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YOUR RESEARCHPurchase dilemma. 996 or 997
Leading reported evidence
Replace without splitting the engine block in two
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Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
However, this larger bearing cannot be replaced without splitting the engine block in two which some consider to be a downside.
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Suggestion
It's easy to wash and wax a car before selling it and hose the engine down with a pressure washer; it's harder to hide the evidence of years of neglect if you check those places that are hard to reach and easy to overlook...
Leading evidence: 'Replace without splitting the engine block in two' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check those places' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
Didn't know the 997 used the same bearing in same cases.
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Suggestion
It's easy to wash and wax a car before selling it and hose the engine down with a pressure washer; it's harder to hide the evidence of years of neglect if you check those places that are hard to reach and easy to overlook...
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Suggestion
Had the same dilemma 10 years ago: super clean 996 C4S loaded or a base 997 for roughly the same price.
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Check those places
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Read evidence and context
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Suggestion
It's easy to wash and wax a car before selling it and hose the engine down with a pressure washer; it's harder to hide the evidence of years of neglect if you check those places that are hard to reach and easy to overlook...
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Suggestion
If you ask, the tech doing your PPI can keep an eye out for parts that have been replaced/updated (based on part numbers), areas that look suspiciously clean or atypically dirty, and other indications that something isn't right.
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I was hoping for some advice from everyone here. I've been in the market for a 996 and been searching and researching. I have read so much about the 996 and faults and good things. I have a budget of around $32k ( Canadian). After doing some searching I have my heart set on a C4S. I absolutely love the look of the wide body.
Here is my dilemma. I was about to pull the trigger on one of these C4S
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/van/ctd/5412135911.html
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rch/cto/5399069174.html
Then just today this 997 just popped up
http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/ctd/5454177775.html
I didn't think a 997 would be in my price range. I have never researched a 997 cause i thought they were out of my range. My first question is do they have an IMS issue like the 996? Are they much better of a car? I much prefer the front end of the 997 but love everything else about the 996 CS4.
I'm totally not sure what to do now. As with everyone else the IMS is a scary thought but not sure if the 997 is completely free of that or not.
Thanks for any input.
That was before I thought I could get into a 997. I just don' have as much info on them cause I was tunnel vision on the 996. I guess a big part of it comes down to if the 997 has the same engine issues or not.
The 2005 997 could have the same (smaller diameter single row) bearing as the 996.2 with the higher failure rate, or it might have the larger diameter bearing of the later 997's. Looks like a great deal for a 997, but personally I would go for the 996 C4S. The bearing upgrade is considered a maintenance item now.
P.S. I know the 996 pretty well if you want a second opinion on a local car. Either way, a PPI is always a good idea.
Damn. Didn't know the 997 used the same bearing in same cases. The one thing the 997 deal has going for it is a 1 year power train warranty. That helps a little. Can the 997 bearing be upgraded easily or do you have to split the block to do so?
Tricky - the silver 996 has been well maintained and everything done to it ...the 997 will have all the same issues as the 996 as it is a 2005 - but it's a 997 - different interior - outside body shape lights etc...
I would drive both and one will be the one you want... simple.
To be clear, only the 2005 997 has the same IMS bearing as the 996.2 era cars.
the 2006-2008 997s have the larger revised IMS bearing which has been pretty much trouble free. I have heard (read) of one or two IMS related engine failures in the '06-'08, but they are so rare as to be a bit of an anomaly.
However, this larger bearing cannot be replaced without splitting the engine block in two which some consider to be a downside.
You might drive a 996 and a 997 and see what you think. They are a bit different.
I think it is always best to buy based upon the condition of the car rather than year or even model.
Like Triple black said - if you want a second opinion i'm in Van.
The good thing about taking somebody else along who has a 911 already and is not you - is that we are not emotionally involved like you.
The Best Buy is the silver 996 C4S as it looks better maintained and all the weak points have been addressed!! If you go for the 997 you'll have to budget another 3-4K to get the same issues dealt with that have already been done on the 996!!
The block has to be split to change the larger diameter bearing. However, this bearing has a very low failure rate (this is what I now have in my car). The changeover to the bigger bearing happened sometime during the 2005 model year.
I agree with fanny bay, the silver C4S appears to be the best buy. Plus, the black C4S is a tip - very different driving experience.
Thanks for all the responses. So a wrench was thrown into the plans. I spoke with the owner of the silver C4S. He has had the car since 70,000kms. His friend who is a Porsche mechanic did all the work to the items he had listed. Here is the problem. No work invoices. My brother is a mechanic and he does all my work so I get that there is no invoices but i always kept all receipts for parts as proof. He doesn't even have the receipts for the parts that he purchased. Seems odd to me. Why would you not have receipts for at least the purchases parts? So now I'm not so sure what to do. I will go and have a look at the car but how on earth can I trust him? He said I'm more than welcome to talk to the guy who did all the work, but still. How do you know?
Thanks for the offers for help in going to have a look. I may take you guys up on that.
So one more question on the 997 engine. the early 2005 997 engine is the same exact engine as the 996 last model year engine? So all faults are still the same? IMSB, AOS, possible intermix issue etc? Is there a way to find out if the 997 engine is the large diameter bearing by looking at the engine code or VIN?
I second driving both and deciding. My friend who went from a 996 c4s to a 997 c2s regrets it. He always says:
He doesn't like the lines of the body over 996
Interior feels cheap
*** end is big and makes it feel clunkier than the 996 C4s
Not everyone keeps receipts for repairs. In fact those that do are probably in the minority. You have a set of enthusiasts here that probably do things a bit differently than the rest of the world would.
If you have a PPI done and it checks out, I wouldn't worry about the receipts!
As for the 997, yes the 2005 engine is virtually the same as the 996 engine save for a few updates. But all of the same issues *can* happen. But again this is not something that happens to all of them but the good thing is they can all be addressed in one way or another. I believe there is a way to figure out based on the VIN whether it has the larger bearing or not - it could also be based on build date but I don't remember. If you research the Flat 6 Innovations or LN Bearing pages they should tell you which 997s the parts will work on.
Good luck with your choice, both should be very exciting to own and drive!
Good luck with your purchase. I agree with the comments about trying to drive both cars and then decide. As a former 996 and current 997 owner, I can tell you that there are things that I like about both cars. My 996 C4S was one of my favorite cars that I've ever owned. I still believe that the 996 C4S is one of the best looking 911s ever made.
I find that the overall driving experience of the 996 is very similar to the 997. Both cars have the "Porsche DNA", and both will give you a great driving experience. The 997.1 feels much closer to the 996 than the 997.2. The second generation 997 feels a little bit more like a 991 to me.
If you're looking for a sports car that is a little bit more on the "raw" side, then I would go with a 996. If you want a little bit more luxury, then I would go with a 997.
Have you considered a 996 turbo? I really feel that it is the best value in a high-performance car right now. I would buy a 996 C4S or turbo over a 997 C2 in most cases.
**Word of caution to all Canadian buyers as well as USA buyers!!
There was a thief selling Porsches in a small city northwest of Vancouver - Mainly dealing in aircooled cars and advertizing them on CL as cars being located in Blaine Wa. and White Rock.
I can't remember his name but learned of him after selling him my 78 911sc 5 years ago. I believe he is still trying to sell aircooled as well as later model Porsches.
I will do my best to research my old emails and see what I come up with. He owned a small furniture store in this town and was known by authorities building a case against him.
There are write ups about his dealings on the internet and I have personally spoken to 3-4 victims - He has stolen approx $500K - He claims he owns these cars he's selling and buyer wires money and no car to be found.
One of the buyers tried locating him and was stopped at the border and denied access when they went thru his laptop and saw that he was headed to collect his money.
Do your due diligence when buying your P-Car
Agree with Fanny as well. Go silver C4S but Fanny and I are black averse.
Seriously, it is a toss up between which color you prefer in the end and a bit of cash difference.
I would stay away from 05 997. Their smaller IMS is likely why we see so many for sale these days.
If it were an 06 to 08 997 at that price, that would be a different story altogether as in bring-a-trailer, tout-de-suite.
Good luck with your decision!
It wouldn't be for me as long as the car is in great shape and it checks out. Sure, it's nice to have them, and some people won't touch a car that isn't fully documented. However, on a car as old as the 996, you can fairly easily get an idea of how well the car has been maintained, and your pre-purchase inspection can help you understand how well it's been cared for mechanically. If you ask, the tech doing your PPI can keep an eye out for parts that have been replaced/updated (based on part numbers), areas that look suspiciously clean or atypically dirty, and other indications that something isn't right.
It's easy to wash and wax a car before selling it and hose the engine down with a pressure washer; it's harder to hide the evidence of years of neglect if you check those places that are hard to reach and easy to overlook...
I started out with a 996.2...loved it but decided to go for an automatic and that put me in an 06 997s. Loved the exterior lines, the motor, the brakes and the tiptronic. Hated the interior and everything that went with the Chronosport package...19 wheels (no performance advantage), no spare tire (enjoy a long road trip and the flatbed ride home), and suspension parts that make a Patek Phillipe look like a bargain. I dumped it three months later. Now I'm back in a 996...took a 2000 MY with the 3.4 engine (dual row bearing, failure rate of 1% or less) and tiptronic. Love it!
Best bang for the buck. If you don't need AWD than the C4 is wasted money. If you do need it than by all means get it. As all have already said...drive them both...back to back if possible, and make up your own mind.
PPI it at a reputed place in Vancouver and they will be able to reassure you.
Coming to mind, Weissach or Juan in Richmond would be good places to take it for a PPI.
In your case, a PPI would be essential, in my view.
I drove both before I purchase mine, the 996 for me is the last old school Porsche more raw than the 997 when you drive it.
Sent from my iPhone using Rennlistedtrtfytj
It's not a C4S, but this 996.1 aero with taco wing caught my eye on the drive home last night. 110K kilometers = 68K miles, listed at $25.8K CDN.
http://www.companyofcars.com/used/Po...5c418a0f17.htm
Had the same dilemma 10 years ago: super clean 996 C4S loaded or a base 997 for roughly the same price. Drove both and decided on the C4S. Better brakes, suspension, wide body, full leather interior...basically a 996 turbo without the turbo engine.
Also bought mine (ex-US car) in Vancouver from a renlister way back then.
FYI: The black C4S looks beautiful, but if you get it, budget on replacing the climate control LCD it looks like it's failing from the picture.
I can't tell if you bought yet, but I went through the same thing last year. I looked at a couple of 2004 996TT Cabs, a 2007 C4 and a couple of 2004 C4S's. Ended up in one of the '04 C4S cabs. I was coming from a 2011 E350 Cab which was a really nice ride but too sterile for my tastes as I had a couple of 993 cabs that I sold to pay off my house and get something the wife would like more.
Did the first and decided to get what I wanted and yes I am still married, lol. To the cars:
I had to have a wide butt, as I love the hips. The 997 was nice, Solidly built, awd, and lapis blue, but less involving for the driver. For me it was a 996 WB and I got over the headlights.
The TT's were sweet, but both had issues brought out in the PPI's. Like all have written, it's the best $300 to $400 you can spend. Both of these were X50's so a bit more HP as well. Scary fast. I passed on both. Because of the PPI's and once I started looking at maintenance and related costs.
The NA 996 is just a fun car to drive. More visceral than the 997 and the MB. More driver involvement and feedback from the car itself. The 996 is closer to the 993 in driving experience but more comfortable.
Anyway, enjoy the buying process.
I checked out that car. It's a total dog's breakfast. Not a factory aero kit. After market. The side skirts were separating from the car and it had 12 accident claims in 10 years. Total crap.
Been out of town. Will be checking out the 997 and the silver c4s on Tuesday. Think the black one might be out. Little too high for me. Don't think they will budge past $35k. As well the car is VERY low. Almost too low. Would make it difficult for a DD.
Looks like you and I are looking at the same cars
. The silver one in Richmond has been for sale for over a year and one can find the old ads for it quite readily. The lack of documentation was a problem for me and probably most who have looked at the car. Curious to hear your thoughts about the car though once you've seen it. I hope to have a look a this targa on the weekend:
http://wwwb.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/...O&orup=3_75_26
Thanks for the info on the silver one. What's your take on the black c4s?
Indeed we are looking at the same ones. I saw the taraga as well. I like Targas. Let me know what you think of that one.
So I went and looked at the Silver C4S today. It's in pretty damn good shape. Paint is perfect, interior is perfect. I couldn't drive it as it's not insured but he said if I was serious about buying it then he would put insurance on it for a day and we can go for a drive. The exhaust sounds absolutely glorious. I asked him if it had PSE and he said no, stock but it sure sounded fantastic.
The lack of receipts is still worrying but he has his own meticulous records of what he has done and at what mileage.
One thing hat I noticed that doesn't sit well with me is that the where the front bumper meets the hood and lights there is a gap on one side underneath the light that isn't on the other side
As you are looking at the picture the right headlight at the very bottom has a gap between it and the bumper. I can squeeze a finger on there. Gap is not on the left side and I can't squeeze a finger in there. There was a small claim for the bumper $1500 when it was backed into in the parking lot. This gap bothers me. It's not hugely noticeable but it's there.
thoughts?
That bumper situation is definitely noticeable. Are you the type of person who'd be forever bothered by it? I probably would be.
I am not looking at black cars so I skipped that one.
Have you looked at any Alberta cars? I'm starting to..
http://wwwb.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/...&orup=12_75_40
haven't really looked at Alberta cars. Seems like it would be a pain.
Unfortunately the 997 was sold. I think at this point I may have taken it. Shame.
The Silver one is tempting but yah that bumper gap just bothers me
The front bumper cover is very adjustable - unless it has been wrecked and it's somehow terribly mangled underneath, you can address this with a couple of hand tools in an hour.
It looks to me like the right-hand (when looking at the photo) / passenger side light might be positioned a few mm further back than the left; that adjustment might make a significant difference.
You see that yellow semicircle on the right side of the display? That shouldn't be there and is a sign that the LCD panel is damaged. There are a lots of posts in this forum on how to repair/replace the panel.
I went through this process two years ago. it went something like this...
- looked at 996.1 C2's, lot of car for under $25K
- saw a C4S and 40th anniversary models, uh oh, budget is creeping up!
- came close on a silver C4 (narrow body)
- learned about IMS
- budget crept up again, started looking at 996 Turbos (yeah! no IMS!)
- cross shopped 997.1 C2S
- interior fit and finish of 997 seemed nicer BUT wasn't a fan of the front end (forced light spars that looked tacked on after the fact) and though the interior electronics would age painfully poorly
- back to the 996 Turbo, found one in Darth Vader scheme (black on black), large leather package, one owner and 25k miles being sold by a Porsche dealer two states away
- acquired said Turbo and couldn't be happier. more basic, but functional, interior that is very driver focused. absurd power, easy upgrades if that's your thing and I prefer the cleaner front end as compared to the 997. The turbo's integrated light cluster is a very elegant solution and really cleans up the front end. Leather literally everywhere - speaker grills, air vents, etc. is quite an experience. it still smells brand new.
TL;DR started looking at base 996 --> IMS --> didn't like 997 interior or exterior --> picked up low mileage 996 Turbo --> happy me
Thought about the Turbo but it is out of my budget. Here in Canada they are still around high 50's low 60's. Would be nice to have the motor without IMS!!!
Thanks for your info. I'm rather opposite. I like the 997 front end and the interior.
Since your turbo is about the same height as a C4S do you have any issues with ground clearance? Both C4S' I looked at have been lowered further than factory and damn they are low. That front lip doesn't look like it can get over much. Is it an issue for you?
Any other C4S owners have clearance issues?
I have an inclined driveway and have had no issues, but I am careful to come in and out at low speeds anyway. General driving around the front of the turbo is high enough to clear road bumps and speed humps. that said, it not like my 2 SUV's in terms of ground clearance but no issues in the day to day.
All that noted, I'd be very wary if the car is lowered. I live in NJ, our roads aren't that glass smooth and we have potholes that can easily fit a small dog or two (not sure why you'd put them there though, not really safe). it's a decent bit lower than my old 300zx twin turbo, that I never had to even think about.
Another thing I have noticed with these cars is that almost all of them only have one key! and 50/50 if they have the manuals. I don't get that. They should never leave the glove box. Sounds like a minor thing but I hear a new key is $500 and I guess I just expect the original owners manual!!!
About $60 to fix. Here's my thread on it.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ggestions.html
Yeah, many of the cars have only one key, which sucks. You are right, about $300 to $500 for a new one.
Here's a thread on key info.:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-question.html
I can email you an owner's manual.
Ok I bought the Black C4S. Pick it up tomorrow. What sold it for me was the absolute complete and meticulous maintenance records from the beginning. Would rather have had silver than black but this thing was extremely well kept. Has everything needed done to it that needed to be done and then some and all routine maintenance with a complete paper trail. As well it has two keys and manuals. Minor I know, but that makes a difference. Will post pics tomorrow when I pick it up.
Congrats and welcome to the club.
I happen to love black. Was actually looking for a black 996 when I bought mine 3 years ago but I found this silver one with all of the options I really wanted.
Wanna trade?
Congrats - did you deal with Renato at CofC? I saw both of their cars you referenced when I was looking at a Cayman they had on the lot. Who did your PPI?
I think you were right to not go for the silver car. Biggest red flag is why has it been for sale so long. Over a year I think as mentioned.
Join PCA! - tech nights, auto-x and great socials.
See you around
Yes Renato. Good guy
I had my brother do the PPI. He's a certified mechanic and has worked on many Porsches. Unfortunately we couldn't check everything but he was pretty confident in his assessment.
The Silver one has been for sale for a while because he doesn't have a single scrap of invoices for service. Not even receipts for the parts he purchased that his friend did the work on. No way I was comfortable with that. he seemed like a good honest guy though but no way I'm taking his word that all the work was done.
In contrast the one I bought had every single receipt of work and maintenance done. It even had the full inspection report from Weisach when it was brought into Canada and another from when the previous owner bought it. Very very detailed history.
