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THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHMetal and sand found in oil pics
Leading reported evidence
Replace engine air filter the day
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Yeh I actually just replaced the engine air filter the day before I did the oil change.
Leading evidence: 'Replace engine air filter the day' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'ims failure' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check any possible damage' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Had just the bearing changed and changed oil every couple hundred miles.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I know that they replaced the rms but didnt have to replace the EPS bearing because the bearing isnt failing.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
It's had to believe they sell it as a 1 size fits all when it's clear there were several different sized bearings used over the run of 996's...
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Suspected cause · Original poster
how did they suspect ims failure before opening the engine up and finding a working oil fed ims bearing: i think they simply saw my oil filter with some metal shavings and just told me its got to be an early ims failure.
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Suggestion
The oil fill tubes in particular are known to have cracks in the corrugated section and are under negative pressure, especially if your AOS is faulty, and would suck in at the cracks.
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ims failure
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
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Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
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Suspected cause · Original poster
how did they suspect ims failure before opening the engine up and finding a working oil fed ims bearing: i think they simply saw my oil filter with some metal shavings and just told me its got to be an early ims failure.
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57 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Did my own oil change and found metal shavings and even some sand in the oil that poured out onto my pan. My filter had some silver flakes as well. The filter and car were towed to the mechanic yesterday so I'm standing by for word and thought I would share what I have so far. No ims done on this car.
Bought the car at 74k and it now has 83k. Had the last oil change done at 79k.
ps. I ran a kitchen magnet over the metal shavings and didn't notice any magnetic attraction but maybe the magnet wasn't strong enough...
Zach
I would be very concerned about the presence of sand in your motor oil. The timing chain rail pad debris is not so unusual, but the sand! Is it possible that the container you drained the oil into, or perhaps a funnel you may have used, had some sand in it as opposed to your engine having sand in it? Sand will circulate and literally grind away at the internals of your engine. Did the sand in your pictures come directly from the oil filter? If you do indeed have sand in your engine, it is most likely being ingested through the oil fill tube cap, or the oil fill tube itself. Are both intact? The oil fill tubes in particular are known to have cracks in the corrugated section and are under negative pressure, especially if your AOS is faulty, and would suck in at the cracks. Does the oil fill tube cap seal firmly? A cracked tube or faulty cap seal would most likely cause a wonky idle. You may be ingesting sand directly through your air intake, however, that is a much less likely scenario as the sand would literally have to work its way through your air filter, and the damage would be primarily to your combustion chamber components such as pistons, rings, cylinder walls, valves seats and guides. You need to figure out where this sand is coming from!
thanks for the feeback. Oil fill tube cap seals just fine and I did not do the last oil change, it was done at a mechanic in Virginia. I do live about 2 miles from the beach here in Florida and drive to the beach often but never drive on the sand. Closest I have gotten is parking on a sandy bank on the side of a road to go to the beach.
I did not find any sand in the oil filter only coming out when I drained the oil. It is possible that there was sand on the oil pan but I feel like I would have noticed that. I will strain my oil through a cloth today and see if I notice anything else in there. Will uptade with pictures.
Doesn't look like sand to me, the brown ones look like plastic Cam pads, the black ones plastic Chain Rails. I'm guessing you have a 3.4 Mk1 engine, since it has the brown bits?
The early factory pads would wear rather quickly, later updated material pads were better/longer wearing..
If you still think it's sand, you could always send to a Lab for testing...
Here are a few more pics from some more digging in the oil. Shaking oil and pouring it out didn't catch anything in my clothes filter which means that maybe most of the big stuff stayed sitting on the oil pan. Not seeing anything shiny the only shiny stuff were tiny flakes in the oil filter. Not a ton but enough to notice. Wish I had a pic of that to show but the filter is also at the shop now.
This might sound dumb but have you checked to make sure there�s actually an air filter in the box? Looks like you haven�t had it that long. People do dumb stuff. Any chance the previous owner did a �tune up� and forgot to replace the filter?
Update: spoke with the mechanic today and he does not think engine is shot but we caught the IMS failing early. At this point they are going to replace with a tune RS motorsport direct oil feed bearing.
[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:]
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/600x389/3619c84c_04f9_461d_868c_2102f31fe2e3_1_105_c_2660470fd8bce59ae10e3e50233fe7172d81ce47.jpeg
Same here!
I suggest you to check the camshafts deviations before and after the IMS update just in case it would'nt change anything.
IMS is an important preventive maintenance but this kind of debris really point out to chains pads and rails.
I would look at the deviations first, to see where you are and get a proper UOA.
I would get the IMS done as a preventive maintenace if you have no data but be aware that it might not be the source of the debris.
Your mechanic thinks the IMS is made of black and brown plastic? An oil analysis is the only way to get an idea of what�s really floating around in your engine.
Ah I gotcha. He thinks its ims because of metal flakes in oil filter. The plastic shavings were In the sump. They also opened the sump up but only found metal in the filter.
I see. There are some on here much smarter than I that would say there�s the possibility for much more damage to the engine which has already occurred if you�re finding a good amount of flakes. Do some searching on here as it�s been previously discussed in great detail. Changing the IMS at this point might not do anything other than give you an empty wallet and some temporary warm feelies. Godspeed to you.
thank you. Yeh that's something we discussed and because the flakes were minor and the car has been running just fine I feel like I should replace the ims and keep driving. If it breaks someday so be it but selling the car would also be a risk because I may be selling a perfectly good porsche for no reason.
I plan on doing another oil change in 1000 miles or maybe less to re assess if there are any more pieces of metal in the filter.
Understood so long as you realize that you may only be buying yourself time and not necessarily a permanent fix. I don�t mean to be a war monger but it�s always better to go in eyes wide open on an issue like this, imho.
You Tube
This may be good to watch just for your own knowledge before you make your decision , if you find it helpful there are three other videos he made prior to this you may also like.
Metal flake floating around in any engine is NOT a good thing. Changing a suspected part without proof is a crap shoot and as many said above probably not your problem nor your fix. BTW isn't swarf from a ball bearing magnetic except for the seals? Didn't I read above that it did not seem to be magnetic?
Yeh the pieces I noticed in my oil sump were not magnetic or even metallic. But there were some very small metal flakes caught in the oil filter. Didn't notice any metal visible to the eye in the actual oil that I drained out.
I'm cutting to the chase here... Personally, you should plan to have the engine rebuilt. Once you start getting metal of any kind circulating around in the engine, it's doom day for you. I wouldn't wait and just ignore it by no mean. It if was just plastic, then that may point to chain guides, but metal? Nope, I wouldn't wait and hope a few oil changed flushes the system.
As someone with this exact situation, here is my experience. FWIW
Had a failing bearing. Metal in oil. Had just the bearing changed and changed oil every couple hundred miles. After a few thousand miles still had metal getting in the filter.
Had the engine "refreshed" - taken apart and cleaned and put back together.
The reason I bring it up now is a refresh by a good mech when you can reuse everything is 1/2 the price of a rebuild.
Hey I wantd to uptade on what happened in the end. The car is good. Basically they discovered that my car already has a oil fed IMS sytem installed in it and it's working well. The dealer who was selling the car for his boss didn't know it had the IMS replacement when he sold me the car and it wasnt documented in the carfax. They did replace the rear main seal which had some cracking which Ill attach a picture of. That explains why I had some oil loss. The cool thing was that the company which makes this seal, has a new seal and they sent one up to the mechanic for free to replace their old seal. Here is the new seal:
https://www.europeanpartssolution.com/rear-main-seal
And here is the bearing kit if anyone is interested:
https://www.europeanpartssolution.co...ng-upgrade-kit
The shop checked in the engine and the cylinders and didn't find any damage. I think the little brown pieces that I originaly found in my oil came from the broken seal because they're kind of rubbery and look just like the material that the old seal is made with.
Looks like to me the "rear main seal bearing" has wear and might have been contributing to the non-ferrous debris visible in the oil.
I wasn't going to make a post on this thread, however as a PSA, there is no reason to fit one of these to any M96 or M97 engine. Just use a genuine Porsche RMS and you'll be fine. Leaking rear main seals have to do with the engine being incorrectly machined, not the crankshaft sagging in the engine due to the weight of the dual mass flywheel as this company claims.
My question is ,how do you get the eps “ bearing collar “out with out damaging engine case ?Collar is supposed to be loctited and pressed in.
Removal method looks kinda........rough.
I ran out of popcorn. Going to the store. zeeston996: please send some oil from the next change for analysis. And please post the results. Hopefully it's quite boring, shows nothing, and your engine is singing!
@Ratchet1025
I have not changed oil since the seal swap. I have put on 500 miles i beleive so ill chnge oil before 1000 and uptade. I may send some to the lab if it can be benificial.
there is a tool that the company who makes the new seal came up with. They sent this tool to the mechanic in florida and they wete able to extract the seal. Is that what you were asking about?
Thanks for coming back and letting us know! So many threads die without conclusion.
I do have one question though. How did your mechanic originally determine the IMS was failing, but that the engine was ok:
... Without ever looking at the bottom of the car to see that it already had an oil fed IMS?
Or taking important measurements of the engine, like cam deviation? Maybe they did, and just didn't go into that detail with you?
I'm NOT assuming something foul, I'm just wondering what I missed in the explanation.
I really hope you get up and running soon to enjoy your car!
Yes these are all good points and i can see how the way ive been reporting on the turn of events can seem spoty and some of those questions were questions that i had. I dont know if they did a cam deviation measurement. I actually didnt know what that was until i looked it up today. I may ask the mechanic about that in the future if i use them again.
how did they suspect ims failure before opening the engine up and finding a working oil fed ims bearing: i think they simply saw my oil filter with some metal shavings and just told me its got to be an early ims failure. A week later once the engine is taken out the mechanic finds that there is a oil fed ims already and that the rear main seal is damaged and has some metal scraped off, he was able to difinitively say its metal from the seal.
I beleive thats how it went down. I pressed him to do a full sweep of the engine to check for any possible damage and that was something that the mechanic also suggested to me. So we were both in agreement of checking the engine thoroughly which did not uncover any collateral damage. I know that they looked in the cylinders with a camera.
Its a tough situation to be in, as im sure many here know who have had their porsches in the shop. Youre basically putting the health of your car in the hands of another and hoping that they do a well enough job and dont miss any critical details.
i got to speak face to face with the mechanic when i picked up my car and he seemed eager to explain what he did and is a 911 enthusiast. The shop works on a lot of porsches so thats why i went with them. Theyre called palafox importa auto specialists in pensacola, florida.
#1 - They didn't have to remove the engine/transmission to see that it had an oil fed IMSB... The feed line is visible outside/under the engine.
#2 - I believe (although it's supposition on my part) FSI is trying to say that he's seen at least a few engines with serious problems that have come out of a shop in Florida that uses/makes EPS parts - but I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth...
#3 - That EPS "upgraded" RMS/Bearing looks like a bad idea on many levels - The most glaring one being that if the runout on that end of the shaft is out of spec., how is jamming a bearing around it going to fix that? Once you force this area back into center, what happens to the next main bearing in the line, or the crankshaft itself ? How long is the new bearing going to last before it starts shedding material (which is probably what happened to the last one that they "replaced for free"). More popcorn please...
If they had pulled the flange to inspect it, they would have seen what we've seen with every one of these bearings. The flange and bearing self-clearance themselves. That debris goes right into the bearing and then the rest of the engine. If it's magnetic, the source of the metal in the oil was likely from this:
But isn't that what the oil filter is for, right?
There are many things out there that are offered as the end all cure, but many aren't thought all the way through or even fully developed before being unleashed on an unsuspecting victim, like the rear main seal bearing or worse, boring out the engine case to change the larger 06-08 ims bearing.
No surprises there. I think we'll be seeing many more in the future... It's had to believe they sell it as a 1 size fits all when it's clear there were several different sized bearings used over the run of 996's... It's kind of crazy that they haven't been sued yet.
Greatings everyone, I have a update on the car now. Back when I got the car back after the new RMS I put 1000 miles on it and did and oil change and found flakes in my filter again. So I changed oild and drove a week and looked at the filter again and it was clean. At that point I was optimistic and the mechanic said to bring it in for a free oil change when I could. I put 1500 miles on the car and brought it in for another oil change/filter last week and the filter was totally clean. So the post RMS flakes were left over from when the old RMS had that metal wear. Now the oil is clean and the car is driving very well it sounds good, revs good and doesn't make any weird sounds. I hope this can help inform anybody else who may be having a similar issue. New RMS from European parts solution and a oil fed IMS and the car is about to turn over 90,000 miles.
*On a side note, I found a welder to do a little gundo hack on my mufflers which I'm hoping will be a nice medium exhaust sound. The muffler delete is too loud when pulling off from a red light. $250 for the welding work which is good compared to fister mod prices. The upside to fister is a restored muffler, I do think they look really nice and are built to last but mine are not falling apart and I'll do some restoration on the mufflers myself. Again, hope this is informative and if anyone has questions Im happy to help if I can.
Used oil analysis will only work for particle size up to 5 micron if the ICP process is used (Blackstone for example) or 10 micron if the RDE process is used (Speediagnostix). You'd have to use a lab that offers particle size and particle count which involves additional testing if you want to evaluate the oil for particles larger than the 5-10 micron range.
zeeston996 - this is all interesting as I also have a quantity of soft rubbery type material in my oil filter. I thought it might have been some excess silicone gasket maker, but the cross sectional profile of the pieces I recovered look more like what would be a bearing gasket. I also have a slight oil leak in the vicinity of the RMS.
How much disassembly did your shop end up doing before discovering the problem?
Thanks
jb
They took the engine out to get to the rear main seal. I too had some oil leaking in vicinity of rms.
My pieces or ruber/plastic were a little more as if they were shaved off kind of like what is laying on your filter. Maybe it depended on the way that the rms had ruptured.
