C4S towed to Porsche dealer

Wife and I went for a drive on Sunday and were only 4-5 miles from home on a quite 2 lane road when I started to hear a noise. I had the sunroof down and it sounded like something was loose and blowing in the wind and smacking the roof. I pulled over as soon as I could and brought the car to a stop. Unfortunately, the sound continued so I turned off the engine. I have heard that the IMS bearing sounds like marbles in a can, and that is what this sounded like. I had the car towed to Porsche and they called me on Monday to tell me that they suspected it was the IMS bearing and that part of the shaft had dropped into the transmission. They dropped the transmission on Tuesday and called to tell me that they found no debris in the transmission and that the engine still made the same sound with the transmission off. At this point, they do not believe it is the IMS bearing. However, they don't seem to know what it is. They said they would remove the spark plugs and see if they noticed anything in the engine. I have not heard back from them since Tuesday. I do have the Easy Care extended warranty. The car is a 2005, 996 C4S with only 13K on the odometer. Any ideas?

WTF? They saw no debris in the transmission so they think the IMSB is fine??? And then they started the engine again?? For the love of god please have it towed to a shop that has a clue If you heard "marbles in a coffee can" then more likely than not your IMSB is toast and given all the extra running they've apparently done to it I'd bet if that is the case then the motor is good and trashed at this point Sorry man. Wish there was better news here Edit: Please name and shame this dealer so others can avoid having their car ruined there.

(most likely) Failed tensioner or chain guide ? (least likely) Bad alternator or water pump bearings ?

I'm hoping they thought it was the throwout bearing - otherwise, the rest of the explanation they offered (thought it was the IMS - checked somewhere the IMS has nothing to do with - and ran the engine more) is inexcusably stupid bordering on negligence. I would be interested to hear the story of how the IMS dropped into the transmission... OP, no matter what happens, sorry to hear that your drive ended in a sucky fashion. Please don't let them start it again until diagnosis has been completed.

You had it towed to a PORSCHE garage. I would say that is the correct place to tow the car. I now say that you may have misinterpreted what PORSCHE told you. The posters on these pages are far from being qualified mechanics. Most times, posters are only making suggestions. They have not heard your engine. Have faith, PORSCHE will find and put your problems right. GNAT is over dramatizing what he reads from you which in effect might not be correct or misinterpreted by you. As far as advice from Schnell. If you tell them not to start the engine again, what you gonna do if PORSCHE asks WHY? You are not a mechanic so say nothing. Let them 'do their job'.. Relax.. Don't sweat the small stuff.

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Hurdi, generally I think you are OK and entertaining, but you are off your rocker here. Thankfully I have never experienced an IMSB failure first hand, but everyone that has tells the exact same story of an unmistakable sound. Every mechanic that knows anything about the IMSB knows you don't run the engine until internal damage has been absolutely ruled out. Given his description of the problem the first thing they should have done is disconnect the battery so it couldn't be accidentally started by mistake. Next they should have inspected the oil and oil filter. I'll give you the "shaft may have fallen" and "no debris in the transmission so it isn't the IMSB" bits could be a miscommunication, but there is zero excuse for the shop running that engine as everyone with a lick of sense knows that if it is indeed the IMSB or something else inside, then running it is doing even more damage and taking it from possibly salvageable to a giant paperweight.

Hurdi , How would you know who is a qualified technician ? Are you ? You have made an ignorant statement. You should not assume .

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Hurdi, we know you steadfastly (irrationally? inexplicably?) deny that the IMS is a real issue, but OP here is in a situation where running the motor further - if there is shrapnel in the engine - will cause more and more damage. The PORSCHE mechanic you're crowing about, unless OP got the statement wrong, made a comment about the IMS dropping into the transmission that makes NO sense. The engine clatters with the transmission removed. Until the oil has been examined, the filter checked, and the pan dropped, starting the engine again could be the difference between a repair and starting from scratch. If the mechanic fires it, it runs for a few minutes, and then it implodes, he's going to shrug and say, "tough luck, Bud." It costs less to be cautious in this case. Being an IMSB denier is fine for you, but if you're wrong and OP starts and frags his engine, are you going to help him pay to fix it? This is one of those moments where "look before you leap" trumps "he who hesitates is lost."

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When you find yourself in the position where starting and running your car could be the difference between a repair and a new engine, report back and let us know if you still consider it to be in the "small stuff" category.

I'm very familiar with the IMS bearing failure and that is the reason I purchased the extended warranty. When I dropped the car off during the weekend the dealership was closed and I put a note in the key drop NOT to start the car as I suspected the IMS bearing. They removed the transmission....can't they now see the IMS bearing and therefore they should know if it is intact or not? I do know that the person that calls me just moved over from the VW dealership with the same ownership but he is not the one working on the car. I'll call them today and get an update as I'm not sure what their plan is. I recall they mentioned removing the spark plugs and seeing if they can then determine what is wrong. Appreciate everyone's concern!

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The other explanation why Porsche ran the engine is that it did not SOUND like a can of marbles. Obviously the poster thought it did and Porsche thought it didn't. There is no way in hell that Porsche or any other decent mechanic would even think of running an engine if further damage would be caused by them doing so. That's all I have to say on that matter.

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Actually, the mechanic said he thought it sounded like the IMS bearing and he seemed pretty sure that was the problem. However, they are assuring me that it is NOT the IMS bearing.

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I hope the Easy Care saves you. 13,000 miles! Amazing!! I drive that in a year. On sunny weekends, only. From April till October. Good luck. Sorry about your troubles.

First thing that jumps out to me is 13k miles. So he has an 11 year old car that's been driven an average of under 1,200 per year.

Is Easy Care a Porsche dealership sold product? Be careful that things are done in the proper protocol, so they don't deny your claim.

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Hurdi now you are just being an absolute idiot. The only thing they have to go on before turning the key is the customer's description of the issue. If the description matches the potential for a catastrophic engine damage no one in their right mind says "fvck it, let's start it up and see what we think it sounds like". Obviously you are not in your right mind. Please go back to your gutter guard, WD-40, and g11 tattoo. You obviously have no place of value in a thread like this.

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They can see the flange, but that has to come off to actually see the bearing. If they haven't inspected the oil and filter and removed the sump plate or removed the IMSB flange they can't be sure of that. The only 100% way to rule it out is to look at the bearing itself. If the filter and sump are clean you might be OK, but debris just might not have circulated enough yet.

One time, I started my 996 and immediate heard a sound that sounded exactly like "marbles in a can". I called my Indy and his response was, "That's not good...where is the car?". I gave him my address and 20 min later he showed up. First thing he did was open the engine bay then look for leaks under the car. Second thing...he started the car!!!! The sound was loud and immediate. Third thing he did was reopen the engine bay to show me that the cooling fan had cracked and the sound was basically the fan blade hitting the cracked housing (think baseball card and bicycle spokes). I followed him back to his shop and 30 mins and $50 later I was back on the road. Moral of this story? I guess Porsche mechanics do start engines because they are not as paranoid about IMS failures as we are...and every loud sound from the engine sounds like "marbles in a can"...even when it sounds exactly like a baseball card in your bicycle spokes, which sounds nothing like "marbles in a can", except to us, because we are paranoid about IMS failures...

Based on what every qualified mechanic should know about IMSB I see no reason why Porsche (apparently) did not immediately inspect the oil, filter and sump. Then, if finding no sparklies, removing the transmission and seeing no apparent damage, why they wouldn't remove the flange and inspect the IMSB and then borescope the engine. Either the OP has done a poor job listening to his service adviser or that dealership is screwed.

First of all, I do have an Easy Care extended warranty that was purchased through the Porsche dealer when I bought the car used with 6500 miles on it. I called Porsche this morning and they still do not know what is wrong with the car. I again brought up the IMS bearing issue and asked how they knew it was not a failed bearing that was causing the problem. He reiterated that all the mechanics, when they heard the engine, believed it was the IMS bearing. However, they assure me that this is not the problem. I asked if they looked at the bearing to verify it was intact, but he did not believe they had. He said other things, that he could not list, led them to this conclusion. I asked him to please let me know how they were so sure it was not the IMS. He promised to call me back. All I got was that they were trying to do everything they could to determine the cause without dropping the engine and taking it apart. They are aware that I have the Easy Care warranty and are trying to find the cause with the least amount of work and cost. I think they are very close to making the decision to pull the engine and start taking it apart.

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Early on I mentioned to them that I had a magnetic oil pan drain in the car so they could inspect that for metal. I did not ask them is they drained the oil, but I can tell you that they have not mentioned draining the oil. They have removed the transmission, but the person I talked to could not verify if they had physically observed the IMS bearing.

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The car is covered by a warranty. This is a warranty company I believe the dealership/techs have a lot of history with. The techs are probably following the guidelines set forth by the warranty company as determination is made what is wrong. From the warranty company's point of view, far more noises do not require engine replacement/rebuilding, so there will be a pretty deliberate -- read slow -- advance towards a final resolution. As an aside, I heard of a problem with a brand new car just off the delivery truck at the dealer. The engine sounded sick. The factory was contacted. Back comes a request to check something. The techs were like what the heck the engine is sick, shot, needs to be replaced. But they did as they were directed to do and as they expected the check found the suspected problem not the cause of the engine's noise/behavior. In comes another request from the factory. Again the check/test came up with zilch. This went on a time or two more until finally after a few days of this in comes the authorization to remove the engine a new one was on its way from the factory. While a tech/owner may jump to a conclusion, and often the right one, the factory or in your case the warranty company doesn't jump to conclusions but follows a certain path, exasperating sometimes to others, in reaching a decision.

I'm just glad they are doing all this goofy work on their dime and not yours. Be interesting to see what the conclusion is, but I"m with the team here that it's something in the cam drive area. Either the IMS related, or chain tensioner, pad, etc. But - that's just a guess. Once they finish toying with the trans, maybe they will pull the engine filter and all will be revealed.

If you're a 40-year-old guy who rolls into the ER with chest pain, they aren't going to immediately shave your chest, rub it down with iodine, and cut you open for a transplant. On the other hand, the ER staff take chest pain complaints very seriously, so they're also not likely to slap you on the back and tell you to jog around the block. It's OP's car - he should be as bossy/worried/whatever as he sees fit. If he wants to err on the side of being possibly overly cautious - or if he prefers to say f*** it and go do some high-speed miles to see if an Italian tune-up will fix the car - that's his choice. If my mechanic initially said they thought my IMS was failing and later recanted, I would feel justified in asking what caused them to change their mind(s) - especially if no additional diagnostic work had been done.

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Great posting Gonzo... That's in in a nut shell. GNAT, so is Gonzo an idiot now??????

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Let's see shall we? 1) Makes the sound at start up. While possibly an IMSB failure, I have yet to read about one that didn't happen while the car was in motion. 2) Calls a mechanic he obviously knows well and presumably trusts (basing this on the mechanic making a house call). This case sounds like a shop he is not very familiar with. 3) Mechanic looks under the bonnet before asking him to start the engine. It's not said, but presumably the saw the broken fan there and knew what it sounded like. #2 and #3 are key points to answer your question. Having "your guy" and knowing you can trust them goes a long way. Gonzo was also right there at the time so he had the chance to question as object as he saw fit. The OP, on the other hand, was not there and not involved in any of the decisions that could (quite literally) make or break the engine. That said, however, I would have still questioned him in that case for what he was thinking (and maybe Gonzo did and left that part out). Given the answer of "I suspect the fan" I would have jumpered the fan to run it without starting the engine to see if I agree if it was the sound I heard. So now to finally return to your question, you are still the idiot in my opinion.

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I sure hope it is not on my dime, however, that remains a risk. While I have the Easy Care warranty, purchased through this very Porsche dealer, I understand that these are not "open and shut" cases. The warranty company has to agree that this is a warranty issue! I did authorize the dealer to drop the transmission and I'm sure they feel authorized to do the "other" diagnostic work prior to any feedback from the warranty company. They are trying to get to the point of being able to have the warranty company come into the shop to look at the car.

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Gnat is correct (mostly). I don't think my Indy saw the fan issue (or maybe he did) prior to starting the engine. As I recall, I was just standing there, frozen in fear. I shudder to think that I supported Hurdi's opinion, but we RLister's do tend to be more paranoid. I also nearly barfed my shorts when I walked out one morning and saw a puddle under the left side of the engine that looked exactly like chocolate milk. Intermix!!!! Took it to the same Indy and it was (of course) a cracked coolant tank. I asked about the color of the puddle and he shrugged and said that the coolant was fine in the tank. He figured the drip just picked up dirt on the way to the garage floor. So...in my 3 years, I experienced both an IMS Failure and the dreaded Intermix... only to discover that I didn't. Here's the thing...if I wasn't a Rennlister, I would have probably saved a few years on this old ticker. I hope the OP's situation is similar to what I've shared, but it sounds like his mechanic is, as others have said, working through the process. The good news is they don't think its the IMSB. But of course they would have to say that...after all, they started the engine...

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Is this question related to this thread, or are we just talking, you know, in general? And, I'm no mechanic, but wouldn't pulling the filter and the magnetic drain plug and heck, even the sump plate, be a helluva lot easier and cheaper than dropping the tranny? Using the patient presenting with chest pains analogy (damn, we are a bunch of old men, aren't we?), wouldn't dropping the tranny be akin to doing a colonscopy before sticking a few sensors on his chest and doing an EKG? "You know, those chest pains COULD be sphincter related."

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I think we all know the answer to that question...

Hurdi, I know you love to run around spouting your "there ain't no IMS issue" rhetoric. However, your (unsubstantiated) 95% statistic is not applicable in this case. Remember a while back when everyone was freaking out about ebola? Rational people (like me, and probably you) were saying "Pshaw, there's what, a 99.99999% chance you don't have ebola. Why are you people freaking out?" However, the bogus 99.99999% statistic is not valid when the population you're dealing with has blood pouring from their eyes, ears, and a**holes. While there are probably a number of reasons you might have blood pouring from your eyes, ears, and a**hole, ebola suddenly seems like a much less fantastic diagnosis. Similarly, a 996 that is making (as OP described it) the marbles-in-a-coffee-can sound is no longer a part of the 95% general population with no symptoms; it's part of a much smaller population of 996's that make ominous engine sounds. In the same way that I wouldn't want to tell someone with blood running from their eyes, ears, and a**hole (I really wanted to work that in one last time) that they are doomed to die in the next 72 hours, I think OP with his can-o-marbles 996 should try to relax as much as possible while waiting for a proper diagnosis, hopefully based on something other than "Oh, never mind, it's probably NOT your IMS bearing," but I think he should be prepared for the possibility that the news might not be great.

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oh shoot. This thread is a silly thread (ST). So too are most of the posters (SP). That includes me too (MT).

Porsche called today and told me that the oil was full of metal. I asked about the IMS bearing and they said that they could see it and it is intact. At this point, the engine is out of the car and they do not know why the engine failed. Pretty surprising for an engine with 13k miles on it. Sounds like it will be a long process from here as they tear down the engine until they can find the root cause and bring in the warranty company.

That sucks man. Hopefully the warranty company doesn't try to weasel out of it on you.

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Hmm, If they can see the IMSB and tell it is intact, I'd wanna see a picture of what they're looking at.

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"HOPEFULLY" they have sufficient experience with that warranty company to know the protocol for this sort of situation. Many years ago there was a 928 that experienced a mysterious catastrophic failure. It was flat-bedded into my shop, and using a wrench on the front pulley the engine could be rotated only a small amount in either direction. Upon removing the spark plugs, the first cylinder I peered into produced an awesome surprise: As I exclaimed to my partner, "Harald, I'm looking at the small end of the rod and a wrist pin." The piston was completely gone. Before going any further we called in the owner who brought the extended warranty paperwork with him. We called that company and they told us to do nothing more until further instructed. They sent out a top-fuel dragster engine builder, and together we disassembled the engine to retrieve all of the parts and pieces as evidence. No cause-of-failure was ever concluded. Bottom-line, a replacement engine was provided and the labor cost reimbursed.

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Exactly, sound like these guys are clueless. And they took the liberty to take the motor out keeping you hostage to their shop at this point. Will be interesting to see what the warranty company is willing to do. It wouldn't surprise me if they go with the cheapest route and just find a used motor.

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They certainly should as they sold me the extended warranty! They sure seem like they know, and I was impressed that they knew I had the warranty!

warranty = a$$-$aver

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If you have spent any time here, read any posts, you should know there are a number of failure modes these engines are prey to. Not every sick/dead engine is in this state due to a failed IMSB. The techs have almost certainly had to deal with warranty company before and know the procedures. The techs I talked to told me often the warranty company rep comes in asking about a zillion questions essentially seeking a valid reason to decline to honor the warranty. This is in some ways understandable as while most owners and shops are quite honest a few are not and might try to pull a fast one. Have to point out that while the engine has some years on it, based on miles it is still a "new" engine. I define "new" as an engine that has not covered the new car warranty miles, 50K I think in this case. So, what you have experienced is a new engine failure. Any number of things could have gone wrong. Talk to the techs if you want. Remember they are busy and often on the clock so you don't want to take up too much of their time, and coordinate with the service manager, but you can ask questions about what is going on, how this proceeds, or should proceed and what to expect. Unfortunately the process takes time. As an aside, when my Turbo was in for service and a tranny leak was found and the factory contacted as the car was under a CPO warranty, it took almost 2 weeks for the factory to decide if it wanted to replace the tranny or authorize the techs to fix it in house. Then after the decision to replace the tranny with a new one was made it took the factory new tranny nearly 2 weeks to arrive from Germany. In the case of the tranny just (just...) aprox. $10K was on the line. A new engine costs considerably more.

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Very well put.

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If you have NOT yet done so, now would be a good time to READ THE FINE PRINT of your warranty...every single line of it! Specifically, the clause where it stipulates that engine damage due to XYZ component failure is indeed covered. Best of luck.

Porsche called today with an update. To make a long story short, my IMS bearing failed. They claim that from the exterior, that the bearing looks to be intact, however, they decided to pull the bearing to get a view of the engine interior and discovered that it failed on the inside (their statement is it failed about 2" in). So, Easy Care warranty will be there tomorrow to look at the engine. According to Porsche, it is up to them on how they will handle the claim. They mentioned that they found a new long block engine from Porsche in the U.S. but that the warranty company may only authorize a short block, or a used engine. He said the short block would need about 40 hours of Porsche's time to fully assemble the engine. I'm told this would be an updated engine with no (less?) risk of an IMS failure in the future. Anyone have any experience with IMS bearings and Easy Care? I would be okay with either the long block or short block, but a used engine to replace my engine with 13K miles does not sound fair to me!

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Bought an easy care warranty for my car years ago. Never used it. Hopefully my deposit will go towards your new engine replacement. Are we allowed to tell the techs we told you so? Anyone with any knowledge of this engine would have first drained the oil and second ruled out an IMS bearing until proven otherwise.

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And from Hurdi, we hear...crickets chirping. A tumbleweed rolls slowly by... While in many ways I don't disagree - assuming the worst every time something goes wrong is a great way to develop an ulcer - this was in fact one of those cases where running the engine at best distributed more metal around the engine and at worst caused collateral damage. You shouldn't necessarily second-guess everything your mechanic says any more than you should question every diagnosis your doctor makes - but mechanics and doctors, like the rest of us, do make mistakes. Paying attention to what's going on and asking questions when it seems prudent to do so - without coming across like a know-it-all douche - is probably a good plan regardless of the topic. Blind faith, regardless of the situation, is seldom a good idea. The "decent" mechanic in this case probably did the wrong thing - thankfully it doesn't much affect OP, since OP has a warranty. If OP had been paying for repairs out-of-pocket, he would certainly be entitled to be pissed off if firing his car up had caused additional damage. OP, it's awesome that your engine appears to be diagnosed correctly now, and even awesome-er that you have a warranty in place to take care of things.

And because I can't help myself, Hurdi...

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Bummer man. Hopefully the warranty stands tall for you. Fingers crossed for you. About 2" in? What does that even mean? The dual row bearing is right about 2" and the single row is thinner than that. Pulling the bearing isn't going to give you a view inside the motor, just inside the IMS itself which isn't going to be enlightening unless things are really bad... My guess is they maybe pulled the flange off and assumed all was well as the seal was in place. Then then either removed the seal or indeed pulled the bearing and found the true state of the bearing. Of course now the real question is if the bearing was the cause or if it was taken out by something else...

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I saw this and laughed - IMO it's just a little professional courtesy (i.e. CYA) for the guy who previously misdiagnosed the issue.

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Hurdi is right that there could be a miscommunication issue (either Tech -> SA, SA -> Rectorbill, or Rectorbill -> Internet). My bet is that the SA is on the clueless side and misreporting the information to both sides. I have little love for dealers, but I highly doubt the Techs are as incompetent as this makes them sound.

^ Although keep in mind that the techs at a Porsche dealer are probably not the gold standard when it comes to dealing with cars from 12 years and 2 generations ago. The real experts on 996s work in the independent shops. The dealer techs are going to be more concerned with warranty repairs on 991s. They are probably pretty good with 997s. Assuming there is no big communication issue between rectorbill and the internet, this situation is Exhibit A as to why you shouldn't take your 996 to a Prosche dealer for service. Either the techs or the SA are not competent. Seriously, if a bunch of internet knuckleheads like us can figure out that it was bad juju to start that engine without checking the oil filter and magnetic drain plug first, then whoever made the decision to do that is either too stupid or too ignorant (as in uninformed) to be working on these cars.

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We know it was reported to the SA (directly or written on the drop off envelop?) that the IMSB was suspected and not to start the car. We don't know, however, what happened after that point. My guess is that the SA just sent the lot jockey out to bring the car into the shop. By the time the Tech got to it, it was too late. I'd even bet that rather than having their top Tech jump right on it (who may have known enough to stop everything), they probably have a lower level guy start the initial triage. I agree with your premise though. If the Tech wasn't working as a Porsche Tech while the given model was on sale, they won't have gotten the training on it. I wonder how difficult it would be to build a locking clamp to fit over the negative battery terminal so that in such situations you can disconnect the battery and then lock it so that it can't be used or removed without contacting you first...

A lower-tech solution might be to disconnect the battery and leave a note: "DON'T START THIS CAR! YOU WILL F**K IT UP!"

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I thought this was common knowledge that only low level or junior techs works on all 996's that come through the dealerships. Only experienced and senior techs get to work on 991's only.

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Yes, but that doesn't prevent them from starting it. And you know they would then say "we didn't see any note" Yes I have a bit too much skepticism and paranoia running through my veins. I'm not a "trust but verify" type of guy. More of a "distrust and smack them with a brick" type of guy

Just a comment on the noise an IMS would make going out... The bearing for my main cooling fan in the 98 Jeep Cherokee went out, lots of smoke when it did, and maybe some chirping or something before it went. Really no loud warning at all. What's more, AFTER it went out the fan still moved a bit but there was no real loud sounds or anything alarming that was louder than the engine. So I ended up driving it another week without the bearing there and about 100 miles up North to have it fixed. So yes, we would all like to think that a bearing will make this God awful noise and racket before it goes out, but sometimes they don't and it just happens more or less without warning.

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I don't know that the sound happens every time, but we all have a deep fear of the sound of marbles in a coffee can because it is a common correlation to the end of your engine. I'm not sure a cooling fan bearing is a good comparison anyway though as it's not really supporting anything (and was it the bearing or the clutch?). The IMSB, on the other hand, is supporting the IMS. Under the final stage of failure where the bearing throws the cages and ***** the IMS will then start wobbling around and doing bad things to your timing components as well. I honestly don't know, but I don't think the coffee can sound is the bearing itself. I expect it is the other components in the engine doing things they are not supposed to (e.g. the IMS being loose enough to come in contact with other parts? Mistimed valves hitting the pistons? etc..). Just guessing though.

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Ding,ding,ding. It's like taking a 928 to a Porsche dealer. They would prolly say; 'hey, we don't work on Mazda's, take it down the road.' I would venture to say there's more collective 996 wisdom here and a few indies than all of Porsche NA.

I stopped in this morning to see the dealership and to understand their strategy to deal with Easy Care. I met with the service manager and the SA and they showed me the car. They pointed out that the bearing disintegrated from the inside and looked fine from the exterior. I could see ball bearings and metal shavings everywhere. I specifically asked if they had dealt with Easy Care regarding an IMS bearing failure and subsequent engine damage. They said they did not recall dealing with them on an IMS issue but have dealt with them on engine failures and they have always handled it well. They gave me much more confidence that this will be handled correctly by Easy Care. They mentioned that Porsche has one 997 engine in the US....a long block that would fit the car if they get the go-ahead from Easy Care. I'm assuming this engine would minimize the chances of having the same thing repeat again as I believe improvements have been made to the design. Now we just wait for the Easy Care representative to stop by the shop and take some pictures and get a final determination.

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if it is a 997.2 (i.e. 2009-up) check out this thread for more on 997.1 vs. 997.2: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...s-997-2-a.html

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And that's not just a drop in replacement for a 996 right? Rectorbill, if it is a .1 engine (which I believe it would have to be) then it still has an IMSB. It should have the larger single row bearing, but if so it will will be the captured variety which means that you won't be able to take reasonable steps to prevent further issues (e.g. the motor has to be disassembled). The good news, however, is that the larger captured bearing seems to have a much lower failure rate than the 996 single row bearing.

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I was unaware of the 997.1 and 997.2 engines, but I did ask them if it was the current production and they said it was. This would indicate that it is a 997.2. However, they may not have know what they were talking about. So the 997.2 won't fit into a 996? What happens when all the 997.1 engines are gone? Appreciate everyones inputs!

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I'm not positive it won't work, but at a minimum I expect it would also need a new ECU and probably a different wiring harness. The .2 has the 9A1 motor which continued into the 991.1. The 997.1 had the M97 motor which is very similar to the M96 (I think it is just some internal differences, but again don't quote me). Same thing as there being no more M96 motors. Prices will skyrocket on the few left in someone's stock, there will be a bigger market for used motors, and Jake and other engine builders will be getting a lot more work.

Just got a call from Porsche. Easy Care has looked at the engine and is proposing to ship a remanufactured engine from LKQ. It would be a remanufactured 996 engine, so it will have the same IMS defect as the engine that just failed. The engine is covered by a 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty and I would be covered for another 3 years or so beyond that with my Easy Care warranty. I did ask if remanufactured engine had anything to minimize the risk of an IMS failure like the LN bearing. He did not know and would not know until he receives the engine. I asked about putting in the LN bearing while the engine was out of the car and he said Porsche will not allow them to do that. If I want a new engine, I need to pay the difference ($12K remanufactured vs. $25K new). The main issue I have with this is just that I'm getting the same defect back in the car, but I guess I knew what I had when I purchased the car and it is the reason I got the extended warranty. I put the engine shipment on hold till I can get some opinions.

Get the remanufactured in, and then sell the car. Cut your losses. By a 997.2. Or. Get the remanufactured engine in, and do the L&N upgrade on your $3,000-ish dimes and minimize you losses.

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Sounds like a winning situation to me. Worse case, drive it close to 4 years and sell it or trade it in.

I did have a thought and just got off the phone again with Porsche. Why not replace this engine with a remanufactured 997 engine instead? The cost difference can't be much and it would minimize my risk (and the warranty company's risk) of having to deal with this all over again. Porsche clearly said that the engine they have is a 996 engine. Another interesting fact is that I went to LKQ online and they claim they don't have any remanufactured 996 or 997 engines for my car, so I'm not sure where Easy Care found one so fast. It has shipped (reportedly from Wyoming) and will be here in 3 days.

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The wiring harness and DME from your current 996 won't mate to a 997 motor.

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Yeah that the dealer won't replace the bearing is not a surprise. Many dealers won't install non-OEM parts. Yeah you've got the warranties so just enjoy it as is and don't worry about it for a few years. Just make sure to pay close attention to the oil during changes and get them involved ASAP if anything shows up. After the warranty runs out if you still want to keep the car, then consider replacing the bearing. Before it goes in the car you might talk to the dealer about having the bores scoped from the top and bottom. You'll have to pay for it (including a new oil pan seal), but I think it's worth it to be sure of the state before it goes in your car. Unfortunately "reman" doesn't always mean the same thing so it could be anything from a motor that has been rebuilt with a bunch of new parts and liners to one that has had a few parts on the outside replaced.

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I could be wrong on this, but I've been under the long-term impression that LKQ is basically a salvage/parts reselling operation, and I'd be very concerned about their loose use of the term, "remanufactured." I'd be quite surprised if that was anything more than a steam clean, oil/filter change, and possibly a new set of plugs (if even that much).

This brings up a good point. Considering they are getting the engine from lkq, you may want to ask Jake Raby if he knows by chance if the replacement engine program he helped to setup also extends to lkq or not. I would also make sure that your warranty doesn't have a engine replacement limit and that you'll still be covered if the "new" engine fails too for whatever reasons, including what has been mentioned above.

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EVERYTHING I have read says that to be labeled "remanufactured" the manufacturer must do quite a bit of machining and work on the engine and it must pass OEM tests. What you are describing is "used". Then there is rebuilt. We are talking "remanfuctured". Is there a basis for your concern?

One additional note - I wouldn't put the LN bearing in until the Easy-Care warranty expires. I have every confidence that in the event of a subsequent issue (with any engine component) they would use this modification to void the warranty.

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Well this could turn into a semantics debate, but to me "remanufactured" must come directly from Porsche with a designated "AT" stamp on the engine block as they do to all their "remanufactured" engines. If the replacement motor doesn't have the "AT" stamp as part of the serial number on the block, then it wasn't "remanufactured" from the Porsche factory.

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Yes, Alpine is correct. My remanufactured motor was replaced under warranty and serial # has "AT" stamped. The serial number is just above the oil pan on the drivers side I believe. The dealer said ONLY the Porsche factory uses the "AT" stamp.

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Interestingly, I just received a call from Porsche. They called the supplier of the "remanufactured" engine and he believes the IMS has been upgraded to the LN Engineering bearing. I also asked if he would confirm the engineer really was "remanufactured" and not "used" before reinstalling into the car. He confirmed that they would go over the engine prior to installation. I may stop in to see it also.

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Memo to self: ask for paperwork/documents as proof. If true, then should also get a "sticker" and should also be registered with LNE.

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Ding Ding Ding! As always, if it can't be proven beyond a doubt, then it didn't happen.

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Rectorbill - I hate to be pessimistic, having dealt with after market warranty providers in the past. Here's what is most likely the situation: A) Easycare first went to Porsche to see what an engine replacement would cost. Porsche only sells what they call "remanufactured" - essentially a new engine except for the block. Remanufactured engines from Porsche for the 996.2 (3.6L engine) from 2005 onwards have a lot of improvements and if you google it, there are little, if any incidences of failures of those. However, since around 2012, Porsche no longer has any of these remanufactured units in stock, and they have to be sort of put together with a short block. The total cost is around $25K in parts alone, and another $5K in labor. Easycare probably realized that's just too cost prohibitive. B) So Easycare - completely within their power - per their policy which you accepted, can source what is known as LKQ (Like Kind Quality) which means used parts that their LKQ supplier sources from insurance total losses, or just general used part market. The LKQ supplier then sometimes will refurbish that used part for Easycare / insurance replacement at a much more reasonable cost. The fact that Easycare has told you that they have sourced a LKQ engine means that it's a used engine that may have been refurbished, and may have a LN bearing in it if they're saying it does. In any case, much like lightning usually doesn't strike the same person twice, your chance of engine failure even with a used, refurbished LKQ engine is very very low, so enjoy it, and drive on. Good luck

I would be pissed that your car has what, 13,000 miles on the clock and they're trying to stick you with an LKQ engine? As stated above that could have been pulled from a salvage/wreck w/120k miles. You don't know. I would go to bat with easy care on this. Get on the phone with a supervisor. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

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Or in the case of a warranty company they review the case and find a reason not to cover it at all. You are correct, but his options are either accept the provided motor (unless the Tech can find something demonstrably wrong) or pay the difference between what they are paying for that motor and the motor you want to install.

There seems to be a lot of skepticism on this forum regarding my "remanufactured" engine. Some say it is simply used and cleaned up while others may have referred to it as rebuilt. Porsche has been very good at communicating with me and following up on my questions. They have ASSURED me that this engine is remanufactured. Everything I have read on line says that remanufactured engines are almost as good, as good, and sometimes even better than the original engine. In this case, I'm told I'm getting an upgraded IMS bearing (supposedly the LN Engineering upgrade). Why all the skepticism? The only thing I don't know is how do I know that the engine is really "remanufactured" and not used? I can be there when it comes in tomorrow or Friday.

maybe the skepticism comes from the fact that the Porsche dealer you are working with doesn't seem to know it's *** from a hole in the ground when it comes to m96 engines

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I'm certainly no IMS expert, but I don't think they have treated me poorly. The only criticism I have heard is that they should have checked the oil for metal before doing anything else. Okay, that is fair criticism. However, my belief is that the engine was gone when I delivered the car to them. No one knows for sure, but that is my assumption. For me, it all depends on how the car works going forward.

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I disagree with KC, the concern isn't about the dealer right now since they don't have the motor and it wasn't their choice on the motor. The concern, I think, is that the rebuild and reman terms are thrown around too loosely so you can't just assume anything in most cases. The best you can do at this point is have the dealer go over it really well before it is installed even if that means you have to pony up some labor hours that the warranty won't cover. Make sure any issue is addressed to YOUR satisfaction before its installed. You might also take this time (again at your cost) to have some PM stuff done to it if it looks like old parts were used (e.g. the AOS, the oil level sender, etc...) that will otherwise be more expensive once it's back together. After that, just remember that you still have the warranty and relax I agree that it was probably toast, but checking the filter and oil is so simple it's just stupid not to do that before trying to start it. In the end it doesn't make any difference to you since the warranty company owns the old brick, but if you were doing this on your own dime it could be the difference of a few grand in core fees IF it hadn't been completely trashed before they started it up.

And we are probably in the role of devil's advocate here. We aren't talking to the service adviser or the dealership people like you are - we don't have to play nice. We are the bad cops that are saying "be careful or else you might get shafted by the warranty people". The dealership guys already screwed up by starting that engine before checking the oil filter or sump, and of course they tip-toed around that mistake rather than owning it. We are on your side looking out for you to make sure the warranty company doesn't try to slip one past you also. As gnat says, since the warranty company did not deny the claim, in the end the dealership's mistake didn't cost you. But had the coverage been denied, that engine start could easily have cost you money in core value. What people are trying to tell you now is that you really need to keep your guard up - assume the warranty company is trying to save a buck however it can.

my WAG on the "skepticism"......the warranty company's goal is to spend the LEAST $$$$ possible to get your engine running again hence the LKQ route. If they offered to get you a Porsche crate engine (not sure if those still exist), I am sure the skeptics would have been silenced at the outset. FWIW, if I were in your shoes: if an option, ask EasyCare to give you the max amount they are willing to spend, sign whatever quit claim paperwork and ship the car to FSI. Best of luck.

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In post 1, the Porsche dealer took the trans out, and checked it for damage. Didn't find any, but speculated that it was NOT the IMSB. From - A - Porsche - Dealer no less. The dealer sold you the Easy Care warranty and yet they are farming out the engine source to LKQ? Hmmmmm. Doesn't Porsche dealer have access to a reman M96 engine? Hmmmmm. Next, it's a "reman" but it's coming with an LN bearing upgrade? Hmmmm When we all KNOW for certain that PNA will have nothing to do with LN IMSB solutions, bearings or whatever. LKQ has a long reputation for providing used, thrashed, salvaged parts - but they are going to source a reman engine from Porsche, run it through LKQ, put in an LN bearing(whatever), and then send it to Porsche dealer for install in your car? Hmmmmm I'm sure I'm getting this all confused, and I'm out of line in my speculation. Either way this goes, I"m glad you aren't spending your money, and I hope the whole thing goes to your satisfaction. Will be interesting to learn that the "reman" has an AT prefix on it, and an LN bearing in the IMS shaft. Very interesting indeed.

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My understanding is no. As I understand it there are no more PAG reman long blocks out there. There are still some shorts, but they are few and far between and carry a "might as well talk to FSI" price tag.

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Ok, a short will still carry an AT tag and will NOT have an LN bearing in it. As far as what it costs, that's not up for discussion AFAIK. We're discussing the tortured method or path the reman engine is getting to his car. So he gets a short from Porsche, sends it to LKQ for jugs, pistons, heads, etc, they put in the LN bearing, and Porsche will bless it out the door? Hmmmm

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No, the last time Porsche likely had their hands on it was when it was originally built over a decade ago. This will (more likely than not) be a used motor that has been "refreshed". My bet is that it will be cleaned up and some external stuff has been replaced, but unless the previous owner did something then nothing internal will have been replaced. That's just a guess based on the price and source though.

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You may likely be right, but the OP specifically used the word "remanufactured" and made a point of it being at a PNA dealer. He also stuff our speculation in our noses, so here's where we stand now.

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How did I do that? All I'm questioning is why there is so much skepticism about this engine. So, I guess I can sum it up by saying that most of you do not believe that it is a "remanufactured" engine as Porsche communicated it to me. You believe it is simply a used engine that has been cleaned up.

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I think you are misreading some key points. The car went to a dealer. The dealer is working with a 3rd party warranty on his behalf. The warranty company is handling acquiring the motor. For all intents and purposes the dealer is no different than an Indy at this point as this is not what they would be doing if they had the option of following Porsche guidelines. As far as the term, it's meaning is what we have been discussing here. The supplier is using the term to imply one thing, but some of us think they are (intentionally?) misusing it. Only time will tell at this point.

I am confused by the acronym LKQ. Is this an actual operation that rebuilds/dismantles engines...or is it a term in the warranty contract that refers to Like Kind Quality? From this thread, it has been referred to as both.

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Good question. I think the answer is both. There is a company that deals in reclaimed parts called LKQ. I believe it also stands for Like Kind Quality as another poster reported.

I would ask the dealer to request documentation from LKQ on the mileage that this engine had prior to being re-manufactured. I would also request a few specific things during the engine inspection from the dealer, such as bore scoping, etc. FWIW, I bought a re-manufactured 5 speed transmission for a 2003 VW Jetta 1.8 turbo from LKQ and put over 100k trouble free miles and then sold the car with it still performing flawlessly. Honestly I think if you have a car that runs fine with little or no money out of pocket at the end of this deal, you are a lucky man! (Not that I predict problems, just that very few people have an IMS fail and don't have to fund the repair/replacement.) Drive it and enjoy it!

Called Porsche again and they have assured me again that this is a remanufactured engine remanufactured "just like Porsche" would remanufacture an engine. They insist that this is not a used engine that has just been cleaned with a few new parts added. I asked about paperwork and they did not know what would come with the engine. I asked about the LN bearing and if it was left over from the original engine or if it was new as part of the remanufacturing process and they assured me it was installed as part of the remanufacturing. I guess I'm all questioned out!!

Bottom line is the warranty company is going to do and pay the least out of their pockets to get you back on the road and give you a suitable replacement, and tell you what you wanna hear so both of you can move on. If you haven't gone on these forums or read about the engine, you would accept the replacement and just continue driving it without worries as you know that there is a total of 4 year warranty on it. So I don't really see the obsession to nit pick or over analyze this situation and get all stressed out about it. Now if it was a 356 or even a 993 and an original matching engine would play a big difference on investment or resale value, I can understand. However we are only talking about a piece of crap 996 here.

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I believe you mentioned the "new" engine will be warrantied for 12 months/12,000 miles - who is providing that warranty? Is it an add-on to the EasyCare or from LKQ or from your dealer (Porsche)?

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Engine supplier

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I don't categorize learning as much as you can to protect my investment an "obsession" or "nit picking". I'm sorry you see it that way. After all, I'm just driving a "piece of crap". Thanks for your valuable input.

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Bill - Alp was being facetious with the piece of crap comment. He wasn't speaking specifically about your car, but about all of our cars. The reason your thread is drawing so much attention is because you have probably one of the nicest, lowest mileage NA 996s in existence: it's a 2004, a C4S and has only 13,000 miles. If it were a '99 base model with 100,000+ miles on it, we'd just be saying "meh, just get it up and running as cheap as you can and be happy if you have a warranty company willing to pay any part of it." Also, the nit picking Alp was referring to was on our part, not yours. We've all thrown a bunch of issues at you to the point of overload. Personally, I think you've done a nice job assimilating that info and bringing them to the attention of the people you are working with. I still am not 100% convinced that they aren't trying to cut corners and blow smoke at you to make you believe you're getting something more than what it really is. But, in the end, it's your car, so if you are satisfied, then that's all that matters.

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I do appreciate all the comments. I'm just try to learn from everyone's experience. By the way, the car is a 2005....the year they transitioned to the 997, but unfortunately, mine is the 996!

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Whoa, whoa, whoa. My belief system isn't fair game here. I never questioned your reman engine until you brought up the skepticism, and I tried - without success to flesh out that skepticism from a consumer standpoint. Gnat even brought up another valid point in that maybe Porsche has no more engines to reman. I said before - we will see what we will see and it will be interesting. I hope you get a reman with an 'AT' prefix. It's better for all of us to know that there are materials out there avail when another engine goes Tango Uniform.

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Sounds like you win! I'm out.

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If you think any 996 is an "investment" you bought the wrong car, should've went with a 993. I would call any modern car a piece of crap(mine included) if the motor expired only after 13k miles. As for learning, if you would've learned before you bought your car, you may have went a different direction other than a 996 NA. Yes I sound harsh and yes it seems like I'm bashing the 996 but the fact that I still have mine and enjoy it very much after 6 years says something. Relax, and hopefully you can be on the road sooner than later to enjoy your car. I really think once you're able to drive your car again, you will forget a lot of this.

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For pete's sake...did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? As an "investment" I spent money with the expectation of an "enjoyment" return and not a financial return. As for learning about this car before I bought the car, note that I discussed this very issue with the dealership and purchase an extended warranty. I'm so sorry I don't know everything about this engine, remanufactured engine, and all the other crap that I'm dealing with. Someday, I hope to be as smart as you.

glad you are getting things worked out - lots of opinions here but i think sometimes these opinions get mis-understood. my take on it is anytime there is any change of engines in a later model porsche, it does take away from the top market value of the car - this also held true for air-cooled cars but they have gotten so expensive and rare(like my matching# '59 356 sunroof i sold)people aren't that concerned with non-matching engines these days. a 2005 C4S 996 is a nice car and rare - you may lose a tiny bit of value but like you said, these cars are purchased for enjoyment factor.

Porsche called today and said my engine finally came in. I drove down to look at it and most, if not all, of my fears are gone. I'm no engine expert, but Porsche looked it over and as far as they are concerned the internal of the engine all look new. He gave me a light and had me look at the valves. They sure look new to me. (picture attached) I also saw the LN label and the LN bearing. Porsche said they need $600 worth of gaskets to transfer the remaining items from my old engine to my new engine. I asked them to replace the spark plugs since it is so easy with the engine removed. My clutch looks good so they had no recommendations on other things to replace. If all goes well, I should have my car back by the weekend! Yeah!

Technically that is the flange and not the bearing Looks like you are making out big time here (compared to others that have suffered a similar fate). Congrats. Hopefully you'll be back on the road soon

Without re-reading all 8 pages of this thread, has it already been said that this would be a great time to replace the AOS?

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+996 It sounds like you might've gotten a new short block from Porsche considering they said they would have to transfer over parts to the new block requiring $600 in gaskets. If this is the case, I'm wondering if it was the warranty company's call to proactively get the LN bearing installed on your behalf to mitigate their own risks from having to replace your engine again in the future. I know Porsche wouldn't have done it, at least officially.

black rtv to seal the case or is it just me?

Need pics of the serial number on the block.

The black sealant could be the loctite 5900 (normal). One thing I noticed (quite obvious) is the right half case doesn't have the same hash patterns (and stiffening ribs) like the left one, which is quite interesting. I'm sure Charles and Jake can tell us more if they see these. Charles may even be able to tell us more about the case based on the IMSR sticker.

the hash mark case is the one they found in the river - kidding but yes that is strange/funky

Just for your reference, this is a '02 case. 0706152118b (Large).jpg

Both engines look like each half was born to a different Mama...

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I asked if it was a short block and Porsche said it was NOT a short block.

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I can't really see Porsche agreeing to retrofit a bearing on a brand new long block, especially since a factory long block comes with a warranty. However I could see the warranty company purchasing a new(or refreshed/rebuilt) motor and performing the retrofit after it gets in their hands. I believe several of us including any dealer you go to, have already established the fact that no new long blocks from Porsche has been available for quite some time now. That's why I asked for you to post a pic of the serial number on the new block. This may tell us a lot of things including if it could be a refreshed/rebuilt older motor. Also please clarify when you mention "Porsche", are you talking about a Porsche dealer, or Porsche NA?

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Porsche did not modify the bearing, and you are correct in that they would not do it. This is a remanufactured engine provide by the insurance company....it is not from Porsche. The engine comes with a one year warranty and then I would have an additional 2.5 years after that runs out on my extended warranty that I purchased from Porsche.

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I think you said the one year warranty is from the engine supplier...I'd want to make sure that the additional 2.5 years from the aftermarket warranty will also cover the remanufactured engine.

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I sure hope they would, didn't the warranty choose which engine to put in?

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Thanks for the clarification. Maybe it's just semantics but the way you intermingle the word "Porsche" seemed a bit ambiguous at times, not really knowing if the motor was actually coming from a Porsche dealer or Porsche NA. I see that now it's coming from whatever the insurance company picked out and deemed "remanufactured" for all intents and purposes. I would still be interested to see a pic of the serial number from the remanufactured motor.

Picked up my car on Tuesday from the Porsche dealer. I had them change the spark plugs and replace the AOS. The oil cooler and the water pump on the remanufactured engine are both brand new. Walked out with the new engine and the above for $450. Not bad in my opinion! Car seems to drive great! No more issues at this time. Thanks for all the advice!

Great news!! Hope that is the last of your trials with the engine, warranty company, etc. Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I know it was not easy or fun. Now go to enjoy your "new" car!

Congrats on getting back on the road!

Congrats! This kind of thing so rarely works out well so it's doubly awesome to have read your story.

$450 OTD for an engine is unheard of. Enjoy and be glad you have at least 3 years of sleep time.

Nice to hear that you're driving your Porsche again! How long did you have to wait from start to finish?

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About 2 weeks!