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YOUR RESEARCH996 Bashing
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Replace 997
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I think the problem is with society and social media.
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Second: Why would an uninformed person devoid of the ability to research, prospect and inspect a 996 prior to purchasing break your heart?
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What about someone that doesn't inspect valve wear in a 993 and has to a do a total rebuild shortly after purchase?
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I'm not going to waste my life trying to change their mind, particularly because their opinion doesn't affect me one bit.
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These comments were posted in 997 forum when i suggested a 996 4s manual coupe as an entry level 911 buyer ($40k max budget) looking for a year round car in Colorado:
I would NOT purchase a 996 C4S under any circumstances I have been around these cars long enough to see how truly horrible the non-Mezger 996s have been since brand new. They were even pitiful when new and were getting lemoned left and right in the early 2000s.
The non Mezger 996 performance is at best anemic by today standard. There are SUVs that can run circles around them on the track and in a straight line.
The narrow body 996 is also perhaps the worst looking 911 ever and prices long term will continue to be in the toilet on these. They will not rebound, hold or appreciate like other 911 models.
The bashing never stops
Around here, early 997s are the same price as 996s. So much for holding value.
I drove a 997 (targa 4) prior to buying my C4S. It wasn't any faster. I didn't find the interior much nicer. I have to admit that I am not 100% a fan of any of the front ends from 1998-present. I find the front bumpers come to a "point" in the centre, that I wish wasn't there.
Yes, I know it is nitpicky, and can only be seen from certain angles, but I wish it was rounder like the G Bodies or the 964.
Imagine being so salty over a car. His comment about SUVs is irrelevant, some of these things today have 500+ HP and would run around anything that is 20 years old. You can get a Toyota Camry with 300 hp now, its been over 20 years since the 996 debut lol.
He wrote this:
"I might would consider another 996tt, having purchased 3 when new, if that was my budget, but no way in hades would I even consider a 996 C4S with an M96 engine. The 997.2 handles better, looks better and is the better all around car. Perhaps Bronz's car is not well sorted after all and someone mentioned it being sold to Bronz super cheap. The 996tt is a decently fun car with Mezger reliability."
So you know, Bronz was the seller of the 997.2 FSI that i picked up in March. I assume he owns some 997 as well because he pops up in that forum regularly.
He has a fixation with FSI i believe, having posted this comment:
"Neither Raby nor anyone with a Raby engine has ever posted a dyno chart. Be nice to see area under the curve and shape. Building to a 4.0 does not automatically equate to performance"
Actually I agree with that statement.
I'd like to see the curve myself, not for the peak numbers, but to see the entire curve.
I bet it is an impressive graph.
And building a 4.0 doesn't automatically equate to more performance, any true engine builder can tell you that.
Jake has put in the time and money to figure out what to do and not to do.
Almost anyone else is just going to have to hope that what they do is correct.
I doubt there's more than a handful of people who know for certain what will and won't work...and most, if not all, of those people work for Jake.
I stopped letting other people's opinions about me or the things I enjoy bother me over a decade ago. I realized that anyone who goes out of their way to bash someone or something usually has more severe problems in their lives. I'm not going to waste my life trying to change their mind, particularly because their opinion doesn't affect me one bit. I would be a fool to care!
I get lots of "hate" from my car-guy friends. They don't understand why I like Hondas more than Porsches or why I get a lot of excitement out of my C4 Corvette when I "could've bought a C5 for a little bit more". It's actually fun seeing them get riled up about it. lol
If you enjoy your car, or anything else for that matter, be happy you found something to like and just brush off what others think. Life is so much better!
I saw some of those comments. As a prospective buyer(seems like I've been 3-6 months away for 3-6 years now lol!) I do not find the 996 to be ugly. I prefer the headlights of the 997, but still like the looks of the 996. Besides, I'm a big believer in value and a 996 in good shape offers insane value.
Buying something like a Porsche should be about the experience it brings YOU, not someone else. I don't understand people that think their opinion must be factually correct. It's an opinion. To lash out at others for their opinion is far more a reflection of the person lashing out. For me, I just tend to block out anything they say as it's apparent that they lack the ability to look at the subject objectively. Heck, some of those guys even blast the 997.1 as far inferior to the 997.2. Because of an IMS? Please.
Right now my problem is I've driven a 2020 992 C2S and a 2016 Cayman GT4 recently. Neither are in my price range and I'm worried my expectations are way out of whack lol! What really suprised me was I liked the Cayman more
.
More likely, the only thing he's ever heard from
any
woman is "no". Sad, alone, stewing in the stark realization that even a 997 couldn't fix his misfortunes.
Didn't Jake do a dyno video at some point with one of his engines, the point being to show what it could do without any upgrades other than the built engine?
Don't forget, the 986/996 were the cars that saved Porsche's ash so they could go on and make other models. Go ahead and pooh pooh them. Makes no difference to me. I like my car.
The 996 was "tied to the whipping post" from the get go from the Air Cooled crowd. They bashed everything from the watercooling to the headlights. And since there were no 997 991 992 yet, the 996 caught all their wrath.
On all the Porsche Club drives I have been on, there were very few Air Cooled cars ever on the drives, and if ever there was a car that wouldn't restart after a brief break, or had to split off due to mechanical problems, it was an Air Cooled car.
The 996 may never get rid of the "whipping Boy" status, but I don't care, mine is to drive and I intend to drive all the good out of it !!
Week from tomorrow will mark exactly 15 months of ownership of my 03 4s. Have put on slightly over 16,000 miles of non-DD, spirited whenever possible, miles. Other than window regulators and a new horn, not a single issue What a terrible car.....how will i ever sell it.....I should've bought a modern SUV to take off-ramps at 5x the posted limit not this piece of ..........
That's a lot of miles for a non DD. I've had mine almost 3 years and have put 7k on it as a non-DD. Those 7k miles have been purely fun miles. No creeping along on the highway for me.
People are strange. I think the problem is with society and social media. It makes everyone feel like their opinion counts and they feel obligated to post it.
FWIW the 996.1 aero is the best looking 911 ever. I can say this because it's not an opinion but a fact.
And after owning a 996 and 997 I have never had anyone say a bad word about either. And if they did I would have questions about their personality more than anything.
I feel like the only people that have issues with 996's are very specific (elitist) owners of other very specific models of Porsche. Everyone else seems to just see them as a 911.
Besides lots of night and weekend pleasure drives, i've had to make an untold number of 120-150 mile round-trips taking my wife to dr appts/treatment. Under covid restrictions there were many days when i had to drop her off, return home 75 miles, and then go back later to pick her up. I've put on 3,000 miles since May 1st. Got to drive it in manhattan a lot with the streets to myself, though condition of the streets take most of the fun away. The sound with windows down, sports exhaust on, 5k rpm going through the 1.5 mile long Lincoln Tunnel is something i will never forget.
WHO CARES?
I had wanted a 911 for a long time. An air cooled one at that. When the prices got ridiculous on air cooled, and I was in a position to purchase, I did a ton of research. I had a budget of up to $60K cdn. (~$45K US).
997.2 was a little bit out of budget.
997.1 I thought the front end was good looking. I hated the interior. Couldn't stand the NAV, phone dialer, gray, silver, black interior. Since I spend more time in it, than looking at it, this was important. No spare tire was also an issue. I planned on driving to the cottage regularly and was concerned about getting a flat and ruining the weekend. Spare tire means I get to my destination. Mechanically, the cars are very similar with the same IMS/Bore scoring issue.
So, I bought a 996.2. Would of bought a 996.1 too. I think the interior being all black will never go out of style or be too dated. Within days of getting it at 45000 miles, I had the IMS (Solution), water pump, AOS, clutch, flywheel all done. It was purchased at a Porsche dealer. They treated my like I was buying a brand new car. Got most service records, 2 keys, new brakes, tires etc.
This past weekend, I went on a cruise with 40 other Porsches. I realized that the air cooled cars are sloooowwww. AC sux if even there.
People bad mouthed the 2.7's, the 964 now the 996.
Who cares?
Also, I drove an '85 original paint fox mustang from 2005 to 2018. If it wasn't for the fox mustang, there would be no mustang today. The current gen mustang drivers are snubbed their nose at the fox. Everyone forgets the fox save the mustang. Sound like a familiar story?
Lastly, I always get the wave from other 911 drivers, regardless of generation. The 996 is a 911, will always be.
I really hate these comparisons that people do...but I am taking the bait. Let me first start by saying this. I had a 997.2 C4S and my 996.1 at the same time. But guess which car I still have...my 996.1 since 2011 but I had my 997for 9 years until 2018. I replaced the 997 with a 991 TurboS. In both cases, at the time I felt the C4S and now the Turbo are the best cars I have ever owned. However, there is difference of what is the best and what is the funnest car to own. I expect that my 996 will be with me for a long time, and the 991 will come and go, as will future generations of Porsches I will own. I think someone made the claim that people who don't like other people cars because they are "elitests" is probably right. By definition people who are that way are missing the point about automotive ownership because unless they have Bugatti or Keonigsegg, they will never have the best car. However, If you judge a car by how much fun you have driving it, tuning it, modding it and polishing an waxing it, the outcome is very different. I measure cars by the story and the owner, the pride they take in the cars and how they share their passion with others.
So why am I a fan of the 996? We have two in the family, my son's C4S and my 996.1 Aero (which I do agree is the best looking 911 ever). So why? Well, let me just say this. I spend 90% of my forum time on the 996 Forum and the rest sprinkled across the taycan, 991 turbo, and some air-cooled. Why do I spend so much more time on the 996 forum? Because I love seeing the pride people have saving a car, rebuilding a car, modifying their car (like ttt123 and Jim and his wife). I guess my point is that it is all about the people that share my passion. The cars they own are how they express their love. So who am I to judge. And frankly using that lens makes me love all cars who has a passionate owner.
Cheers.
The basher just doubled down with these kind words:
�My beef with the 996 is how many people have used that model as their gateway drug to 911 addiction because they are cheap and were left heartbroken and embittered on the brand when the cars die on them or break down constantly�
Jake's wife does hold a few FIA land speed records in a 996 with an engine that Jake built, so the power is probably there..... I saw the records myself. I'm still a huge fan of FIA records, especially those that were set by the ZR-1 in 1991. It's sad they were all broken by a VW on a better track and by a car that never saw a production line.
And I've gotten far too old and grump to give a rip if some other clown on the internet likes my car or not. It's mine. I paid for it, and I can do whatever I want with it.
Funny that you say that because i had the same thought but instead, being polite, i told him that maybe he could see dyno results if he ever became one of Jake�s customers. His reply:
�RE: Becoming Jake's customer
That ain't gonna happen because I won't purchase a car that has any realistic chance of ending up in Jake's shop and I would put a factory GTS motor back in 2012 GTS if the GTS engine failed.
I have done my fair share of major performance builds for both street and track, taken a few 3.6 air cooleds to 3.8s, took a 996tt up to 750hp in 2003, 2 Ruf engine builds and had a few 930s up around 600hp in late 80s and early 90s. We (me and they guys that worked on my engines) were always happy to share our dyno sheets when we had good results to share�
I�m amazed at how much attention and replies this thread got. Who cares what this guy thinks ! 99% of the folks out there don�t know the difference between a 964, 996 and 991. I�ve got a stock �99 C2 and people everywhere think it�s cool.
Whatever I want.
I freaking love this 996 lives matter shyte. Classic.
Dude, I be the one saying no. I am 53 and she is in her 30s. I cannot freaking keep up and now she wants another kid. About to trade her in on an older model.
Lol, you are a grumpy one for someone who professes not to give a rip.
Sorry dude felt necessity to come over here and cut portions of my post to get you guys all riled up or hurt. I was really just responding to someone seeking advise about first 911 to purchase.
I am a life-long 911 guy. Have had around 40 911s. Been my passion since a kid and started racing 911s in 83 at 16. I love 911s as much as anyone. I, however, view the M96/M97 as a huge black mark on Porsche. I get super bummed when guys finally get around to purchasing their childhood dream car and end up with a catastrophic failure that paperweights their childhood dream and leaves a bad taste in their mouth about the brand. Breaks my heart for them every time I see that happen.
Hey Doug H. I have a 184 HP car that I track. I really enjoy driving it on the track. You mentioned that many of the newer vans and SUVs can run circles around it on a track and now I am sad. Should I sell it and buy a 996 TT or just kill myself?
Also, I would love to know your opinion on my dyno sheet. It has really high HP and TQ values, which people like you always focus on. Would you be gracious enough to take a little time out of your busy schedule offering your invaluable advice to look at it?
Thanks!
When I'm in threads like this I always wonder are do people really believe what they say/post (which is kinda scary) or are they saying it just to get a response out of people (which seems to works but still kinda scary that people do that for fun)
Easily the most useless thread I've read on this forum over the past few years...
This sounds like a heartfelt opinion, but is it?
First: Unless 39 of the 40 911s you've owned were prior to 1999, you should LOVE the 996... it's the ONLY reason you or anyone else has owned one since... the 996 literally saved the company from being no longer. Read that again a couple times, maybe that alone will quell your fervor to poop on the 996 on a 996 forum.
Second: Why would an uninformed person devoid of the ability to research, prospect and inspect a 996 prior to purchasing break your heart? What about when that happens with someone buying a first gen 911 doesn't properly inspect for rust given the non-galvanized bodies or any of the early 2.7L problem areas that lead to costly engine problems or any of the early SC cars that have the same? What about someone that doesn't inspect valve wear in a 993 and has to a do a total rebuild shortly after purchase? The reality is, there's no car ever built (not even a 911) that doesn't have issues or need repairs at some point. Sure, the 996 has the same, but it's also a car that was made on the cheap (given Porsche's financial status at the time) and ran circles around the 993, and sold 3X better as a result. Pretty impressive if you ask me, particularly when it represents the biggest list of radical changes to the 911 architecture in the marques entire history with the model in question.
Third: Why feel the need to come over here and ruffle feathers if your thoughts are out of concern and not wanting your heart broken over the misguidedness of others? We all know what we have. We love what we have. We own with our eyes open. We got this, but thanks.
So the 997 forum wasn't giving you enough attention, so you decided to come here? I figured most Porsche owners would be above trolling, but you find the way to earn significantly while reaching new lows emotionally. Congrats.
And yes, if you think I really care about your posts, you should ask those on this forum that have actually met me (there are a few). I'm glad you are getting the attention you crave though, I'd hate for you to feel neglected. The human need for interaction, even negative, is amazing.
He needs to just add his lifestory about the 40 911s and Ferraris and etc. to his signature, would save him a lot of time retyping it in
every. single. post.
I'd say that youtube (996 vs 997) is much more interesting than this thread, and more informative, and less difficult to understand what someone is really is trying to say with their posts. Just search on "996 vs 997" and several credible videos are available.
Thanks for the kind words. I apologize to the 996 forum for starting this thread, i stupidly ventured over to the 997 forum and tried to give someone some 1st hand advice, only for it to dissolve into this mess. As they said in "Apocalypse Now"..."never get out of the boat!"
Don't apologize. We already know we are at the bottom of the totem pole, pecking order, whatever. We still love our cars and despite what anyone argues, they are Porsche 911's. So I own and drive a Porsche 911. Lifelong dream come true. Can't beat that.
No reason to apologize. It's good to learn about the people you don't want to associate with.
There is a reason stereotype jokes exist. This is a pretty good example of how the Porsche/ porcupine joke originated.
Wait, what . . . do they make signature lines that big?
Lol, this is great. I love you guys!
Have a wonderful weekend enjoying your passion and spending time with your loved ones!
Your 2 posts here are some little, whiny passive aggressive personal attack stuff.
I just expressed an opinion about a car or realibility of an engine. You guys internalize it and make it all personal.
It�s all good. I�d still do anything for you or go out of my way to help any of you if you were stranded on side of the road with flat tire or something. Life is beautiful, but too short to internalize silliness or take anything too seriously.
Awww damn! You mean I wasted my money and a lot of time on my little old 996...
...putting a Ruf spoiler on it today? Crap! Oh well. Might as well go out tomorrow morning and see if I need to put more downforce on the front by going stupid fast in a car with a 3.8 build, not dyno�d, that�ll do 0-60 sub-4.3. Not bad for my little, ugly, 18 yr old car.
It wasn't just an opinion of the car itself, but every reason why it's a terrible option for anyone who wants to join the Porsche community, as if it's a death sentence. It's okay to have an opinion, but it's another to push an opinion as fact.
Does the 996 have it's faults, sure. It equally has it's positives. No different than any other German or Italian vehicle from the same era. You just appear to have an internal disdain on the 996 that really doesn't bare any weight.
I love my stock C4S. Perfect combination of feeling connected to the road but still a comfortable street car. Plenty fast as is. Can only imagine what it�ll be like when I get it back in Oct with the FSI 4 liter.
I didn't get offended or internalize anything you've said. I laugh at your opinions.
This might come as a shock to you but your opinions haven't affected anyone's lives...ever! So what you think about any car, or anything else, means nothing to any of us. Until a day or two ago,I never even knew you existed.
Im sure you're a nice dude but based on what you say, the depth of your mental thought seems rather lacking. At the end of the day, you have to live with it. Our lives will go on.
With that said, I'll keep enjoying every one of my cars whether people like them or not, but I will troll guys like you. It's fun.:-P
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I'm not even close to as wealthy as you, Doug, but I'm no poor SOB. You don't need to feel sorry for me. My 996 was my first and probably my only Porsche. It's such a fine car that I'm 6 years in and have plenty of money in my piggy bank for my next M96; that I plan to build myself. Don't discount them all as junk - and I'm talking about the owners too.
Absolutely perfect weather today. Hundred mile joy ride along the Delaware as well as delivered groceries to locked down in-laws. Decided to really make the factory sports exhaust sing. Had a Ferrari behind me at some point which is always nice to see in the rear view mirror. Was on the lookout for any SUVs who wanted to show me up, lol.
Thanks for all the kind wishes for my wife. She�s tougher than all of us combined. Never discount the therapeutic value our cars offer us, thats why I�ve put on so many miles in such a short amount of time.
