Is this 996 C4S worth buying?

Ever since I was little, I've obsessed about owning a Porsche. I live in Chicago and drive a 1998 4Runner. The car has run without worry or significant cost over the past decade of ownership. Sadly the car has also run without any fun. I have never owned a Porsche before, but am finally in the position to buy a used one. I have decades of drooling over Porsches in magazines and reading message boards, so I feel well versed. Now that I'm serious about owning one, I've done countless more hours of research and narrowed down the car I want to a 996. It blends "affordability" with daily driver comforts. I drive 300 miles/week for work and being in Chicago, we have our fair share of poor rain/sleet/snow/ crap weather. I thought I was set on a Carrera 2, but a dealer recently listed a C4S for sale, which I drove today. The car is a 2 owner 2004 C4S, with 79,700 miles. Car had IMS failure in 2008 and Porsche replaced the engine and clutch kit at that time. Was told at dealer that improved IMS bearing was installed, but no LN Engineering or other retrofit. Nothing done for RMS outside new engine. In 2012 it was reported the clutch needed significant effort to depress and the car received a clutch replacement at 60,000 miles. Now apparently there's no issue and felt good during test drive. Features and issues w/ car: 1/ Car pulls slightly to the right when driving (allignment?) 2/ Right taillight has broken screw mount and wobbles in place 3/ Fabspeed aftermarket exhaust (which looks like has some corrosion). Car comes with OEM catalytic converters and exhaust 4/ Fabspeed intake 5/ Small scratch on front bumper 6/ Trunk decklid doesn't stay up 7/ Rear engine decklid hard to open 8/ Emblem on shift **** fell off 9/ Drivers door compartment piece fell off 10/ Rear seat missing piece on back to help fold it down 11/ Drivers seat worn (realized this is somewhat normal) 12/ Leather on speaker peeling up 13/ center wheel crest on one wheel is broken I wanted a RWD car, but love the idea of the stiffer suspension and larger brakes that the 4S provides. Dealership is asking $32,000 for the car. Chicago city tax will add another $3k. Am I crazy in still worrying about IMS & RMS failure even with the replaced engine? Are the other issues I noticed standard with a 11 year old car or should I worry about hidden issues with the car? I feel like the price is pretty high, but dealership assures me previous owner was obsessive about the car and it's in pristine condition with nothing to worry about. Am I getting hosed on price here? Feel that all owners are obsessive about their Porsches and there are still too many questions about vehicle to make an offer. Any suggestions here are much appreciated. About to spend more money on this purchase (whatever car I choose) than i have on anything so want to be 100% confident in my decision. Thanks so much! You've got a great community and I look forward to contributing in the future.

Most of the things you describe are minor. The "major" item, a failed IMS and engine destruction - which resulted in a new engine has been done. You don't mention price, but if it's under $20k, I'd consider it.

That sounds like a $22K tops car to me.

It is definitely over priced. I took a look at auctions and 04s seem to be going for $27 ish. This particular one is high mileage for the year and type. The 2008 engine work is a good thing. I wouldn't worry about that. The other items are annoyances (except for the pulling to one side which could be simple/cheap or bad news). Having said that, to put right those annoyances could be expensive: leather repair, new gearshift, etc. If you are going to use as a DD you do want reliability and no drama so I would suggest that a PPI is essential. I would want to look for accident damage regardless of what the Carfax says as well what's going on with the exhaust corrosion and any leaks. Remember that the 4wd is really for performance rather than winter driving so you may want to look at snow wheels/tires.

Now I see the pictures. That exhaust looks nasty and the speaker trim would drive me insane

Seems strange that an owner that was "obsessive" about his car would let all those "little anoyances" go without fixing them...None of those things would be deal breakers for me, because they're all within my abilities to fix, but if you can't fic them yourself, it's going to cost you. It surprises me that a dealer wouldn't fix those things before trying to flip the car - they're the nitpicky kinds of things that turn some buyers off. In any case, I think a thorough PPI is in order. Once the PPI is done, you'll know if you can negotiate any discounts on the asking price. Good luck

It is overpriced. I recently did a lot of research on pricing when I had planned to put my 996 up for sale. It's not a C4S, but is a C2 with some very nice options, all little issues taken care of, very clean car with only 44K miles. I had it priced at $27K US. The C4S will add some value over the C2, but at almost twice the miles and several minor issues to fix, $32K is just too much IMO. BTW - my car also has the later M96 with the upgraded IMSB.

Lol dealer describes as "pristine" that car is as pristine as Bernie sanders is sane. Looks rough for its age, not a $32,000 car. Be selective, you have been patient thus far and there are plenty out there

I have owned my c4s for 9 months... It came to me with 119k on the clock... An LN ims... I had it PPI'd and it passed with flying colors...it is in much nicer shape than the one you posted... Has the carbon fiber interior from the factory... And I paid $20k. Mine is an '03...your car... Being a year newer... With lower miles and a fresh engine... I might go $25 to $27....that is it.

That C4S is definitely over-priced and the owner was definitely not obsessive. That car looks like it's in rough shape to me. It has cheap, aftermarket wheels and it needs new motor mounts. Not sure what to say about the exhaust tip. I've never seen one that nasty before.

Might wanna look in Canada with your current dollar and our average c4s being around 35k your money would go much further.

The previous owner is definitely not obsessive by the looks of the items pointed out. It's the finishing touches that make all the difference to someone obsessive. The exhaust tips appear to be painted and the paint is simply beyond it's life. The center console can be painted in the cars exterior color and the shift **** can be replaced. You could take the seat to a leather shop for repair and let them look at the speaker cover as well. I would look for a good/great condition tail light. You can buy new hood and trunk shocks at a reasonable cost. You can find wheel crests on EBay and other places all time. Yeah if the car is pulling I would have that checked but probably a good 4 wheel alignment would be in order. If you have interest in the car use all these items as leverage to reduce the asking price or keep looking. Either way good luck in your search.

Could you really live with that wood trim? Is this going to be your daily driver in the winter? If so.....I would consider a cheap automatic car and this for the summer only. If you ever way to see my car, I'm in Forest Park and would be happy to show it to you.

Do not walk away, run away.

Thanks for all the comments so far! You've successfully brought me back to earth from the excitement of the test drive. There's just something about the way 300hp pins you back to the seat after driving a lumbering 4wd for a decade. No, it isn't the car of my dreams and I can hold off until I find what I want. Yes, I thought the car was overpriced, but now I'm realizing by how much. I consider myself fairly handy (rebuilt my motorcycle) and feel comfortable doing some of the smaller jobs. No, I couldn't live with the wood trim. Or the cracked leather. Or the exhaust. Think I just need to get out there and drive more cars. Is this really that bad of a choice for a daily driver? If I'm going to spend 1.5 -2.0 hours/day in the car, I want to at least enjoy the experience. Besides, living in the city, I only have room for one car so I'm got to make it count!

There is no guarantee the replacement engine has a better IMSB than the engine that came with car. Briefly, my info is any engine from the same model years in which this 2004 is part of could have been the replacement engine. Thus it could have been the first one off the assembly line, the last one, or anyone in between. This doesn't mean the engine's necessarily bad. 1) These cars are very sensitive to the road surface imperfections. But a consistent pull can be alignment. If the alignment is off the tires can be worn to the point the tech may not get as good of an alignment. My worry would be the alignment is off because the car's bent. 2) Price a new taillight assembly. 3) I'd switch back to the stock exhaust system. 4) I'd install the stock intake system and air box. 5) The car is used. If small scratches bother you you are going to be disappointed. 6) The gas struts are likely shot. These are a DIY item. Parts cost can be a bit high for the units, though. 7) If this is *not* due to bad repair from an accident likely the latch is worn. These wear and have to be replaced. 8) Cosmetic issues like the scratch above. 9) See (8). 10) See (9). 11) See (10). 12) See (11). 13) See (12). The above can be "standard" for a 11 year old car, can be standard for any car regardless of its age and miles that suffered from the hands of its previous owner or owners. You want to do your best to make sure there are no hidden issues, at least none that can be turned up by a good thorough used car check out and a PPI. You want to make sure the basis platform is sound. The engine, transmission, drivetrain, etc. 'course, too many cosmetic issues can cost some money to put right. You want to make sure the CEL comes on when you turn on the key and goes out when you start the engine and stays out for a 15 mile test ride and a 15 mile test drive. You want to make sure the engine doesn't manifest any scary noises and otherwise runs just fine. In short that the car is in good operating condition. Later you get the car PPI'd and inspected for undercarriage damage/repair sign and for any leaks. As for what the dealer has told you about the car... Remember anything a dealer tells you is intended to get you to buy the car as soon as possible and to pay as much for as possible. The dealership is obviously mistaken about the previous owner's obsessiveness about this car. The car is obviously not in pristine condition. I bought a 2003 Turbo in 2009 and with just 10K miles and that car was pristine. Not any cosmetic issues at all, nor mechanical ones. For all intents and purposes the car was "new". But even a less than pristine car can be a good car. Without doing any research I can assure you the dealer is asking a dear price for the car. You have gotten some good input from others regarding the price and I have no better data to offer. The various cosmetic issues might cost more to put right than you might suspect. Some items may be out of stock and out of production. You won't know until you try to buy them. Oh, my info is the wood trim can deteriorate and in this condition becomes quite unsightly.

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My 996 is my daily driver and I love it every day. My commute is much shorter than yours but I often wish it was longer just so I could spend more time in it.

A C4S would make a great daily driver.

I too drive my 996.2 everyday I am in Reno. I love it, and I spend at least 2 hours a day in the car. I have put 20,000 miles on my car in the 11 months I have owned it. As a matter of fact I will take another 500 mile trip from Orange County to Reno in the morning.

This is a very good place to trust the feedback you are asking for. A 996 C4S makes a fantastic DD. I bought mine specifically to put long distance commute high miles. My drive was 140 miles round trip daily for 2 years. A C4S is a drivers car. Tremendously capable in winter with good tires. Crazy motorcycle like fun in the dry. A apex predator of a traffic killer. The C4S is not a garage queen. Since you are a DIY guy you will even enjoy the straightforward maintenance tasks. Get a good one and drive it like its a Porsche.

pictures cause why not

As others have said, it's overpriced for what you're getting. Keep looking - there are better cars out there. Be patient and don't lunge for the first 4S you see.

This is not the only 2004 996 which had the engine blown and replaced with a 2008 engine. Must be the warranty period and the new engines available at the time. A 2008 engine has the Porsche improved bigger IMS bearing but it cannot be changed without splitting the engine. That is why there is no retrofit in there. The dealer puts this into misleading words. I didn't follow the 997 (this one has a 996 engine) world too much but the bigger IMS bearing seems to hold up well in 987 cars. I would not buy a car that pulls to one direction.

$32,000 for that car is WAY overpriced. RUN. RUN. RUN. You could do SO much better just wait for the right car.

I'm a little confused. I'm in a similar position as the OP, looking to buy a 996 as well and I've searched for 2 months now within a 500 mile radius.... I've yet to see a decent C4S listed under $30k. In fact, for the vehicle OP posted, NADA tends to be high generally but lists at $30k for trade in value and $34 for good condition. KBB tends to be low generally and lists the same car for $27.5k I tend to believe NADA is closer to true market value as, again, I've been waiting for a good priced C4S to come along and have yet to see anything reasonable come up much lower than the price of the car the OP listed. ...to those who say "maybe if it was below $20k", "$22k tops" or "way overpriced"... have C4S' increased in price lately? Were they >$5k cheaper 1-2 years ago? What did you guys purchase yours for?? That may help the OP more with his search (and mine).

That's about a $25,000 car. To find better priced and better maintained cars, look for cars for sale by owners, not dealers. If you watch the market, you will find that some cars sit around for months and months without selling. These cars are either overpriced or in below average condition (sometimes both - like the car you are looking at). $32,000 is the bottom end of the 996 Turbo market - you can buy that same condition and mileage in a turbo for $32k. Well priced cars in good condition sell quickly. Sellers who are serious about selling and realistic on price don't want to screw around with tire kickers and joy-riders. They want to sell their cars for a decent price quickly and move on. Groovzilla sold a C4S recently on here for $19,500 - it was on the market for a grand total of one weekend. The car I bought in September came on the market on a Tuesday morning. I put a deposit on it that afternoon. You need to monitor all of the national cars for sale websites. SearchTempest will let you monitor Craigslist nationally. Watch the "Today's Craigslist Finds" thread here. I had daily "newly listed cars" reports coming in from eBay and Cargurus.com (got mine off eBay due to that daily new listing report). Lastly, if you do find a car you want priced well, be prepared to move quickly. Some people get "paralysis by analysis" and want to spend a ton of time deciding whether to buy. Some people expect a 12 year old car to be flawless. Every PPI will uncover something. If the seller is realistic in describing the car and it is priced accordingly, then don't freak out when a PPI says the car has some needs. And don't confuse a PPI with a guarantee that the car will never break. There are no guarantees.

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I think that the prices for the 996 C4S have increased in the past couple of years, especially as good cars with low mileage become harder to find. For perspective, I bought my 2002 996 C4S in early 2009. It had ~74K miles on the odometer and was in generally good condition, with a few cosmetic blemishes. I paid $28,500 for it.

Have a question regarding a PPI. I'm looking at a car for sale at Momentum in Houston. They are saying it has gone through their full inspection process. Should I still get a private PPI done on the car if I"m ready to make an offer on it?

The safe answer is "yes". It is money well spent. But if they just changed the oil (which I would assume a Porsche dealer would do) then cutting the filter open and looking for metal bits isn't going to be much help. If you are comfortable with it, post a link to it so we can comment.

I think I see it on their website. First impression is "How the hell can a Porsche dealer screw up the model name of a Porsche they offer for sale?" Seriously. If you need any affirmation that a Porsche dealership should not automatically be assumed to be an expert on a previous generation model, here's your proof. A 2003 Carrera S - really? Is JohnnyIrish their pre-owned manager? Definitely get a PPI on this car because you cannot assume their sales people know anything about the idiosyncrasies of this car.

At least it has the exclusive "split bench" rear seat option. Quite a bit of curb rash on the wheels. What's with the cardboard box as the floor mat protector? (again ) Not a lot of options - no aluminum e-brake or gearshift, no heated seats, basic leather seats. But it does have alcantara roof liner and alumalook gauges. Price is reasonable.

Yea, the rims are dinged up pretty good. I'm not overly concerned that it isn't fully optioned. Not real sure what they were thinking with the cardboard box! I can appreciate them wanting to protect the carpet, but remove it for the picture!! They've confirmed that it's had a recent clutch, but that the IMSB hasn't been replaced. I think I'll plan for a PPI before moving forward.

I lived in Chicago for 50 years, and I drove a 928, 964, 993 and a 996 C4s there. Don't believe that the C4S will get you through a REAL Chicago snow (you know what I mean by that); it won't. On the other 350 days of the year, however: Not a problem. HOWEVER : Don't buy that one. Dealer, until proven otherwise is lying. This looks, from my angle, like a poorly managed pimp ride. You should get a 996 as a first Porsche in my personal opinion, as the cost of entry is low and the C4S is a joy to drive. But probably not this one in particular. My '03 C4S was overpriced when I bought it this year from a dealer in CA, but had 47,000 miles, solid maintenance records, and appears to have had the IMS fixed with an engine-out fix after less than 20,000 miles. Excellent shape, perfect interior, and the front bumper repainted to eliminate scratches as part of the deal. $36k. I paid it because it had just the color/options I wanted, and frankly $2-3000 one way or another is chump change. That one you have posted is a great $25,000 purchase. At best. My dad told me when I was ten, "You never buy the first puppy you see. They're all cute." And, so too with Porsches. There'll be another, and don't be hesitant to look outside Illinois. Good luck.

No, I believe he's working at Sherman Oaks VW, selling GTIs, now.

I have't read other peeps' comments fully but $32 for that?!

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http://rockford.craigslist.org/cto/5253364145.html http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/5272820041.html Just a few C4S's I've found in your area from private sellers for comparison. Both under 30K and better taken care of.

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Can someone recommend a shop in Houston to do a PPI. How much do these go for?

No help on a shop. PPI should be around $300 for a thorough one.

The wheels look like Tire Rack's suggestion for winter for the 4S : Sport Edition Cup 4. They are not terribly light in comparison with the stock wheels. If they are indeed the winter fitment, the rears will probably be 10" wide with narrower tires. This works OK for winter but you would probably want a set of OEM twists for summer, and that would be an expensive proposition, especially for the hollow spoke version.

Is buying from Canada out of the question? With your exchange even shipping the car to me it's a better situation. You could have a turbo for the same $ your looking at in the US

Last year I purchased a 2005 C4S with 6500 miles on it. The car was in showroom condition and the dealer changed all the fluids, put on new tires, etc. This car has the leather dash and literally has no dents or scratches. Many of you will be shocked, but I paid $44K for the car and have no regrets. I drive it daily as long as the weather is good, but it will handle just about any weather if you need it to. This weekend, I just replaced the front hood struts as the hood was crashing down on me. I purchased the parts from Pelican and it took me all of 10 minutes to replace both struts. I don't recall the struts being very expensive. I love my C4S!

with the "hard to open engine lid", rear light loose, and the call is pulling... i suspect this is a bad fix for a rear end collision... most likely it is a cheap fix that didn't go through insurance and probably won't show up in carfax.

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+1000 on above Regardless of price, I would NOT buy this car. Why? Look at all those parts that broke that SHOULD NOT have broken under normal circumstances... What you have here is a car that's been beat up and not cared for at all. Looks like it's been beat up by a spoiled teenager who couldn't give a crap. Who knows what else lurks wrong mechanically? The speaker grills cracking, the shift **** missing the Porsche emblem (someone DUG that thing out), the door rests broken... really!?@! This car wasn't just beat up, it has been ABUSED...

Just FYI, I think OP has given up on the original $32k beater and moved on to the silver C4S in much nicer condition with a $27k asking price. Edit - My bad, just looks like Hollywood jumped into OP's thread to ask about the silver C4S in Houston. I think OP may have left the building.

The only building I've left is the dealership. I spoke with the head mechanic and he told me there was no reason to worry about IMS or RMS now that they've been upgraded with new engine. He said he's never seen the upgraded engine blow in all his years and he felt car was sound. As for the pulling, he suggested that was due to grade in the road. I called back the salesman at dealership and walked him through the issues I had with vehicle: aftermarket rims, exhaust, intake, trunk lid, lights, broken pieces, IMS... He didn't know what to say other than it just may not be a good fit in vehicle for me and that kind of thing is normal for a 11 year old car. And he didn't know they were aftermarket rims... This dealerships inability to recognize the obvious is mind numbing and frankly scary. You want to be confident in your purchase and frankly they leave too much to be worried about. Sadly I do know it will sell, and for a premium, but at least not to this buyer.

https://loeber.porschedealer.com/pre...42685/info.php Listing for vehicle. I'll never understand why any self respecting dealership would put their logo and sticker on these poor cars bumpers.

I mentioned it before, they probably put in a 2008 engine in 2008, and it is technically correct that most people did not witness the IMSB fail on that one. Did they document how many miles there are on the new engine and do that have documentation indicating it was indeed a brand new model 2008 crate engine?

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Could be wrong, but it looks like they dropped in a 2005 engine from the looks of the service records. Didn't see any other documentation stating it was a brand new crate engine. Replacement was done at 36k miles.

With a 2005 you also don't know which IMSB you got.

They told me the upgraded IMS, but without documentation I don't believe it (and as others have pointed out in this thread) the dealership doesn't appear to know what they're talking about. Just too many questions about this car to feel confident in buying it. I should have known when I first saw it there were going to be issues. Any dealership that slaps its sticker on the rear bumper clearly doesn't respect these vehicles...

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How does the speaker grill leather crack? It was all over the car, so it's not as if the PO's pants were catching on the door as he entered/exited and just wore away one part. Sun damage doesn't sound right. Maybe heat damage I haven't seen this on other vehicles so imagine it's not a common occurrence.

Laughable for that POS.

Holy cow that thing is beat. It makes you wonder what other things were neglected that you can't see. Way to highly priced given the condition and way too many risks/unknowns, especially for your first Porsche. You don't want a troubled Porsche being your first one and then turning bitter over the bad experience. Always go with your logic and not your emotion, especially for 996 models. Collectible Ferrari's on the other hand...

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Looks like dealer couldn't move the car and lowered price to $30k if anybody in Chicagoland is looking for a beat up C4S http://loeberporsche.com/preowned/Po...911/search.php

It's still not worth $30K.

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Agreed

Stopped by dealer again the other weekend and the car sold for $26.5...aftermarket rims, cracked light and all

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$26.5.. That is pretty much what I paid for my 03 c4s with 80k miles in Sept of this year, in the Chicago burbs. Also from a dealer. Mine passed 2 PPIs with flying colors, great service records, 1 (truly obsessive) owner, it had things like "Replaced passenger armrest due to squeak back in 2006..." and "Replaced cupholders due to scratches in 2008...". I do want to say that after owning 350zs, E46 M3s, a Audi TTS, RS4, my C4s is by FAR my favorite. Its not my daily but I have total confidence in it. If you really want one, keep looking and if you ever want to test drive another one or at least a decent example of one, let me know. I have no problems of meeting up somewhere. Good luck!