IMS Solution or IMS Bearing Upgrade

I spent a fair amount of time on the phone this morning with my local LN Engineering approved bearing installer. We discussed the merits between getting the "LN Pro Dual Row" upgraded bearing $1,850 or eliminating the bearing altogether with the "LN Engineering Solution" $3,250. He suggested if I plan on keeping my car long term I opt for the $3,250 "Solution" My 2002 911 currently has 81k miles on it if that matters. I have no plans to sell in the near future and use my car as a daily driver in good weather, driving about 6k miles a year. I'm kind of on the fence as to which way to go and am looking for some feed back. I've had my 911 almost 3 years now and have been putting this off again and again. My oil filters have been spotless and Blackstone Lab analysis show nothing going on.

If the dual row Solution had been available last summer when we did ours, I would have gone that route. We've had the car since new though and baring uncontrollable circumstances it will never be sold. Outside of the Solution, the bearing is (now) a serviceable part. I believe LN says 5 years or 50k on theirs. Depending on how you drive that 50k could line up well with needing a new clutch (though at 30k over 5 years you'd have to be ******* it pretty hard) or it could mean that you are replacing a clutch when a lot of meat is left on it or paying for an extra transmission drop between bearings. The other benefit of having the Solution done by a certified installer is that you should have little concern about many of the other failure modes since they go through it pretty closely and won't install the Solution if anything isn't right. When it's time for me to do it again in 2020 (doubt we'll hit 50k by then) I'll reevaluate the field at that time, but right now the Solution would be my choice.

single row pro 6yrs/75k replacement interval. Make sure you read every single word on this page before you make an informed decision. It's been updated recently. http://imsretrofit.com/ims-101/ Also pay attention to "Preferred installer" vs "Certified" http://imsretrofit.com/preferred-installers/

Thanks for the correction Ahsai, thought it was 5/50 for some reason. He still isn't going to hit it milage-wise so when to change the clutch will still be a consideration.

If I go with the single row replacement I'll get the clutch done then as he says he'll do the IMS, RMS, clutch and oil change for $2,500. So I'd likely do the A/O separator and new plugs etc while the engine is out. $3,250 for "The Solution" would eat up most of my budget so don't think I'd get clutch as well. How much added value is there in the car after having "The Solution" done?

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I will read it thank you. My installer is a "preferred" not "certified" but geography keeps me from going elsewhere.

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The engine doesn't have to come out for the IMSB to be replaced, just the transmission. As such, the AOS and plugs/coils don't see any real savings from doing at the same time due to shared labor. I can't say I've seen one for sale so I don't know of hard numbers. I think the person that goes the Solution route is generally the one that intends to keep the car for a long time. I can't imagine that it wouldn't add some value especially if it was done by a certified shop, but I'd expect maybe a 50% return at best. Probably less than 25% though would be a safer bet. In the short term the Solution, I think, doesn't make sense. It certainly adds peace of mind which is difficult to price, but unless you are going to likely keep the car long enough to do another 2 or 3 IMSB replacements (12 years? 150k?) then you are just buying it for the next owner (which is a nice thing to do, just not financially sound).

Why not call Jake @ Flat 6 and get his opinion. I just had the solution done by Flat 6 and would say if you have the means, get it to him for the work. Absolutely unparalleled service and communication from them. They have ways of shipping cars to and from their shop.

I doubt it would add any value to the car but would add peace of mind.

You will get many different opinions on this issue. I bought a low mileage 02 about 2 and a half years ago. Single row, not driven much. Made my decision to send it to Jake for a permanent fix with the IMS Solution. I don't think about it anymore and if I ever do sell it I took corrective action to eliminate the issue. Do I think I am going to get my money back? I don't know, but I didn't do it for that reason. It is not an investment to me, just a great driving experience. I have an engineering degree and see things black and white. Just me. Others can decide for themselves. I do think it is great that options are out there as not too many years ago this wasn't the case.

I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars in my last 10 years doing "preventative maintenance" on sports cars with known problems.... I have a best friend who purchases almost the same car I do and he has never done any preventative maintenance. Neither of our cars have ever had a problem... so for the first time in my life, I think I am just going to continue driving my car until I feel the need to do a clutch, RMS and IMS all at once. But for now, I am just going to ignore this for the first time in 10 years......I get way to caught up in problems that COULD occur from internet reading

+1 for the Solution....

I had a failure last year (2003 C2). Once I got my head around the idea that I would lay out the benjamins to have it fixed (it has low mileage) and continue my plan to keep it indefinitely, two decisions seemed to me to be no-brainers - 1. Go from 3.6 litres to 3.8 on the new cylinder sleeves (exact same cost); 2. The Solution. I haven't looked back.

Lots of different flavors of Kool-aid to drink

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+1

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I know where you're coming from and part of me is certain a failure will never happen to me. But if it did I'm in no position to fork over $10-$20k for a replacement. I'll have a $5k roller on my hands and insufficient funds to repair it. I do on the other hand have the $3,250 right now to do the IMS Solution. It stings to dish out that kind of cash to avoid a problem that in all likelihood will never occur. But I'm not in a position to take that chance.

3250 seems high to me. I would like to see a detailed quote.

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There is a detailed quote on the Flat Six Innovations website and their price to do this is more like $4200.

I went the dual row pro I didn't know of the solution at the time. I'm not unhappy with my decision though. For me personally I'd like to see a solution without an external oil feed line. When it comes time to replace it ill more than likely go down the solution route if I decide to keep the car. Both are very good solutions anyway. IMO you won't get any value added for the solution unless you sell to an avid 996 enthusiast. To the average person IMO they would just consider the upgrade as a good thing rather then solution vs upgraded bearing

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Thats more than just the retrofit process. It includes pre and post evaluations, and other work. We will not do this any other way. More than likely you are comparing apples to grapefruits, but don't know it. In 2016 we started doing the preventative work a la carte, rather than with packages. This way we offer 4 tiers of service, or the owner can add other items they may want addressed, or only have the IMS Solution installed. With packages we constantly found ourselves removing items from the package, because the car had already had some of the work done. That wasn't the case when we structured program, and these cars were virgins. We have a Boston Mass car on site waiting for its turn next week for the IMS Solution, we see a ton of Massachusetts cars. Then that means he has simply paid to be listed on the LN website. He has not been invited to the Certification program, has not been trained, and has not been evaluated. The Certified Installers are all of the above, and they must conform to a specific Code of Conduct that governs how their work is done. Each install is graded, and they must submit paperwork for each and every install to be entered into the database. I handle the Certification program personally, and have evaluated every Certified Installer to date.

I'm not the average DIY guy. I've been working on my own cars for over 40 years. I have a shop and a lift and a ton of experience. I did my own install of the Dual Row Pro at around 60K miles. The LN parts and tools are incredible. The customer support was fabulous. The quality alone made me feel I did the right thing even though the stock bearing still looked really good. If you're keeping the car, in my opinion its worth it. I have about 4K on my install and I'm not at all worried about a blown motor anymore.

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Jake - I do know that your scope of work is greater than just supply and installation of the Solution and I respect your approach. I should have provided a little more verbiage to go with my link. I was primarily trying to illustrate that the Solution is more involved in both the parts (scope and cost) and in the installation which is also more involved so the $3200 that had been quoted wasn't some crazy high price for this real "solution".

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Thanks.. I knew where you were coming from. 3,200 is too cheap for an IMS Solution retrofit. The parts alone cost 1/2 that amount. At that price there's no way the engine is being pre- qualified. They have to be simply doing the work as quickly as possible, and jamming it out. That kind of effort is what leads to problems. Its what kills engines.

Jake - How is Jeff @ Kraftwerks in Ohio scoring? He just performed the solution on my C4S. I hope he got a 100% on mine ;-)

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He's at 100%.. If he wasn't, he'd be out the door! We extend one chance, if a Certified Installer makes one bad judgment call, fails to qualify one engine, or does not follow the Code Of Conduct, they are gone in 60 seconds.

Hi Jake I went to the IMS Solution site and saw that it looks like the Solution uses the LN spin on filter adaptor that has been drilled and tapped for the feed line. Do you do this at the shop or is this done on the production line? The reason I ask is that I all ready have the adpater.

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Incorrect. The filter adaptor is completely different than the LN unit that you already have. The two use a different filter, and the unit for the IMS Solution is internally machined to offer just filtered oil to the IMS Solution. To do this the design of the housing had to change, as the filtered oil comes from the center of the filter. For this reason simple drilling and tapping will not work, as this will provide non- filtered oil to the IMS Solution. The adaptors are specifically made for the IMS Solution, and are included as another form of novel art in US Patent 8,992,089 B2. Each IMS Solution kit includes this Spin On Filter Adaptor; if you already have the standard LN unit, it can be sold on Ebay or here on the forums :-)

I know the price of the "IMS Solution" includes the spin on oil filter adapter. But am wondering if I opt out for the "IMS Pro Single Row Dual" instead does the cost of that install ($1,850) include the spin on adapter as well?

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No. The single row pro is a separate product. It does not depend on the spin on filter adaptor to function, like the IMS Solution. It would be up to the installer to include the spin on filter adaptor at the time of your retrofit.

While we are asking questions of Jake, I have the spin on filter adapter for my 99 C2. Is the filter advertised on the LN site the only filter I should use? Is it the best? Are there others just as good? If so what do you recommend? TIA

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Follow all directives. The products were developed with certain filters and etc, and if these are not utilized, all of the developmental efforts are wasted.

Jake, Thanks! Will do.

After going back and forth I've decided to go with the LN Bearing upgrade vs. " The Solution". My logic being with the miles my car currently has (81k) with me averaging 6k miles a year by the time 6 years has past my 996 will have around 120k on it which limits its appeal in the eyes of most buyers. If it had something like 40k currently on it I might have opted for " The Solution"

I would say at least get the single row pro.

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That is what I'm getting.

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Being decisive is a good thing. The reason why different products, at different price points have been developed, and offered through LN has been to give purchasers options and different price points. Though the IMS Solution sales have doubled every year since its public introduction in 2012 (due to word of mouth, a flawless reputation, and more people appreciating the simplicity) , its not for everyone, generally those that don't plan on keeping the car forever, or at least several years.

[QUOTE.....I get way to caught up in problems that COULD occur from internet reading[/QUOTE] Quote of the century.......applies to just about everything you can think of from IMS bearing problems to the next giant meteorite about to slam into the Earth. Actually, come to think about it, the meteorite thing and a failing IMS are just about as bad as one another!

Actually they don't compare.. The giant meteorite doesn't cost you anything.. It just wipes out the world, and the human race.

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Kinda like, "we could give you the cure for cancer for a $10 injection, or if you just want to live three more years, just take these pills for $3." Such unethical business logic when you are talking about the life of the car.

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What's unethical about offering different options based on price point and features? Seems pretty ethical to me when the price of the most and least expensive of these options is almost 1,000.00 The IMS solution is a very expensive component to manufacture due to the internal pathways inside the flange, coupled to the fact that the DLC coating process squires the flanges to be shipped to France for the procedure to be applied. Ship 1,000 of those flanges to France and see what that costs for a round trip. Keep hating vendors.. But when you do it, review your options if vendors didn't exist.

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For such a smart person, you still missed the point.

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Never claimed to be smart.. If I was that smart I wouldn't be posting here. So, I guess I totally missed your point, which is probably a good thing, as it would probably just **** me off anyway.

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Porcar probably didn't bother to read why I came to the decision to go with the less expensive fix. And how one can compare a car repair to a cure for cancer is beyond me.

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No, unethical would be promoting the $3 option as just as good as the $10 option. That hasn't been done here. No one has claimed the ceramic bearing to be just as good as the Solution. Your analogy is further flawed by your over simplification of the cost involved. Anyone can come up with $7 to save their own life, $700+ is more challenging for some and impossible for others. Finally you are making a comparison against something that the majority of people want to keep their entire life (their health) against the long term viability of something most people don't hang onto long term (a car).

I have over a decade of my life invested in the IMS Solution. I worked until my hands bled to build the first one. None of that is considered, though. Thats what I am expected to do.

Can't please everybody... 😎 F S I is no doubt one of the best things that could have happened to the M96.

I'm certain many readers appreciate your posts, I know I do

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Don't hate vendors at all. Vendors make things better for everyone. Nobody here has ever questioned your intelligence, ingenuity, workmanship or dedication to the industry, nor should they ever. What I am is annoyed that I have an LN temporary bearing on my car that I don't feel was advertised as a "short term" fix at the time. Now that you have what you comfortably feel is a permanent solution, I just don't see why xx wouldn't want to do everything possible to keep these cars on the road for future enthusiasts to enjoy. That would be only installing the solution.

Wow. I guess that I really didn't get that point! Thanks.

Jake, Being new to Porsche and the 996 I can only say how thankful I am for your efforts and your products. The first thing I did after purchasing my 1999 996 C2 is purchase your products and install them ASAP. I did my research and realized because of your innovations I could own this model of car and it could be reliable with your help.Thank you. That is what everyone who owns one of these vehicles should do, thank you for everything.

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+1

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I am certainly appreciative of the FSI solutions you have made for my Porsche and I feel better each time i start my 996 having the FSI angel over my shoulder.

What I am is annoyed that I have an LN temporary bearing on my car that I don't feel was advertised as a "short term" fix at the time. Now that you have what you comfortably feel is a permanent solution, I just don't see why xx wouldn't want to do everything possible to keep these cars on the road for future enthusiasts to enjoy. That would be only installing the solution.[/QUOTE] I don't consider 6 years 75k miles to be "short term" for that reason plus a lack of funds at this time I opted for the less expensive of my options.