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YOUR RESEARCHYet Another Rebuild Thread
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oil still seeping
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Leading evidence: 'oil still seeping' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'oil still seeping' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check engine mounts and found them' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
They checked my engine mounts and found them to be in good condition.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I still have some decisions to make on the rebuild, such as whether or not to replace the EPS bearing I had installed when I bought it.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I picked up some well used 17" OEM wheels which I'll have refinished and will probably mount all-seasons and run them Oct-March, then use summer tires on my light weight 18" spoke Carrara wheels the rest of the year.
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Suggestion · Original poster
He had to replace some plastic hose connectors with metal fittings, replace a broken throttle body mount and disassemble and clean the intake manifold.
Replace broken throttle body mount and disassemble
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Suggestion · Original poster
He had to replace some plastic hose connectors with metal fittings, replace a broken throttle body mount and disassemble and clean the intake manifold.
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Suggestion
I have a similar issue with cold shifts, and though I�m mechanically sympathetic, I�d like to try a change of transmission oil to see if it improves matters (was planning on doing motor mounts and transmission mount and new shift cables anyway) but it would be good to try a different gear oil initially.
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Starting a new thread since I
found my builder
. Short story is I suspected I had bore scoring not long after purchasing my 2003 996.2. Nearly 4 years later and 11K miles, I finally got the go ahead from my wife to get it rebuilt. The engine has been disassembled and the pictures are a familiar sight:
Piston #6
Cylinder #6
I still have some decisions to make on the rebuild, such as whether or not to replace the EPS bearing I had installed when I bought it. My builder isn't too keen on it and says it looks like it's walking off the shaft. He included pics of it vs. a new LN:
Other than the IMS bearing decision, I've decided to go to a 3.8L - because who doesn't like more power? My builder will be using iron sleeves as he does on all his rebuilds. I'll provide more pics and details as the build progresses.
Who is your builder? From what I've read iron liners almost always fail due to different heat expansion rates. I would contact Hartech in England and see what options you have to get your case converted to a 3.9 L with upgraded aluminum liners. And they have a big bearing IMS which looks like a simple and permanent fix.
I'm guessing wet sleeves for a 3.8L motor? Run away from dry sleeves on this engine..
Even wet ductile iron sleeves are not without risk, there are very folks on here that have tried them. Although plenty of other engines have used them with success
There was a thread here that had a bunch of different solutions for rebuilts. If I recall correctly bodymotion wasn�t included. Would you mind telling us how much is it going to cost and where are they located? Thanks
Some updates from my builder:
New pistons are back from getting skirt coatings and high temp dome coatings.
Looks too nice to go in the engine!
Skirt coating
New Rods
Finally, the LN bearing installed on the shaft.
He has the original coating of the pistons removed and applies a different coating for use in the steel sleeves. About all I know at the moment. I'll be visiting the shop in a few weeks so I'll know more then. And yes, they are looking pretty! Would love an extra for my desk, lol.
Today I took the 1 1/2 hr ride northeast to see the progress on my engine and meet the builder Mike and his assistant. This place is for Porsche lovers! Anyway, I'll attach the pics I snapped in a moment. I do want to say I'm fully satisfied I'm in good hands.
I've been a bit concerned going the steel/iron dry liner route (thanks to this forum), but after talking to him, and seeing things up close, I feel great about my choice
. (
edit: they are wet liners
) He's fielded several race cars, and rebuilt numerous street/track/race engines over his 30+ years (including many M96 variants). He took me to his little engine shop which where he was in the process of 3 builds - 9A1 getting a valve job, a 993 engine (sorry, don't know the engine code for that one) and my M96. He showed me all the new parts, parts which were good, parts which were bad, etc... Figures it will be ready in about a week. I cannot wait. He has a strict break-in period in which he also uses break-in oil. Afterwards, he said any modern synthetic oil in the correct weight should be fine - they use Motul. The engine should be good for over 360 to the crank - more than enough for me!
Someone asked about the piston skirt coating - he removes the coating which is made for aluminum bores and has them treated for the steel liners. He also has some special sauce for the domes (no idea what it is). Anyway, on the pics:
New liners in.
New bearings
Crank looking good.
Old parts - some junk, some reusable.
Pistons
I think these are new oil scavenge pumps and water cooler?
Sump plate.
New liners and head gasket.
New liners again.
Awesome update and it definitely looks like you're in good hands. Huge kudos to the shop for letting you hang out and see the process. Some places wouldn't allow this and some people don't care but I find this stuff super interesting and engaging and appreciate being able to nerd out and ask questions. The power estimates look great too! The overall timeline doesn't seem so bad and it sounds like you will be back on the road very soon.
Very nice !!
Your cylinders are "wet iron cylinders" which are very robust, and not " dry iron sleeves" which have been condemned and are very problematic and the reason you have been concerned. So please use the correct term "wet iron cylinders" so as not to confuse others who are less knowledgeable on the subject now that you have made a good choice..
Looking good !!!
Hmmm, interesting. Here's the process us used: He heats the block, freezes the liners, coats them with an adhesive and presses them in. Is that how both dry and wet are installed? I guess I'm getting the terminology confused? Could you explain how you can tell they are not dry sleeves?
I'll be glad to since you are well vested in m96 and can spread good technical info to "newbies" who usually spread half truths that dilute and a lot of times reverse the accuracy of good technical info...
The difference between "wet iron cylinders" and "dry iron liners" ::;
Dry iron liners
are thin liners that are inserted ( by machining away some of the ID of the original cylinder) into the original cylinder, usually about half the thickness or less of the original cylinder. They are not exposed to the water cooling jackets (the upper 2.5-3 inches) of the cylinder and are therefore called "dry" ..
Wet Iron Cylinders
all the original cylinder that is exposed to the water cooling jacket ( the upper 2.5-3 inches) is machined away and the wet iron cylinder of full thickness is inserted into the case/block . The new cylinder is exposed to the full water cooling jacket so is called the "wet iron cylinder"..
You can tell by simply looking at the top of the cylinder if it is all one material ( Wet Iron Cylinder) or is a thin liner of iron in an aluminum cylinder being two different materials both about half thickness ( dry iron sleeve) ...
There are many many more technical differences between the two and the process for installing each ( which leads to even more pro's and con's ), but this is all you need to decern the difference and suffice it to say that Wet Iron Cylinders are MUCH more robust than Dry Iron Liners..
..
Even the stock implementation is not so easy to the "untrained eye". Unless mine is some really early '99 version or this engine has been resleeved at some point in the history.
At least Jake says here (
You Tube
) that there are no sleeves on stock version.
I could swear that this looks like a sandwich and there are two layers here - perhaps even different material - unless that is just some dirt that goes around
Thank you for the explanation. I've edited my post to reflect my error. I agree providing correct information is important and am happy to correct myself.
Having said that - now I'm
really
happy with my decisions knowing these are the more robust and proven
wet liners.
Build is finally complete! He had to replace some plastic hose connectors with metal fittings, replace a broken throttle body mount and disassemble and clean the intake manifold. Also needed to replace the clutch release bearing - clutch itself looks new. Next step is to put back in and work on a little cold weather-related transmission issue (possibly new engine/tranny mounts, replace oil). Otherwise, it should be finished by week's end! Also, the ratty looking hose is perfectly fine I was told.
She's home! I've had her home for over a week, but have been pretty busy with a conference in Atlantic City. However, that has afforded me the opportunity to break in the new engine properly as the commute last week was 2.5 hrs round trip each day. I have about 752 miles on it and will bring it in soon for the 1,000 mile check up. I have not been able to test the power yet as I'm limited to 5K (4K until 300 miles) and light throttle with varying RPMs. I'll provide more details once it's properly run in.
Awesome and congrats! Looking forward to your feedback on how the car feels after break in and overall experience. It seems like the whole process took about 2 months from start to finish, which is very good imho.
Thanks. My car was shipped off in the middle of July, so we are really looking at about 3 months. There was a back log of other cars needing rebuilds, so mine sat in the que for a few weeks.
A bit overdue, but my impression of the engine is nothing short of fantastic. The power curve feels very much like stock - just more of it everywhere. My builder mentioned to keep revs around 3K or above as "these engines like that". So, who am I to question that? I've adapted my driving habits to keeping the revs up even when just cruising around. While I do blast through 1st-3rd on most drives, I like to short shift 1st (3K) and let 2nd gear wind out through the range. It feels great as there's just power everywhere. Cruising along in in 3rd gear at 4K RPMs and then squeezing the throttle really puts a smile on my face. Estimated power levels as I gathered from my builder is probably around 360 crank. He claims his headwork alone is good for 18whp on a dyno. That plus the displacement increase and balancing of the parts makes me think 360 is realistic. One day I might dyno it to see what the actual whp measures.
And then there's the sound of course, which is great with my PSE. Speaking of which - the dash button never changed the tone, and it was discovered during the rebuild that someone had been inside the mufflers as there are wielded on sections. I suppose they removed or secured the flaps to always be open. In any case, the flat 6 sound glorious, as many of you know.
Finally, I was having an issue with the transmission which did not like shifting when the temps were below 45 until the car was warmed up. They checked my engine mounts and found them to be in good condition. It was determined the gear oil being used was for competition. They put Liquid Moly in it and it's a night and day difference when cold. I still need to shift a bit slower - especially 4th gear, when the temps are really cold and the car hasn't been warmed up, but it's otherwise fine.
What's next? A full suspension refresh and tires. I picked up some well used 17" OEM wheels which I'll have refinished and will probably mount all-seasons and run them Oct-March, then use summer tires on my light weight 18" spoke Carrara wheels the rest of the year. After that, I'll focus on some interior improvements.
Awesome update and congrats again! Sounds like the powerband is something that I'd like. Nothing crazy but enough to feel it everywhere and 360hp crank estimate is a very usable number for the 996 that you can actually use. With respect to the transmission and shifting, I'd recommend the Porsche OEM fluid for when you change it again. I'm not a stickler for fluids being OEM except for the transmission. I've had a very similar issue and using the Porsche fluid fixed it completely.
Sounds like a great experience, and to only have the car off the road three months is a real bonus.
I have a similar issue with cold shifts, and though I�m mechanically sympathetic, I�d like to try a change of transmission oil to see if it improves matters (was planning on doing motor mounts and transmission mount and new shift cables anyway) but it would be good to try a different gear oil initially.
Could you give us more details on the Liqui Moly they�ve put in your car ?
Just wanted to give an update on the rebuild now that it's been almost 10K miles since the rebuild. The power is great. When it hits 6K, it just swells with more power to it's redline. I really wish it had an 8K redline - it just wants to take off. I think that's maybe the work he did on the heads showing itself? Anyway, oil consumptions has leveled off. It's burning about a 3/4qt per 1K miles (Motul 5w-40) which is well within Porsche's tolerance. I may try the heavier weight Porsche Classic (5w-50) oil again, but I'm not super concerned. I did have to bring the car back once due to a minor oil leak or 2 discovered by a tech inspection. Otherwise, the car has been flawless and I will continue to rack up the miles.
Another update. There is no longer a leak, but some seepage by the pulley side. I took it back and after diagnosing it, they are unable to determine the exact location. My builder said while this doesn't usually happen, he's not too concerned but said I should keep an eye on it (like when I change the oil). He said to properly find it, he'd have to pull the engine and completely disassemble it. I can see why he's steering me away from that route as it would cost both of us time and money, so I'll live with it for now. Can anyone confirm some seepage on pully side of engine shouldn't be too much concern at this stage?
sounds like front main seal or lack of sealant between the case halves.
most likely the second option if he wants to take the engine apart. I�m guessing he replaced the seal the first time you went back?
the RMS is the Rear Main Seal.
if it was leaking, then you would have seen the leak at the bell housing (back of the engine where it connects to the transmission).
if yours is leaking from the front of the engine (behind the pully) it's a different seal.
Around 28K with the bump to 3.8L. My only issue is the oil still seeping. He said "they aren't supposed to leak", yet mine is and he wants to charge me to tear it down to look for the culprit. Otherwise, I'm quite happy with it.
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