996 Pricing Reality Check

This is my first post, so first let me say, nice to be here and thanks for all the info I have already gleaned from the forum. I started reading here because I thought I might try to find a good 928, I am a big guy and though that may be the only route to get a livable Porsche. But I had driven a few 911's in my youth and decided I wanted to try the 996 on for size before making a decision. Anyway I tested a 2003 C2 today and it fit perfectly once I was inside. The car I tested was excellent - only a little wear and one small tear in the interior - the exterior looks great - but it is a teal green (I like it, but I think a lot of people would pass on it). It is one owner with about 60k on it offered by the dealer who serviced it its whole life. It has had the IMS repair done. All looks good but but the price is a premium $31,000 - a little out of my target range, but doable. My question is - I know I am paying premium due to buying from a dealer, but he is offering a short warranty and has maintained the car and has all the history - no accidents or big problems. I am willing to pay for the little added peace of mind of a local known-history car, but is this getting into the unreasonable price range? I do see similar cars offered here for a little less, or even a lot less, but seem to have required a lot of work or mods that I am not likely interested in. Thanks in advance for any advice/opinions (though i already know how ugly those headlights are, but the way I adjusted the drivers seat I couldn't see them - so I was not bothered!)

Do you looooooooove THIS car? If not, you can beat that price by a lot for a well maintained car that you do absolutely love. So, start there. If the answer is no, then keep shopping.

I am getting ready to buy a 996, so I have been looking at the cost as well $31k IMHO is a little high, you can probably find a 997 for that money. Expect that a dealer wants to make at lease a few grand on the deal and many price them with $10k or more in the deal ( I sold cars for a while) @ 31k, the car should be perfect, no wear and certainly no tears in the seats Yes, having the IMS already done is nice, but it is no guarantee is was done correctly. Was it replaced before or after the bearing failed? Who did it and what bearing was used. If it was replaced after failure and the engine was not completely broken down and cleaned, you could have a ticking time bomb with lots of little bits of metal floating around. YMMV Are there service records with the car? I dont know the cost on a 996 for IMS replacement, but on a 986 its around $1500-$2000 if you just get it done. Many do it when they are doing a clutch replacement and then its adds a lot less Pricing may vary a bit depending where in the country you are. do a search on autotrader and cars.com and don't buy anything without having a PPI done

$30K for a 60K mile 996.2 is high. You should be able to do better. That is 40th anniversary price..

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+996.....true statement. FWIW, prices in SoCal are usually higher vs most other locations

Keep looking unless you can't live without that particular color and money does not really matter to you. Don't be afraid to look farther afield from your location, but insist on history. That car at that price should be perfect and even then it's a high price, but it's not perfect, so there you go. I paid much less than that for a car with about the same miles on the chassis but with a dealer installed factory replacement engine with almost no miles on it almost exactly two years ago and I am under no illusions that values have increased or that I got an unbelievably good deal. If I was in the market today and wanted to spend $30k I'd be looking at C4S's as well. Not sure if that helps but hopefully it does.

Definitely too much money for the mileage. There are plenty of 996.2 cars out there for sale with under 50k miles in mint condition for low to mid 20s. Don't let an original ims scare you. It's better to put the 2k aside and get it to a shop you trust and have it done yourself later.

31K is insane. If I had not purchased my 2000 996 this july I would have pounced on this bad boy.... http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/4702891966.html

When you talking dealer I assumed is a Porsche dealer? Color is important if you are not 100% happy with it you will regret it later if this is a Porsche dealer who will cover everything bumper to bumper and the car has been service there $31000 is not that crazy of a number

too expensive. shop around. IMS retrofit not required for all 996s.

Wow, thanks for all the info ! Regarding a few of the comments... This is a Porsche dealer in the NE, who has done all the work - but an independent specialty shop did the IMS upgrade. I do like the car a lot - "loved it" while driving it - but I am pretty flexible on things like color, so, no I can't say I love the color. The interior wear - all on the driver's door trim, console and shifter, the driver's seat look very good - does bug me more than anything. As I said, the big appeal to me is the history - local, dealer maintained and known and one owner. But it sounds like the price is just to high - I may consider offering $26,000 or so, but I got a feeling that they will try to stick very close to the asking. As for a 997 - I haven't really seen many in that range, but I should start looking, I suppose. Thanks

GDI I would offer 25k if you love it. There has to be a good amount of profit in their asking price. 997.1 are still slightly above the 30k, unless its a tip or very high miles; at least from what I can see.

Rule #1: Get the color you really want. Every time you get into or walk away from the car, you will see the color - it's the first and biggest thing you notice about any car. Teal green? Well, I guess if you really love that color, but if you are just buying it because you think the rest of the package (maintenance history, Porsche dealer selling it, fancy showroom, short warranty) offsets a color you don't really care for, then you'll regret buying it. You can easily get a nice C4S for that kind of money. Don't over value the warranty offered by the dealer. You said it is a short warranty - so probably 90 days or so? That's not that big of a deal. A $25,000 budget will get you an incredibly nice, well maintained car. If you are willing to take a car that's got right at 100,000 miles, then $20,000 will get you a great car. See this thread from late August: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l-on-ebay.html Look for a car that an enthusiast is selling directly - a couple of really nice ones sold off this board in the past month. Don't get in a hurry - there are lots of 996s out there. And, the next couple of months are a great time to buy - November and December are dead months in the auto sales industry. The market bottoms out in November and December and then will rise rapidly in February through May when tax refund season is in full bloom plus the nice weather gets people thinking about buying new cars. Dealers who get taxed on the inventory on hand on December 31st will also be dumping inventory in November and December, then in February they will be buying up everything they can to stock their lots for tax refund season. You will see about a 10% difference in prices between November and March.

For 31, you can buy a low mileage c4s. Keep shopping, you can save yourself at least 7 grand

I posted earlier, but to add to that after seeing everyone else's comments - Make a serious offer that you would be THRILLED to get the car far. Stick to it and walk away if needed but make sure they have your info. Then keep looking. If you find something better, great, too bad for them. In the meantime, the dealer may come to his senses and call you back. But if you just give up on it now, you won't know what happened or may miss out. But if you don't get it, it's not the end of the world at that price.

Caution - a bit of ramble follows. I rarely comment on price because the sheer volume of these cars on the market presents an extremely wide range of price as well as condition. In my mind, it's just too difficult to make an apples to apples comparison car to car. I doubt that we'd find many cars that present equal value, in other words, a 996 is not just like any other 996 just as few 4 bedroom homes are just like any other 4 bedroom home. Then the "value" proposition comes into play. Using housing as the analogy - about five years ago we purchased a second home through a short sale and we knew going in that although the low purchase price would gain us over 20% in instant equity, to put the house in a condition that we wanted would cost us well above that. House is finally just about done and we have most of the "would be nice" features that we dreamed of but the final price tag put us into the new or newer home category. BUT - for us it isn't the price that brings the value, it is having a fully updated home with features tailored to us that rests on a gorgeous wooded country acre with views that make it difficult to refute the belief in a higher power. (You can build a house, you can't build the land) Back to 996's - I bought the 04 C4S about three years ago for $41k and yes I did hear that I was paying a premium and better deals were to be found. But it did turn out to be the right car for us and after scouting for over 18 months I honestly did not find one other C4S in like condition with the options I was looking for. So I might have spent a few more dollars but the value is in having a car that we truly enjoy and I have never driven it thinking it would be perfect "if only" it had this or that or if something was different. My suggestion is to be patient and to not jump at the first car. Best to avoid paying a premium on something that has you compromising on what you personally want. At the same time, should you find a truly solid car that has what you want, I wouldn't pass on it just because other people tell you that you can get one cheaper. Happy hunting.

Thanks for the additional advice - I really appreciate it. I keep thinking about the colors - but maybe because of my deuteranomaly, I tend not to obsess. There is a better than average chance I'll buy a oddball, un-saleable color if I stray to far from the popular tints without counseling. I have decided that, while I like the history of the car, I am not ready to pay that much of a premium for it. I need to look around a bit before doing that - no big hurry. I did leave a message for the dealer explaining that and telling him to give me a ring if they wanted to talk about a fairly significant discount. Now, I need to start monitoring the enthusiast boards - thanks.

You mention color, but not options. At anything near that price it would have to be a very well-optioned car. Technically options don't add much to the value of a used car, but in the case of Porsche the options can be extensive. For a higher priced car I would expect full leather, metallic paint, PSM, 18" wheels, and a few Exclusive options like wood or aluminum trim. Basically, a unique car. And remember that 03-04 996s feature the MOST digital audio system. It can be difficult and expensive to upgrade to a more modern and mobile phone compatible head unit.

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You will not find a good condition 997 for that money. $45k is about the starting point for that car.

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Plenty of nice '05-'07 997's now hitting the market with asking prices $35K-$40K. Here's two just in the last week in my local market: 2005 997S, $36K, 58K miles. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4699829828.html I looked at this one in person. Pristine, great color, but tiptronic. Probably would have bought it if it either had sport chrono (which makes the tip perform much better) or six speed. 2007 997, $38.5K, 25K miles. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4715918946.html If I didn't just buy my Cayman S, I'd be checking out this one... But your right, at $34K or less, I haven't spotted any nice local 997's yet, and definitely not at $31K.

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Looking in the wrong market here ya go 997's $31k and below http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst...676198707.html 2005 PORSCHE 911 CARRERA SPORTS CHRONO PACKAGE FULL ALCANTARA $31k http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac...714465054.html Porsche 911 ( 997 ) Black on Black - $29900 new Clutch, Ceramic IMS upgrade, RMS replacement, new break pads, new oil pump, new tires and wheels, http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...678936514.html 2005 PORSHE CARRERA 911 MUST SEE 71K MILES - $27995

Did you see the nice part? (never mind the local...) The first two are 100k+ mile cars, third looks like a ticky tacky modified car, wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. There are always cheap cars... Nice cars at a cheap price, not so much.

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I second, street rod a GOOD 997 starting point is $45000 low mileage 2 to 1 owners for me the only way I buy a high mileage any car is if I know the person and he or she has the car since new. Me I do not cut corners in maintenance or replace parts for non factory products, the more mileage the car the more things are ready to break,doesn't matter how careful the previous owner was with it. The less miles and owners the better for me I'm in charge of the things I'm going to replace and I'm the one who's using the life of a low mileage engine

Most rennlisters would agree with your emphasis on maintenance and ownership history on 996/997s...such factors outweigh mileage everytime. At $31K asking, the dealer will not have a crowd chasing his sales staff on this example. Wait a bit for the Nov-Dec seasonal sales drop off, then make a market-based offer and be patient. Time is on your side. relinuca

$31k is getting close to turbo territory. Just sayin.

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true They were just a few quick $31k examples of 997'. I was not saying they were great cars or anything else about them I would do some research on ANY car I was going top buy regardless if it was $30k or $50k I would rather have a higher mileage car that was well maintained and lots of new stuff including IMS replacement than a low mileage garage queen that was never driven Good, low price, local pick 2 lots and lots of people will travel a bit to get the deal they are looking for. There are some great deals on great cars out there

I'll say once more (!) that the way the 996 market is, the entire value of the car is in the engine. All the other things come for free. Make absolutely and totally sure that the engine is worth the price of the car. Why was the IMSB replaced? Who did it? Does LNE have records of it? Is the sticker on the door? Was the engine "qualified" before replacement, i.e. there was absolutely no metal in the engine that triggered the IMSB replacement? What I'm getting at is the issue that nailed me: yes, IMSB was replaced, but by an incompetent shop who did none of these and 12k miles later, the LNE IMSB was near destruction. If you can't get answers to those, I'd walk.

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all good points There are other IMS replacements other than LNE, so it is very possible it is not one of theirs Getting those answers are all part of researching the car

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+1. This totally sums up the HUGE problem I had with my 996. Car's entire value is the engine, period. Replacement and repair cost for the M96 are now higher than the values of majority of 996 cars out there. Take a C5 Z06 or an S2000. Both can be had for around $20,000.00. Replacement motor for S2000 can be had for $2,500.00. Replacement motor for Z06 can be had $4,500.00. Both the S2000 and Z06 motors are much stronger than the M96, yet cost 1/6th and 1/3 as much. The Porsche ownership mathematics is a bend over and get f00ked.

Again - good tips that I appreciate. I am patient and will wait another month a see if the car is still around and make a $25-26k offer. BTW, the options seem decent - Bose system, PSM, upgrade wheels, power seats, minimal aluminum trim interior.... Kalashnikov - my friend keeps asking me "have you looked at 'vettes?" and I do worry about an engine catastrophe with the 966. If your estimates are close, I may need to check out one or two. But my heart says 911 until something changes my mind...

While the engine is a huge consideration, you may find it fiscally wise to consider any other upgrades you plan to make based on what you know about the 996/997 platform and find a car that already has those updates. Non-factory upgrades seldom add much to a price of the used car (which is why so many people return their cars to stock before selling them) - you really do lose your shirt on money you put into a car if you turn around and sell it. My car is a prime example - I paid $30K 2 or 3 years ago for a '99 996, making it REALLY expensive for an early-model 996. However, the car was SOUND mechanically, and the previous owner plowed well over $20K in upgrades into the car, including full aero kit and numerous top-quality upgrades (suspension, oil pan upgrade, etc.). Many people will tell you NEVER to buy a car that's been modified. My caveat to that is that if you can find the right car that has already been modified - properly - to your liking, you can save a small fortune by letting the previous owner pay the depreciation on all of those upgrades. I got precisely the car I wanted - in fact, if I'd been paying for the upgrades myself, I would have cheaped out on some items. If I'd bought a $25K 996 and put $10K into upgrading it, I would have wound up spending a lot more for a car that wouldn't have been nearly as well sorted.

Just sold my 996 C2 Tiptronic Seal Grey in near perfect shape with 54k miles for 25k, put it on Cars.com and sold it in 4 days to the first person who saw it. I think that price is a bit steep. Porsche offered me 22k to sell it to them. You can find a better deal or pay a little more and get a 997 that should hold its value a little better.

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I don't think 997's will hold their value any better than 996's - they're just newer, for now.

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Mike - really sorry for what you have been through and disappointed, yet not surprised, that some folks will pass on a known problematic car without full disclosure. I had the Porsche dealer replace the IMSB in my C2 with an LNE and now I really appreciate the tech who returned the original bearing to me instead of following LNE protocol to return the bearing to them. He told me that in his opinion there was more value to me in keeping the bearing than there was in the LNE warranty. When I asked him what he meant he explained that should I ever decide to sell the car I would have the evidence that my bearing was replaced preventatively and not in an attempt to salvage an engine that experienced any degree of bearing failure. And even if the LNE bearing failed the warranty would only cover the cost of the bearing and not the expense of losing an engine. I still have it somewhere and really glad the tech was thinking way beyond me. Like many of us do, I was a little ticked that I spent the bucks to replace something that was perfectly good, grumbled a bit about having the worlds most expensive paper weight, and now have come to realize it was the right thing to do. I hope you are getting some enjoyment out of your car these days.

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That's brilliant, yes, that would be the right thing to do, at least for folks like us. Others may insist on the LNE warranty, but I agree, who cares about the bearing cost? Re: my car, I'm just getting back to being comfortable with it -- have had some electrical issues that have gotten in the way and may still, but a separate thread (search for DeOxit) addresses that. I hope.

Just for reference, I purchased gorgeous white 2002 996 Hardtop with 70k for $21.5k High mileage ? Not really to me. I connected a Durametric reader and saw that the previous owner never redline the motor. It's my daily driver. I never take it out if the drive is less than 10 miles. But for some reason the used market is kinda crazy the last few months. I think $21k is still high for what I purchased though.

Bored at soccer so you guys get my opinion. The focus on purchase price is over rated. A couple thousand one way or the other doesn't matter. If you get a good one you are driving the bargain of the decade. If you get a bad one a couple thousand is a drop in a big bucket.

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This is a great way to think about the 996. Most of these cars are a huge bargain. I mean really, $25k or so for a fully drivable supercar with superb amenities that none of the earlier 911s had. It's completely ridiculous. Get a solid engine, the options you want, then pay whatever you need to get the deal done. How to get that solid engine is what dozens of threads here debate.

The quickest way to judge the value of a 996 is to look around and see what else you can get for the same dollars. The 996 is one of the best car values on the market today. I just searched nine Porsche dealers in Southern California and found a total of three 996s for sale...the top price was $38k for one with 58k miles, the lowest was $26.9k for one with about 40k miles, the third was just under $30k with about 50k miles. All C2s...looking very nice and clean. I think these are good prices for an official dealer with all their overhead. I know that there are dozens of private market / craigslist 996s in the high teens (and even less)...and here in Los Angeles, a lot of them have long stories or even salvage titles. So what is a good deal? I paid between 2 and 4 thousand over market average for my car...an 03 with 39k miles...$29k dollars. And so far I have no regrets. The market is the market and that is just a fact, but at the same time I think it has undervalued the cars for several reasons...just as it is overvaluing cars such as the 993s and 964s, which just a few years ago were going for what the 996s are going for today. In fact looking at KBB on the 993 and 964 will leave you shaking your head trying to make sense of it all. My own conclusion is that we should pay as much as we can afford for the best example of the car we want to own. Back in the 90s when I went through my Ferrari period there was a fairly good saying..."buy cheap and pay twice." If you are looking at a 996 you are looking at an excellent piece of engineering and a wonderful car to drive.

You guys are absolutely correct - these cars offer a fabulous value if you don't have an engine failure. I have to say that the car I tested was spectacular when it comes to performance - nothing like the older 911s I have driven but never owned (70's-80's). I have always been a BMW fan and have owned many cars and bikes, but I can't imagine any BMW coming close to the 996. I am happy to pay a reasonable premium for the right car, but just thought this one was pushing that a little too far. Plus, I keep thinking I would like to go for a cab rather than a hard top - so I'lll keep looking.

Picked up a 2000 C2 for $24999, about 6 weeks ago with a hair under 37,000 miles. Have put almost 2000 miles since after a couple of road trips. PPI showed the car was clean except a window compensator and broken hinge on the armrest, both items replaced by dealer at no cost. Huge value!!

Most won't have engine failure. If your car is toast, burned, crushed, and vaporized, you'd only be out $20k, far less than the depreciation of a 2014 911. Over 90% of 996s won't have engine failure. Many that are still around either have the IMS/RMS retrofit or no issues at all (due to double row bearing or tips which are less prone to engine failure than the 6 speed).

I just recently sold my 2004 C4S with 91000 miles on it for $28500.... So to me $31K isnt out to lunch providing its the right car. Mine was a great car, a C4S, very good service/maintenance history, an LN IMS, and some nice mods. It sold in 4 days. Even though the miles were high, the maintenance and condition were fantastic. The fact that I introduced the new owner to the shop that worked on this car the last 7-8 years was a huge reason the sale was so easy. On top of what everyone else has noted, color, options and extras effect the sale price as well as supply. Here in San Antonio the buyer looked at 4 other 03-04 Carreras, and paid more for mine than the others based on the look and service history. Take your time, find "your" car... In the $30's there are a lot of good cars available