I would have been putting the link to the Knowledge Gruppe's web site in the comment section of every video until they got the message.
One of the things Jake said in the class is that assembling the M96/97 is different than any other engine and just because you've assembled other engines, doesn't mean you will be able to put together an M96/97 correctly.
Bored at work last night and binged the entire Cayman saga. They are hilarious in a good way. Hats off to the guys for doing this and filming it. And kudos to the pros helping when they really don’t have to. Can’t wait to see how it turns out.
Well, one thing that I love about your videos is that you're keeping it real and showing the audience that mistakes happen. I couldn't help but feel bad for you when you were trying to install the circlips without the factory tool. I saw that one coming. Many people here on Rennlist have done the same. I'll admit, I would have done it wrong too thinking I could save the money and install them with a pair of needle nose pliers or something. Some corners can not be cut. Good to know you reached out to Jake Raby. I'm looking forward to your next videos on the subject. I'll post the links here once they go public on YouTube.
The crazy thing is we've seen dealerships make the same engine assembly mistakes as @hinton has in these videos.
The same things fight people over and over again. Since we get the questions and complications all the time, I made sure to cover these in the video series.
I call lots of them "silver bullets".
A shop called yesterday after they had just completed cam timing on an engine, following the factory manual. They made the same critical mistake that people have been making for 20 years, ands bank 2 of the engine would not fire. I just told them to buy the streaming episode of the video series that covers 5 chain cam timing. They called back this morning stating that they were blown away by the detail, and the video saved them.
That's what its all about...
Keep in mind, they've "been working on Porsche engines for 40 years". Likely story.
Just watched all 5 episodes. Found them fascinating. You really start to feel the guy�s frustration when the mistakes are made. Kudos to them for including all the faux pas in the vids. There�s no way in hell I could build an M96. Way over my head. Looking forward to next episodes.
Oh man, I feel their pain. Glad to hear someone got in touch with Jake. I can really appreciate the honesty in showing nearly every bit of the process. Rebuilding one of these motors is frustrating without the proper knowledge and watching these guys make those mistakes reminds me of just how valuable of a resource this forum is to those of us working on our motors. I'm from a world where we share our knowledge more freely (it still costs though) but I was quite surprised how little information on performance engine building (specifically) on the M96/97 is available (or even achievable.) I get it. So many will just apply standard engine building techniques to an M96 motor and call it good. Others have spent much of their own time and money to develop corrective solutions and then what extra power they can extract that they are hesitant to give away their hard earned knowledge. Owning one of these cars has not been without its own frustrations but I have been utterly amazed with the amount of real solutions to problems that exist can be found here(even though we may have to sort through a fair bit of chaff.) We've also been lucky to have some great professionals become part of the discussion and provide us with some great guidance at the same time. These videos show how that help can turn around a stalled project.
Thanks for this posting NuttyProfessor. And thanks hinton for sharing your own experience going forward.
Thank you for the nice comment. Like a lot of people, I'm not planning on rebuilding my engine, but I learn so much from guys like Mike Hinton. I enjoy watching these videos on YouTube in order to get a better understanding how these engines are assembled and work. I've saved so much money doing simple DiY type jobs that would have costs 4 or 5 times as much going to the dealership. That's one reason I like YouTube so much.
I took the UOA online class last year and I must say that it should be a prerequisite for working on these engines. Learning about the field of Tribology from Lake Speed, Jr. was so fascinating. I didn't realize how much goes into the different types of oils for the various applications. You learn so much about how oil is developed, tested, rated, and approved by the manufacturers.
After taking Jake's 1st M96 engine assembly class a decade ago I came home & drop my engine out. Once I had it disassembled & cleaned I started reassembly referencing my class notes. Referencing the factory service manuals was not very helpful most of the time.
It appears that many of the Porsche shop manuals have poor German to English translations. That's why I like to watch step-by-step tutorials on YouTube.
My experience with the FSM is it just isn�t geared towards the DIY or enthusiast guys. It lacks step by step assembly instructions and just focuses on component assemblies and swapping out stock parts (duh). Vague and assuming the reader is a Porsche master tech makes for a dangerous combo for guys like us trying to work on our own cars.
Exactly !!!! You can tell by reading the manual, that the German Engineer who is writing the instructions are trying to be overly detailed in the procedures, but the English Translator, who is probably proficient in Translation, but is below average on mechanical aptitude, it makes it hard to read and even down right confusing unless you already know how to do the procedure and are just searching for a particular answer.
For example: on that 5 chain timing on the Bank 2, they don't make it clear when saying to rotate 180 degrees, if they are talking about rotating the engine on the stand, or rotating the crank in the engine !!!
It's clear that the video has assisted you well.. You even added witness marks :-)
Glad to see the progress. I've had 5 people message me saying they finished their engines with my video, but yours is going to be the most impressive, since you had a basket case of the wrong parts, and incompatible stuff to work with.. You also got the engine in pieces, and didn't take it apart yourself. That amplifies the challenges by 500%
Can't wait till yours is finished!
Thanks Jake! The video and your assistance in general has been of huge value. Now the fun part comes, piston installation and having nightmares about the circlips being fully seated!
Yep, this separates the men, from the boys. If you follow my lead, and check your work, you will not experience a complication!
Focus is the key. Have your head on straight before you get started, and stay on task. Have enough time to dedicate 4 hours to this task for cylinders 4,5 &6. Stopping mid- stream is the worst thing you can do.
It's all about preparation, mindset, and focus.
Turn off facebook, forums, and your freaking phone. FOCUS!
I would not video the process, as that will screw you up mentally, too. Shoot a video before and after, but you don't need a camera rolling while doing "the nasty" as we call it.
Ouch! Just when you think things are finally starting to move in the right direction and now this. Looks like the cheaper cylinder choice is going to make this job more expensive.
Seems like I remember from the earlier videos that you chose to work with Vision on the cylinder sleeving of this engine, correct? What composition are these sleeves? If I were to make an uneducated guess, I would say iron which I believe has been mentioned here on RL to be problematic in this application.
Enough of my ramblings. What is your next step? Personally, I wouldn't attempt the dremel idea because that would introduce metal contamination that will eventually eat your engine from the inside out once started.
I'm afraid it looks like you're going to have to take it back apart and send the block off for corrective work. Good luck!!
Ouch.
Hope there's a simple solution. Can you pull the bank #2 case half off and machine away the interference? I wouldn't want to try that with it installed in-place.
My block halves are expected today. I have been planning to practice several times with the tools before final assembly, to be sure I know what I am doing, before I get in too deep. Sort of a dry run, just the block half, a piston with no rings and the various tools. Once I have confidence in my abilities, the fit, and the tools, I'll go for real.
Best of luck at your end.
The sleeves are DI. The use of them is a much larger discussion but they have been used in aluminum blocks with aluminum pistons for a LONG time.
I can either take it back apart and machine away the interference from the sleeves or modify the tools. I need to further inspect the other two cylinders to see if they are an issue as well. I was too frustrated last night.
Thanks, and good luck to you too!
You're right I�m the money with the potential solution, although if the other two sleeves are correct it might make sense to just modify the tools.
Don't even think about grinding in the case in situ, the shavings will fall directly on the crankshaft, no way to avoid that.
Just remove the bank 2 case half and do what you must, It's not that much of a hickup, just seems like it..
Is it bad to say how much I enjoyed the video? You're videos are so brutally honest about what it really take when doing this kind of work and how sometimes it just bites you in the a$$. I feel your pain though, we have all been there at one time or another. But don't give up...pull the cases apart, have a beer and take a step back; then do something else and come back and fix it when your mind is "in it." I'm on the side that says don't do it with the clam-shells together, on errant cherdingy from any machine work will cost you a lot more than time.
Keep up with the good work on the videos. Since seeing these in the first postings above I have been enjoying your YouTube channel--lots of fun
Appreciate it! I�m much more cool headed now. I�ll be at the shop tonight so I can take another look and decide how to move forward. Regardless, I definitely won�t clearance the sleeves with the case half in place.
Wow! Way to keep it real
As much as you may never want to, I hope you get a chance to build another one of these so you get to put your experience to good use.
Thanks! I�ll get through it, just thought it was important to show what can go wrong. Had I not scoped it to confirm the circlip was fully seated I would have sworn it was done correctly. Obviously that wouldn�t have ended well!
Not sure it will help, but I had to modify the clip insertion portion of the tool. It was a little too big to get in and seat properly on the piston. Check post #350 here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...thread-24.html
Ouch. Another road block, but thankfully you took Jake Raby's advice about checking if the circlip was seated correctly with a borescope. I've taken Jake's online class and have his Focus On: M9X Engine Assembly just like you. I love learning about these engines even though I may never personally rebuild one.
Ok, here are my thoughts on where you're at if you don't mind...
Based on what Jake instructs in his video series, you don't have the guide tool seated correctly in the counterbore of the piston. (you seem to agree) What this does is leave a gap between the counterbore and land of the piston. That gap is large enough to cause the circlip to jump out of the piston or as Jake states, sometimes the circlip will fall on the land or counterbore, not where it's supposed to be - that is, the circlip groove of the piston. The worst case situation is when the circlip launches somewhere inside the engine. In any of these cases, you have to go in and retrieve the circlip. Yikes! This is what nightmares are made of! Jake Raby speaks about the horrors of this problem repeatedly in Volume 2 (Stages 6-10) of the series, but things get really crazy serious when installing Bank 2 pistons and their respected wrist pin and circlips as you have experienced.
Another thing that Jake mentions that might help you is that he encourages you to practice the method on the bench before carrying it out on the engine. Make sure the connecting rods are perfectly aligned with their pistons using the alignment dowel. Use the borescope to make sure the guide tool is seated in the counterbore, before inserting the driver tool. And again, always check your work. No telling how many people thought they seated the circlip in the circlip groove, but later found out it was not even in the piston, and then experience catastrophic engine failure because of the loose wrist pin hitting the cylinder walls.
Anyway, keep marching on Mike. I'm a big fan! And hats off to Raby for making the series. As you said, under different circumstances, you could have created a big problem.
This is the major mistake I made, I completely forgot to do this. I should have fired the video up for a refresher before attempting. Stupid mistake, but a lesson learned. Hopefully adhering to this step will prevent further issues.
I saw this last night and it gave me knots in my stomach...what a PITA!
I've been thinking about this problem and tried it on my motor. It may work, may not but it might be worth the try. When the circlip is in the outer ring there is not a high amount of tension on it. and it can be pulled out fairly easy. First I turned the motor so the bank 2 pistons were facing down. Then I took an old bicycle spoke and used the hooked end to hook the circlip (in the engine) where the the small relief is in the piston wrist pin boss.
Then I used a pickup magnet to grab the circlip...et voila
Like I said it may work it may not, but its worth a try--way better than just going back to splitting the cases.
Good luck
My god, what a PITA. I have tons of respect for you for sticking with it and seeing it through to completion. I�d have launched that block off a short pier a long time ago, but then again I have zero patience. Watching your vids makes spending the $ to have FSI do the build for you look like the �cheaper� option more and more.
This process is what defines the assembly of an M9X engine. Success is determined by this process, more than anything else the builder can experience with this engine.
this is one reason why I laugh when people say �this is just another engine, anyone can build it- its not rocket science�.
Offline I told Mike to go back to my video and do each step as I do it, verbatim. He hasn�t watched the video recently, and I think a refresher step by step will make a difference.
This is not easy, and not impossible. Mike has a few variables going on that are not normal, and those are adding complexities to this process.
Thank goodness that Mike used the guidance from my video to check his work. Had this not been done he would have had an instant, and cataclysmic failure within a few minutes of the first start.
While most people may not think so, when you hit this issue the first thing I recommend is pulling the case half back off to remedy the issue. This may seem like the wrong thing to do, because it takes time. What you learn after about 15 years of doing this work, is the decision made at this point can be critical. If you try to sneak the clip back out of the tool counterbore, you have a huge risk that this clip will fly out under force, and bounce around, ending up under the crank carrier, on bank 1, or somewhere else. If this happens, you get to start all over again, with total disassembly, just to fetch the clip. Been there, done that, and I urge anyone not to risk it.
You can improvise a means of working around this in some cases, but you�ll spend more timing doing this, than just removing the bank 2 block half. Experience is a great part of good judgment, and if I screw up a clip, I�m pulling the 4-6 case half back off, immediately. That�s my punishment. Luckily I haven�t botched a clip in about 4 years now. I only use my faultless tool for this process, it�s called �inventor�s pride�, and I execute it.
Jake is right. While there are some oddities to my engine, at this point I believe it was because I missed the step of using the scope to confirm the tool was fully engaged in the piston.
Also, after pulling the case half on and off now a couple times I agree that it�s the fastest and easiest route to get the clip back out. I briefly fiddled with other methods and didn�t have any luck.
I'm not disagreeing, and I think its a wise decision to pull the case apart--its not that much to do at the point you are at. Just to show what I did, I made a short video of how I removed the clip. Granted, this is with the case split and I don't care what happens with the circlip. And I'm pretty sure at this point (the way things have gone for you) if you did this the clip would fly into the engine and cause and immediate explosion
Keep on keepin' on!
You Tube
Most of these circlips are non- ferrous, so a magnet does no good. Seems that both of you got lucky and had ferrous clips.
None of the clips we use are ferrous.
This spoke is a DT Swiss, but I could dig up a Wheelsmith and see how that works. At this moment, I can only guarantee that the DTs will work without an immediate explosion
Hinton, you're not alone, my friend! I had to split the cases
three separate times
, due to an unseated circlip in piston #6! For the
fourth
time, I pleaded for the Kansas City Porsche guru to come make a house call! Evaluating his hollow tube, and mine, it was apparent that the circumference of the hollow tube/tool, I was using ,was too large! Using his tools, we experienced no problems. Took 2 years of my spare time to complete my rebuild (attended Jake's hands-on class in 2018). Thanks for sharing your progress & videos.
Some tools are larger than others. The cheap tool guys that don't build engines using their tools just use generic tubing, which is too large on the OD most every time. This can be the whole problem, or can couple with the piston to create a compound issue. If the ID of the piston tool counterbore is too small, and the OD of the tool is too large, you'll have a big issue.
This is the reason why you don't buy cheap tools from eBay. You will suffer the pain of that purchase, and I guarantee it. That's the way its supposed to be, we call it "stupidity tax".
I�ll post a video update later but the good news is after I filed down the end of my tool it engaged the piston properly and no more misses! The short block is now complete!
Great!
What do you have for deck height? You might rock the pistons all the way from 6-12 O' clock and see what the deck height measures at this point- just to be safe.
Not sure, I�ll have to check. Visually I�m below the top of the sleeves, just a hair.
Any advice on head gasket thickness? I�m looking at the 101mm gasket offered from LN in .032� or .040�.
Great news! it may be helpful to others if you posted a pic of how you modified the tool. I admire your unorthodox approach and willingness to show your progress, warts and all. Keep up the good work!
As long as the piston is still below the deck at full rock at 12 and 6 o'clock, the thinner head gasket will work, but I'd go with the thicker one to try to bump the compression ratio down a tad more since you are planning on putting a turbo on it.
Like Jake said, don't assume anything. 1/2 a point lower than stock isn't low enough :-) The highest compression ratio piston we've ever done for an M96/M97 turbo is 10:1.
FYI, at a 101mm bore size, the extra .008" thickness on the .040" head gasket lowers the compression ratio a quarter point over the .032".
With the piston flat in the bore (not at full rock), exactly how far below the deck is it? I can do the math for you. If you can give me your cylinder head chamber volumes, that will let me give you the exact CR, not an estimate.
It's a normal part of reconditioning them. The block has to be decked. They are never flat. The blocks typically need .003-.005" taken off the deck, but we've seen some that needed up to .020". This is something we check for before we ship any block out and match up the head gasket with the proper pistons, which we have them in stock with several pin heights, depending on how much had to be taken off the deck of the block, to ensure the deck height is correct out of the box.
Same goes with the heads. They also need to be resurfaced with a CBN to ensure the proper surface finish for the MLS head gasket.
I was trippin' when you filled the chamber and the water (or was it Isopropyl) didn't all leak out.I t looked like that spark plug hole was empty. Glad you caught it.
Congragulations
Nice work! I did the same thing with my piston clip insertion tool. It didn't want to sit flush until I took a little off the end.
Nice shirt. I saw Nico, our white 944, just past mid-way through the pack.
A viewer questioned my crank being a 3.6 and was correct, it is a 3.4 unlike I mentioned in this last video. That changes the CR math and gives me 8.95:1 with a .040� HG or 9.2:1 with a .032� gasket. What do you guys think is best for boost and pump gas? Stick with .040� and 9:1?
I like the lower compression on pump gas. You should have lower temps and be able to run more timing advance then. I'm running at ~8.5:1 on on my VW and it does great in the Tucson/Phoenix Summers with an aftermarket IC. I get a bit of heat soak in summer stop and go traffic, but still better than what the car was, even at stock.
I really dont feel bad for the guy. I went into the build blind and now he gets to deal with his self imposed handicap.
also i question his fasener choices. Maybe im wrong but they dont look like factory coated flang head m6 bolts. Zink coated stuff just doesnt have the same corosion resistance. I know its nit-picky but the devil is in the details.
I never asked anyone to feel bad for me. I was put in a situation where I had a blown engine and needed to attempt the rebuild myself in order for it to fit my budget. I�m ok with my �self imposed handicap� as I am learning new skills and bettering myself.
I tried to order Porsche fasteners but they were not available from Pelican. I�m using washers where necessary. This is not a restoration, the car will never see salt. I appreciate your input but you don�t know my situation.
@hinton
has had to learn a lot of things the hard way, after taking over a disaster when it came to component compatibility, and etc. He has done better than most that end up with an engine like the disaster that he started with.
His perseverance, and quest for knowledge is to be commended.
Getting a disassembled engine, in a box with nothing sorted is a huge feat to deal with for a first timer. Its even worse when it comes with the wrong parts, and was a project taken over from another shop.
Oh i know. My comments were not a dig at u. They were in responce to the post before mine. Personally i think u r doing pretty good with the box of crap u were handed. What u r going through is one reason why Jake wont put a motor back together if he did not take it apart.
Hell i just had a friends jeep delivered on a flat bed with 6 large boxes. After going through it i asked him where the other 6 boxes if missing parts r?
Like u its the job i signed up for and agree that no one should "feel bad" because its just par for the course when dealing with unknowns. Like i told my friend ill work on one issue at a time then move to the next, eventually it will get done.
