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YOUR RESEARCHBest engine (re)builders in/near Germany?
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Install additional oil injection point & squirter
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Earlier in the document they also talk about having done an experiment together with Hartech where they installed an additional oil injection point & squirter for each cylinder.
Leading evidence: 'Install additional oil injection point & squirter' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'translation of hartech's document describing all the challenges' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Install additional oil injection point & squirter' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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translation of hartech's document describing all the challenges
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Suspected cause
That leads me to believe that the german document shared on their website is probably a translation of Hartech's document describing all the challenges with the M96/M97.
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Suspected cause
They also have a reputation for being eye-watering expensive, and if the truth be known, in the UK at least (and I suspect the US) there are several well regarded specialists that will re-build a stock or large capacity Mezger as well as, if not better than anything Manthey could build.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
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Suspected cause
I get so excited about what are probably the worst ideas
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Suggestion
Interesting that they recommend 10W-60 and even 20W-50 for M96/M97 engines!
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Install additional oil injection point & squirter
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported fixes
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Unsuccessful attempts
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Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Earlier in the document they also talk about having done an experiment together with Hartech where they installed an additional oil injection point & squirter for each cylinder.
Run 10w60 oil in m96/m97 engines (unless daily short-distance, in
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported fixes
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Unsuccessful attempts
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Discussions that contain suggestions
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
The article states that CarTronic has a strong preference to running 10W60 oil in M96/M97 engines (unless daily short-distance, in which case 5W-40 is fine, or constant race use, in which case 20W-50 is fine).
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
translation of hartech's document describing all the challenges
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
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Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
Discussions that suspect a cause
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0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
That leads me to believe that the german document shared on their website is probably a translation of Hartech's document describing all the challenges with the M96/M97.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suspected cause
They also have a reputation for being eye-watering expensive, and if the truth be known, in the UK at least (and I suspect the US) there are several well regarded specialists that will re-build a stock or large capacity Mezger as well as, if not better than anything Manthey could build.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
62 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
1 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Outcome without a verified action link
On the Subject of manthey or porsche classic: no doubt in my mind you get no improvements over stock as only OEM parts will be used and no modification to said parts thus no improvement either simply because both are 51% or 100% porsche owned
As a regular forum user, I know about some engine builders, and I'm sure I'd love one of Jake Raby / Flat Six Innovation's creations. But I'm rather far away (across the Atlantic), which would mean at very least huge additional costs and hassles. Can anyone recommend good 996 engine (re)builders in or near Germany?
Thanks!
Close as the crow flies. But crows don't have to deal with customs officials, tariffs, and taxes :-(
Though I know of Hartech and haven't ruled them out. But if I find an otherwise equally good solution this side of the channel, it would be much better. Could even make the difference between a rebuild making sense and not.
You should give Fabian Roock in Cologne a call. He used to operate a racing team and shop in Atlanta, Georgia before moving back to Germany and building NRWs biggest Porsche dealer. He definitely will know to guide you to trustworthy people/shops in Germany (not suggesting you should go to him or Porsche OEM for rebuild - but Fabian will know the scene better than anyone!).
i got to know him because I happened to buy a used 996 that his shop in Atlanta used to work on 10 years ago, including engine rebuild.
https://roocksport.com
[quote=rs10;18250086]As a regular forum user, I know about some engine builders, and I'm sure I'd love one of Jake Raby / Flat Six Innovation's creations. But I'm rather far away (across the Atlantic), which would mean at very least huge additional costs and hassles. Can anyone recommend good 996 engine (re)builders in or near Germany?
Thanks Jarno in Keil is respected by the Facebook Porsche 996,997, 987 engine builders forum. He's a moderator of this forum. I enjoy his posts
Please tell me you have reached out and at least asked Manthey.... I can not think there is a more qualified group to build your engine...anywhere.
If I lived in Germany, they would hav a restraining order (or German equivalent) on me in no time.
Asking for Manthey to do your 996 work, especially engine rebuild, is equivalent of asking some kind of famous US racing team or Porsche Racing US to do your rebuild here. It�s an expensive, selective and exclusive company and most people wouldn�t even think of them as an option. FSI is going to seem cheap compared to this.
By the way, Porsche owns a 51% controlling majority in Manthey Racing, so indirectly, you�re kind of just going the OEM Route at that point.
Yeah.. listen to Patrick and don’t try cause it’s too hard or whatever.
Or, do what I would do and don’t listen to Patrick. Manthey builds and services customer cars, are factory supported financially and live and test their products and services at the ring. Worst that can happen is they say no… pretty low consequence if you ask me and the upside is totally worth that price of admission.
Emphasis on price of admission� don�t get all antsy on me. I just stated facts (expensive, exclusive and Porsche owned). Sure asking doesn�t hurt plus the OP didn�t state anything about price or details of the rebuild.
also why would anybody do what you or I would do based on the limited information here.
I would do what I am saying cause it’s free and no risk and could lead to an engine rebuild by arguably the best group in the entirety of the world to do it.
Thats why.
I have, and they can do it, no doubt very well. I'm waiting to learn more, but from what I've heard so far I suspect they would merely return it to stock condition, rather than improving it as Hartech and Flat Six Innovations do - 996s without Metzger engines are not really their thing.
If I'm going to pay tons of money for a rebuild anyway, I wouldn't mind a bit more power, and also addressing some reliability issues, even if it costs a bit more.
Of course. No real value to me but if you could advise what they give you for options I would be really interested to know what they can do.
Did you tell them you would like the engine optimized for a particular characteristic (use case, output, reliability) during the rebuild process ?
[QUOTE=SealG996;18250239]
Do you know Jarno's user name on this forum? Or do you have any other info that might help me find him? (I searched the forum for "Jarno in Keil" (and Kiel) but nothing came up.)
Thanks!
I agree with the Jarno/Werksmotor recommendation in Germany . He seems to be the only one on that side of the pond who has figured out how to fit "wet" ductile iron sleeves" in m96 engines reliably..The fitting clearances/tolerances is critical.
I have seen many of his posts on the engine builders Facebook forum and his are always spot on...
Completely hazardous unsubstantiated guess here but I'd suppose a Manthey rebuild is in the same ballpark as an exclusive builder in the US - say FSI maybe? FSI engines are not cheap, if you have somehow not noticed.
Edit - and if you've got the coin and live in Germany? Why not just bring it back?
https://www.porsche.com/internationa...ion/stuttgart/
Even if I had the coin, "The specialists at the Porsche Classic Workshop in Stuttgart maintain all Porsche Classic models, from the 356 all the way up to the Porsche 911 (Type 993)."
Just to add that Skramovsky has figured wet Iron sleeves out too.
On the Subject of manthey or porsche classic: no doubt in my mind you get no improvements over stock as only OEM parts will be used and no modification to said parts thus no improvement either simply because both are 51% or 100% porsche owned
You know a lot about the process Manthey would use for a rebuild, thanks for sharing.
Please share your experience that led to this knowledge.
This one seems pretty stock
You Tube
This one too
https://www.excellence-mag.com/issue...-less-traveled
https://jzmporsche.com/news/manthey-...96-conversion/
Re. Manthey, while I'm still waiting to hear what they can do for me, they definitely do offer non-OE or OEM parts. And going to Manthey for a rebuild, or anything else is not like going to a famous US racing team (except perhaps if you ask them to build you a race car as fast as their own). I have two friends who are regular customers and have seen their price list for parts (and services?) for modifications. They are not a budget brand, but nor are their prices out of the range of other top brands. (I saw their price list/catalog several years ago, by the way, before Germany started making it harder to modify cars. Don't know how that has affected their business.)
Ok, I see what you're getting at. I'll rephrase with regards to manthey.
I dont have knowledge of the process of an engine rebuild by Manthey but what made you think I had?
Still, I have no doubt that on a non-Mezger M96 (or M97 for that matter) they will rebuild your engine to stock spec.
That's what I think based on never having heard, read or seen anything they did on the non-Mezger M96 engine (I'm not talking about modifications to other areas (chassis, aero, interior...) of the 996 non-Mezger engined Carrera, mind you).
Instead all their work has been on the gt3 versions of the 996.
If you happen to know differently, zbomb, I'd be interested to read about it.
Apart from all of the above we'll soon read about manthey's response here I presume.
Ummm.... when you said the below... Am I missing something. Just say you have no idea, you've never asked or talked to them. Just like I have no idea also having not asked or talked to them. But I like your declarative statements without knowledge.... Cool. If you can find a declarative statement where I said Manthey would do anything, please quote it.
I also really like Jarnos posts on facebook. They seem to show high credibility. i like the way he has made his inhouse sleeves work - acknowledged by JRaby as "the exception that proves the rule". Hartech, LN and Jarno were all far from Australia, as LN recently had the least supply chain issues recently, and offered what gains could come from 3.4 to 3.8. I went with them.
Yea supply chain issues suck and I think will linger on for some time with Diesel prices $5-$6 bucks a gallon now..
Good choice on the LN Nickies, they are the Creme De La Creme..
Well, I have to admire your dogged persistence in putting Manthey forward as a candidate for an M96 rebuild in Europe, alas I fear they�d be one of the least well equipped specialist companies to undertake such work.
Both the 996�s in the videos you�ve linked to are Mezger engined variants, and these were indeed Herr Manthey�s stock in trade in the years from 1999-2005, and as I understand it Olaf Manthey raced the 996 Cup cars and developed both them and the roadgoing 996 GT3 as a result of the burgeoning track day scene, at which many individuals choice of weapon was the 996 GT3 in all its guises.
For what it�s worth I owned a Manthey modified Mk 1 996 GT3 between 2011 and 2014, and a very fine car it was too.
However, whilst Manthey developed modifications for both the Mezger engined 996 and 997 cars and briefly dabbled with the Gen 1 987 Cayman too, I�m not aware of him or his company making any inroads into optimising the M96 & M97 engines, nor indeed developing any programs to address their many and varied mechanical weaknesses. Put simply, they were concentrating on building and improving the Mezger engined race cars, and any benefits the Mezger engined roads cars gained were as a result of �drip down� from those race car programs.
Thus the chances of them being in a position to build an optimised M96 with all the original weaknesses addressed in the manner of FSI in the US, or companies such as Hartech or Autofarm in the UK, is highly unlikely, because put bluntly, it�s not and never was their field of expertise.
They also have a reputation for being eye-watering expensive, and if the truth be known, in the UK at least (and I suspect the US) there are several well regarded specialists that will re-build a stock or large capacity Mezger as well as, if not better than anything Manthey could build. And if you want the ultimate German built big capacity Mezger, you�d be better off beating a path to RS Tuning.
https://rs-tuning.jimdo.com/about/
I have no doubt for some (and I suspect the big capacity Mk2 996 GT3 owner featured in one of the videos you�ve linked to, is one of them) the Manthey name has massive kudos attached to it, and they will be willing to pay the premium that�s required to acquire that kudos, but I�d rather visit the likes of Sharkwerks or one of several excellent UK specialists, than beat a path to Manthey�s door.
Judging by Manthey�s UK based dealers, Manthey now seem to be heavily focused on finessing the 991.1/991.2 and 992 chassis platforms for very wealthy clients looking to extract the last ounce of track performance from their cars, rather than re-engineering a 24 year old engine design that had more than its fair share of issues, and which Porsche AG have all but consigned to the history books.
If you�re adamant Manthey would be worthy of consideration when it comes to building an M96 that addresses all the original engine�s weaknesses, do drop them an email :
[email removed]
Good luck, and I look forward to hearing their response.
I know everyone is eager to hear what I heard from Manthey. Without providing further details re. what they can and cannot do, they said that they mostly do GT cars and they don't see that they are the right company for what I am looking for.
On their website, it looks like they may (or may not) work with M96 engines, though they probably haven't done many. I'll try to get in touch to find out. Do you know much about what kind of engines they build? (Street focused?, track focused?, etc., etc.)
Thanks!
Do you understand (written) German? Then this sheds some light on the differences between the two (with a clear favorite acc. to the author)
http://www.cartronic-motors.com/wp-c...April-2022.pdf
ETA: many claims are made without providing any argument that proves the claim and disproves any other claim.
It tries to sound very scientific IMHO but it is by no means that. Nothing wrong with their imperical proven solutions but it doesn't necessarily mean they have gotten all the cause(s) right.
Damn... this is one of the best documents on the M06/M97 I have (started) reading. Luckily I do speak German but this is even more informative than Jake Raby's brief youtube series (although there is obviously many more, deeper materials from his firm than just the youtube presence). Interesting that they recommend 10W-60 and even 20W-50 for M96/M97 engines! They also have a lot of good detail on different aftermarket upgrades to the oil and coolant system, i.e. the Hartech deep sump oil pan (those baffles look quite a bit different from the X51 style, and the aftermarket AOS on there too.).
I'm happy to help translate specific questions and portions, however, I am not aware of a tool that easily and accurately translates PDF files. I know google translate does a reasonable job on German-English translations, but I won't lie, this document has a ton of specific and technical language that will trip any auto-translator up. Unless you can get a gofundme together for an educated translator to handle this, the 120+ pages in this document will largely remain of value only to the German-speaking community.
The article states that CarTronic has a strong preference to running 10W60 oil in M96/M97 engines (unless daily short-distance, in which case 5W-40 is fine, or constant race use, in which case 20W-50 is fine). With regards to Cylinders, they are claiming their process (same as Hartech UK's process) is the best: Aluminum-based cylinders with a "galvanically" applied surface of NiSic. I believe this is just chemical talk for Nikasil. Also interesting is that they say they won't big-bore these Nikasil cylinders beyond 3.9 Liters, because in their view that requires a strengthening of the walls to be safe (they say 100mm or above requires wall strengthening). "Well balanced M96 engines bored to 3.9L deliver consistently 410 PS."
FYI - There is so much more good information in here on all the different issues with the M96 (not just the scoring but also the oil pressure drop that
@zbomb
and
@Porschetech3
have been observing. There is also a ton of stuff on existing remediation and upgrades that can be done to the engine to mitigate those. In fact, out of the 120+ pages a good 80 talk about all the different issues and potential solutions).
Yes, there is a big difference..
Aluminum /Nikasil is high tech, low friction, quicker heat transfer, higher cost. ie Creme De La Creme
Ductile Iron is old school dependable , less horsepower , slower heat transfer, less cost..But few can fit it to aluminum M96/7 engines reliably..
Yes, I have seen this with highly technical info even from Porsche themselves, translated to PCNA for technical documents. Seems even PCNA Translators will botch up technical info when the Translators are not as highly trained in engine tech as they are in Languages.. The old saying "it got lost in the translation" is a real thing...
Reading through the Cartronic Motorsport website/document, and reading some online messages, I'm pretty sure they send their engines (or at least used to send until Brexit) to Hartech in the UK to get the Alu liners installed.
In one of the Google reviews they mention they had issues with the shipping of a customer's engine because of challenges with Brexit and Covid..
That leads me to believe that the german document shared on their website is probably a translation of Hartech's document describing all the challenges with the M96/M97.
I've not requested the document from Hartech, so I can't compare directly. But for those that want to read it in English, and not struggle through a german version, I suggest to reach out to Baz :-)
Happy to be told otherwise if they are not the same document..
Gerrit
Just like LN, Hartech and Cartronic doesn't do their own plating in house. I believe that Hartech and Cartronic are both using Capricorn for their Nikasil plating. If you look at the Capricorn catalog, they show M96 block services including aluminum sleeving of blocks and plating. There was another outfit in Europe, Powerseal, that was offering plating, but I believe they are now defunct like all the smaller platers in the US and Canada. As environmental controls get more stringent, more and more platers are being pushed out of business.
No, the correct answers/translations is already known else there wouldn't be a reason to dispute the translations from Porsche. These mistakes are usually mentioned at Porsche Training Classes and we make the corrections to our Porsche Training Handbooks.
Otherwise we have to assume the translations are correct since they come through Porsche channels.
To my knowledge, their engine work consists of building turbo engines and, at least in the past, their own NA V8. Though if anyone knows that they rebuild M96 engines, pls do let the rest of us know!
they claim their oil sump system, which is the same as Hartech�s oil sump (developed together with Cartronic), prevents the problem of air being sucked into the system during high forces and turns �with very high probability�. There is quite a few pictures on page 89-91 of their oil sump design and it does look quite different from the usual X51 designs. It also talks about somehow physically or mechanically operated flaps that close during high forces and keep the oil around the snorkel. Lastly, it comes with a 25mm extension of the snorkel itself. There is no mention of �how well� it works, just that it �works.�
Earlier in the document they also talk about having done an experiment together with Hartech where they installed an additional oil injection point & squirter for each cylinder. It caused the engine to run at healthily lower oil temperatures due to less friction as well as higher overall oil pressure. That experiment apparently completely eradicated piston & lokasil issues, however, they say it�s cost prohibitive so they don�t offer it on their builds.
Tidbit of info on their racing sump in this post
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post14568578
The horizontal baffle has horizontal flaps that close off the part of the sump below the plate by means of the oil rushing past below the flap.
Below the horizontal baffle there are cast-in curvy 'ribs' at the forward end of their sump that channel oil under braking and cornering into the central area where the pump pick-up sits.
The pictures in the document don't show it but pictures on Hartech 's Facebook page do.
Nikasil is better, but instead of all the fancy magazine workshops. If I was in Germany I'd go to Jarno. He has specialist M96 repair knowledge over building feature cars. If the result was reliable, which most people believe Jarno's ductile iron sleeves work, so you can finish at the work shop and hit the autobahn.
Rebuild vs. small block?
I'm slowly making progress on figuring out what the various engine (re)builders can do for me. At the same time, I'm puzzling over another option. Porsche sells refurbished small blocks, which seems a significantly cheaper way to go than a performance and reliability enhancing rebuild by a top (re)builder. And super tempting though such an engine would be, the extra cost seems hard to justify.
What are everyone's thoughts on this?
So far, my thoughts and questions are ...
Is Porsche's refurbished small block as good and reliable as a brand new engine? (I suspect the IMS in the small block will be the one used in 2005MY 996s and in 997s (TBC), which would be an improvement.)
Tempting though the extra performance is, the car was not exactly crying out for a better engine. I love the stock engine. Yes, a higher rev limit (which I'm really not sure I'd choose with a rebuild) and more top end would be nice. A higher top speed would be nice too. (And yes, I know that's kind of silly.) But I'm not sure I'd gain much top speed, as enlarging the engine seems to add a lot more torque at medium revs than at high ones.
So I'm left with the biggest question: resale value (versus investment today). I don't plan to sell anytime soon, but this still matters.
I figure that if I have a no-name shop rebuild the engine and advertise the car with a rebuilt engine, the value will take a big hit and the car will be hard to sell. Make sense?
If I go with the small block, then I can advertise it with a new engine from Porsche or something like that. What happens to the resale value then? Better than the first option, yes, but compared to a car with its original engine?
And how about with an engine from one of the highly praised builders in this thread, with, say, a 10% boost in hp and a 20% boost in torque?
Any and all thoughts/suggestions/recommendations would be hugely appreciated!
I think the biggest argument against Porsche shortblock (new or refurbished) is that you�re just getting another Lokasil, bore scoring prone engine with same issues as previous one. It�s not even the performance argument but just pure reliability. There are other forum members who were going this route and to my knowledge have been happy with it. It certainly seems the cheapest option next to ductile iron sleeve based rebuild. Both of these options have their own pro�s and con�s with the pros being mostly about cost and the cons mostly about reliability. Also, if you�re thinking -refurbished- short block then you might as well think about buying a used engine, which comes with its own risks.
Either way, I�m in the same boat as you, and the more I spend time thinking about it, the more it seems to me the extra money is worth the extra quality from RND/FSI/EBS type folks� that is if you truly love your car and want to keep it for your kids to inherit it and love it too!
You pretty much hit the big points.
I wouldn't worry about borescoring with the factory small block program. All you gotta do is change your oil at least 2x a year and you will be light years ahead of most early 996 owners who changed it every 15k miles. Wonder why some cars suffered from bore scoring?
Small block is a viable option. Comes down to whether your want enhanced performance and durability beyond factory. I would prefer it. But many don't. Your call.
Apologies, I missed this response.
I was suggesting RS Tuning for their undoubted skill in building N/A and Turbocharged Mezger engines, and likewise Turbocharged aircooled engines.
Just like Manthey, they�d be the last company I�d take an M96 or M97 engine too. It�s not their field of expertise.
They build mainly race engines, though they do occasionally take on road car commissions, though as I understand it they are not an easy company to work with and their communication skills are poor. I�ve an English friend who lived in Germany for 12 years, he says this poor communication and general lack of flexibility in dealings with members of the public is not uncommon with small German specialist companies.
