Engine Failure - Possible IMS failure on '03 996

Well, almost exactly one year to the day from when I bought the car, it died on my while driving home from work yesterday. Won't be able to take it into the shop until after the holidays, but based on the symptoms, I'm fearing an IMS failure. Heavy rattling sound for 30+ seconds before a sudden and complete loss of oil pressure. Then the engine shut down. Any ideas on what else this could be or should I be planning for an engine replacement? Took three hours to get off the road during rush hour in Houston! On a side note, the police officer who stopped to check on me was a complete a$$hole. Tried accusing me of being a "hotroder" and couldn't believe that I only use the car for commuting. I finally convinced him it was just a DD, to which he reponded "must be nice to live so well". I told him the value of the car ($25k) and he said "I think you forgot to add a zero to that". I was a little taken aback but I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. Anyway, I'm a bit bummed this morning.

Major bummer! Sorry to hear it ... "On a side note, the police officer who stopped to check on me was a complete a$$hole. Tried accusing me of being a "hotroder" and couldn't believe that I only use the car for commuting. I finally convinced him it was just a DD, to which he reponded "must be nice to live so well". I told him the value of the car ($25k) and he said "I think you forgot to add a zero to that". I was a little taken aback but I guess I shouldn't have been surprised." What a douche...ignorant and arrogant! Nice combo for a guy with a badge and a gun...

That sucks. You have a beautiful car. How many miles on it?

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Thanks! It has 68k miles on it. Not nearly enough considering I bought it at 63k last December. Only 5k in one year... (my Touareg logged about 25k this year)

I just saw a 30000 mile 996 turbo motor, tranny and rear suspension in ebay for 19,000. I am getting sicker by the day hearing about these failures. I am really hoping that you have a good outcome. 30 seconds is a long time to hear that noise. I always thiught IMS failure was quicker than that for some reason. Good luck an keep us posted...

Don't let the 996's trouble spoil the holidays. Put it aside and focus on enjoying the time with your family and friends. Come the new year then you can focus on the car. Based on what you wrote I suspect the engine is toast. Well, not toast toast. That is it may be salvageable but you'll need an experienced Porsche tech to have a look and offer his opinion. But like I said wait until after the holidays. Try to put the car out of your mind for now. Ain't nothing going to happen until after the 1st anyway so why worry/think about this if you don't have to.

wtf? is there not a logo on the side of the police vehicle stating ' to protect and serve ' ? their mission statement, The mission of the Houston Police Department is to enhance the quality of life in the city of Houston by working cooperatively with the public to prevent crime, enforce the law, preserve the peace, and provide a safe environment. sorry to hear it Andrew, especially around the holidays

I'm sorry to hear. Looking at your old posts it appears the PO did the IMS bearing. Once again, like all here, will be interested to see what happened. Best of luck!

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If the failure proves to be an IMSB failure the failure was in evidence at the moment the noise appeared. In fact regardless of the root cause of the noise, the onset of the noise was the failure. The 30 seconds of noise was the death rattle of the engine. BTW, no pun intended for I'm really sorry to read of the OP's engine trouble. For fear of appearing to be piling on the OP at his time of trouble I hate to mention this but I will for the possible benefit of those that might yet experience this: As soon as you hear anything out of the ordinary, a rattle in this case, shut off the engine ASAP and do not restart the engine, do not attempt to restart the engine. No engine rattle noise ever got better with more engine run time. Admittedly this is harder to do than it might appear. The noise I'm sure catches everyone by surprise and there is some period of doubt as to what one is hearing -- the noise is so out of character -- and what does it mean and it can't be and so on. There is a tendency to want to try to analyze the noise and I'm sure note any characteristics to be able to make a thorough report to the technician when the car is brought in. While it is easy to write the engine should be shut off ASAP, frankly I'm not sure given the same circumstances that I would shut off the engine ASAP. All I can say for sure is I hope I never have to face this decision. Anyhow at the onset of any noises any delay in shutting off the engine can be the difference between the engine being salvageable or scrap.

Bummer. Try to enjoy your Christmas anyway...

Sorry to hear (read) this. Just forget it, have plenty of scotch on the rocks or whatever is your thing and come back to it after the holidays. Merry Christmas.

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Definitely a double Lagavulin night for me last night!

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I agree with what you're saying, but unfortunately it's just not possible in some conditions. In this case, I was moving at 75mph in the fast lane of a tollway with limited exits. It took a good 60 seconds, including coasting after the engine shut down, to get to a safe place. Not a good sound though. Clearly indicitive that some sort of damage was being done!

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Sorry to hear it and hopefully the engine is salvageable. I'd rather have a dead engine than having someone plowing into me at highway speed.

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Well said. My wife was driving her Mazda several years ago when the radiator let go. She knows to get the car stopped and shut the motor off if something like this happens, but it isn't always as practical - she was in the fast lane of 280 through downtown San Jose in heavy traffic. By the time she could pull over safely the needle was into the red and damage was done. The motor lost a head gasket, maybe warped a head. Those motors are so cheap I elected to source a 35K mile Japan market take-out instead of repairing the original 120K engine. That was 60K miles ago. Oh how nice it would be if we could source used low mile engines for $1K like you can for those cars! Good luck OP and keep us posted - major suckage especially right before Christmas. And especially if this was a replaced bearing - OEM or LN?

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It would be great to know source of the IMS replacement, the reason for the replacement (metal found in filter...just proactive...etc.) and how long ago and how many miles ago the previous owner had the work done.

Really sorry to hear of your misfortune! Flush it for a while ... until something can be done about it! Somehow wishing you Merry Xmas feels awkward after what happened! But wishing you the best outcome, at any rate!

Aw, crap, Andrew. If you check out my thread, I'm dealing with the same thing right now, so it may give you some good ideas of your options. Shocking about that cop, but my personal experience is that the VAST majority are freekin' A-hole scum losers that were probably beat up all the time in elementary school.

Andrew, As a newbie 996 Turbo owner, my heart goes out to you. I'm so sorry that this has to happen at the Holidays (I thought only I had that kind of luck). As others have so aptly stated, try to put it out of your mind for the time being. May you and your family have a very Merry Christmas. Best regards, Scott

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I'm sorry to hear your troubles and to make matters worst deal with a douchebag when you are in a stressful position, as you know you will have all the info, if you're planning to keep the car from other members who had been in the same situation, it is really sad after just 5000 miles after you bought it, daily driver a car who past the 60000 miles who was supposed to have less chances of IMS failure. But let's wait for the diagnosis.

Sorry for your troubles - over the holidays... The cop was a tool. Why is it nobody gives a damn if one shows up in $50,000 F-250 but heaven forbid you own an old , $25,000 Porsche.

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Yes, I know. Not everyone is at a stop light when the *noise* shows up. You did the best you could under the circumstances. No sense in having an accident at the same time so you did the right thing.

It looks like no big oil puddle under the car?? So maybe not the IMS. Possibly the oil pump drive key? http://lnengineering.com/index.php/c...hex-drive.html "Unlike many other internal engine components that require complete engine disassembly for replacement, the oil pump drive is accessible from the oil pump console on the front of the engine. After having a customer's freshly built track car blow up because of a failed oil pump drive, we decided to offer a heat treated, shot-peened, chromoly oil pump hex drive to replace the inferior, non-heat treated mild-steel factory pump drive on the M96 and M97 engine, which has known to fail, shearing in two, resulting in a catastrophic loss of oil pressure. Don't let this happen to you!" Chromoly Oil Pump Hex Drive $37.99

any idea if or when the IMS bearing was replaced? sorry to hear the news

03 996 engines are horrible for dropped valve seats, and I see a lot of these from Texas cars. We have almost narrowed it down to a difference in fuels, but thats speculation at this point thats under further investigation. The other big issue with the 03 engines is a failed timing chain, and I see more of these today that we see in regard to failed IMS Bearings. I have had master linked chains made that allow resurrection of an engine following this failure without engine disassembly required. Don't just to conclusions, have an M96 specialist properly diagnose the entire fault path before you start drawing conclusions. Note that I said M96 specialist- that doesn't men a guy thats been working on Porsches for 40 years, and it also doesn't mean take the car to a dealer. At 68K miles, the engine is worth a repair unless collateral damages are too great. We saved two dozen engines this year alone; not everything is terminal.

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Thanks for the thoughts here.

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I'm not giving up hope until there's been some diagnosis done. Well, beyond the "diagnosis by internet forum" that's beend done so far! If the engine does have to be replaced, I'm torn on whether it's worth looking into upgraded engines or sticking with with a stock M96. To this point, I've enjoyed keeping everything stock, but if I'm spending money to get it running again and there are better options out there...

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There definitely isn't a big puddle under the car, but there does seem to be a leak. In the year I've had the car, I haven't had a single drop of oil on my garage floor. In the 6 days it's been sitting since the engine went out last week, a few drops have shown up. It's not much, but it's a leak that wasn't there before. Should know more next week when I get it into the shop.

Rattles mean something that wasn't banging around before started banging around - so seals get dislodged/broken. Don't kill yourself trying to divine what happened by reading the oil drops on the garage floor...just enjoy the holidays and hope for the best. As an aside, your car is beautiful - hope it's back on the road soon.

Don't give up! This could be a new failure that hasn't been documented yet. The key to resurrection is the extent of collateral damage. It takes quite an M96 specific technician to know how deep to go when surveying secondary issues. Be more concerned with secondary issues than the primary.

Man that sucks. Especially this time of year with holiday expenses, property taxes, income tax etc. Strange reaction from the Houston Officer. I don't get him not having some empathy for a motorist assist.

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Yeah, a full repair might have to wait until after tax season. We'll see how the wife feels about it! The LEO was just a jerk, but it didn't bother me much. Given the state of affairs in the national discource regarding law enforcement, I'd expect a bit more discretion though.

I'm working my way through the neverending threads on this forum about M96/97 engine repairs. Seems to be a passionate subject, but so far they aren't providing much clarity on the best path forward. Questions: - Local repair or ship off to specialist? Obviously, it's in the best interests of someone like Flat6Innovations to have business shipped to them, and they're clearly the leaders (or just most visible) in repairing these engines. That being said, there's a lot of appeal to having the engine repaired and looked at locally so that I can spend some time at the garage learning about the engine. - Stock repair or upgrade? A quick google search shows quite a few options for engine upgrades/replacements for the 996. Is this dangerous territory or a good option? If I'm sinking money into getting my car back on the road anyway, this has a lot of appeal.

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If you are going to spend the money to have the engine repaired or rebuilt, or a used engine gone through prior to installing it in the car, you want to select a shop that will do you a good job, to state the obvious. If you have such a shop local to you use it. If not then you have to go to where the good shop is located. Based on my 2nd hand knowledge, Flat6Innovations appears to be a good shop, but of course is pricy. However, oftentimes the most expensive repair turns out to the least costly repair over time while the initially less expensive repair turns out to be the most costly repair over time. If you elect to have the engine repaired and of course if it is repairable, there are two paths to follow. One path is you have the engine repaired and brought back to its factory stock condition. The other path is have some things done to the engine over and above and beyond just bringing the engine back to factory stock condition. You can have the engine gone through and internal problems areas addressed. This is a slippery slope. If you say have X addressed, then Y can become a worry. If you then have Y addressed Z gets promoted to worry spot #1. Carried to its logical end you can have the entire engine gone through and at a substantial cost. I have to point out while if the above is done by a reputable shop this in no way guarantees the engine is not going to suffer from some catastrophic failure, only that the chances of this happening are lower than they would be otherwise. I dare say low enough as to not be a concern. 'course the odds of an otherwise healthy but untouched engine suffering a catastrophic failure are low to begin with though there is some disagreement about just how low. You have to decide what level of re-work you need in order to feel comfortable owning the car and what you are comfortable with spending to obtain this level of comfort. Certainly a consultation with the engine builder you have selected or at least is on your short list is called for to get an idea of what, if you chose to forego the whole ball of wax, what are the biggies to take care of, have addressed.

There's one fact... You only have one chance to make the right decision. To "make the engine better" requires knowing where the deficiencies lie, as well as the best way to approach the tasks. Just make sure that whomever does the work is proficient with the M96' no matter how many other Porsches they have in the shop, or how long they have been working with Porsche engines. I see 40 year veterans in my classes routinely and they are the hardest to instruct, as this engine shares nothing with those that came before it. Today about 1/2 of our work has been to another shop first, and that wastes a lot of money and makes our job more difficult. It's so bad that we no longer receive vehicles that have been disassembled by someone else. Our repairs are not "pricy". We repair engines more cost effectively than any other shop, as well as more completely. Not wasting your money on the wrong things is my main goal, and ALL our work is done with package pricing, and exact costs are detailed up front. We don't charge more "once we get it open and find more" because we find more before we even carry out the proposal process. I see people get "worked" by the General way of doing automotive business all the time. It's the same old story.

MB Motorsports Repair in Chicago has a rebuilt engine for sale for $10,000. Based on just looking at their website this is a large part of their business. I have zero first hand knowledge of the company and I do not know what you get for the ten thousand. Out of curiosity I asked them what shipping an engine to Los Angeles would cost and they said about $250 to $350. Just one of many possible ways to go. Get back on the road soon. ps - it wouldn't hurt to talk to a dealer just to see what they offer and say.

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The Interview Haters Gonna Anus - YouTube

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Thanks Jake. I shot you an email last night. If we can, let's set up a time to discuss over the phone. I'd like to get your thoughts before getting too far down a set path.

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It's a good thing this happened during the holidays when work is slow! There's no way I'd have time to get through your thread with a normal workload. Even now I'm only up to page 10...

Our scheduled winter shutdown continues through Jan 5. I will try to log in and see the email. I am working on my new training facility during shutdown and have some extra time that we may be able to speak. I've been swinging a hammer for 6 months on this place, and I am ready to be done...

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Google them before contacting them. 3rd business name this year, they utilize 1 of the oil fed IMSB replacements & apparently some of their rebuilt engines are assembled overseas.

A "rebuilt" engine does not equal a Jake Raby engine. Completely different things and I would be cautious trusting any other shops "rebuilt" engine. Read some of Jakes horror stories about "rebuilt" engines.

Andrew, I am rebuilding my M96 now after a similar incident to yours. I visited many engine rebuild shops in Los Angeles and Orange Co. that claimed competence with M96. Most failed when I asked to see the written warranty they offered on their rebuild and the list of parts they normally replace/upgrade. With such an expensive repair ,the worst resolution is to save a few $$$$ upfront but then have a subsequent engine failure. Those are the really 'pricy' rebuilds. The other issue is the effect of your choice of rebuilder on the resale value of the car.Yours is low miles and in great condition so this is key. A diy /no-name rebuild may be a negative for a DD ? The other issue that troubled me was the "we use all OEM parts" claim by some rebuilders. Those are the parts that failed & got me in this me$$$$$ ! I wanted every intelligent upgrade I could get to minimize the risk of another failure. Btw , a potential short cut to finding competent rebuilders is to find a machine shop that does lots of M96 work and ask which of their customers build Porsche engines for the track boys.If their engines hold up to race abuse ,they are probably O.K. Had you considered selling it as a roller and starting over?

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As has been mentioned in some other threads, I think the word 'rebuilt' is much too vague to provide much value to the discussion.

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Of course, the first step before any decisions are made is to first figure out the extent of the damage! I'm assuming the worst, but any discussion is premature and getting real information is delayed due to the holiday timing. All that being said, I'm torn on whether I should cut bait and move on or to put some more money into the car. Engine notwithstanding, the car is in superb condition and has fairly low mileage. I may be one of the few, but I actually like the 996 look and this style/color combination made this a car that I really loved. Still, I need a car I can drive regularly and count on to be somewhat dependable. I'll seriously consider selling it as a roller if I can get a decent offer on it. I'm looking at 997.2 options and/or going with a new Cayman. My local dealer has a 1959 356A Cabriolet for sale. Only $299,991!

Jake Raby is pushing the sell hard! Haha jk, but from my understanding they do excellent work, and everyone is right in saying pay a little more upfront to save a lot on the back end. I also have an '03, and am curious to see what they find with your "ims upgrade" car as I have had mine done. Keep us posted! P.S. the 997.2 is PHENOMENAL, so worst comes to worst go for it and you will not regret .

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No hard sale from my perspective! I did reach out to him, but he seems to make a common sense case. One way or another, the theme is to do it right the first time around.

In other news, I've determined that Rennlist may have to go into my NSFW list. Every other thread I've been reading on the 996 forum has devolved into the sharing of eye candy (of the non-car variety). If I have to stop accessing the site at work, I don't have time to read at home!

To asses the damage may be difficult without a complete tear down because of the dispersion of metal debris throughout the engine. You could : 1. drop the pan/cut open the filter and inspect 2. remove all spark & cam plugs and turn the engine over very gently by hand and observe cams/pistons. This may satisfy your curiosity but it would take an expert to decide what to do next.

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Click on "user cp" link above and click "edit options" link. Towards the bottom, deselect "show images". Done. This is how I'm only able to work 2 hours and browse RL for the other 5.

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Sigh...done, but such a shame to miss out on all the nice pictures. Of the cars. Yes, the cars are all I'll miss. Thanks.

[QUOTE=kab1994;11914300]Jake Raby is pushing the sell hard! Haha jk, but from my understanding they do excellent work, Please don't say such things until you actually talk to Jake. Just understand he does everything at FULL throttle. He is just (madly?) enthusiastic about his work. Little would get done in the M96 world without his hard charging. It is enthusiasm ,not aggression but I appreciate it may seem excessive to sensitive members. And as far as "excellent work" is concerned- he gets paid for that. I am grateful to him because he gives valuable, free technical advice on subjects few others have any experience of ? So I'll accept a little boisterousness gladly. I hope you can too.

Does anyone really think JR has to "sell" anything? With the rate these engines destroy themselves he has an up to one year waiting list of people begging for his work. In fact, he actually culls many potential customers because he doesn't need them. Great position to be in as a businessman.

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That's actually a trick question and can go both ways. He was smart in that he patented everything so technically he could just sit back and have money coming in from the patents and the distribution network he setup. However to prevent the distribution network from going south due to false/malicious/inaccurate rumors about his technology/invention/products, he has to set the record straight from time to time. I don't think there is anyone that doubts Jake's technical abilities, however not all agree on his business/marketing tactics here. For those that's been on here long enough can see the trend that went from being a technical support type role to marketing and now it seems like it's swinging back to the tech role again with less marketing. That's just my $.02

Jesus Mary and Joseph people it was a joke. Please unwad your panties and move along with your day.

In which case perhaps your 'confessional' should have been addressed to Jake.

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Who are these people? Do they repair M96 engines?

Andrew, I hope not because every time we asked a question,we'd have to listen to a sermon instead of fire & brimstone from Jake !

The reason why the wait is that long, is because I refuse to grow the business away from what created it. Attention to detail, and a chunk of me going into every build. Thats not true. I do not accept every job that comes our way, and most of the reason for this is I have developed a 6th sense in regard to those who can't be pleased. Its not the questions they ask, but how they ask them that proves if someone won't be a good fit for my process. Note that I said "process", because this isn't just an engine purchase. If someone starts off a consultation asking about warranty- right away I'll start pushing him to a competitor. Why? Because the best way to take out the enemy is feeding him with people that can't be pleased, and the lawsuits they will force upon him will soon snap his enthusiasm. Yes, I am a Marine, we fight from the flank, and we don't know how to spell the word "lose" Again, you need to understand how all this works. For most of the products I develop them for LN and get paid for that, or I will have the idea, develop the concept and then develop the product and then sell that. I am a developer, I don't have time to sit around and look for residual income that some yahoo thats selling parts will probably try to steal from me anyway. This is why I develop for LN, I helped found that company and Charles and I are close friends, having worked together for more than 15 years. I know that my ideas, inventions, developments and perfections will be respected, well made and accurately represented. LN deals with the distributors, the sales and the manufacturing. Once a part hits the market- I am done. First and foremost I am an idea man, and a bit of a crazed developer. I am NOT a businessman, the "business" is the necessary evil that I must deal with to be able to do what I love. I've never had a "job" in my adult life, and I have to deal with a lot of crap to be able to say that, just like any business owner. I have to set the record straight, because there's a lot of morons out here. They partially read technical details, make up a bunch of crap, reprocess it through their non- mechanical mind and then "parrot" that all over the internet like an expert... An expert that wouldn't know a piston from a pushrod, and probably couldn't even change his own tire. These are the guys that waste their employer's money sitting behind a keyboard cruising RL and other forums all day long, while they are supposed to be working. Because I am real. I don't sit back and kiss people's asses trying to be their buddy and I don't sugar coat things. People don't know how to handle that today. Their perception is the problem, because the way I convey information is the absolute easiest way to understand it. It just doesn't come across like I am begging for their business like everyone else. Guess what? When I started this company I drove a 1962 VW bus with no back window and ate bologna sandwiches for 3 weeks at a time saving every dollar that I could. I didn't kiss anyone's *** then to make a sale, and that hasn't changed.In those days my single employee would always get his paycheck, but I'd go for 2 months without getting mine. His never bounced, and I built this place without a single dime from a bank, and I doubt many people could say that. That single employee is still here today. I don't come here and view a post and say "damn, how can I market that XXXX here" or I don't see someone's failure or issue and wonder how I can have him ship the car to me. I post what I think, based on what I have experienced, and I do so in a forward, direct and concise manner. Take it any way that you'd like, and love it, or hate it, but know that you'd never be able to change me. What none of you know is that I have been sick since December 2013. Started with a head cold that led to sinus infections and then a loss of hearing. It took 6 months to figure out that it was all allergy driven, because I had never had allergies before. Now I find out that I am allergic to damn near everything and two days of my week are spent traveling to get allergy shots. Thats no big deal, lots of people do that for years, but it does suck. Just this week my hearing has fully returned, and for once I can breathe after just over 1 year. I worked right through the sickness and had the craziest year ever on top of it, ending with my new training facility completed. I built 2/3 of that 5,200 sq ft building myself after the framing was done, also while I was sick as a dog! To be honest, the ONLY stress in my life today comes from threads on these forums. Its not because people are complaining that really matter, because those people that matter are our customers, the ones who pay us for the chunk of our life that goes into making their Porsche engine survive. These people never complain, because they are treated with respect, fairness and we deliver what we say, when we say, for the price that we set up front. I let the negatives bother me, because I don't want them to occur. I want to share what I know, help people, have their car see the road again and for everyone to be happy.Its not that easy, because usually a vendor hater jumps in and starts making insinuations that I am a self serving ***** that just wants to sell you parts- even though I do not sell parts! I have to say that these forums teach me a lot about what NOT to do, what NOT to offer and who NOT to deal with.If it weren't for them I would have released my book with a target on my back and would have never known it till it was too late. Today I can see that the book has nothing good that will come from it, so the search is on for someone to pay me for the content, and do whatever the hell they want to with it. I am good with it, as long as my name isn't on it at all. At one time I wanted to be able to say that I wrote the book on it; but at the end of the day, that doesn't mean a damn thing. I know what I have developed and how I have done it, and thats enough accomplishment for me for a lifetime. Ok, rant over.. Gotta go use the router to finish my custom receptacle covers in this bay of the training area and get them installed tonight, so I can get ready for floor treatments tomorrow!

Self marketing right there.^^^ We can do without all the Stuart Smalley stuff. As for the book, I somehow knew it wasn't going to take off at the end. Initial delay > content removed(modes of failure) > no book from me

I think Alpy was joking?? Jake illustrates the two extremes in this thread. Clueless buffoons who spout absurd nonsense about their "theories" and an expert who has been there and done it all. Maybe Jake will invite the buffoons to the inaugural class at his new training center. The mesmerized audience could randomly throw 32mm wrenches at them while they espouse and opine their IMSB theory and wax poetic about the old days in their DD "race cars". Nice training center, BTW.

As long as the content is available, it doesn't matter who's name is on the cover. That's what I've realized. It's a hell of a lot easier to be the guy working in the shop that's 20 miles from the nearest gas station, has no telephone, no internet connection, and lots of equipment and is filled with toys. That's all I care about anymore, and all I should have ever cared about.

Jake, I think your suggestion of a pay-to-play (technical nerds only) Forum would eliminate most of the Trolls. Best of all, you could fire them :-). It is unfortunate that here the abuse/rudeness appears to be condoned .

I have 5 daughters and a wife in my house right now. It is about that time of the month. And there is less PMS and mood swings in my house than here.

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Wow! I happen to really like knowing the guy I intend to spend a good chunk of change with at some point. Before I had my hot rod Buick motor built, I spent time with the guy, bought some small stuff. I wanted to know who I was dealing with because the motor did eat a rod bearing and the guy did stand behind it. Clearly Jake is the same kind of guy. I for one like hearing about it and do not find it self serving, just honest. Not much honestly left out there. If you don't like it, don't read it. A guy like you that has been here forever should know that already though...

So-if Jake is not going to author the book then it's probably ok to include the modes of failure from the new author ?

If you have a contribution, this is the place to add to the existing list: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...th-issues.html

I guess I was too subtle .Jakes reason for pulling the modes of failure was the negativity it will generate .If he offloads the book to another author -the new author might be inclined to include .

Jake, The new TC looks great, can't wait to get to class! See you soon!

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All for that. And I don't even own one yet.

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Told you, buy a Honda Civic great room for speakers and so on!!

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I have an S2000, why bother with a Civic? :P

Sadly I doubt Jake will bother with his own Forum. He has all the projects and business he needs. But he was happy to help us - for free. He won't read this -otherwise I would not mention the following . If you ever deal with Jake, you would be deeply saddened that Rennlisters could not accommodate his unusual personality and talent. Yes, some of his posts seem black/white,binary, hard-charging, intolerant of fools, ultra focused and even bombastic. But Jake Raby's posts were honest and the advice accurate and free. For those with any understanding of psychology you will have connected the dots by now. It is a common profile for very intelligent,gifted but ...... personalities. Some of us are different.Some very different. Insults and bullying are a sinister response to someone who was just different,very different . Now the Forum has lost one of it's most qualified & generous contributors. There are several anecdotes about Jake heroically helping Rennlisters - and going to extreme lengths to satisfy even a hostile customer.I'll add my experience only because he will never read it buried in an obscure thread.He would be mad I did this but it needs saying. I had never spoken to him,never bought anything from him.He did not know me. I posted an obscure problem I had with my car. Out of the blue he sent me his own special & expensive tool to fix the problem no charge. Just send it back when I am done. Nobody outside his inner circle has ever seen that tool. Why would he help a complete stranger to that extent? Who else on Rennlist would do that ?Nobody else (including me)even understood the problem ! The few that ridicule & vilify Jake have won. I wonder if those same few picked on the 'different' kids at school also ? I just hope they just failed 'read the dots' I mentioned above ,and failed to realize how sinister their intolerance was.

^^^ Well he is sticking around so all is well.

Quotes source post: 11928146

Yep. All is well, back to my old username and we'll try this all again.

Jake, You are a glutton for punishment ! But I am (selfishly) glad about that.

My breed never quits, and never gives up! Hell, we don't know how to spell "retreat" either!

Don't sweat the spelling but please try to memorize this piece adapted from Reinhold Niebuhr : Rennlist grant me the serenity to accept the Listers I cannot change; courage to change the parts I can; and wisdom to know the difference And tell the Admin when things get bad.

Hey Schnell I love that!

Damn auto correct... I guess I use the word "bored" more than "breed"

Quotes source post: 11928369

If you were a "quitter" type, Jake, you would not have come up w/ the "solution". Thanks for all the help you provide on this site.

Sorry for taking so long on an update. I'm sure you're all on pins and needles. Between the holidays and my work schedule, I wasn't able to get the car into a shop until last Friday, and it wasn't until today that I had any feedback. It's not good. So they cranked the engine but shut if off after just a couple of seconds. Apparently the sounds coming from the engine were pretty awful. Today they pulled the oil filter and found pieces of brass, aluminum and steel. All told, that paints a pretty bad picture. For now I'm holding off on any more diagnosis work while I consider my options. I don't consider an engine replacement from a salvage a real option. I'm also not a fan of trying to repair an engine that's seen this kind of damage, if it's even possible. That leaves me with selling a roller, replacing w/ a different type engine, or "renovating" the engine (Flat6 style). It's a financial hit no matter what, but at least the last two leave me with a Porsche to drive at the end!

Sorry for the latest bad news. Why don't you just sell as a roller and write it off as a bad experience? Your close to me, would you be interested in just washing your hands of the whole ordeal?

Quotes source post: 11975459

I'm definitely willing to listen to offers. In a perfect world I'd write this off as a bad experience and move on. But I've enjoyed having the car and I know myself too well to know that I wouldn't go very long before getting a new one. Writing off a $27k purchase and then sinking money into another one is a lot more expensive than getting this one back on the road. The car itself is in such great shape that it just seems a shame.

They tried starting it? Really? After you gave them that description? If you go forward with a refurb or replacement I would find someone else to do it for you. We all know what the likely result of your original description is, but we also know you never try to restart it. Thats not going to do anything but make it worse and be damn sure your motor is a useless hunk of metal

Quotes source post: 11975483

Yep. Under no circumstance should the engine be started if it's even a possibility that it has mechanical damage. Doing so can cost thousands of dollars more in core damages in just a few seconds. We don't start cars here that we believe have any issue. We carry out an extensive, somewhat invasive inspection before we even think about putting the key into the ignition. I only have one broken "roller" in stock at the present, so I am looking for some. I had 14 this time last year.

Quotes source post: 11975476

I think since you like the car and seem to have patience the best idea would be to ship the car to Jake and forget about it for a while. Have him do what he does best to your engine and when you get it back you will have a better car than it was when it was new. You can drive it and enjoy it for many years and the present problems will just be a memory.

Well if you sell it as a roller, let the bidding begin. I start at 5000.00 and I'll pick up.

Quotes source post: 11975546

Thanks, JD FYI-I have tagged the line for failed engines for a few months... We are now at 14 months for a completion, and thats the busiest we have ever been- EVER! When we have this many (failed) projects going on, the admin is overwhelming, with constant updates for all purchasers and etc. I'll open the line back up when we get down to 12 months or less. Still taking on preemptive builds , they follow different guidelines and are a joy to work with. New pricing goes into effect March 1, and everything we build is getting 2K more expensive, or more.

Quotes source post: 11975729

That's great for you, but not so good for me. I'm patient, but wating without knowing when slots will open up is a bit too passive of an approach for me. After talking with one of your recent customers a couple of weeks ago, it's apparent that the 14 month backlog is well deserved. I've only heard positive feedback.

Quotes source post: 11975546

Thanks for the positive view. I'm thinking along the same lines, but I'm still unsure what the alternatives are to Flat 6 Innovations.

"I think since you like the car and seem to have patience the best idea would be to ship the car to Jake and forget about it for a while. Have him do what he does best to your engine and when you get it back you will have a better car than it was when it was new. You can drive it and enjoy it for many years and the present problems will just be a memory." That's all well and good unless Jake deems the engine "disqualified" for a rebuild. Then what - pay for shipping home of your blown engine? Doesn't seem like such a good idea to me...

You cant go wrong with Jake but it sounds like a long wait and your going to sink $20,000 more into a $5000 car. So your going to have @$40,000 or more in a 12 year old 996? I would only consider this if your absolutely crazy about the car and plan on keeping it. If you sell it after fixed, your still only going to get @$23,000 for it and that's IF the potential buyer knows what a Jake rebuild is. If not, then its going to be harder to sell with the blown engine stigma. Maybe consider a used engine or just sell now and forget it. Every option pretty much sucks for you. Sorry bruh.

Quotes source post: 11976186

Thanks. Last year the failures were just too much to deal with. We can save anything but not being able to source the most crucial cores, that kill most every engine, is a real drag. It keeps us from being able to offer standardized pricing and introduces variables cost- wise that can hurt our reputation. No matter how many documents someone signs, and how many times they are told that we don't know the cost of collateral damage until we have the engine apart, some will still make a statement that I must avoid at all costs. We are trying really, really hard this year to work with those who love their cars enough to carry out preemptive reconstruction work. Last year was a real pain in the ***, we only saw two preemptive builds and some engines saw 5K worth of post- failure collateral damage. I have one employee that chases core components and engines all day long, and we still have issues finding what we need thats in perfect condition. That said, we will be accepting failure builds later in the year again. I just want to get back down to 9-10 months of backlog, so we can ease up some of the admin work. Jud contacts every purchaser every 10 days, no matter what, and with 14 months worth of folders on the wall, thats a never ending circle for him. As far as spending more on the engine than the car is worth, well, thats been the same since the 356 and 914 days. Any time someone uses this in a conversation with me, I know (that more than likely) they are not my purchaser, because they don't love the car.

you could probably get the car back on the road with a similar motor to what yours had, say 60-100K miles, for $10-12K out of pocket if you bought a complete running car and swap the engine over to yours, sell the trans, sell the other shell, add in a LN IMSB while you are in there, etc. Just an idea.

Quotes source post: 11977442

I'm caution you not to judge someone too harshly who gives some thought to how much is being poured into their car. I think it has to be part of the consideration. A person can love their car and still take a step back to do an objective analysis. I'm either going to pour $20k+ into my current 911, or sell it for what I can get and go buy a newer 911. Either way money is being spent, but the owner needs to look at the full picture. What end result is most likely to bring me the most smiles, and how long am I going to have to wait for each course of action.

I _love_ my car - but if prices stay low, it would be far cheaper for me to sell the roller and buy another '99. As long as this is true, even 10K for a motor is going to be hard for me to justify.

^^What he said!

I just got off the phone with a person who made the same statement. Like I always do, I told him the facts, and that the enthusiasm of owning the car has to be a driving factor in buying my engine. The people that buy my engine do love the car, and thats why I have seen only a couple of those vehicles ever be sold (when's the last time you saw one advertised with my reconstructed engine?). I love dealing with people who love their car, and some of them look at a failure as an opportunity. An opportunity to build something unique, robust and powerful. Usually when someone doesn't love the car, I tell them to sell it as it stands. Why? Because spending money just to repair it and then sell it is what really doesn't make any sense. So many people want to half *** patch these engines up and send the problem to the next guy, and some of them don't even get a chance to hose the next guy, because the engine fails again before they can sell it.

In my view these cars are expensive toys, not practical transportation. It depends on how much you love or don't love the car and your financial situation as to what course of action one takes if it needs an engine. There are no set answers because everyone is different. I sell V8 bikes for 60000 thousand dollars and more. The guys that buy em love em, others think they're nuts. Some guys will have Raby build a 20000 dollar engine for their 20000 dollar Porsche and be thrilled, others will think they're nuts. So where does this leave us, exactly where we started, nothings new.

Quotes source post: 11978176

I think we're painting a false dichotomy here. It's possible to be objective with your money and also passionate about your car. I love my car. I probably looked at and/or test drove over a dozen 996s before I found one that had the right mix of color, options and condition. I bought it to be both a long term toy and a daily drive. But it's not like I couldn't love another car as well, if I found the right one. If it costs me $25k and 16 months to get this car on the road versus $40k (net) and 3 months to get in a 997.2, then it's at least worth weighing the options. That doesn't mean I'm cheap or lack passion, just that I'm not blind and foolhearty.

But the most important factor of all.......I really don't want to have to change my user name!

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/pts/4856221765.html supposed to be a rebuilt x51, which already failed once no affiliation

Quotes source post: 11978176

I think there is a third option. Those of us that would do it, but recognize that its nuts I know my wife will keep hers the rest of her life because it is her car. She got to order it as desired and the 911 was her dream car as a kid though she never expected to be in a position to actually have one. Whenever she makes noises about a 991, all I have to do is suggest that she'll have to let go of the 996 and that ends the conversation. So I can understand her emotional attachment to it that goes well beyond its actual value and justify putting a Raby motor in if this one fails. Financially I recognize its a dumb idea though and I'm nuts to consider it.

Quotes source post: 11978263

I agree w/ you Andrew. I love my car, and nobody has the right to ever question that. I have a emotional bond with it. Maybe if I were in your shoes, I would keep the roller (which is worth $6,000 on a good day) and still buy a 997.2 and just save up for another couple months. Hopefully overtime I would be able to rebuild the 996 to its former state, while still enjoying my Porsche passion in the 997.2.

The way it would work for me is how do I want to spend $20,000 out of pocket at the moment I'm faced with the dead engine problem? In my case I'm $23,000 into it right now. If my engine dies I can go a total of $43,000 into it to get back on the road. Choice A - Put $20,000 into my roller and have a 996 with a new Raby engine.... Choice B - Cash the roller in for $5000 to add to my $20,000 out of pocket which buys me what for $25,000? A replacement 996 with an unknown used engine?

Your in exactly the same boat I was. Repairing my blown engine was just too costly and didn't make sense, in the end I sold off whatever I could, luckily including the heads which were ok!! Then I did buy another engine from a breaker but stripped it down to improve , it's much better improving an engine that was running rather than trying to repair the un repairable and works out cheaper in the long run. I also agree with everyone else , you don't start a poorly 996 engine, if your finding brass , that sounds like head damage, valve guide material possibly??? I would buy a used engine but get it bore scoped and compression tested to make sure it's good to start with, Then tear it down and put new big end and mains, upgrade ims, rings, cylinder strengthening rings or liners, valve guides and seals water pump AOS , you know the drill!! Best of luck!!

I am rebuilding an M96 now. I would grade my decision to incur the cost,time and anxiety of rebuilding as F-F-F. F ascinating engine but F inancially F oolish. Would I do it again -sadly, yes because the engine and it's faults are intriguing. Although I have all the tools, equipment,skills(?) to do an M96 rebuild, I lack the knowledge required to do so confidently because Porsche does not share the vital specs , clearances with owner/enthusiasts like us. We are left begging Raby for help on issues like bore ovality & taper, special tools. If my rebuild succeeds ,I will owe that good fortune to Raby,not Porsche.

Would love to know what a Raby build is on a good motor...just take it out, strengthen all the issues and put it back in with the bells and whistles!

My '96 Corvette - which is dangerously close to clicking over to 30K miles - is one of the few possessions I have of my mom's - her dream car for decades and her prized possession for many years before she passed away. The connection I have with her memory when driving that car makes it valuable far beyond what KBB says it's worth. If that car needed a new small-block V8, I wouldn't hesitate. Some folks feel the same way about their 996's - others feel like it's a really cool car that three other people have also owned, and replacing it with one just like it wouldn't be that big of a deal. *shrug* What did OP ever decide to do, anyway?

Quotes source post: 11980635

He decided to start a new thread here https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...t-options.html

It won't. A 96 LT1 will go 200K miles easily. And if you had to replace it could be done for less than $5K or better yet upgraded to LSx for less than that.

Quotes source post: 11980732

I think it'll go forever - it's an auto, and I replaced the D36 with a D44 and 3.73 gears. It pulls like a freight train without working the engine too hard, although it does sometimes bleed ATF if I run it in second too long at the autocross. The LS swap into a C4 is harder than you'd imagine only because of CA smog, but it's doable - some other poor guy did it first, so there's precedent now.

Quotes source post: 11980632

Whether its a preventative build, or the result of a failure, I still throw away about 100 pounds of parts from every engine. I have almost 7 tons of scrap to haul away on Monday. Whether parts are good, or bad, I still throw them away and start from scratch. I retain 6 major internal engine components, thats all.

Quotes source post: 11980635

Nothing decided yet, but I'm sharing some emails with Jake and hope to chat with him in the next couple of days to see what we can't work out. I'm definitely leaning toward getting the engine redone. It helps that my wife is firmly in the "do what we have to to get it fixed" camp. She doesn't even drive stick, but apparently she's formed an attachment too!

Quotes source post: 11981266

Cheaper to do preventive build though correct?

Quotes source post: 11982124

HELL YES! I am giving big incentives for preemptive builds, trying to make our lives easier here. Once a failure occurs the caris of the road for a year, the enine needs 2-7K worth of core components replaced, and there's no incentives. With a preemptive things are much different. The owner only does without the car for the final 3 months of the bild, the engine is 2K cheaper to build due to my incentives, and no core expenses occur. Last year we only had two preemptive builds all year. Everything ese was blown up, and scattered.

Quotes source post: 11982239

What's involved in a preemptive build and what are being addressed?

Quotes source post: 11982481

There are no options. Every engine receives all failure modes addressed and is reconstructed from A to Z. I really have to watch this sort of information on forums, because it's not generally accepted by the members. I offer on e monthly online presentations to those who are interested in what we create from a preemptive reconstruction point of view. It's 1-2 hours in duration, depending upon the amount of attendees and their questions. The next one is February 25. The last one was last week and we had a full house. You can also email [email removed] to register for the free presentation, or to get more answers. I don't want to step outside the bounds of the forum by answering questions :-)

Quotes source post: 11984312

Jake, do you have any trusted engine builders in Europe who use your components/have been trained by you? Reason for asking is that we are planning a move to Europe later this year and was just wondering if there's anyone over there who can be contacted in case I have a need in the future. Thanks!

Quotes source post: 11984506

There are two Porsche engine rebuilders in the UK that I have read about. Hartech and Autofarm. I believe neither of these businesses have received Jake Raby's training. At least I've read no mention of this training in the number of posts I have read by representatives of both companies. Both I believe developed their engine rebuilding procedures on their own. Both advertise in the several UK published indy Porsche auto magazines.

Jake (or anyone else who can answer this), I know there are quite a few of your engines out there. But I am curious. Do any of your 996 engines get used in any type of formal racing? If so, by whom? By formal racing, I simply mean anything more serious than Porsche Club events, DE or other similar informal track events. I just want get an idea of the extent of the feedback that you get on your own work. b-man

So PCA Club Racing isn't formal racing? That's all I use my Raby engines for.

Quotes source post: 11984927

Some good feed back in post 14 https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...n-boxilla.html

I have provided engines for PCA, SCCA, as well as Koni challenge in the old days. We have also built engines for Gran Am Continental Series, and World Challenge. You'll never see my name on a car, thats the way that I want it, and the way that it has to be. That said, I haven't accepted any race engines in the past two years. We have no time to deal with racers and most (other than Lon) want something tomorrow. I've found my place in development and would much rather do that, than build a race engine. To me there's no satisfaction from building a race engine, at least not like what I receive when solving a problem that impacts tens of thousands of road going cars. I've been there, done that, and did it under the cloak of darkness, and never had to brag about it. I have had many Europeans, Asians, and Australians travel for my classes over the years. In the last class we had 11 countries represented, the farthest traveler was from Australia.

Just spoke with a local salvage shop that my dealer recommended. Unlike the poster in one very entertaining thread recently, I don't think I'm delusional, but the offer from the salvage yard was downright insulting. I won't share it here, but it was shocking. They hadn't seen the car and didn't think that seeing it first hand would make a difference. They also openly laughed when I said I could part it out for a lot more than they offered. Oh, and they said they could probably get me an engine for $12-14k... The brand new P-zeros I have on the car are worth about as much as they offered! Moving on. The car is coming back home, where it'll be washed, waxed, covered and put back into the garage. I'm going to be posting a classified to sell it as a roller, while also taking my time looking into other options. I'm not going to rush into getting a new motor into it and it's too nice of a car not to go to an enthusiast.

Yes, those offers are usually very low from dismantlers. When I buy cars I pay more for them, because we are going to hold them to be resurrected by a new owner, with new enthusiasm. Its not a huge amount more, but every bit helps. I love the color of your car, if the interior is gray I'd probably keep it for myself. Been waiting on that color combination to come along for a while! The blue ones seldom fail, the silver ones are another story :-)

Quotes source post: 11990734

Inside joke!

this thread convinced me to do preventive IMS bearing replacement! thanks op and sorry for your misfortune..

Andrew and I spoke last night. In the first 2 minutes I knew he was a sharp guy. After the first 5 minutes I pretty much knew that he loved this car. He has all the time he wants to consider his options, and I told him what his car was worth to me, as it sits.

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AndrewMT996, you seem very reasonable in your perspective and analysis of the situation. I am very sorry for your loss and I feel your pain. I am sure I speak for a lot of people who read your posts in this thread. b-man

Quotes source post: 11993369

Thanks b-man. At the end of the day, we're here discussing ownership of Porsches, which are largely surperfulous luxury items. Even when a lot of money gets washed down the drain in the blink of an eye, it still pales in comparison to real issues going on elsewhere in the world. Perspective in all things. Still...it's sad to see a beautiful machine designed to be driven sitting in a garage!

Quotes source post: 11993202

Jake, thanks for your time last night. It was great to get a better feel for where you sit with your backlog and also the value you see in the car. But mostly, I enjoyed just listening to you discuss the engines and break down the details. I loved the enthusiasm!

Quotes source post: 11992711

I highly recommend it. It's a vital insurance policy and can save you big money. Word of advice: make sure the preventative work is done right and by someone truly qualified to do the work. My car had the IMS addressed proactively and still failed. In my discussion with Jake last night, he shared that how it's installed, and by whom, is critical.

Quotes source post: 11993455

Yes, absolutely. I can afford a 2k$ repair but 20 000$ would put me in a really bad spot since I still owe 10 000$ on the car loan.. I haven't read the whole thread but do you know if the failure was due to the part itself or a mistake at install? Was it a LN part? My mechanic has done a bunch of these repairs with a great track record. He specializes in Porsches here in Montreal and will install a LN part. Shop name is Rombotis Tuning.

Quotes source post: 11994953

Lets make it clear that at this time nothing points to the failure of the IMS bearing. The symptoms of this owner's failure are not characteristic with IMSB failure, and after speaking with him last night about the details of the failure, it sounds like some other failure has occurred. He agrees at this point, until we carry out a post- mortem, no one will know. And its not the installation that concerns me, its the pre- qualification that concerns me most. So far this year we have already found issues with 20% of the engines that we could have retrofitted, and due to those we have not qualified the engines for retrofit. Had we not carried out the pre- inspection to qualify these engines, that would have been several more potential liabilities. We have Certified a select few installers for a very, very good reason. They must abide by a code of conduct and log their every movement. If they make a bad judgement call, just once, they lose Certification immediately.

man... the more i read about these cars the more paranoid I get... So should i get the retrofit done or not? Car has 80 000km, C2 2002.

Quotes source post: 11995517

I woul do it. Most likely you'd never have needed it, but you're hedging agaist a very unlikely but costly failure. Don't let the paranoia get to you. If you're going to be too paranoid to drive the car like it's meant to be driven or to enjoy it, then why own the car? I really think those of us who have had engine failures are the unlucky few, but we're probably just a very visible minorty. Most 996 owners are too busy out on the roads driving to post online about having gone another day without any troubles!

Plus the minute posted that hey my car is running great is just when the car will turn on you and fall apart the very next day. So we don't dare speak of it!!

Mbmoto IMS bearing breakage has been calculated for single row to be less than 10% of M96 vehicles.Other designs are substantially less. Your advice regarding using a roller bearing for the IMS is contrary to the conventional wisdom here. There are several threads including one with "ED" an ex-Timken Engineer advising against it. Ditto Jake Raby - and he even has a roller bearing IMS patent! The roller bearing is not designed to take a thrust load.That is just part of the problem. Do you have any new evidence to support your IMS roller bearing advice? We're all ears.

Jake Raby and Charles Navarro may be interested in your proof of the failures(plural!) of their IMS bearing. "I've seen damaged single row LN bearings, whereas I haven't seen/heard of any roller bearing failures installed in IMS shafts in Porsches. Even if shops without "certificates" install them. " Can you help us understand the LN failures you have seen ? Specifically ,what symptoms and actual damage did the LN IMS bearings show. It may help many of us benefit from the European experience you write about. Thanks for the news. The consensus here is the LN product is as close to Faultless(that is a pun for the insiders !) as anyone could reasonably expect.

Quotes source post: 11996445

The motive behind this post is clear. That said, no other IMS Retrofit product has seen 20,000 installations. IF others can validate their product well enough to major distributors to carry them, and if they ever sell 20,000 units, they'll have a handful of failures as well. My facility has installed more than 400 IMS Retrofits, including the first one ever. This is over double what anyone else has installed. To date we've not had a single failure, and that's over an 8 year period. Those are facts.

For those of us who only know your company by the widespread Craigslist ads you place in the "Auto Parts for sale by Owner" section(instead of your local Dealer section) - for used M96 engines , here is a link: http://www.mbmotorsportsrepair.com/

1. Do you know for sure this is an LN ceramic bearing? The owner produced a receipt? I ask because anyone can buy a ceramic bearing from Ebay and pop it in. Pedro & others sells them too as part of a kit. 2.Do you know what caused the bearing pictured to fail ? Obviously it did fail - but why ? I have a failed LN Ceramic IMS bearing too . I am still in the process of rebuilding the entire engine entirely at my expense. It was not the LN product that caused it's failure . The P.O. mechanic caused it. 3. I have actively participated in other roller bearing threads because it interests me. But the threads die when the "thrust load" issue is raised. Do you have an answer to that fundamental limitation in the application of roller bearings for IMS use? Thrust washers and spherical bearings have already been raised(by me) and rejected by experts. I ask because a vendor who promotes his own work here and denigrates that of a competitor has an obligation of decency to prove his point or withdraw .There is an implied Hippocratic Oath issue - to do no harm to our gullible(?) members. That is why I am gently debating you. http://imsretrofit.com/roller-bearings/

Mbmotosp, How many thousands of installations has your unit seen to date. If you haven't had a failure, you haven't sold enough. That goes for me, too... 400+ installations haven't been enough, yet. Funny, no one ever compares anything to my IMS Solution. They only compare their product to the classic products, never the Single Row Pro, or IMS Solution. I have a patent issuing in 45 days. When that document is in hand, some things will change.

Thank you for the details. Very interesting. Being an old engineer ,may I help clarify some of your engineering terms to ensure we understand you properly ? "Race is just not strong enough for the thrust load, and that's what caused this failure. It's because of the thrust being only in one point/ball at a time, it's too much. Roller bearing has a bigger roll surface, and there are 11 of them. Ball bearing has only 8 ***** with smaller surface to hold the same thrust . " Do you really mean "Thrust" or Radial or just dynamic ? I ask because this is fundamental to the ball vs. roller debate. You may find it helpful to refer to the links below to clarify your terms. http://imsretrofit.com/roller-bearings/ http://www.timken.com/en-us/products...Pages/RIJ.aspx You have some interesting ideas so I don't want them to be lost just because of language. I did try to check out your company for other interesting ideas but it was difficult because your company name has changed 3 times over the past 12 months. If you have a good link to your other great ideas,please consider letting us know.

Don't worry about your English .This is an Engineering discussion not an English Literature examination. Many of us Americans speak grammatically poor English anyways.Just listen to anyone from the woods of Georgia ! I mean the USA Georgia -not the original one in Europe. Do let us us know all about your new oil pump design.It sounds exciting.Who would sell it to us ? The $70 European ceramic bearing sounds exciting - if it is the same specifications as LN. I have seen the correct size ceramic bearings on the Chinese equivalent of EBay but i doubt the quality matches .... I hope you enjoy reading the two links I gave you. They may help you with the difficult words: http://www.timken.com/en-us/products...Pages/RIJ.aspx http://imsretrofit.com/roller-bearings/

I have decided to take the time to address each of the statements by mbmotosp throughout this thread. Since I have taken the time to do this, I would only hope that they'll take the time to answer the questions that I will pose below, directly and without "spin". If its important enough for them to make comments, it should be important enough for them to answer questions pertaining to them. First off, at this point all we know about this user is a Rennlist username. We also know that this member has had 3 different company names in the last 9 months. These have been "Porsche- Land", "Forsche- Land" and now "Mbmotorsports". This member is obviously in business, yet is not a supporting sponsor of Rennlist. My company is a supporting member and my "Flat6 Innovations" username is still in good standing. I chose to abandon it for my posts here, as it keeps quarreling to a minimum. We also do not know this member's actual name. My name is either my username, or its in my signature line, everywhere I go. I find it odd that someone who is so vocal refuses to share his legal name. mbmotosp, what is your name? Now, let's address some statements, and opinions directly, and I'll ask a few questions of my own: The failure rate of the LN Classic Single Row is less than 1/2 of 1% over thousands of installs. Of those, only 2 failures occurred where it appeared the bearing was at fault. Your statement makes it sound like LN bearings fail frequently, which is not the case. Clarification: To date we haven't ever received a report of a failure of any dual row LN IMSB retrofit. Not one. If you can photo document this, and prove me wrong, please do so, but I will still say that it has not been reported. Again, your statement insinuates that LN dual row bearings do fail. Please quantify this statement. And has no inherent thrust control surfaces. You may also receive a Romanian bearing. The roller bearing IMSB was first developed, here in the USA by an individual on Washington State. I saw his component more than 4 years before I ever saw the Vertex arrangement, or the knockoffs of the Vertex arrangement. Americans have done a very good job developing the components to address the IMSB issues. To date components, processes and tools that address these issues were all first developed in the USA. The IMS Retrofit was a product of innovative, American ingenuity. Let's discuss where the vast majority of Porsche sales occur. Enough said. Perhaps this is due to not enough units being in circulation. I can't make the same statement that you can. Ok, so now you have insinuated that an IMS Solution Certified Installer has installed a retrofit component that has failed? This is absolutely, 100% false. I am the person who hand picks those from my classes to be invited into the Certified Installer Program. I am the person who administers the written and practical application evaluations to these installers. I am also the one that will perform an onsite evaluation of the shop and the staff, as well. To date, there has been zero reports of bearing failures existing from a Certified Installer. Please state the name of the Certified Installation shop that you are referencing, and please post the failed component, along with the work order. Ensure it has the Certification stamp, and then we'll cross reference your data to the database that governs all certified Installers, and know the date it was installed, and by whom and 4 photos of the retrofit process. Yes, this is a program with real administration. So kind of you to point that out here, so all the members that don't frequent the 997 board will see it. I'll go address your off base statements in that thread, next. I will say that in 2 years, lots of things can happen, to include other primary failures that can lead to IMSB failure. Here's the key letter in that statement "A"... Meaning a single ONE. I would think that with your vast experience, and hundreds of engines that you've built that you'd certainly see many more than ONE of these? Since you've seen only one, perhaps thats in line with the data that we hold, where .5% of LN bearings have failed in 8 years and over 20,000 installations, all over the world, with all sorts of installers, right down to a Midas Muffler shop! Again, you've seen one. I guess this isn't the epidemic that you'd like for it to be. So, maybe we agree that over the past 2 years, that maybe, just maybe the bearing you linked above could have been the fault of collateral damages? When LN has a failure of an IMSB and the owner exercises things through the proper channels, the engine, or components come to me. Of all of those I have seen only one that appeared to be the bearing's fault. The others clearly had other factors impacting the IMSB. One of them had a professional installer leave the snap ring out of the IMS, so the bearing was free to float around. Another was installed with an impact to tighten the center nut, and another had the nut fall off. Because you know that its the most superior, simplest, and most robust unit available. You also know that its what Porsche should have done. That said, you are targeting the Classic Single Row because its more along the price point of the unit that you are selling, and we both know that a guy thats in the market for a 200 buck IMSR product isn't interested in an 1,800.00 IMS Solution. No, they are not. Earlier in this thread you stated the LN dual row bearings also fail. Which patent? I have one issuing in less than 45 days and 3 more pending at the USPTO now. Average time spent to attain these are 33 months each, and that doesn't include the costs. The costs that would not be necessary if there weren't thief and Con- artists in this industry that can't use their own brain, and have to steal ideas from others. Oh, and not a chance in hell that its a roller bearing. That's too complex, has no inherent thrust control, and doesn't belong in one of my engines. And your idea is wrong. The patent that is issuing is for the IMS Solution. Finally after years of dealing with Patent Attorneys and Examiners at the USPTO the office actions are over and we will have the patent # in just a few days. This will make it the IMS Solution the only patented IMS Retrofit in the world today. There are others that advertise "patent pending", but research has proven that their provisional patents are either expired, and they never filed a real claim ($$) or that they never had a pending patent in the first place. The system will take care of those people. The patent process isn't easy, and isn't cheap, and it certainly isn't fast. In the time that its taken to receive this patent many shops have come and gone, and some of them weren't even working with water-cooled Porsche engines when the patent was filed.Those are facts. Where's the photo documentation? Are you sure that the outer race said this? Also, did you just say that you knowingly reuse shafts in your engines after they have experienced an IMSB failure? No, your engine had foreign object debris contaminating the oil system. This is what leads to erosion of the races during bearing failure. Again, incorrect. If you had done your homework you'd know that a 6204 ball bearing has 3 ***** loaded simultaneously, not just one. Increasing friction and reducing performance, along with increasing oil temperatures. Yes, I have the back to back data from the same engine fitted with EVERY IMSB Retrofit component available, from every source. You sold me your bearing to gather my data with. Remember, it was the one that you threw in the bag to beat and bang around with no packing material to separate the parts? Oh, they are all like that, so I guess you would have forgot mine. You might remember mine, because you pulled the instructions out; before you sent it, but thats right, none of them have instructions! You left the tool kit out of mine too, but thats right, you don't have one, I guess you use mine, like everyone else does. You want to talk about thrust when you believe a washer from the hardware store is an effective thrust deck? Changing the ***** to ceramic reduces friction, thereby reducing heat, meaning that less oil supply is necessary to cool and lubricate the bearing, as opposed to a conventional arrangement. As you stated earlier, the ***** always look perfect, thats what happens with silicon nitride. I do, and we've even used an Electron Microscope (at extreme costs per day) to study the surfaces of different bearings. First and foremost I have the back to back comparatives with data points from engine dyno, chassis dyno, street and track to support our products. If you want to lose 5HP, all you have to do is install a couple of different IMS bearings. Expense is what its all about. I spent 6 figures last year developing just two components, it costs what it cost. What magnification are your pupils? Do you know what you'll be looking at? What does your wife have to do with this? You forget to mention that the Single Row Pro is a dual row bearing that fits into the real estate of a single row shaft, when fitted with my Faultless Tool. Oh, and guess what, it costs the exact same amount as the Classic Single Row as of September of 2014. I carried out a study with 5,200 cold starts on the same engine, fitted with an IMS Solution. The UOA was perfect throughout and the unit was extracted every 1,000 starts to be measured and visually inspected. After 4,000 starts it finally got its first scratch. Not until the engine idled for 200 hours non stop did it receive its second scratch. Start up wear is nil due to the DLC coating, running clearances, and instantaneous oil delivery the IMS Solution has at start up. During development, start up wear was my #1 concern. Its a good solution 100% of the time, your opinion about start up doesn't matter and isn't true. If I were to agree with that statement, we'd both be wrong. No, you can't. That bearing might be a 6204, might be ceramic, but it isn't the LN version, doesn't come with a precision (ground) flange, and doesn't have the development into it that the LN product has. If you can get a 6204, why can't you get a 5204? Their might already be a patent pending on that, you might want to save your efforts before you waste too much time on it. It might already be used in my engines while the patent is pending. Since light travels faster than sound, some people appear bright until you hear them speak. Thats part of the problem. All of that said, I will apologize to the RL regulars for using up this bandwidth. There are times when incorrect information is much worse than no information.

Sign me up for an updated and improved oil pump please!

Currently booked through February 2016. I am proficient with countering non- sense posts, my reply took about 10 minutes to write. We'll see what the future holds. Sometimes you don't know, what you don't know.

Ummn, Maybe you can answer my questions, since obviously you are reading my statements? The 6 months is for REPAIRS to engines. The February 2016 dates are for reconstructions, and yes I have "tagged the line" for reconstructions until we get back to a 10 month backlog. I sold two months worth of engines in the first two weeks of this year alone, and several of those are 9a1 platform projects. We are being childish here. You don't like me, I don't like you. You engage the ignore function of this forum and so will I. We don't share customers and we don't share thoughts, and yes, everything that I do is complicated.

Yowza!!!!! Lost track of this thread whilst I was dealing with my own motor failure issues. The discourse between JR and mbmotosp is very interesting. Probably should have it's own thread that we can follow over time, as each has made statements about things that will occur during this coming year. It would be fascinating to see how things play out. Jake, the shippers pick up my blown engine on Wed. (Feb. 4th), so you should have it in time for Valentine's Day. (I usually just send flowers) If you recall, I had the LN IMSB installed. There are quite a few comments earlier in this thread about the importance of the quality of the install. The mechanic that I used is very experienced with these motors, but still.... I am now wondering if maybe an incorrect install caused the chain to skip, breaking the case. Do you think you will be able to determine if it was a bad install of the LN IMSB? I know your shop is jammed with projects. Any idea how long until we can expect an autopsy result? mbmotosp stated that he has available rebuilt low mileage engines with warranties. Wish I had known about that before. I think the engine I bought should be a good one, but zero warranty. Andrew, your thought processes are very parallel to what I went through with my motor failure. No absolute right or wrong decision. As Jake said earlier in this thread, a lot of it boils down to how much we love our cars. And, as you stated, we all have to keep the proper perspective. Yeah, it was (is) a huge financial hit to replace my motor. But, at least I ain't living in some crap hole like Afghanistan, begging my neighbor for a scoop of dried camel dung to heat my house (or whatever else they do with camel dung over there).

Martin how long before you open up shop in Australia?

Cuda, Yours will be an interesting teardown. While we are slammed, we will get the engine apart the same week that it arrives. This is one that I will disassemble personally, for research/ documentation purposes. Sometimes failures are so radical that we can't tell what happened first, other times its very clear. We never have warranty claims, so I contemplated a 3 year 36K warranty. The issue with that is the program is too appealing to the people who only shop for warranty.

You should do the 3 year warranty, ESPECIALLY since you get so few claims. From my reading, Raby engines are more expensive than others' for a reason. You'd sell even more engines because of the warranty ( that you wouldn't see back in the shop ). I'm missing your downside. You may not "respect" people who shop for warranty, but if they pay a premium for a warranty they'll never use, you win.

If you never have warranty claims but you are always swamped, why change something that works so well for you?

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Jake, How about saving it for class?

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Lon, I would, but I need the crankshaft and carrier from it in a very bad way. Thats exactly why I haven't done it. At the same time, since things don't break that we build, then I'd probably force others to increase their warranties, because they think they are our competitors. If I do that, and they have failures, well, it wouldn't take long for them to eliminate themselves. The difference is I have had the same company name since he beginning, with them, they just change names, and off they go again. Its kind of like knowing a potential buyer is a lawsuit happy kind of guy, and you refer him to a competitor. Its a double positive. I do that a lot. Its been fairly effective, too.

Quotes source post: 11998519

OK, sounds good. I'm thinking this should be an obvious one. The engine will turn over when manually cranked, so it seems to me that the only damage is the area of the chain impact to the case. Also, I didn't pull the oil filter. I assume you will do that and take a look at the pleats.

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World Domination!!

Butter? Who has the butter?

Competition is always good for consumers. I dream of a day that the M96 engines can be rebuilt by many shops with quality and reasonable price.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting a warranty. The fact that someone would lose respect for another person because they want a warranty is asinine and pretentious. And I'm from Newport Beach!

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If Jake Raby/Flat 6 Innovations doesn't, he could lose to the competition who does. I'm sure we've all heard the business catchphrase "change or die" . . . I agree with both statements. I'll take it one step further and say that I am looking forward to the day when we can get quality inexpensive aftermarket engine components which would allow us to easily build them ourselves. The market is certainly there. I'm not going to pick sides in this fight between Jake Raby and mbmotosp because I don't have a side. But I do agree with mbmotosp's perspective on this when he essentially said there isn't any magic. It's just a car engine. b-man

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Why are you giving Jake a hard time? Does not seem professional to me.

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If I get a chance on Monday next week, I'll give that a try and see what is to bee seen. Thanks for the tip. I think Jake will give an unbiased autopsy, though. I can't see what he has to lose by doing anything other than that.

3 ur 30,000 mile warranty would get me to move quicker!

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I read the whole thread and respectfully I still don't see why you are being unprofessional in this thread. Jake gave you his opinions and did not really say anything out of line or unprofessional. If you would stay on point then we could have a good conversation and debate.

We have Jake on one hand who has been around and working on the M96 for a long time and also has a long string of happy customers that rave over his motors. On the other we have a guy that claims to have done 100s of rebuilds, but no one seems to know of him other than he's changed his business name a few times for "legal reasons". I would love Jake to have some real competition, but from what I've seen here this guy ain't it. I agree that Jake does have a very good reason to not be honest when diagnosing a failure where a LN bearing is involved, but he has built a strong reputation of honesty and openness. So I have confidence that he'd give as accurate diagnoses as possible. As far as a warranty goes, yes it would be nice if he had one but even though he has had no issues yet I can still see it being a headache. There are some nasty (from the issuer's perspective) laws around warranties that puts a lot of burden on the issuer to prove the issue isn't covered or that it was caused by the user. Arguing over warranty claims also have a tendency to generate some bad blood and negative reviews that aren't really deserved. Just look at the crap dealers put up with from new car owners and then factor in that Jake would have to deal with people remotely which makes his job even harder. I'd like him to offer one, I think its a mark of standing behind your product, but I understand why he might not be interested and it won't change my willingness to buy one of his motors if ours ever lets go.

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I am really enjoying this. I do not consider it wasted time, because knowledge and information are widespread within this thread. Thats part of the reason why I am skittish about extending the warranty period. Haste makes waste all too often, and I can't tell you how much I try to push people away at times. I try to send them other directions, and if they come back, that tells me that they really, really want what we create. Selling an engine at my level isn't a transaction, its a marriage between the owner and the provider. There's no chance for divorce, once that engine has my name on it, its there forever. Nothing will remove it. Due to this I have always made it a personal policy to never sell a customer an engine the first time that we talk. I won't accept a deposit, I won't accept a commitment, and I won't even draw up a proposal until the potential purchaser takes time to think over the entire big picture for at least a few days. I am doing this right now with the owner of a failed 9a1 engine who wanted to do all the paperwork yesterday and have the car shipped to us on Monday. I put the brakes on it all, and now it looks like he is deciding to sell the car. Thats the best thing that could have happened; because IF he decided to do that in the middle of my procedures, we would have had an issue. Further, No member of my staff has the authority to sell any engine to anyone, I carry out 100% of engine sales, because I want the reality to hit before the first dollar is removed from the wallet. The key to being successful in the engine business is to set your self up to always exceed the expectations of the purchaser, and to do it every single time. The key ingredient to that is to set real expectations, without sugar coating, be direct and don't put the spin on it. If someone asks me if my engine could fail, my direct and immediate answer is that yes, it could, and it will if improperly cared for. I will then, in most cases tell them that even if they do all the things right, and they go to the track, that the engine could still fail. I then tell them that I haven't had an on- track failure since 2007, and 85% of what we build goes to the track. Those are facts. If someone wants to be sold on something, they call the wrong guy when they get me on the line. I've had two warranty claims since the beginning of the program that required us getting the car back on site for a repair. I have had 3-4 more that were simple things, like a new flywheel going bad in 500 miles, a failed AOS that was replaced, and a leaky water pump. Under my warranty, which (currently) covers all internally lubricated components for 1 year (unlimited miles) from the day the vehicle is received, those ancillary items weren't covered. Guess what? I replaced them anyway, and the guy with the flywheel met me in the middle on the labor charges, while the others had the labor paid for by yours truly. I didn't have to do it, and no one made the parts good to me. I didn't care, because each of those customers were great to work with, and I took care of it for them. When things change is when someone becomes demanding; then, I won't do a damn thing outside my commitments. That commitment is a 1 page document with zero fine print, called the Raby Warranty. Here's the result of one of the two warranty claims that I've had. The other was very recent, and the owner just got his car back this week. His engine started out as a 3.6, in a 2003 C4S, we took it to a Stage I 3.8, it had a problem and now its a Stage II 4.0. The problem it had was a result of a failed catalytic converter that ran fuel trim through the roof and sent fuel intrusion into the crankcase. I didn't have to warranty that one, but I did anyway, and he got it back a lot stronger than it was. As a Stage I 3.8 the car made almost 300 WHP, as a Stage II 4.0 it put down 320HP. We didn't just up the bore, I changed the entire combination, by altering port flow volume, margins and compression ratio, along with camshaft lobe separation. I also added our swirl inducing modifications for the 101mm bore size. I believe he will have a very detailed testimonial as well, we'll wait to receive it! I even paid shipping to and from Louisiana for him, no question. He was a great purchaser and he was understanding and respectful concerning what happened. Here's his dyno plots of the two engine combinations, same car, same dyno, different combos. Stage I 3.8 Flat 6 Innovations Reconstruction, and Stage II 4.0 Reconstruction comparison. Same car, different combination. Now, both of these people whom I have referred to here are more than willing to speak to anyone regarding their entire experience. Just shoot me an email and I'll get the two of you together. You know, its funny. This guy has gone out of his way to try to kill my credibility, but every time he does it, he only makes himself look worse. Posting that link was something he believed would be damaging to me, but all it did was further prove the points I have made over and over about him. He won't answer direct questions, will not stay on topic and won't tactfully engage. All he says is that I over complicate things, charge too much and don't do anything special. He's made many comments that are borderline defamation, and a couple of statements he has made to others is slander. If I was the type that worked the Judicial system I'd pursue them. But I'm not. Anyone who opens a business and names it "Porsche- Land" has a serious misunderstanding of trademarks and doesn't respect them. Its kind of like knocked off components, that have been copied by two different people now, and the copycats are competing. No respect. When he changed the name to "Forsche- Land" he should have known they'd pin him for being "confusingly similar" to Porsche. I guess things work differently in Poland. Now quotes from gnat Since the beginning. When there were no other programs. Here's another one that just posted on our Facebook page with a review: I know of 3 engines that he has supplied. He has one pleased customer here on RL who could not wait for my program. One of the other engines that I mentioned is here at my facility now being dissected and blueprinted. Other than those I don't know of any others, maybe they are all in Polish Porsches. The funny thing is I never knew that the demand for Porsches was so high in Poland. A quick Google search found a whopping 4 Porsche dealerships in the entire country (their might be more, but thats all Google could find). Those dealerships must have some extreme volume! Well, there's a bombshell loaded right now. It will drop Feb 1, and it won;t be coming from me. Those who are strategist will love the way that we have done this one! If someone has the new Excellence, its already there in color. Ok, so now the ante has changed due to my integrity being challenged. Ltusler, We'll hold this engine to be torn down in the class that you and 20- others will be attending at my Training Facility 18-21 February. This way we'll be able to validate the M# from the poster's engine, and tear it down piece by piece in front of 20 "verifiers". This way we can post the pics and no one can challenge my integrity at all. When challenged I often times return fire with the biggest weapon I own. Ummn, we do have a warranty for any Reconstructed engine. The warranty is, and always has been 1 year unlimited miles, parts and labor. Yes, to buyers its always the vendors fault. To vendors its always the buyer's fault. I hate finger pointing exercises and don't engage in them with purchasers- at all. And guess what happens when the engine is 11.5 months old? It has a "problem" and needs to be replaced. People work the system. I have had a purchaser m,make up a fake symptom and misrepresent a warranty claim (aircooled Porsche engine a couple years ago) through his friend's shop. Come to find out they were going to split the profits that came out of my pocket, while using a customer's car in the shop to "document" what they had to "repair" on covered engine. Well, I googled their names and found that they were posting on each others FB page. I then found out that they were partners in a roofing company. Then guess what happened? I agreed to pay the claim, but the day they were doing the work guess what happened? I showed up at the front door of the shop and bursted their bubble. At that point they learned my philosophy. It did not end well for them, and the best part was, they thought that I was a customer. Again, I do offer a warranty. Now, standing behind your work isn't defined by a worthless piece of paper. Standing behind your work is when a guy that had you replace a cylinder head on his 2000 Carrera 5 years ago has an issue and you make it good, even when you don't have to. I paid to have his car shipped from Florida, I replaced the cylinder head, cleaned the entire cooling system, replaced several components that suffered collateral damage, and then I paid to ship it home to him. He was invoiced ZERO dollars, and he didn't have a warranty, and hadn't had a warranty in 4 years! He also never asked me to do the work, never insinuated that he was entitled to it, and he was great to work with. What happened to make it come back? well, at that time there was a single crack that occurred in cylinder heads that we didn't trust repairing. So, I thought I'd be smart and just give him another virgin head to decrease our liabilities and increase the chances of success. Guess what? In 5 years the "virgin" replacement head cracked too! The ironic part was that over that 5 year period we had developed the repair regimen for his crack in the old head, so we pulled his out of the storage area and repaired it. He ended up with his original head back on the engine 5 years later. His car went away and has been gone for 3 years now.Though I didn't invoice him, he sent me a check anyway after he received the car. His name is Mr. Scott and he'll be happy to explain this to anyone. Now, thats standing behind your work, and no, not a single damn piece of paper will take the place of business morals, and doing the right thing, even when you don't have to. If somebody is fair with me, I'll be fair with them. Screw me, act entitled, or get cocky, and you just signed yourself off. Now let's here from the man with many aliases: Pardon me fellas, but I am just about to get a little cocky here. I have been pushed by this disrespectful individual who has made multiple personal attacks toward me one too many times. Trust that I know, that I know better than you. You have proven that with your statements here, on other forums and your website. You brag on your site about how you'll patch up an engine by repairing just one cylinder of an engine, then slam LN for having more solid morals and requiring that all 6 be done to ensure another one of the other 5 doesn't fail in the future. Then last night you admittedly stated that you reuse IMS assemblies after they have had an IMSB failure. Thats just plain ridiculous, and most enthusiasts in this forum know better than that. You do it because its cheap, and cheap is what you are about. When a Porsche crest looks like a Kia emblem, you'll have the right mindset, till then, you are wasting your time, and the money of others who are trusting what you tell them. The reason why you will not engage with me in a proper debate is because you know that you lack the discipline and technical ability to do so in a manner that will not show how little you do know. Again. I am stating this firmly and without any consideration for your feelings, or what you think. You've asked for it, and I will deliver. Then you've been operating under a bridge somewhere, else others would know you. I have been doing this work all of my life as well. I built my first engine (VW T1) at the age of 8. It might have ran for 30 seconds before it seized, but at least the damn thing ran. I then got my first Porsche (914) at the age of 12 and I've owned at least one Porsche every day of my life since then. I had my first paying customer for an engine rebuild (914) at the age of 13. The funds from that rebuild went to the bank and opened the same damn checking account that one side of my business operates from today! Thats right, I was in business at 13, and have been every since, even building engines in my barracks room as a Marine and selling them at the Pomona Swap Meet. If we've both been in business so long, how come I get nothing when I google your name that has any substance? Looks like with all that experience and exposure you would have had at least some media coverage over the years, or an article posted about your work? Where are they? Don't you have at least just one? Post it, even if its in Polish. So do I... Guess what? Those don't count for me, and they don't count for you. I'd advise that you tell those people to post on your behalf on the forum, because right now none of this is looking positive for you. I'd start calling some back up, if I were you. Guess what? WHO CARES?!!! Last time I checked I was asking your permission for anything and I didn't give a single damn what you thought. Its not your place to pass judgment on me. Your opinion is as insignificant to me as your false competition is. Damn right I did and I stood by it, and I still do. We both know that the parts alone to properly outfit one of these engines over the long haul cost more than your entire engine does. If you don't like what I said, then maybe thats why I said it. I'd look you eyeball to eyeball and tell you the same things I have told you before, and that I am telling you now. I'd not care what you thought about it, either. Damn right. I am a hard charger that absolutely will fight to the death before quitting or giving up. Hello pot, meet kettle!! Really? You just said that? After coming into this thread and immediately insinuating that the LN IMSB is what failed, you actually just said that **I** should mind my own business? When were your comments called for? When have your comments about my prices being high and me ripping off customers ever been "on base"? Thats your perception, my friend... Thats right. Every OEM piston, rod, timing chain, valve, spring and etc is thrown away. I have measured this at 105# of scrap metal before. Ummn, how about you worrying less about me, and more about you. Last time I checked you were the underdog here and you know it. You have no idea what that crankshaft is going into. What if its going into my own car? What if I need it for a class? What if?????? Yeah, probably spark plugs and coil packs! You haven't learned that parts guys are name droppers? They ALWAYS will call someone up and brag about who else buys parts from them, whether they do or not! Also, if the parts guy called you up and was bragging about me buying from him, then he is upsetting his components based on my name. Funny, no one has ever told me that **you** buy parts from them. Maybe thats because you are insignificant at this point? Yes, probably. Further, I will state that I ONLY purchase components from those whom we distribute our products through. I'll find out who that sales person was, and he'll probably be looking for a job. I'll make sure to share this thread with his boss. And that my friend is one that will get you in hot water. You just stated that I have committed theft by deception when dealing with my customers. In other words, thats just a little bit of slander, unless you have proof of this, which you do not have, because it is not true. Every single engine that I build is governed by a 14 page, detail oriented proposal that states everything that will be used within the engine in regard to cores. Each and every engine is photo documented and all photos are shared with the purchaser to quantify exactly whats inside the engine. Ok, so now I'm a liar? Thats great. Where's your proof? I don't have to buy a new crankshaft from a dealer. Why the hell would I do that when a far superior 4340 billet unit thats USA made can be machined? You have no idea what parts I use, so you'd best leave this alone. Me?? I know you aren't my competition. We don't have prices that are within ten thousand dollars of each other. You have a 3 week backlog and I have a 1 year backlog. You build stock engines, and I haven't built one in 5 years. You repair one cylinder and I won't. You reuse stock cylinders and I refuse to use anything but genuine Nickies. You reuse IMS shaft assemblies and we manufacture new ones! I'll criticize your work and you won't like it. I won't care. BS. YOU started this whole thing. Good. You aren't supposed to like me. You are supposed to compete with me so hard that you wish to keep every morsel of food off the table that my family eats from. Thats business, and its hell. What, you just spent an entire post talking bad about me, and then you ridicule me and say that I am talking bad about other shops? That means that everything that you've been saying for two days is "unnecessary". Just like yours do. The only difference is you don't have classes, patents or products to sell that were your original art. Oh, BTW- you forgot to mention my book in there, its at the publisher and I'd appreciate it if you'd properly and completely complain about me next time without leaving things out. And now more: Nope, never have.. Why not 1 year? Earlier I provided actual accounts of my warranty service in action. Can you please validate yours with a document signed by a customer? Would that be asking too much? Hold on a minute. Why does the price matter to the warranty? Its either going to break or not. What you have just said is you are preparing engines that are compromised and therefore are limiting their warranty periods to protect yourself. I've never sold an engine on eBay. Again, you are complimenting yourself by assuming the title of my competitor, however you aren't my competitor. Yeah, I have referred at least two of them to you in the last 3 weeks or so. Thats all? You haven't learned that if you work twice as long per day than the normal person that you'll get 20 years of experience in 10? I'd say it has its pros and cons. I have been on forums since they were newsgroups and email lists, like started Rennlist. That was back in 95 and I have dealt with lots of people, but I've never had anyone insult me the way that you have. Maybe they will. But you'll still have to fight big brother, who has a hundred engines in circulation, ready for immediate delivery and with twice your warranty. Not to mention its offered by a real company that hasn't changed names once in 40 years. Its a competitor to Flat 6 Innovations too, but its good for the industry. This won't change anything at Flat 6. Our prices won't drop, and we'll keep doing what we've been doing. I might give a longer warranty, but if I do it will only be for those who bring us preemptive builds, to incentivize them to fill our build boards, rather than failures. We are so into 9a1 problems and 4.2 performance engines, and now with the new Turbo 4 cylinders on the horizon from Porsche and the new engine to be offered in the RS, we'll be busy taking apart brand new stuff, and making it better. Don't think we are moving away from the M96, I am just ecstatic about the future, because we have new things on the horizon that have more promise for the future than the M96 does long term. It'll take 5 more years for all the developments I have made for the M96 to be applied, anyway. Note to all: I have tried to be flexible with this person, but his personal attacks and statements have gone too far. I had plenty of things to tell him, and I took advantage of this thread to do so. Some of you may see this as unprofessional, but, put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself if you'd allow anyone to make those off base remarks toward you in an open, public forum without setting the record straight. I am who I am, and I was raised not to take any crap from any other man, no matter the circumstance.

Ah foo, so now I have to wait a couple more weeks for the autopsy results! Actually, it's sort of fun to know that the motor will go to a good use like this. Just remember, speak in reverent low tones around it. The motor died whilst granting noble service. You can even prop these photos up by it, as it was being hauled off by the field medic: .

Jake- Since you called out my specific post...just know i meant it would get me to move quicker on building my motor that ISNT damaged... As well, it was just a statement and not meant to get anyone jazzed up. You dont need to defend with me Jake. I am a fan and would buy from you because i am the guy that will spend more for quality. Its why two of my cars have your bearings. Its why my mechanic will only use your bearings. You are the authority on this stuff... And i only want the best. Same team...

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Never fear... It's normal around here to issue a Death CertificTe to an engine... I'll make certain that this one is treated respectfully.

Wow...You go Jake! That's truly a diatribe worthy of Colonel Nathan R Jessup!!!

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You want me on that wall...you need me on that wall!

I have been patiently tracking this thread and thought I would just share my experience with Jake. After acquiring my '02 Carrera with 28,000 miles I decided to do the preventative package 2 that included the IMS Solution. Due to the tough winter we had last year there was a delay in getting the car back. Truckers were avoiding coming my way and swinging south. Jake personally reached out to me on several occasions with solutions. One was for him to personally drive it to my doorstep and fly back home! It didn't come to that, but what he insisted on doing was paying the freight back to me. I did not require nor expect that as the weather can not be controlled. Once I got the car back with all of the follow up pictures, paperwork, and old parts I was pleased with the entire process. Everything was in order as laid out on the website and by Jud. I had some questions about another part of the engine on a Saturday while looking underneath and Jake immediately responded with helpful information. Recently he helped me out with a separate issue. Am I a raving fan? Hell yes! I have shown him the same respect and professionalism that he has shown me on numerous occasions and he has far exceeded my expectations. I didn't get a long standing warranty, but what I did get was working with a person of integrity. Worth far more than a piece of paper as I know that I can get answers to questions that come up about the engine. I used to be in a business where we did the research and development and others would either wait for the patent to expire or would make slight changes and sell for less. That's great if you only want yesterday's technology, but I want to associate with people who are working on the future and that means you pay up for their services.

I think Jake has become my new personal hero. Watching Martin dig his own grave has been wildly entertaining! My son will be entering the Marine Corps this summer. If they foster the kind of gumption I see in Jake in my son, I will be a VERY proud father. I think this is a very important discussion as these engines age and more and more of them need attention. As a buyer, the LAST thing I would want is a Porsche with a half rebuild in it, ala Martin. That is going to do nothing but further reduce the value of these cars. Can I just find a deal on a roller and send it to flat6? For 30-35k all in, less than a used 997.1 a guy could have a monster Raby engine 996 that would last for years. I am starting to think that nothing less will do in my case. Quality costs money, always has, always will. Those who appreciate this will never question Flat6 costs, after all, you already passed on the Mustang or Corvette in the same price range right? Why on earth would you want a half rebuilt motor for your Porsche, even if it was half the money?

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I dream of the day when there is enough information (engine clearance) and oversizes parts that DIY can rebuild his engine in his garage at home. That day will come as more and more vendors are starting to sell the parts needed for this.

Re: Jake's warranty (sorry I don't want to try to clip out the relevant quote from my phone) Jake, I'm sorry for causing/adding confusion. I was under the impression there was none based on comment in this and other threads. I was aware, however, that you stand behind your work and have gone out of your way to take care of your customers. Your reputation is such that it doesn't matter (e.g. you are well known in the Porsche world), but that piece of paper does tell people who are unfamiliar with a vendor that they have some confidence in their own work. I do agree, however, that the real measure is the actions when there is a problem and not the paper itself. A 10 year warranty that is nitpicked and argued over is just as useful as no warranty at all. Like I said, you having the paper or not doesn't change what I'll do if the time comes. Its your reputation that sealed the deal a long time ago. Honestly I'd love to talk to you about a preventative job, but while I can justify the cost of a rebuild/replacement, fixing something that isn't broke is harder to justify. Maybe if she gets off her *** and starts tracking it regularly like shes been talking about for 15 years

Lord.....now this has migrated to the 997 guys. https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...o-a-997-a.html

"Raby does it too, he even purchased crank case from me on ebay in 2014 probably not knowing it was me. His wife called my wife, and finalized the purchase - that's a fact." Ha!! Hell no, that's NOT a fact! That was not my wife, it was my long time employee who sources cores! My wife owns an accounting firm, she doesn't have anything to do with my business except accounting tasks... And she wears the driving summit around here, too. Yes, we knew it was you, just like when we bought one of your IMS fixes to size up... And just like when we bought one of your engines to tear apart. For the hell of it. But you didn't know that was me, even though you talked to me. Why do you keep bringing up reusing a crankshaft? Who cares if the build sheet calls for it? My billet crank is always an option unless the engine is a Stage III and it comes with the billet crank as standard. It costs what it costs. Have you considered rebuilding Kia engines?

You two need to get a room...

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No they don't. If you know how to rebuild an engine, this discussion is very valuable.

When my daughters start acting like this I recommend Pamprin.

Check back at around 0300 EST for my detailed replies. BTW- a track engine doesn't have to be a race engine. The 85% majority of my purchasers use their cars for dual purpose DE/ AX vehicles mixed with street use. You are wrong again, Charles at LN bought that IMS thing from you and had it shipped to me.. I didn't just measure it up for size, it went into an engine where it was compared against the Vertex unit and a few others back to back on my engine dyno. Would you like me to show the results of that? Development. It's what I do. As for signing an engine and issuing it a serial number- damn right I do. It's done because it's a unique, hand built, reconstructed creation. I am not ashamed of it, and I have great pride in what I do. I guess your way has some benefits.

"No they don't. If you know how to rebuild an engine, this discussion is very valuable." Really? My point is that at some point this gets silly. I think we got there already.

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I agree. Personally, I find it fascinating to read such two divergent opinions. Both parties seems very knowledgeable. I'd just like to see the discussion in it's own thread, rather than piggy-backed onto this one. In my field, people may see me as coming off a bit strong, since I know my stuff very, very well. And, I've had more than one discussion with people that have greatly differing opinions than mine. Of course, I always say, they have a right to their own opinions, even if they are wrong.

Jake, Where is that rebuild book you've mentioned several times?

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In line at the publisher. I bet Martin buys one of the first copies released. Hell, I'll even sign one for him, with love... Oh, I didn't need the engine. It was bought like several others just to see what lurks inside. That's the problem with making them too cheap, anyone can buy one.

Is it just me or just it seem strangely coincidental that 14 pages into the discussion now Martin, your company also offers full documentation with pictures, a close personal relationship with buyers, fully sleeved engine blocks and a bunch of other things Mr. Raby mentioned... so suddenly similar. Yet, you have engines on the shelf and sell them on ebay? Interesting contradiction of your own there sir. Personally Martin, I am not buying it. You have called Raby a liar over and over and over. I am reading all of the same text and yet do not find myself concluding the same. It sure looks to me like you have completely changed your tune since the discussion started, other than being antagonistic without and substance. Is it your honest contention Martin that you can produce an engine as good as a Flat6 reconstruction for half the money? I haven't seen any evidence to support your engines being nearly as well developed as Jakes, nor built to the same standards. It seems crazy to me that you choose to argue with him even though, I understand why you feel threatened by him.

I have to say competition is good for the consumer The more options there are for porsche rebuilds the better I am certain LN, MBmotostop and UFO all do good work

Martin Maybe I missed this, but do you have anyone on rennlist that has any of your parts or motors or bearings? We have heard from some of Jakes clients. Would love to hear from yours. Might even the playing field. I'm not trying to stoke the fire, but just really interested. If I missed this piece or some of your clients speaking up...I apologize.

Here's a question...if one of your customers required you to use an LN bearing...would you use or turn them away?

I'm the guy who swapped out the 2.7 L engine to a 3.6 L 997 in my '03 Boxster. Martin at MB Motorsports did the engine work on the 2.7L and it ran like a clock, so when I decided to upgrade to more serious performance, Martin was my only choice for the project. He had just completed rebuilding a 2006 3.6L 997 and I asked if he could swap it into my car. I worked with Martin for about two months, and he took me step-by-step through the process. I talked about this in my post in 986 Forum "Check out my stealth 997". The project could have easily cost me 2x more from a retail shop, but what for? Martin's a unique guy, methodical and thorough in his work and humble. I trusted all his recommendations and the performance of this unique car has proved that out. I had a conversation with the chief mechanic with over 30 years at one of Chicago's leading Porsche dealers and he told me that mine was the coolest Boxster he's seen - so we both agreed on that! I'd recommend that anyone who wants quality engine work at a fair price contact Martin - he's a real find!

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Seeing that in print takes me back to a time when no one even considered doing more than a lifter job on these engines. Except us. Now, I totally agree with you on this, and my book will also add fuel to this fire, because its a simplified method of assembly. ur Faultless tools also add to this, and my Faultless wrist pin/ clip installation tool removes the single biggest risk in assembly of an M96- period. What I considered doing, since I have added an enthusiast only 4 day, hands on class to my training regimen would be to offer a package that includes the class, includes all the tools needed, and includes all the parts and processes to do the job right. The parts would not be the same as my builds, they would be much easier to assemble than those; these would be stock, and at best would be something between a stocker and a Stage 1 performance engine. What stops me from doing this is my hatred of selling parts. What makes me reconsider that is its another way to pull the guys looking for lower cost away from guys like Martin. If I were to do this, he'd have to fight big brother, who has dozens of engines in stock, and he'd have to fight the regular old guy at home that wants to get away with things cheaper. The Marine in me likes the sound of that. Please, whatever you do keep it from failing!My incentives for preemptive builds have never been this high. Preemptive jobs are simplified, can have absolute schedules and up front, 100% agreed to pricing that won't vary at all. If it fails, all thats out the window. If anyone asks me to use another product, I won't. I'll send that job to Martin. People come here for what is invented and developed here. They know all about us and what we do before they call. That said, I've only had one person ask for a retrofit with other components- ever. There's only one IMS Retrofit, and that term is Trade Marked by LN Engineering. I know Wally, he's attended my 4 day hands on M96 "102"class. He's a nice guy, sorry to hear that he's associated with you, because I'll never speak to him again. I don't know what he does for LN, but make no mistake that he's NEVER touched a pair of heads for one of my engines, and he never will. They you, sir, are a very poor businessman. Your overhead rate will eat into that profit number by at least 25%. You can't compare there.. I don't have standard engines, because what I create isn't on a core exchange basis, and none are shelf items. All of my engines feature full cradle to grave service; we get the car, extract engine, process, assemble and reinstall. The engine is then driven 120-200 miles and sees a day on the sync, that is IF ECU optimization isn't necessary. Every single engine that I complete is installed into the car, I do not do bench work at all, and won't ship an engine to anyone without the car. I have made two exceptions to this, for customers in Hong Kong and Russia. So, the 25K figure includes everything, right down to every drop of oil.. And engines under warranty receive free oil and oil filter while under warranty, as we mandate full adoption of my break in, and intermediate process, and that includes certain oils must be ran. Its Burger King, just call it the Whopper! I don't operate like this. People are buying my consultation and not just my engine. I build what they need, based on what I know and what I have experienced. I won't allow someone to make a poor choice, just because they want it. To me, they have to need it. So, you are going to let a guy who's a Dr. or Lawyer (you said you work with a lot of those) choose his own engine combination? He might not be able to recite the 4 strokes of a 4 stroke engine, but you'll let him select his head work. No, it won't. Ok, here we go... The factory manual calls for 35 hours to assemble a stock M96 engine. Let's say that it takes you that long for comparative purposes. If you are charging 6K for the labor, that means that you are charging 171 bucks an hour! Thats a pretty crazy rate if you are doing a bench job. . Ok, so now for the spin side of it... If you are charging 6K for 70 hrs work, thats 85 bucks an hour. People charge more than that for a tune up, you must not value your work very much. Let's get something clear. At my facility one pair of hands will do all of the things that you mentioned, as well as dynamically balance all components (Do you have a balancer? If not, how the hell are you making dynamic corrections?) as well as all other machine and blueprint work, except the work that LN does to every block that we touch. Here I have assemblers, machinist, installers and a Director Of Operations that acts as a Quality Assurance Representative. On top of that there's a 2 person team that tracks every step of every project as it moves through the 64 points on our spreadsheet thats a checklist to completion. One of those people only takes photos, logs them and posts them. I have employed the same set of checks and balances that I worked under as a Turbine Engine Technician, and Helicopter Mechanic while in the USMC to govern projects . If one person does something, another person checks that work and signs off on it at various stages of the project. We even have "torque verifiers" that will witness torques on rod bolts, head bolts and many other fasteners with the engine. Now, what you also need to know is the guy thats sitting here having fun with you doesn't build normal engines. I built the first one and the first dozen of each style, and I'll build any new combination, so I can log down the changes for the day when I teach my employee to do it my way. I build the engines that **I** want to build for customers and I do them one project at a time. The engines that I build are for R&D purposes generally, I am building a new 3.5 Stage III combo now thats going to turn over 9,000 RPM. Thats what I do on top of developing components. I trained every engine builder that I have working side by side with them. Its my rule that no employee builds and engine until he has been with my company 3 years. If I ever catch someone leave one bolt loose in that 3 years, he won't progress. You think I am a dick on the forum, try to work for me. My people love the way I do things, though, one has been here 18 years, all the others at lest 5 years, except an apprentice that I am training now. If someone makes it 3 weeks here, they'll usually be here as long as they want. You must have implemented that process today. Sounds like your engine is just like any other, it has nothing to set it apart from the others. Hell, even big brother thats assembling batches of engines marks every engine with a process number, and takes full credit for building the engine. There you go, challenging my integrity again. Damn right I built that engine at 8 and the only help I had was a drunk neighbor that knew how to adjust valves. I bought a broken push lawn mower with my allowance, then repaired it. Traded that for a Snapper riding mower with a and tranny. Fixed that and traded it for a 1970 Beetle by adding 50 bucks to the trade. Living in the middle of no where I had lots of room to do whatever, and I drove the VW around jumping terraces in the pasture until I busted the front end.. Then I repaired that, and busted the oil cooler, ran it out of oil and it blew up. Thats when I built the engine. Took me 7 tries and almost a year to make it run long enough to amount to anything. My dad bought parts, then we found a guy that had 80 engines in a barn and about 10 cars, one of which was a 914.. By the time I was 18 I had an 80 car VW junkyard of my own, and a dozen 914s, and even an old 912. No child labor to it.. My dad never had a shop, I worked in a barn with a dirt floor, on top of an old chest type freezer. I ran an extension cord 100 yards to my parents house and hung a broken lamp over a rafter so I could see. On one side of the barn were pigs. My dad was a banker, not a mechanical person at all, but he would match every dollar I would make with another to help me buy cars or parts. I'd buy cars, fix them and sell them, and yes, my name was on the checkbook. Hold on just a damn minute. What way do I act? FYI- My mother died when I was 14 and my dad took it upon himself to ensure I'd be successful. Before he died 5 years ago he was talking to people all over the world, helping me sell them engines, and he remembered the very first one. I still have the car and I am still on the same piece of property, and that old barn is still here. I don't want you to respect me. I want you to hate me. That makes it easier to stay motivated to counter your every move. Who gives a damn what you respect? As far as I am concerned you haven't accomplished anything in this industry. Now, I know what its like to be a newbie and I know what its like to pay your dues. I was a newbie and I paid mine, and they were painful. You deserve to fight the same damn battle that I did. Maybe you'll make it, maybe you won't. No, its documentation. Its being able to track that engine forever. Its being able to walk amongst a field full of Porsches and pick my engine out of the crowd. Morevoer, its business. Wel what a novel concept! Yeah, give the guy that doesn't know the difference between a crankshaft and a driveshaft the ability to pick his own poison. That way its not your fault when it breaks. I don't. They get what my combination calls for. If that combination requires the use of their crankshaft, and it suffered a failure, or collateral damage, then I make the decision as to which way the project will go. As the professional, thats my responsibility. Sometimes the crank might be used, and sometimes its not. Where the hell have I said that I NEVER reuse a crankshaft? I haven't. Now you are the liar. Makes me wonder where those come from in such high volume. Looks to me like they'd be scattered to bits just like the USA engines. Is Poland on a different planet? So what if I did, again if my name came up he was using it to upset to you. Amazing, this is EXACTLY what you did earlier when you said that Wally Werner does your heads "and he also does them for LN". Yeah, stepped on your dick that time, didn't you? That person's job is to buy cores up and hoard them, so we can keep them away from the other guys. He who is in control of the cores is in control of the industry. Whether they are used for our engines, or not is irrelevant. I purchased 80 engine cores from February 1 2014, until September of 2014. Thats ok, I took a whole 5 ton military truck and trailer load to the scrap yard last week. 19 pallets worth. I create my own market. Its different from yours, whether you want it to be, or not.. No need. I have the top of your line 5 feet from me right now. Thats after it took two hours to keep the bearing cage from contacting the flange and not lock the engine up. Bull****. I just assisted with another initiative that is the largest thing to ever hit this industry, and its not my program. Now, if I did want to dominate, and crush people like **** ants, what business is that of yours. I am a Marine, I was bred to be an overbearing son of a bitch. I work overtime, at overspeed to create overkill, and I don't give a damn if thats ok with you, or not. Good luck with that. You might want to hire a consultant. Ok big boy. I'll take you up on that. Ship it to: Raby Engine Development 47 Raby Drive Cleveland GA 30528 I'll see the differences in the engine that you want me to look at in comparison to the engine that you had no idea I'd be looking at. Do you mind if I run it till it fails, to see what breaks first? Damn, maybe I won't have to buy this one. Sounds like you might need a trade Lawyer to make sure all those Ts are dotted and Is are crossed. Don't get that schmuck that allowed you to name the business Porsche Land, he has his head up his ***. Not me, my latest business broke even in 4 months and 6 months later had produced double. You might want to export those to Germany and have the last few bolts installed, then export those to the USA. Here Poland doesn't have a very good reputation for quality. I'd hate to see your initiative fail. Damn, by the end of the year you'll have your own container ship. Maybe she should have a little better situational awareness. With money. I thought about sending you a box full of Monopoly money, but I didn't want to **** you off. The last person I was a fraud of had stars on his collar and was inspecting my rifle, his inspection dictated whether or not I'd leave Parris Island as a Marine. Ok, I'll take you up on that. I need a 3.8 block, crank and carrier now. Really? Thats the only one, huh.... Ok. No you don't. Hell, I'm not defending a damn thing. As far as I am concerned my team is on the offense and has been the entire time. No, it shows them how forward I think and how serious I am. There was also a secondary reason for the purchase, because maybe, just maybe someone else wanted to see what was inside that engine. Wait!! You've been saying my work is bad for days, so what if that is what I was doing (its not- I don't have to), because its what you are doing to me. On top of calling me a liar 543 times. No it wasn't that low. It didn't matter to me what it cost to purchase, its only money and I'll make more. The cost of understanding the enemy is what it takes to win the war. "tipped the wrong person"? what did I put a dollar bill under your G string or something? Thats funny. Your invoice ended up in the bathroom. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong Nothing was conveyed as a "used and previously rebuilt engine" to us with this one. The other day we stopped by to pick up some parts and your place was all cleared out. Someone that was walking by said you were packing up and heading to Florida. Glad he took care of you, but the engine thats being referred to here isn't a 2.7. Now, as I have taken the time to write this post I received an email back from Charles at LN. I had told him that his name was mentioned in this thread and that Martin was claiming to have Wally do heads for him. Here's Charles' reply as a copy and past from that email:I already talked to him about it. "Last time this guy popped up Wally saw it, and said that was it. He will never do any work for him again. He has a set of his heads there that have been there months and he won't do them. Taken care of, so whatever he's saying, he's full of it, and putting words in Wally's mouth. Charles Navarro LN Engineering http://www.LNengineering.com" So, looks like you might want to talk to Wally about that. Looks like you might need a new head guy, or something. Might want to import some heads from Poland, too. Charles also said that Wally hasn't done a pair of heads for LN in 6 months and the last two sets he did was for the LN "Der Schnitzelwagen" VW Type 3 Squareback that runs in the 24 hours of lemons. Also, you might want to consider the impacts of shipping all these ROW engines to the USA and what will happen if they don't pass smog in some states. All of that said, this has been a lot of fun for me. The guy still hasn't answered a single one of my questions, but I have answered every single one of his. He jumps to wild conclusions, thinks my Wife is an employee thats been here for 15 years, and he's overly concerned that I am buying used crankshafts. For this thread to die, one of us will have to say enough is enough. I don't even care if he answers my questions or not at this point, and now it looks like he needs a new cylinder head provider, too. So Martin, when is my research engine showing up, and what kind of deal are you giving me on that 3.8 core you promised me. I'll have someone stop y and pick that stuff up, or you can swing it by on your way to Florida, beware of the dog, and the Sniper. You might want to call first.

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Sad. Porsche community, THIS is your claimed "top mechanic"? PMS galore and extreme insecurity. Unreal.

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Hey, butt out ! There's a war going on here, and I for one am putting my $$$ on Colonel Jessup ! Hey Martin, I think it's time to throw in the towel...

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I LOVE IT! Does the truth scare you that much?

I've been on the sidelines, just watching this discussion go south. There are plenty of professionals in this industry, some of which are our competitors that we happily co-exist with and from time to time, even send customers each others way. The Porsche community is very tight knit and everyone knows everybody. I started LN in college as a project and though mentoring from people like Jake I have worked my way from the ground up, respectful and mindful of others contributions and successes in the industry. Key word is RESPECT. Even beyond the scope of this thread, you can see why Jake so vigorously defends what he has built and also of me and my company, since he's had an integral part in seeing LN become what it is today, not as a business partner (which he's not affiliated with LN in any way other than as a paying customer), but as a friend. And rightfully so. There are those who are keen to jump on the bandwagon, supported by those who say competition is good for the consumer, and that's fine, but look at their tactics, attacking our products and processes without provocation and without substantiation for their claims. I say let the industry speak for itself. With IMS bearings, LN's IMS Retrofit is synonymous with the solution to the IMS problem and is the most accepted solution distributed worldwide by all the major parts wholesalers. That's why we also get blocks shipped to us from Germany and Australasia on a regular basis for Nickies. Why would one of the largest parts distributors choose to align themselves with LN Engineering for Nickies cylinders and IMS Retrofit bearings for their crate engine program if it wasn't the best solution, regardless of cost? Remember, cutting corners is what got us here in the first place.

Charles brings up very good points. Its important that everyone understands the provocation that occurred well before this thread, and has occurred both online and offline. It has occurred in phone conversations with potential customers, as well. Martin can do what he wants and offer what he wants. He can build an engine in whatever manner he pleases and charge whatever he wants for that. As Charles states we have dozen upon dozens of other customers who build engines and do not have the animosity about my program that Martin does. Lets remember that all of my developments that LN distributes are aimed toward other shops, not DIY initiatives. This means that outside of my own use, there are things that I am developing, and LN is selling, that go into the hands of others that also build engines. They don't have these problems with us, they don't target us, and they don't care what we charge or what we do. If anything, they want to learn from us and they want to do the things that we've proven to work. They don't want to cut corners. Further let's remember who attend my classes every year. Until this year I haven't had any enthusiast specific classes and I have averaged seeing around 1300 technicians per year between the WTI Expo, WTI Engine Mechanical Classes, and my own hands on classes here at my facility. The people attending these classes are professionals. They are building engines in their shops and some of them are attending just so they can also enter the engine building arena. I began these classes in 2008 and from day one I have taken pride in helping people be better engine builders. These people are instructed to have the proper mind set, and have increased attention to detail, along with situational awareness. Fact: All of my major competitors (people building similarly priced and outfitted engines) have attended my classes, and they were welcomed there. If I wanted world domination, I wouldn't develop components for LN, and I wouldn't instruct classes, and I wouldn't have written a book on the topic of M96 Engine Building. Now, throughout this entire thread I have been personally attacked, called a liar, called a thief and have been told that my prices are too expensive for the end result. I have directly dealt with those false claims and have done so in the same manner that I would have if Martin was 2' from me. If there are those here who believe that my style was too aggressive, then so be it. I don't believe in political correctness and when challenged I will posture myself in a manner to protect what I have built from the ground up, and gloves will be off. Thats who I am, and thats who I will be. If you want to learn how to build the best engine possible, and if you want to use the best components and simplest approaches, then I will help you with that. I do it everyday and have started a technical assistance program just for technicians and engine builders who are dealing with ALL Porsche engines. I will be your best friend, or your worst enemy, its all depending on You and your approach. You can be my competitor all day long, just don't target me or lie about me. Don't make up stories and don't be concerned with what I do. Thats all.

I've watched this thread over the past days. I have seen a no name mechanic attack a well known engine builder.......said engine builder responds.....no name mechanic revises his content over several posts to make him appear to us as a superior shop to Flat6 when in fact every post just lowers his own integrity. That said, I'm a past and current Raby customer. I went to him for an engine that this other guy could only dream of. Sure there is a place for this guy's type of work but there is no substitute for a Raby build.

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Pete. Thanks for this. I remember when you and I didn't see eye to eye here, before you were a customer. I guess I can convert anyone!

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Yup....our dealings changed my perception and mind...completely Now hurry up on my car thank god Feb is a short Month!

Folks, I have banned mbmotosp. Why? Because he was previously banned by John D. for advertising here without being a site sponsor. While it may have been interesting reading the combative posts - Jake is an ex-Marine so it isn't surprising he is combative the thread has turned into mbmotosp advertising his business - again. Regards,

Awww, foo. And I just went out to get more popcorn.

DELETE

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Is post #197 the longest anyone ever posted on RL?

I didn't know that he'd been banned in the past.. Help me watch other forums guys, I am sure that Martin will be vindictive as hell after this. He'll think that I had a part of the ban, but I haven't said a word to anyone. Yep, combative is in my blood, but only if someone flips the switch :-)

For the record, this is how Martin advertises his ex-European used engines and rebuilt engines around the country on CraigsList. This isn't an endorsement ,just a public record fyi NAYYY "06-08 Porsche Cayman S 3.4L freshly rebuilt engine. Both cylinder heads have been resurfaced and checked for pressure, all main and rod, and crank shaft bearings are new, new gaskets, new oil and filter. Has been inspected and tested. Engine is in perfect condition, just install and drive! We are an independent Porsche repair shop located in Schaumburg, IL, specializing in engine repair and rebuilding. We repair at least one Porsche engine per week, we guarantee our work, and give you 6 months warranty for this engine, includes engine long block and labor only. All other parts around the engine are used and not covered under the warranty. ***Motor comes as shown in the pictures, air injection pump in not included. ***Core credit is available in the sum of $1,000-2,000, depending on your core condition. Shipping to US, Canada and Mexico is available for additional charge, cost depends on your location. Please visit our website for further details: www.mbmotorsportsrepair.com Payments are accepted in cash, certified funds or wire transfers. ***WE HAVE OTHER PORSCHE ENGINES AVAILABLE FOR SALE 2.5, 2.7, 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8L. IF WE DO NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC ENGINE READY FOR SALE, WE CAN ALWAYS REBUILD YOUR ENGINE. PLEASE CONTACT US FOR FURTHER DETAILS*** "

Better move quickly because he will probably have to change his business name again soon. Ma Benz will probably find as little humor in MB motorsports as Porsche did in Forsche land. I just do not understand budget "rebuilds".

Well at least you get "all main and rod, and crank shaft bearings", didn't know there are 3 types of bearings in the assembly.

In a fairly random order, this is how I spent my Friday off. She's all cleaned up and under cover & safety. On the way home from the shop. I got a little help. Safe and snug in an otherwise messy garage!

So here's where I stand with making a decision: - Very intrigued by the idea of building the car to 996 Spec car. In the long run, I think racing would be fun, but considering my previous track time is zero, this may be a pipe dream. - I'm looking into what I'd need to do to prep the car for mid-term storage. If I'm going to keep it, I'll probably wait until after the taxman takes his bite of my hide before making any commitments. - I haven't listed it for sale, but I'm listening to offers. So far they're better than expected from reading the site, but still not quite what it would take for me to sell, but close. She's still got a lot of value for me. - If I sold it, replacement options are going to be considered blasphemous. I'm looking closely at a new Cayman GTS, as it's more financially feasible than a new 911 and offers some security with the warranty. My wife is also pushing me toward an F-type, but I'm just not convinced. - Not sure I could handle being a 4 car household with only a 3 car garage, so for now, keeping the 996 and getting a new ride isn't a primary option. :-/

Sorry to hear about the engine woes. Beautiful car, and the darker color suits the aero kit best IMO. Although I didn't read every singe post (most of these go in many directions). If it were mine, I'd keep the car, wait in Raby's line and get it done, have a stellar motor. A positive is that you have a year to put the $ together...just a thought.

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Good point! He works on a schedule of 3 payments. One at time of deal, another halfway through the wait and the final due at the end. Makes it very manageable.

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Definitely a good point, althought not a huge factor in the decision.

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Yep. Anytime we are working on a 6+ month timeline, I use the 3 payment plan. Thats been the case since 2009, thats the last time we had a 6 month backlog, since then its been 9-14 months. The 3 payment plan works really well for everyone. In the proposal I set the schedule for all 3 payments, so everyone knows up front whats due, and when its due :-)

Just ran across this thread, Jake do not take much stock in the comments associated with Werner Machine. Mr Werner is a stand up guy who lives by the golden rule "If you don't have anything good to say don't say anything". He is very disappointed that his company has been dragged into this discussion.

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I never put any stock into the comments about Wally/ Werner Machine. BTW- Martin has been busy with trying to get distributors to carry his IMSB. He has already failed with two of them.

That's good of you. As for MB Motorsports I don't live by the golden rule. His whole shop is about the size of my break room and equipped as such. Just another guy who thinks he is in the business and most likely leave customers hanging when he moves on.

I hope I am wrong but it seems Martin/Scott whatever his name is this week - his ulterior motive in his posts was to drum up chatter in favor of his roller bearing IMSB. He duped Rennlisters into whipping up some interest but it backfired when we buried him with the truth. If he had been able to answer the technical objections to roller bearings with data on thrust load, heat load and oil pressure drop ,the discussion could have been factual and interesting. Instead, if anyone diligently searches about "roller+bearing IMSB" or similar, they will find this thread that condemns roller bearings for lack of technical data on the Porsche IMSB application. Please note that neither EPS nor Vertex(both vendors of roller bearing IMSB) offered any of the critical missing data.Their silence is a deafening condemnation of the roller bearing imho. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to read field experience of failure/success of roller bearing retrofits from Rennlisters.Probably should install and IMS Guardian quickly ?That would probably amuse Charles & Jake !

So I created a listing in the vehicle marketplace for the car yesterday. It's listed pretty high, but honestly, I've receivied some very fair offers, and I'm listing it for what it's worth to me. Probably lower. I'll say this. After 24 hours of having it listed, I'm a lot more convinced that I would prefer to hang on to the car. It's still listed in good faith, so if someone paid the asking price I would sell, but it would be a sad parting indeed. Any suggesting on how to prep the car for long term storage?

ditch the 996 and spend more time on your TT and road bikes... are you putting out 320 watts on your powertap?

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Ha! If you'd asked me a year ago, I'd tell you that 320W was right at my 20 min power. Today, after I knocked the dust off the bikes, I'd be happy to hold that for 1 minute. I have a few more bikes upstairs, and sadley, they're all dormant. With my new job and 2.5hrs a day of commuting, training just isn't an option any more. Plus, I'm pretty sure racing P-cars will be significantly cheaper. Wish I were joking on that...

Andrew- looked up your ad for the roller in the classifieds.....good luck with the sale! For $23K or so (10K for a replacement engine) somebody could have a very nice car! My heart is with you on this one.

Plus, I'm pretty sure racing P-cars will be significantly cheaper. Wish I were joking on that...[/QUOTE] for reals... i have a set of zipp 808/ 1080's and they are pretty much more expensive than a set of BBS LM's. at my peak i was able to do 320W for 5min, but at 138 lbs it was good power to weight much like our 996s. but now i pull an "IMS" type of failure at anything over 250W.

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Jeez, you two, get a velodrome.

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Pump up the tires to 45psi, remove the battery and since the engine is gone, nothing else really needs to be done.

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I have a half full tank of gas. Any need to drain it or put preservation fluid in it? Don't want to gunk up the fuel system.

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We didn't even get to talking about the best way to shave your legs!

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You should at least put in the fuel stabilizer and rock the car a bit to try distribute/mix with the gas in the tank, it's cheap insurance depends on how long those gas end up sitting in the tank.

So I'm desperately searching for an argument that would convince my wife that we should both keep the 996 as a track car and also get a new car for daily driving. So far, I've had little success. I have a few very strong leads on people interested in buying the car. I've also found a couple of stock engines that would be great options to put in the car. As much as I'd love to keep it, I've really started to like the idea of having a car that would be better suited for a daily driver. With my commute being in heavy traffic, an automatic that also has a few more interior creature comforts would make me much more likely to drive the car on a regular basis. Very tough decision right now.

^sounds like the old girl is on her way out^...

Sell it as-is and move on. Don't worry about the fuel, a full tank will not get much exposure to air and the fuel won't oxidize (unless it sits for a very, very, very long time). If you put a stabilizer in it, unless you trigger the pump, it will never get to the fuel lines anyways. If I was you, I would drain it and put it in a car that I'm going to use.

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I'm not going to go through the trouble to drain and store half a tank of fuel. At this point, I hope to either have it fixed or sold before I need to worry about fuel stability.

Quick update and a request for input: First, I'm keeping the car. After talking to some very interested buyers, who would have taken great care of the car, I realized that I would truly regret selling it. I'm going to repair the car and enjoy the hell out of driving it. Second, there's a 3.6L M96 engine from a similar '03 Carrera here in Houston for sale. There's a thread on it here . It's the same engine that Cuda originally was looking at putting in his car. I drove the car today and thought it both felt and sounded excellent. Maybe it's because I haven't driven mine in 2 months, but it felt better than I remember mine feeling. My very uneducated inspection also didn't reveal any concerns. My mechanic knows the mechanic parting out the car (Viking) and trusts his judgment. With all that said, I'm really at a loss on how to tell if this is a safe purchase or not. The impact was from the rear (initial impact right on read hood), although the damage to the engine compartment seems to be superficial. Are there any additional questions or checks I should conduct before making a deal? Air intake was obviously a big cracked and it's possible the oil inlet took some of the impact.

Hi Andrew...good to hear that you're headed towards resurrecting your beauty! My recommendations: 1. Get the code readout from the ECU on the motor you're thinking of buying and check it over (or have Mike, your mechanic, do it) to be sure it has no over-revs etc. Just like you'd do when performing a PPI on purchase of an entire car. 2. Have Mike do the typical PPI tests on the motor--leak-down, etc. If you want and he has the equipment have him pull the plugs and boroscope the cylinders. Ditto for dumping the oil and pulling the sump cover and oil filter for inspection. He'd be looking for evidence of metal particles, cylinder scoring, and so forth. 3. Ask for documentation evidencing the IMS replacement and confirm it was done with a bearing you're comfortable with (e.g. LN). If you do purchase the engine see if the seller will provide any sort of a warranty. Not a deal breaker but a possible negotiating point. Lastly, if you do purchase the motor attend to all the preventative maintenance items on it before installing it in your car: AOS, water pump, spark plugs, any dodgy rubber/plastic bits (e.g. oil filler tube). Those jobs are SO much easier with the engine out. Viking has an excellent reputation within the Lone Star PCA community so you'd be dealing with a stand-up guy should you buy this motor from him. Good luck!

There's also a newly rebuilt engine option for $8k that comes with 6 mo warranty. But it depends on how skeptical and biased you are. I won't get into it here as to not start anything.

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Thanks Rich. Viking has a great reputation and the seller has been very accomodating and helpful as well. I'll definitely have Michael go over it with a fine tooth comb once it's at the shop. Anything that can be addressed will be, before going into the car. I just don't think there's a reasonable way to get the engine to Michael's shop for a thorough inspection without making a deal with the seller first. If I were selling, I wouldn't ship my engine accross town unless I'd been paid! I have the service records, with a receipt showing IMS replacement by Viking. I may end up decideding to ship the engine off the Jake someday to get it worked on like yours, but for now I want to leave my options open as a Spec car! Andrew

Well, all the transactions are complete, or at leas initiated with checks in the mail. I've sold my engine block to Flat6Innovations and bought the new engine from Viking/Dayle here in Houston. I think it'll end up being the first week of April before the new engine will be at the shop and ready to put in, but at this point, what's a few more weeks of waiting. I've been a bit slower than Cuda in getting all this taken care of, but it will still only have been ~3.5 months between the engine failing and getting back on the road! The new engine has had the IMS addressed and we'll do a very detailed inspection before installing it. For those considering a 996 but scared about the engine failure talk, consider that even after having my engine die, I'm sticking with my 996 and a stock engine. And still plan on driving the car as much as possible and the limits as much as possible.

Andrew glad things worked out and you decided to keep her. In the end, I think it's still a bargain for what you're getting in the end and still a great value.

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I agree that it's a great value, but honestly, that's not the prime reason for keeping her. I test drove some 991s as a potential replacement, and as slick and impressive as they are, they just seemed to be missing something. If I sold my roller 996, I decided I'd just end up buying another 996 to replace it. Might as well keep mine and get her back on the road. I do think, in a year or two, I'll want to convert the 996 to more dedicated track duty and get a newer and more polished 911 for daily driving. Are there any rules about having too many p-cars?

Proper Number of P-cars = N+1, where "N" is the number of P-cars you currently own.

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I can tell you that 3 is still not enough.

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It's been over 45 days, anything changed?

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Yep, Patent issued last week. This makes the IMS Solution the only Patented IMS Retrofit technology; at least till my other two are granted :-)

Congrats Jake!

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Thanks! Not slowing down at all, have another to file this week!

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x2

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Thanks.. This took years to accomplish, mostly due to red tape. Glad to have one more accomplishment and one more thing off my plate.

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Any upcoming ideas/patents for the 991 yet?

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Damn right. Provisionals are already pending for two.

Well done and congrats. So that's all your comment in red was referring to then? I was expecting something completely different.

I tend to like being unpredictable. Makes the other guy have a hard time figuring you out.. Here's the sign that's in my engine room. Basically it says "Caution in discussions, enemy is listening"

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Congrats!

Well done on the patent... ausgezeichnet!!!

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Echoing the others, congrats! Also, my old motor left the shop yesterday on it's way to you. Please let me know what you find!!!

In other news, my car is running again, although I won't pick it up until tomorrow. There's still a long list of things I'm going to need to do in the next 3-4 months (mufflers, cats, mounts), but at least she'll be back on the road this week! A few pictures I took on Monday before the engine was put in the car:

Jake, congrats, it runs in your family.

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Sure does.... :-)

I've heard back from Jake, and it appears that the old engine had a IMS tensioner paddle failure. No other detail to share, but I thought it would be good to close this chapter out. I've been driving the car daily the past few weeks. It's great to have it back, even with my check engine light staring me down every day!

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Thanks for the update. Your IMSB was original, right?

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The bearing had supposedly been addressed a few years back.

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Glad the used engine route worked out pretty well for you. Your car just looks amazing! BTW, I see a trend lately that despite IMSB retrofit, the M96 engines keep failing for one reason or another. Good that now we have more engine options.

Congratulations Jake.

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

[QUOTE=AndrewMT996;12187366] A few pictures I took on Monday before the engine was put in the car: QUOTE] Finally, a great picture of where the AOS sits on the engine and its input/outputs. Thanks Andrew!

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That's for Jake's patent getting through. Jake Congrats! Like Cuda said: "Ausgezeichnet" und Viel Gl�k! OP: Congrats! I wish you the best.

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[QUOTE=JMLavoie;12262340] Man, I see now why the AOS is such a bitch to replace.

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[QUOTE=Rubik;12262434] Very glad I addressed it while the engine was out. Still a bit torn that I didn't do the Motorsports upgrade, but one thing at a time.

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You know I've seen that and I have been wondering what's the difference between the motor sport version and the regular version do you know?

Has 2 chambers and can control/hold about twice the volume of oil. Kind of a PITA to put on depending on your intake configuration.

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This Close enough visual representation.

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Well, ****!