When is it enough to stop spending 997 money on a 996?

Hear me out guys and I love my 996,2 Targa. But I am projected to hit 997 and beyond money in the next few months, My 996.2 is 20 years old and looking back at PO work on the car, its hit 997 money a couple of times, which means its been taking care of. In comes me $32k Purchase, shipping, insurance, fee's, etc Im at $38k. Recent oil change, Rear Tires, Coolant tank, Fuel Pump and Sender I'm at $41,436. I amazed I am already here, didnt expect it. Still the need the following: Suspension refresh AOS or UAOS Clutch IMS RMS While im in there stuff And add a Hartech engine? Damn we in very deep By the time I am done, I see 997 cars all day...Ownership is not for the faint of heat I know this .....Anyone else have thoughts like this

Your thoughts are similar to mine, but I tell myself that I would still do all the stuff to a 997 that I did to my 996. Which means at that point I would be in 997.2 or 991 territory. Kind of a slippery slope of what if that I have certainly done in my head. I could have purchased a 997 but I liked the 'underdog' image and the low price point of entry into a P-Car. Edit- I also believe that lots of the 997's out there need as much love (or will need it soon) as the 996's, in terms of maint/refresh on key components.

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The low price point is gone, I remember when you get an Aero Kit 996s for under $20k, now damn dealers want $40k+

I am well into 991 money on my 996 c4 cab. The $30k 4.0l LNE engine rebuild pushed me well over the edge. I got some Fuchs while I was waiting to add to the mess, then resprayed and PPF�d the frunk lid after a rock hit it. Nothing left to do but enjoy it. I tell myself that the analog feel of the 996 is more enjoyable. Hopefully it�s true. FWIW, my V12 Vantage S has been much more economical to own.

I just don't think about it because I like my car. I've certainly doubled my initial investment of the cost of the car. I'm probably around 60K ish at this point. But f uck it. I like it.

You are indeed at a tipping point with another possible $10K-$20K to spend depending on labor rate. On the other hand if you try to sell it now needing those things, you will be lucky to get $30K for it. I think from the sound of it, you should get your $30K and move on.

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Same here. I've been fortunate that in my 7 years of ownership I've never had any large expenses. If/when I do (like an engine), I'll probably sell it as a roller and move on while cherishing all my fond memories of it. ​​​​​​​

Your $$$ graph would move in parallel the difference is the 997 has a higher initial buy in but the same money could be spent on maintenance and modifications just drive it enjoy it I love mine more then my 997.2 Turbo S

Your entry cost into a 997 is higher and they suffer from the same issues, so your service and parts costs will be the same. Bottom line is you will have more money tied up in the 997. In the grand scheme if Porsche ownership you got a pretty good deal so far. But it's a 20+ year old 911, so you will have to spend money on parts and service to keep it running. If it makes you feel any better, I bought my 2002 in 2002. Over the past 22 years I rode the wave down in price and the beginning of the wave up. Oh yeah, i spend over 1.5x my purchase price over the last 22 years on parts, service, oil, tires and brakes to keep it running in top form on the street and track. Quite frankly, it's been a hell of alot cheaper than constantly flipping for newer models and a hell of alot of fun owning the car. I am 59 years old and figure I have another 20 years that I can climb in and out of the GT3 seats. Then my son gets it. In the meantime, I do a project every year to refresh and enhance it. The enjoyment of long term 996 ownership has been worth price. I have had too much fun with it over the past 22 years. But you may feel differently. No harm in that.

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Exactly The price of a 997 is at least 20K more than a comparable 996. And that�s for the.1, the .2s are higher.

Never. I don�t have much interest in the 997. The 996 has less nannies and weighs less. I admit I�d like to have a Metzger engine, but it�s also not necessary. The interior is simpler than a 997, which I really appreciate. New cars tend to stuff too much electronics that are really unnecessary, and are an eyesore at night. Sometimes, while driving my car, I can almost fool myself into believing I�m still in the early 2000s.

The premise of this thread doesn't make any sense - you own a car for long enough, you will eventually sink numbers into it that could have bought you something else. Try buying that something else, it'll have its own running costs as well and bump your head into the next price tier up.

Stuff that costs me money: Initial purchase price FSI engine "While you're in there" engine-related stuff Full suspension refresh Full brake refresh (coming right up) Usual maintenance items Stuff that pays me back: FSI engine Full suspension refresh Wearing out those expensive tires in next to no time The looks it gets when I take it to the food store Just looking at it Just driving it

Any old Porsche will cost the same amount to keep, to own, and to drive.

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Seems others had the same thoughts, you can always move on

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I have interest in the 997 as the next one to own as well....You realize they stuffed so much electornics in our cars that the false damn engine failure light comes to gives us heart attacks

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Targas are better at the food store, I can use my rear hatch

Yep. Here are the approximate costs for three main refresh/service areas if you use an indy. For sure the costs can be more or less depending on how far you go with replacing parts and quality of parts. 1. Engine Parts Refresh - $10-15k 2. Suspension Refresh - $10k 3. Exhaust, Intake, Software Refresh - $10k Don't forget the pretty stuff either. 1. Interior Refresh and Upgrades - seats, console, dash, doors, carpet, radio. ~$0 to $10k 2. Exterior Refresh and Upgrades - aero, paint, wheels, tires. ~$0-20k Someday you may decide to have your indy replace the engine with a factory short block or have your engine rebuilt for an upgraded power source. 1. Factory Short Block w/ Headwork ~$20k 2. Engine Rebuild w/ Headwork ~$25-40k You get the idea. Old classic sports cars cost money to keep on the road. If you own the car long enough, pretty good chance you will spend way more than what you bought it for to keep it running. But that's the price of classic Porsche ownership.

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Its time to work on the car and step away from the Indy.....That way I get more insight

Yeah, I've been dealing with this issue for some time: to keep the existing or move to an older, less computer-controlled version or a newer model. I came from the 356 and early 70s when one could purchase a used, somewhat tin-wormed running 356 or early 911/912 for a few thousand. Some were cheaper, and some held together with undercoating, fiberglass, pop-riveted aluminum flashing, and Bondo, where they became a money pit since reproduction parts varied in quality, and body shops had yet to implement newer technologies or their construction knowledge and a host of air-cooled engine issues. The early Porsches were less complicated but just as expensive to repair; it is just how comfortable you are to spend endless amounts of money and the level of mechanical ability that I am currently weighing. However, deep inside, there is a part of me that wants to sell my current steed and look for a ratty old cabriolet, strip it down, not a lot of insulation nor listening electronics, a simple manual canvas top, manual roll-up windows, the fewest of nannies, and an elegant looking roll bar into a 996 speedster.......with a 3.6-liter Mezger-engine-power....that is what I would build if I had the resources

The first rule of Porsche club is don't add up the reciepts.

My 1st thought reading this was your car isn�t an extension of you, it�s just a car to you. To me I�ve spent 30k+ into my 38500 car but it�s a 1 of 1 to me. I�ve also spent a year + on shopping both 997�s and 996�s and to me there was nothing better than my 4s for the valued price. Our cars are still a little more analog than the 997�s too. To each respectively their own.

For me personally, the only point at which I would consider swapping from 996 to 997 would be if the anticipated repair bill took me to manual 997.2 coupe territory, which is a whole lot of dough, honestly in a different league from what little info I have on that market. Obviously everything with these cars is subjective, but I actually prefer the interior on my 996 more than the 997 and I don't think there are significant performance/reliability gains to be had unless you step up to a 997.2 because of the DFI engine. I will admit I still like the more traditional headlights of a 997, but I'm not the one looking at those headlights most of the time anyways!

OP - We all experience the same causal duality you do. Schr�dinger explained it for quantum physics with a cat in a box. For us, as M96/996 owners, we substitute a few things. Instead of a poison bottle, we place an IMS bearing and a cylinder wall in the hypothetical container. Let�s call this setup Lagaay�s Box, since he was in charge of the design team.. If you turn the key, the engine is both breaking and not breaking at the same instant. You don�t know until you open the box. No matter what P-car you choose, you�ll always have the same box. You just choose a different �poison�.

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Huzaah! No joke. What my wife doesn�t know�

Let�s see�. in my 3 years of ownership I�ve done: 4.0 engine tiptronic to manual swap steering wheel swap 4 new tyres new brakes new struts/shocks new suspension components new stereo system (amp, speakers, head unit, wiring) new paint, new clear (and final flowcoat) all new light bulbs in/out rear wiper add new front lip rear view camera i�m probably in 991 territory? 😳😆

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Yeah. As the saying goes, "Don't ask questions that you really don't want to know the answer to."

Everyone views their financial expenditures differently , but my 996's are "forever cars" . That decision I made 15 years ago and any $$ spent on them is not viewed as "997 money" ..... 996 ownership can be as frugal or as expensive as you want it to be depending on your abilities and talents and level of "newness" you want to maintain.. but in general the parts of the 996 will outlast the parts of the older cars by a lot ...I remember a time when spark plugs had a service life of 12k miles, shocks/struts 30k miles , steering and suspension 70K miles , timing components 90k miles , valves valve guides and rings would be lucky to exceed 100k miles .....newer engineering/metallurgy/lubricants means longer lasting parts, but also add to complexity and sophistication ( $$) and even more so on the newer cars, but imho the 996 is the "sweet spot" on these advancements vs costs..on a sports car...

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Good advice. They say the same thing about boat ownership.

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Plausible deniability

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100%....Well said. I'm the original owner of my 99 996. It's my man cave. When I want to feel great, I drive the thing top down and I'm smiling (just added hardbacks with heat and it feels like a new car to me.) It's on the road at least twice a week. All mods are in service of "go kart" style enjoyment on PCH (Porsche Coast Hwy). It was rebuilt early at 85K for $13K. The car's value was rock bottom, but I did it to keep driving it. Tough call. I'm at 140k and it's still runs stronger than new. How much $$$ is therapy? 996 is mine. I'd rather just turn up the volume, hear the gears wind out, and just feel alive. All manual, no nannies and paid off. Some cars satisfy physical needs, my beater satisfies the emotional ones which you cannot place a value on. Till then...Take my money. (they do that's for sure!)

Quotes source post: 19472004

^^^This Agree. "Man Cave" says it all.

Only you can decide what your budget limit is on your 996. I started with a 40th AE and from there went to a 996tt. I missed the NA and RWD so I sold the turbo and checked out 997�s and even a base 991. In the end I liked the 996 the most and got another 40th and went a bit crazy with mods.

Man cave? I use the Porsche to escape the daily deluge of fear **** news, and politics that borders on the absurd...there is nothing more cathartic than placing the car up on the quick jack and wrenching......

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Sorry to say you dont know anything about me but this post....One of the air cooled 911s I had suffered from a piston pin break from the heat here in Az...Put a litlle fortune in that to know how it works and from that a lesson and a lesson that is coming back to me and others have had a the same thoughts. When the 996 came out....the 911, 964 and 993 were called analog as well as they hated the 996. The 996.2 Targa that I bought as you say is, "just a car to me" is a choice of mine that Im proud of since I signed up to Rennlist in 2001, in that time I have seen all comments bout the headlights, bumpers, plastic interior, IMS, AOS, RMS, etc and the "just a car to me" is perfect to me.

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I use to believe that but now that some German vendors are outsourcing to China? Even with a German stamp....Some of the parts are failing even sooner....But I get what your saying the OEM parts on my 73K still look clean and work

There have been some good points here. I looked at 997S and higher trimmed 996.2 C2 cars. Bought my car at $29k and it is a factory slate + full carbon + full leather + M030. Probably have another $30k in accessories and MX items, have $9k just in suspension(Ohlins and full refresh) alone. With that said I�m happier with the 996 and as others have said a 997 has similar �issues�. The next argument would be why spend 997 money when you can get a 996 Turbo.

The 911 is like a drug addiction and Porsche is the biggest pusher in the industry. No other manufacturer can get a human being to buy so much "junk" (i.e. Porsche embossed racing gloves, Martini racing suits with matching hats and socks, even boots) like Porsche. We are Porsche junkies. They started this years ago by brain washing every male child with those super cool center-fold posters you could tear out of those car magazines. If you lived during the 70s and 80s, every boy's room had walls covered in cool posters of rock bands, wrestling stars and sports cars...some had posters of half naked girls, but we won't go there. For me, I was glued to the images of sports cars like the Lamborghini Countach, Ferrari 308, and yes, the Porsche 930 Turbo. When I was a little kid, I asked my dad why every Corvette owner looked like the old men from southern Florida. He said, because only those "old men" can afford them. But every week I looked forward to watching shows like Miami Vice, Magnum PI, Simon and Simon, The Knight Rider, Dukes of Hazzard, and the A-Team, all because it was an action packed show filled with cool cars. Now, here I am living the dream, smokin' the Porsche crack, but nothing can give me a high like a Porsche 911. Pass me the lighter.

Interesting discussion, it all depends what you buy, what you want, and who's doing labor. 9 month total cash outlay $19,988 on my 2000 C2 cab. That includes buying the vehicle, the cost of the Quickjack, Variocam pads/chains/timing, new AOS, all new fluids, changing fan resistors, new exterior lights, new throttle body, Carplay head unit. Can't even get a Copart 7 for that. edit: Should add that I did a 914 restoration that ran a couple multiples of the value, I learned a ton but would not do that again

Perhaps just get some headlight covers and you'll have a 997?

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Im a simple guy that doesnt need a Turbo I am more obessed with the Aero tails, when introduced more than anything...996 or 997, they both look good

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Why? I like my 996.2 headlights

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You were probably just trolling, but:

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Naw Dave, my "trolling" days are over, this was my lame attempt at a light hearted simile. Did you know you could really go to any Porsche dealership and get a officially branded cup and saucer set for two for $69.00. Seems like a deal to me. I'm still hoping someone will gift me one of those Porsche umbrellas that fits in sill compartment. At $85 bucks I'm sure it's a little better than the $10 version at Dollar General. haha! Have a great week. Loved the interview too. I know the guy that filmed that one.

I want an autograph on a $60 Porsche baseball cap.

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100%...Something you can control without a boss or external issues. Just DO something without a team meeting! Our recent home came with a car lift. That was the "closer" for me. I do as much as I'm able, but at times (like a lot!) I lean on you all to go where no shop manual has gone before! Thanks!

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Agree. The car became my cable throttle "mood ring". I'm angry... it's angry, I'm chill... it's chill. Tag anyone? I grew up loving Aston-Martin because of James Bond and was hooked on American Muscle for decades. Porsches meant Drs and lawyers, only my wife thought they were sexy and dreamt of 911. I finally get her the one we have now for anniversary and she gets pregnant, but can't deal with putting twins in it, and I get the car back! Like you, Porsche is that "drug" of daily escape.

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My fav is still the $2,200 water pipe... Some may say I overdid it with the master bath & bedroom but it grows on you.

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I had two engines D chunk (12/98 99 996). They covered the first 40K and wouldn't the second at 85K. I now wear a welders mask when I open the "box".

[QUOTE=SoCal911t;19473178]My fav is still the $2,200 water pipe... They should have a demo at the cashiers counter before showing you the service bill. Love the bedroom btw.

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I totally get you because my car has Porsche aero but it�s not an aero car, my point was more along the lines of how the discussion on spending can progress into other things.

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Do you seriously have a "911 Toilet" ? Picture /proof that is your "throne" or it didn't happen ...( no nudies )).lol

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lol. No, I was just having some fun. All my terlits are boring, garden variety American Standard. Whatever model Home Depot had on sale a couple of years ago. And yes, I installed them myself.

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Oh ok ,,,lol,,,I just had to know, I should have said "911 Boudeau " because I'm sure that thing has a butt washer built in....

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Wow. Love to hear the story on both D-chunks.

There's a reason 997.2s are so much more expensive than 996s a 997.1s. People assume the 9A1s are cheaper to run and are willing accept a larger initial outlay. And at the end of the day, there is no such thing as cheap 911 ownership, unless you manage to buy right, sell right and slip between expensive repairs and maintenance. Many of us hope to be part of that group, few actually do.

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Yeah tell me about it the Targa is $57k to $60k or $86k for a 12k miles

Sure. But as an example, you can use any model and plug in the numbers, so let's use a new 992 is 200k plus very expensive annual service fees after it comes off of warranty. $30k 996 purchase price $30k engine, suspension, exhaust, etc refresh price $60k sports car thats driveable w/~$1-2k a year annual service $200k 992 purchase price $ ? unkown refresh costs $ ? unknown annual service costs $ ? unkown total capital outlay, but its Big Bucks all in cost that doesn't take into consideration depreciation loss. Nobody NEEDS a Porsche, let alone a classic sports car. But if you do, and you are concerned about total outlay of capital, the 996 is a financially viable solution. Even if you have to rebuild the engine. Just work the math.

A Spec Miata is $35,000. A track-ready stock (healthy) 996 with UAOS, sump upgrade and spare wheels is just north of that.

But which is more fun??? my take won’t fly here lol

Yep. When you out everything into perspective the numbers look a little different. It's like the guys that say if you are going to track a 996 you should get a 996 GT3. I love the GT3 and would love to have one. But the math doesn't work because it will eventually need a rebuild. Sure, if you a DIY guy it will be cheaper, but it still can be compared. $100k for a GT3 $40k for a mezger rebuild someday $140 k total $30k for a 996 $40k for an M96 rebuild someday for durability and power that rivals the mezger. $70 k total I'll take the m96 powered 996 path.

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Sorry, but that just needs a #manmath Not that I disagree, but.. well. It's man math.

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Easier to fit my kids in the 911. Groceries, too.

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Take a swipe at it.

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a. you forgot 10k suspension rebuild, 5k for brakes, 10k for various cosmetic issues, another 5-10k for misc. improvements, etc. b. that reasoning goes out the window the moment you sell the car (unless kept for 10+ years) c. new vs. used is an age-old debate

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A. Go up a few posts. The $30K includes that. B. Agreed. Same for any other Porsche you may decide to own. C. It sure is. Bottom line is you aren't buying a Porsche to make money. They cost money whether you like it or not. However, sometimes a real gem comes up for sale that you don't need to spend $30k on an engine service, suspension and exhaust. Instead the previous owner took car if it and did it all. So you get the 996 for $35k all in. But this is the exception, not the rule. The 996 is currently a very good deal for someone that needs an unnecessary sports car.

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We mostly agree. Bottom line is, it'll cost you money no matter what, and you have to be prepared for that. So will any 911. But making financial sense of spending 30 large on an engine rebuild for a 25 grand 996 is still man math . The type of man math many M96 owners might make someday.

Agreed. Don't know why anybody would buy any Porsche hoping they didn't have to service it and even worse, thinking they will make money. You buy it because you want a vehicle to play with as a costly hobby.

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^^^^ This ^^^^ !!! unless you are planing on putting in your labor and time and plan on selling that along with the car.....

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My honest advice would be to drive every flavor of 997 (and even 996) to make sure you know which grass in greenest for your needs. It's difficult to beat the driving experience of the 996. You may find a 997.1 or 997.2 better, or worse, once you've driven it. You might find a lighter weight base 996 coupe worse or preferable (the Targa option does add 155 lbs over a coupe 996.2 and 215 lbs over a coupe 996.1). If you find a model you like better, you may be able to find one where all the work has been done (since you usually only get a small percent of maintenance back in resale). Of course, you may end up finding out that the 996.2 Targa you already own is the perfect model for you, over the 997 and other 996 options, so then your mind will be far more at ease over the maintenance investment. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. That said, maintenance for any Porsche does tend to be "greener" than any of us would like .

Golf clubs are easy in a Targa. Tennis rackets, groceries, yada, yada. Unless you have an aero spoiler.

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Yeah, I feel you, I have the exact same thought. I recently (9 months ago) got my 02 996 TT. I really like the 997 TT, but at 2x the cost, I didn't think it was worth it. It is true that you can't include operating/maintenance/repair cost to this comparison, but it's hard not to think about it. Mine was a clean, well taken care of example with relatively low miles (35,700 at the time of purchase), but I'm starting find little issues that needs to be addressed, recent expensive one being second gear pop out. I've had it for less than a year, and the potential bill is already piling up. Yes, it is true that 997 could also suffers from these issues, but to a lesser degree. Had I went with the 997 would I had these issues? Who knows, this is something that we will never know. I knew maintaining these beauties cost money, but I may have grossly underestimated just how much. I've done my share of research, and most of those estimates were quoted before the pandemic. Since then, the price of admission almost doubled, if not more. So, it really comes down to passion, doesn't it? Non-enthusiasts will think we're crazy, and to certain degree, they may be right. As much as I love my car, it is a hard pill to swallow when it comes to the cost. My brain says, "no", but my heart says, "yes"! I haven't driven 997 myself, so that is the other side is greener case. I've test driven much faster cars, but the car that made want to actually drive was the 996 C2. Yes, I do like my car, but is it worth spending all that hard earned $ to keep it going? This is my dillema. @911Dreamer , your targa is beautiful, BTW. I too am a sucker for the aero kit, especially the wing. I always loved that 996.1 GT3 taco wings😉

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Don't panic my friend, the gearbox fix is permanent and you will never need to mess with it again. Like I said you can live with 2nd gear pop for a long time if it does not make sense to deal with it now. Meanwhile enjoy your people's supercar.

As impossible as it may be, I try to live within mods that fulfill a certain drive style. It's only going to be pristine to a point, or modded to a certain degree to avoid excess issues later. It was helpful to me to say "go kart" to the mechanic as a profile for mods which meant minimum engine work, and more suspension as I'm not looking at tracking or top end. Maybe smaller tweaks like aesthetic stuff, like a hood badge, hardback seats, numeric shifter or 997 airbox. I'm too timid to go modding performance to the point of not passing smog.

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I don't track mine (just autocross), so I really can't say, but $100K is probably high for a track GT3 and the engine should hold up better than you think. You get a lot extras that don't come with the Carrera, too. Sure, you can make a Carrera a track rat, but you have not allowed for the cost to get it there (think transmission for one) and you are never likely to bother seam welding a Carrera.

Where would these seam welds be on a street GT3? I think that's an urban myth tbh.

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Maybe. If it is a myth, then I bought into it.

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I hear you. For sure, if you can buy a 996 GT3 for a discount (track car or not) you are starting at a more advantageous and lower buy in price. But it's very tough to find. You can plug the numbers as you see fit. As an example, it will cost you approximateky $20-30k for a 996 M96 and $80-100 for a GT3. Big difference in buy-in capital requirements. If you are solely judging by financial outlay, the advantage goes to the 996 M96 of between ~$60-70K But you still have the same suspension, exhaust, interior, exterior refresh costs on 20 year old parts. Including engine bay parts that are not specific to the Mezger. No advantages here on either car. Replacement parts and service cost alot of money. Good news is that with the GT3 you don't have to replace the IMSB, but you still have to do the clutch and flywheel. So you save $2-3k with the GT3 engine since you dont have to replace the imsb. Advantage of ~$2-3k to GT3. Yeah, if you are going to track the 996 M96, you gotta bolt on a better AOS and oil pan/sump. But you gotta pin your cooling system in the GT3. Net you are in an extra ~$3k with the 996 M96. Quality rebuilds will run you the same. But they will both eventually need to be rebuilt. Most likely the M96 sooner than the Mezger. With the M96 rebuild you can boost the power and durability to get GT3 power specs. No advantage to either in a cost stand point. Depending on the condition of the mezger and it's previous usage conditions, the timing of the rebuild may be the same for both or much later with the Mezger. So the outlay of financial capital need for the Mezger rebuild may be a number of years later than the M96. Or maybe not. But I would give the advantage to the Mezger on timing. Any way you want to slice it, the 996 M96 car is still substantially cheaper from a cash outlay stand point to own over time. What makes the GT3 attractive is that it is a GT3, so it may appreciate faster than the 996 M96 making up for the large cost differential over the next 10-20 years. iImportantly, I am not saying the 996 M96 is better than the 996 GT3. I am saying that the financial commitment on a 20 year old 996 is less all in with a 996 M96 than a 996 GT3. It was a different story 10 and even 20 years ago when they were new. But today, the 996 M96 has depreciated massively changing the outcome of the equation Either way, any Porsche is a financial commitment. Question is what commitment is any owner or buyer willing to make. It's a personal decision.

When I first bought my 996 for $20K, someone was selling their GT3 for $60K and he told me I would be better off just buying his track toy GT3. Now I've spent that much, and a little more, on my 996, but I have a fresh engine with more HP than his stock GT3 had and I have a fresh suspension. I'm pretty happy that I stuck with a base 996. I'd rather build than buy. I had a blast picking exactly the parts I wanted to use.

I recently purchased a 2002 C4S and while the price was relatively much cheaper compared to my previous 911s, I didn't expect to spend $37K in repairs/required refresh the first month of ownership. My current initial cost of ownership is just shy of $90K. Will probably need another $20K for a future PCCM+, exhaust system, and short shifter upgrades. For sure not the amount of money I planned for a "cheap" and old 911. LOL

You must have replaced everything. If you go first class with parts and service it's easy to hit $30k with the refresh (engine, exhaust, suspension, etc). Love to know what you did for $37! Maybe I am missing something good!

If you fail to plan then plan to fail. If you don't have a budget in mind before buying the car then enjoy the ride down the slippery slope. The next owner will certainly benefit from your hard earned dollars spent if you sell it. I recommend keeping all 996's alive and spending all the monies on them. They are the best water cooled gen hands down.

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I would love to see that engine dyno of of over 385hp or even a real wheel dyno of 360+ on a punched out 3.6l. I been wondering what Jakes newest engines were capable of? One of these days i will get my 95k mile car to the dyno....i know its sad i cant find the time.

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Most, not all, GT3s have either pinned or welded those coolant fittings by now. I still think $80+K is a little high for a mechanically sound car. In the end, as you say, you have invested a little more, but the resale will be better than a modified Carrera. Additionally, you get a better transmission that has steel synchros and the gears are easier to change. As for clutches, mine still had life in it when I replaced it at 143K miles (I bought the car with 5,500 miles, so it's all my usage). They are a stouter clutch, but nothing can save any clutch from a bad driver. I agree on the personal decision. I consider myself very, very fortunate to own one and highly recommend it to anyone that is looking for such a car. The downside for some would be the reduction in sound deadening, lower ride height, and a somewhat less compliant ride, but they are one of the most bullet-proof variants of the 911.

I think you meant to say, "First rule of Porsche Club is we don't talk about Porsche Club receipts." But honestly, there is maintenance in ownership of all Porsches. I've gone from a Boxster, to a 944 Turbo, to a 996 C2, to a 996 Turbo... and then added a Boxster on the lift. Yes full circle. All required maintenance while owning, and some more than others. My father use to always say, "We are all broke. Just, at different levels."

Quotes source post: 19476982

Sadly it wasn't even everything, The big items were KW V3 kit/drop links/control arms, new clutch/flywheel, IMS/RMS seal, detail/paint correction/ceramic coating, new tires, refinished wheels, new rocker panels, some old parts replaced, and maintenance work to bring the car up to date. Add dealer + expensive indy shop labor and taxes to get to that massive bill.

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Yep. I get it. I just went thru my second 10 year engine refresh 2 years ago. So the parts, procedures and costs are fresh on my mind. No question, you went first class with your suspension and its a big cost. But its worth it in my opinion. Same can be said for a high quality paint refresh, exhaust, interior refresh, wheels, brakes, etc. Great to see what you are doing for your 996. I have had mine for 22 years and am looking forward to continuing my annual projects over the next 22 years. Next 4 years are already planned out. One of which is suspension refresh, so I look forward to hearing all about your KW3 which IA m considering. Good luck with the refresh. The 996 is definately worth it.

To me, using the 996 TT is a more accurate valid comparison, that really sheds some light on the true value and cost of owning these cars.... The big difference is the m96 engine's required upgrades/maintenance. They can really add up fast. IMSB solution, bore score, out of round cylinders, timing chains/guides/pads,tensors etc. UAOS, oil sumps, water pumps, injectors, cracked heads, dropped valve seats, d-chunks, broken rods, pumps, cranks, cams,etc. While all the above can happen to any engine(maybe..?) its not the exception for a m96, its more of an occasional m96 failure rate %. Actually, all it takes is the more than occasionally needed m96 full rebuild to put an owner way over the top price of a TT, A TT has a base engine good for well into the 200,000+ miles range running strong and quite. Its a rare oem m96 that can say the same. A LN quality alum sleeved/nik'd rebuild is up to $32,000 base now on LN site. After shipping in core, and shipping out engine, even more $$$. And thats only if you don't need a $6k crank, that iirr Charles says half of all the m96 cranks he sees magnafluxed are cracked. And if you don't have a good core to turn in, even more $$$$, and thats a big possibility when talking about a m96 engine failure. And thats only $32+ if you do all the install/uninstall & shipping work yourself. Some say, once the LN engine is in you're good to go for 300k miles, with big power. Probably true, but... The dyno thread shows most of the better ($30k+..?) LN/Hartech engines put out 300-340 whp. A 996 TT puts out stock oem chp at 415-445. Maybe 100 more CHP, on a TT,,, then with a tune a TT can make ridiculous power.... Some of the turbo guys have dialed in absurd HP that the TT seems to take well. Thats a huge plus for me as more HP in sports cars is always better... Then add in TT's better brakes/suspension/tranny/wheels/tires, body works, wide body, etc.... Not saying you can't get that perfect m96 car from the widower thats selling her late husbands fully sorted 4.0 pride and joy, for cheap. it happens... Keep in mind when buying a used car, most sell used cars when there is a problem or a few i$$ue$ they get overwhelmed with. . not many sell a perfectly good car that needs nothing and runs strong and quite. For a m96, its the problems that can crop up in a used m96 are truly horrific and drastically expensive... jmho

No question. The turbo is the biggest bargain in 996 land. But it also comes down to narrow vs wide body discussions. I respect all the work that some of the guys like the PRF has done to lighten and make more nimble his turbo for the track. That costs money as well. But you get much big power. I get it. I also get that some guys like wide body cars over narrow bodies. And vis aversa. I prefer narrow. This is a good and relavant discussion for all. Comes down to what you are looking for the car to do and the driving characteristics you want. Regardless, it will cost you money. That's really the issue behind the discussion. You don't buy a 20 year old Porsche thinking you won't have to spend money to keep it running. And you will spend money to make enhancements that you want. Slippery slope. It's a good conversation.

First off, great thread and conversation! Like GC996 said above, for me it comes down to that I really enjoy the experience I get out of these specific cars and I am willing to spend the money to maintain and improve them. The experience of a 996 is different from a 997, 991, etc. so it really comes down to what you want. At some point in the life of these cars you will be paying the maintenance costs if you decide to keep them unless you try to flip the car into the next before paying too much maintenance and you continue to do that. I keep what I love and pay to keep them running well. I have a 2008 E90 M3 with the N/A V8 that I bought new and I am about to replace the rod bearings, valve covers, brakes, and a few other bits and bobs of preventative maintenance. Similar to the 996 there are well known issues that need to be addressed with the E90 M3s and they run great if you stay on top of the key items and do regular maintenance. I'll probably do a refresh or upgraded suspension bits in a couple years. Hydraulic steering, N/A V8 throttle response, V8 rumble and good looks are things I can't get from a new G80 M3 so I am going to keep spending money to keep the E90 going and make it better. I've had my 2003 996 C2 for about a month now and about 1,500 miles so far. I am starting to feel the same way about the 996 as I do about the E90, which is that it is a keeper. It's just a super fun car to drive that feels like the essence of an everyday drivable sports car. I've mostly been commuting with it to work about 25 miles of backroads every day and it is perfect for the job. Good power, N/A power delivery, feels nimble, plenty of storage, very comfortable, visibility is great...I could go on and on. It's less intense than my GT4 and better as an everyday driver. My ignition switch is having some hiccups so I need to get that replaced and then planning the UAOS for later this year and maybe a Function First shift kit or Numeric to shorten the shift a little bit. Upgrades that I am more than happy to do to improve the car.

My takeaway from my ownership experience (and mine has been relatively very cheap!) is that I should have just bought a gated 360/456/550 because it would have been cheaper to run 🤣. Ah well.

I must have forgotten about my previous massive repair bill, because recently I’ve started piling on more expenses again for the “cheap” 996. I upgraded the steering wheel (though I’m torn—it looks a bit too modern), added a GT repro-style wood shift **** (removed a couple days later because it was too tall), and installed an FF SRS + Slightly Short Shifter (black). Now, I’m waiting on an OEM PSE exhaust from Germany. I guess it really is never enough.

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All of this. ⬆️ Since I purchased mine in Fall '24: � New PS4s x4 � Paint Correction � PPF � (nearly) full suspension refresh, bushings, alignment � Decent 1st service w/ plugs, t-stat, water pump, drive belt � Fister exhaust � PCCM+ � Six month oil changes (DT40) � Probably $1,000 in interior/exterior trim � Ignition coils � Replacement of misc hardware (85� hex screws can add up) � Another $2k service coming up shortly Would need to sort each of these items on a 997 too, and that would have been another $20-30k initial purchase price. Even more if I had to pay taxes on the purchase.

I�m not really a 997 fan. I guess just to say I prefer the exterior and interior of the 996 to the 997. Anyone else?

I've put about the same amount in preventative maintenance, repairs, improvements, etc.. as I've paid for the car. But the journey to get the car to where I want it has been fun and that is priceless. Having said that, I put away a little bit something every month for the next repair or improvement.

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I�m in the same camp as you. The 997.1 do absolutely nothing for me inside or out, but IMO the 997.2 widebody cars were an improvement to the exterior esthetics over the 997.1 front ends. No amount of money would convert me.

From my reading of '911Dreamers' first post of this thread, he was asking if when reaching the 'price point' of the 997(.2 ? ) after doing deferred maintenance/refresh was it enough $$$$$, was it time to stop spending money ..? 996 Forum members might not want to add up the receipts (not recommend for any Porsche owner) but many of us are way up over 40K. Then after an engine build and total car refresh... Hate to say it, but many of us are up at 70- 90K if owner really is honest and not a DIY'r... He was asking if having a 40-50K 996 is a worth while endeavor..? How about a 70-90K 996..? Seems the answer is 'it$ never enough', as most of us will opt for the engine rebuild if the all to common m96 goes boom, instead of.... cut losses and dump it as a roller like the one on BAT that just sold for $4600... jmho

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Fix your own stuff!

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997 has less catastrophic failure modes. Overall service cost save for big downside risk is going to be similar like you said. I still think the 991.1 manual cars are the sweet spot right now for performance and reliability. I still find it very funny that a lot of people don't realize that it would probably cheaper or even money to own a 360/430 than a bargain P car.

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997.1 has same engine, same catastrophic issues and same fixes. 997.2 has different engine but age has shown it has its own list of catastrophic issues and preventative fixes. The sweet spot is with 996 Turbos. They are dirt cheap. 991 is a beautiful car, but its still at the beginning of its depreciation curve. I feel bad for the guy/gal that buys one out of warranty and has to pay big bucks for servicing the techno box of goodies. I wouldnt wish that on anyone without a trust fund.

Quotes source post: 19470062

Fix your own stuff!

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True... Just test drove a 997.2, 2010 Turbo, its in Miami. With PDK for $75,000. 78,000 miles. Sweet car.... With the overboost from the Sports Crono package, incredible acceleration... and traction, My Dragy Pro had it at 3.0seconds flat to 60 mph. PDK/turbo combination is incredible also. Was in nice shape, just miles are a little high for me. Fast balanced car, very nice model. Wonder how they hold up, or if any horrific failures on these cars..?

"When is it enough to stop spending 997 money on a 996?" NEVER...!

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^^^This

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@EVOMMM could tell you since he owns a 997 Turbo. He could also give you a compare and contrast with a 996.1 Carrera. Hopefully he sees this. Lets face it, there isnt a "best" 911, just features, advantages, disadvantages, and benefits depending on your preferences. Yep, and big costs to keep any model running. Part of the fun.

Quotes source posts: 20412749, 20412749, 20412749

For IMS, the later production 997.1 is kind of 3 steps forward and 3 steps back -- the larger IMS is far more reliable, but unlike the 996's, but 997 engine must be completely disassembled to replace the IMS (I have no idea what Porsche was thinking with that -- let's take our highest failure point and make it irreplaceable! ). For bore scoring, it seems like the 997.1 is about the same as the 996.2, and the 3.8 997.1 S is worse (I assume for the same reason that the 3.6 996.2 was worse than the 3.4 996.1 for bore scoring). For 6-speed/coupe/2wd -- the 997.1 and 997.2 are 174 lbs and 285 lbs heavier than a 996.1 (subtract 58 lbs for 996.2 differences). I haven't driven a 997 of either flavor. The light weight is what I LOVE about the 996 -- I'd guess the 997 takes away from that a bit, but no first-hand experience. Definitely agree. Except in a straight line, probably not as fun to drive a Turbo as a base 996, but the Turbo do seem like the way to go for reliability -- especially for those who are power junkies anyway. It's not often you can say the higher performance version of a car is the safe reliable choice . Me too. I honestly hate the complexity of new cars, and Porsche's dealer service rates are now beyond astronomical. Not so bad if you can find a quality Porsche specialty independent. I've always used dealer service for new cars -- had to break that with the Macan because simple maintenance items were realms beyond ridiculously priced.

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991 is only up from here (maybe less desirable pdk cabs/etc excluded) Historic 996 catastrophic failure list is a mile long..you forget all the issues that were immediately apparent when the car was released. 997 has far less problems overall just due to iterative improvement of the .0 engines. No porous engine cases, no under tightened rod bolts, no slipped sleeves, etc. Doesn't mean I want a 997 though! I love the 996 but at some point you really have to think...I could have been driving a cheap 599 for the same actual carry cost.

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I know the history extremely well since I have owned the same 996.2 for 23 years. No mile long list, just a list of 3 bolt on parts that Porsche decided to use that weren't up to the task. All easily solved for. 1. IMSB Failure - solved by upgrading to the LN Solution or Retro. 2. AOS Failure - solved by upgrading to a better AOS. First solution was upgrading to the Motorsports AOS, then further upgrading to a more robust solution which is the UAOS. 3. Water Pump - solved by replacing OE water pump every 5 years. We all know how to solve for the various types of bore scoring that are prevalent in the 996, 997, 991, 992, boxsters, caymans, maycans, cayenne, panamera. Run better oil and change it 2x a year. Seems that many folks forget that if they want green grass in their yard, all they gotta do is water and fertilize it. The 996 is so damn easy to keep running strong on the street and track.

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There are countless posts in this forum from the aughts that detail far more failure modes than the preventable three that you are mentioning and the ones I have already mentioned. D-chunk and cracked cylinders are still a 996/997 problem. Cracked heads were a big problem that is mostly all sorted at this point from use. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...th-issues.html here's a decent summary thread although it is still not comprehensive

Quotes source post: 20412749

No trust fund here. guess I went from worrying about a $30k engine replacement to a $30k PDK replacement. Pretty sure a Raby 4l wouldn�t come close to performance or driving experience my .2 Gts delivers.😎

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Cracked heads have been extensively documented originating from a failed water pump when the plastic fins get lodged in the heads. Hence the suggestion of refreshing your water pump every 5 years. D-Chunk was originally thought to have come from the early 996.1 3.4s being held by a clamp in the factory creating weakness. That hypothication has since given way to the realization in the early 2000s that Porsche had a problem with the favtory AOS flooding the cylinders with oil causing intense pressure in the cylinders and the cylinders cracking. Now it's kNown as hydrolock. Porsche's fix at the time was to either run 0.5 QTS less oil so the factory AOS is not overwhelmed, or to run the Motorsports AOS. Today's solution is to run the UAOS which is substantially better than the motorsports AOS. All easy fixes. But to your point, if you have a long history with the M96 like I do, you have seen all the BS and can wade thru it pretty easily.

Ok let me say the 996.1 is an absolute bargain but it’s still costs Porsche $$$$ in repairs value and style with pimples waiting to explode from dr pimple popper the 997.2 turbo S I own is an absolute beast in a tuxedo expensive buy but minimum $$$ for tremendous add on power but it’s fast enough stock the big problems are PDK is finicky and super expensive repairs also the quality of interior bits suck as does noise isolation no Bluetooth but it’s fast enough drives as fast as anything more modern yet retains its smaller body size if I were to do all over again I would buy a 2004 996 turbo S and call it a good night