All the fluid swaps

Hi all - I have an 02 Targa, and I'm getting ready to swap the fluids in the car to set a baseline, as I don't have much history as to how old what's in the car is. I'm headed to my first track event in this car in May 6th, so I'm looking to do these over the next couple weekends. I'm looking for recommendations on what to use for: Trans fluid Brake fluid Clutch fluid Coolant Thanks in advance! Mike

My reco: Ate tye 200 for the brake fluid (the clutch shares the same brake fluid). The rest Porsche genuine fluid from Sunset Porsche parts.

I used all Motul fluids for mine including: Motul Race brake fluid, Motul Coolant Motul Transmision fluid Motul 8100 Excess Oil Car feels great.

From a specification perspective Motul 600 brake fluid looks better than ATE 200 for about the same price.

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That is correct. However, if you use Motul 600, you need to change it out a lot more frequently than OE type of fluid.

Motul 600 is a higher temp fluid, about double the price of ATE 200. ATE 200 is a 1 liter can and Motul 600 is 1/2 liter. Still not that much more $ for better performance Motul will also absorb moisture faster than ATE 200 Not a big problem, just flush and fill every year instead of every 2 years In any case if you are tracking your car at minimum flush and fill every year and bleed before every event Lets not get into an oil war, but Motul 8100 Xcess is a much better oil than Mobil1. Not that much more $. You can get 20 liters on Amazon for around $135 that comes out to around $6.43 a quart (sold in liters not quarts) vs ~$5.20 a quart for M1 at Walmart, so around $11 more for an oil change It has a higher temp sheer and if you are tracking, you engine get much hotter

+1 for Motul

Distilled water will work for all of those.* *By "work," I mean "will displace air in the respective tanks/reservoirs."

Easiest way to replace the brake fluid is to use a turkey baster and replace the fluid in the reservoir. Do this 3 times over 3 months and all the fluid will be replaced without cracking the bleeder screw open.

Auto or manual trans? I have an LSD, so when i choose to replace my trans oil, I plan to use the Porsche recommended Porsche brand fluid, since the manual trans and differential uses the same oil. LSD depends on the proper fluid type. There are alternatives, but again, I'm spending the money on the Porsche fluid.

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How does this address any water that has diluted the fluid in the brake and clutch lines?

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Nope, nada, ain't going to work drinking bagged milk must have affected your brain LOL

IMO's method works ok for power steering fluid but I wouldn't try it with brake fluid. For a manual tranny the Motul Gear 300 works really nice.

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That makes sense. IIRC, power steering fluid is circulated while brake fluid is not Feel free to correct me if I am incorrect

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Brake fluid circulates too due to convection but at a very slow rate. That's why the fluid gets dirty in the reservoir, otherwise the fluid would always stay clean in the reservoir and only get dirty in the lines near the calipers.

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Instead of personal attacks just post your technical opinion why do you think it ain't gonna happen.

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While the brake fluid in the reservoir does change color over time there is considerably more "stuff" in the calipers that can only be removed by flushing. Use a turkey baster to remove fluid from the reservoir put it in a clear container then flush the fluid from the calipers and capture it in a clean container and put the two containers side by side. It will be obvious why flushing the brake (and clutch for manual equipped cars) is necessary.

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How does the fluid at the far end of the system (i.e. in the calipers or at the end of the clutch line) circulate via convection? The fluid in the calipers is the fluid that you care most about replacing, since that's the fluid that will get hottest; if it gets too hot, the water in the fluid flashes to steam, and suddenly your brake pedal goes to the floor and (hopefully) you wind up in the gravel trap. Replacing the fluid in the reservoir makes it look nicer, but (all in my opinion) if there is still water content in the brake fluid in the calipers and lines, any partial brake flush is time wasted. Install speed bleeders or use your Durametric. Take the whopping 30 minutes to do the job right (admittedly, the clutch bleeder is a little harder to get to, but I don't skip it). The fluid in the calipers looks filthy after a year. Donate the turkey baster to someone trying to conceive...

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Time! Takes time for convection to circulate the fluid. That's why you have to wait a few weeks between reservist fluid changes. There is nothing magical about this, basic laws of physics.

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You can get the same results with a baster but it takes time. Every time you change the engine oil, change the fluid in the reservoir.

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geeze Louise. Lighten up It was humor LOL

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I understand what you're getting at, but relying on the hygroscopic properties of the new fluid to overcome the lack of a return line and suck enough moisture from the system to prevent brake boil seems...like a colossal waste of time, effort, and brake fluid. At best, you'll have brake fluid that has 1/xth of however much water was in the system to start with - assuming the mystical voodoo power of brake fluid convection dethrones compound interest as the most important thing that happens over time. More likely, you'll still have filthy, diluted fluid at the places you least want filthy, diluted fluid. But the reservoir will be clean, which should satisfy at least one Carmax checkbox.

Colossal waste of time? Takes hardly any time to do this. When you replace the fluid by bleeding the system, how long after it do you think the fluid will have the same amount of water as when only doing the reservoir change? At least with regular reservoir changes the fluid is always. I'm not saying not to bleed the system. Just there is another way to achieve pretty much the same thing.

I use pretty much all Castrol products except they don't make a coolant, so for that I typically use a Zerex product which is suitable for Al engines. Any of the quality name-brand fluids will work in your car. As for the exchange of brake fluid without draining the bleed end, it might get 10% exchange, maybe 20%, maybe even 35%. But - no where close to exchanging 100% of the fluid with new from the reservoir to the end of the circuit. In fact, it's my opinion that each time you exchange the fluid in the reservoir, the new fluid will attract a certain amount of moisture from the air again, and it's quite possible one would actually increase the % of hydroscopic content in the fluid. Certainly, if there is convective exchange occurring with the brake fluid, so is there convective exchange of the contaminants as well(typically water, but also various oxides). Recommend removing the oil fluid from the reservoir, adding new fluid, and just do the bleeder flush like normal people.

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Not saying I agree with the proposed method...but your response doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that replacing old brake fluid with new could "increase" the overall moisture content of the brake fluid? That by taking moisture away (by removing old fluid which contains moisture and contaminants), you increase the water content? if you have 4% (an example...3.7% is saturation) water in solution and you remove 25% of the brake fluid with a turkey baster and replace it, you now have 3% in solution (assuming convective mixing is a reality) The alternative read is that it increases the % of liquid that is hygroscopic (assuming you mean that the old fluid has "attracted" all the moisture it can) so that is bad....but then, that means bleeding the entire line is bad because you've replaced old water and contaminant laden fluid with new, clean fluid that can soak up more water. Again, same example as above, you now have 25% fresh fluid that can attract moisture...but will do so at a rate of a couple percent per year, at best, so you will still stay at a lower percentage of water in the line even after a couple years.

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It's possible. If we don't remove and replace 100% of the fluid by bleeding, there is always some leftover or stale fluid in the system. Some percentage of that old fluid is saturated with a mixture of water as all brake fluid is hydrophilic to some greater or lesser degree(I don't actually know the ionic property enough to say with any certainty just how hydrophilic it is). when the fluid is heated, and cooled at the brake, one can insure that the water content will find an equilibrium over time. Now we move to the 'exchange' event where the fluid mix of old brake fluid combined with a soluble amount of water is removed, and a pure, new brake fluid with almost no soluble water is present. In this case, the new fluid will naturally attract some amount of water as it is also hygroscopic. We are adding water from the air to a system which already has water in it, because we didn't bother to DRAIN the old fluid. Certainly there will be exchange due to thermal cycling, but the new fluid is currently attracting water so what you will be exchanging is some percentage of brake fluid, and some percentage of water into a system where there is already soluble water in the fluid. At some point in the closed end, there may be more soluble water due to the never-drain method. But - without testing, it's all empirical. Maybe it will be less down at the caliper, maybe it will be more. But certainly, it will in all cases be less soluble water in the fluid if all the old fluid is flushed out, and new fluid is drawn in.

Apparently, min boiling temp is reached in DOT4 at about 4-4.5% water by volume. I've read that absorption from the air is about 1% -2%per year (depending on driving). Again, your example does not compute.....take away 25% of the volume of brake fluid that has water in solution and replace it with pure brake fluid (with no water in solution), the total percentage of water in solution drops. Yes, the new fluid will take on water over time, but at a slow rate and you will still never exceed saturation. Several months later, you will replace 25 % more fluid, for example, and begin the process anew. Would the overall water content of the fluid be HIGHER than if you flushed the fluid, of course it would since water was present in solution to begin with....but would it be higher than, say, brake fluid that has already been in the reservoir untouched for over a year or two? Probably not...unless you are using fluid from an old, opened bottle that has been laying around.

I bet OP (Desmo) is looking for a new forum...Enough already!

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not as good as a complete flush but it does work ....been there done that in the field on "off road equipment " 45 years ago

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Where are you measuring water soluble content? If you are talking about the reservoir - who cares? Water content at the caliper is what's critical. My opinion is that the water content at the caliper very well could increase. Lets not forget that water is also heavier than brake fluid, and also it's less viscous and also higher in density. All factors that work to putting more water soluble in the lower end of the system where water will cause damage. Either way, it's a theory which is untested. Unless you want to do some chem assay, I'd say we can agree to disagree. I'm not going to do the un-flushing fluid exchange process, it's a semi-free country so knock yourself out.

I'm going to go out on a limb here...... There is probably a good reason that the factory says to flush the brake fluid at least every 2 years not exchange the fluid in the tank, flush the system If you are too lazy or whatever to have that done, so be it. As Doc said "it's a semi-free country so knock yourself out." If you track the car at all, you should flush and fill it at least every year

Wow. Flushed the brake and clutch fluid over the weekend, pretty easy job, and the old fluid looked good, but both were clear so hard to tell if I got 100% exchange, but pretty close. Brakes feel fine, the same, and clutch feels better, I got quite a bit of air out of the system. I ended up using a Penzoil Dot 4 with a wet boil point of about 512 if I recall. It was all I could find locally, and I had a narrow window to work on the car. thanks for the replies...at least most of them...

One more question. I won't have time to do a full coolant flush before I go to the track, but I would like to top it off as it looks a bit low. The problem is, I have no idea what's in there. Is it a safe bet to just top it up with Porsche coolant from the dealer (as much as I hate to do that out of principal)? Or is there a safe generic coolant I can use that will work and won't cause an issue with whatever is in there now?

I may have just Google-answered my own question, probably best to just top it up with distilled water for now, and deal with a full flush later?

Yep, or a bottle of Water Wetter is even better.

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Thanks! Safe to use, even if I have no idea what coolant is in there? Seems safe to use with all coolants?

If you're just topping off, distilled water works as well.

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Doc, I never said I agreed with the method...I just said that your comments didn't make sense. The purpose of glycol based brake fluids is to disperse moisture throughout the system...so that there are no puddles or bubbles of water, or areas of particularly high concentration. Me, I'd bleed/flush the whole system in order to eliminate all moisture, corrosion, etc. So I'll see you in line when we both go buy brake fluid.