UOA found high copper, lead, iron, hear tapping sound

I bought my 2002 996 C2 back in April. It has over 100k miles and needed a few minor things, but it's in good shape and drives well. I had the IMS, RMS, and clutch replaced. The IMS was replaced with the LN Single Row Pro Retrofit. Old bearing looked great. It was making a light tapping noise, especially when you first start it and at idle. The mechanic thought it was just the lifters sticking and not to worry too much. He did an oil change at the same time, either Mobil 1 or Motul. So I did an oil change in November after 5000 miles. Switched to DT-40 and got the free UOA from RND Euro Parts. The engine has been quieter after the oil change, so I was hoping the lifters were the problem and the new oil unstuck them. There was a little metal on the drain plug and in the filter. It didn't look too bad and no plastic. I got the results back from the UOA recently. It's showing high copper (54 ppm), lead (31 ppm), and iron (43 ppm). Everything else looks normal to me. The engine has gotten louder again. It's making tapping noises, and it's worst when the engine is warm, under light load, 2k-3k RPM. Best description I can think of is that it sounds like a sewing machine. Sounds good at start up and idle now, and is quieter when cold. Sounds great at full throttle, through the rev range. So I'm getting worried that this is the start of rod knock and I'm going to need to take apart the whole engine to replace the rod bearings. And once I do that, I should replace a lot of other parts, at some point, we are talking about a full rebuild. Any tips to diagnose the issue and is it something I can repair without completely disassembling the engine? I plan to do whatever repair or rebuild myself.

Subscribed... curious to hear what the experts report.

here's a video of what oval cylinders and cylinder scoring on 4 & 6 sound like https://youtu.be/YSRTKH89MdM here's a pic of one of the scored cylinders: 20150301_191435_zpsthfxygre.jpg hopefully yours sounds nothing like mine. consuming any oil?

A distinct ticking noise is not good. How many miles on the DT40 oil? A long shot but I'm thinking the engine could quiet down with fresh oil. I have observed this many times after an oil change the engine with fresh oil is quieter under all operating conditions. My only experience with an engine -- Dodge 318CI V8 -- making a ticking noise was to partially dissassemble the engine -- removed the carb, intake and exposed the valley between the cylinder heads -- and when I saw one or more cam bearings gone knew I was in for an engine rebuild. I pulled the engine and rebuilt it. What you might consider is if you can assure yourself the noise is coming from the lifter area rather than the crank area to consider replacing some or all new (intake) lifters. Frankly I really don't like offering the above. You could be throwing rather expensive new parts and expensive labor at the symptom only to have the new parts possibly suffer as the condition worsens and then you still have to tear into the engine. Really, if the noise is deemed coming from inside the engine and with the based on your comments high bearing metal content in the oil you are I think faced with either continuing to operate the engine as it is until (?) or remove the engine and tear it down and get to the bottom of the problem.

Andrew, Had a similar issue. I am not a tribologist nor a pro mechanic but I have sucessfuly modified & rebuilt an M96 that failed due to worn bearings.... The value of your UOA is the slightly(?)high level of bearing wear metals identified. Until you can prove otherwise ,the best evidence(noise+UOA) indicates bearing wear.Main bearing #6 in my case. But first you may need a new Indie? The hints are "my mechanic thought---lifters" ! - a few minutes with an Engine Ear would have converted his thought into something closer to a diagnosis. A more contentious mechanic may be a good idea? If you have been blithely running an engine with bearing wear when you were told it was lifters....Have you priced an M96 crankshaft ? Another piece of evidence is the choice of IMSB .I hope you mis-named it. The better choice (if you had asked here) would have been the 2nd Gen Single Row Pro -which is actually a staggered double row bearing that fits single row engines like yours and mine. So , find a competent M96 expert(ask here) take it to him to diagnose. Drive it very gently a short distance - assuming the bearing clatter(?) is not loud and you are feeling lucky I wish you luck .Let us know. We can help with the repair/ rebuild/used engine alternatives.Maybe it is just lifters- I hope.

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That sounds a lot worse. If you told me you had a diesel, I would have believed you based on that sound. It's not consuming any oil. Less than one thousand miles on the DT-40 so far. To be clear, I wasn't paying him to diagnose it. Just asked him if he thought it sounded bad while I was having him replace the IMS and clutch. I did put in the bearing you suggest. The double row bearing that replaces the single row. I don't think it's worth just changing lifters at this point. I'm concerned that the UOA shows there is something wrong, even if the lifters are making the noise. Stuck lifters don't put metal in the oil. It could be worth taking it to a shop to diagnose. No great shops are close though, and I'm sure I'm not willing to pay their labor rate to fix it, especially if it's a lot of work. So I would prefer to find the problem myself if I can.

"I don't think it's worth just changing lifters at this point. I'm concerned that the UOA shows there is something wrong, even if the lifters are making the noise. Stuck lifters don't put metal in the oil." Don't think. Use an Engine Ear to diagnose the lifters.Hopefully a few minutes with that correct diagnostic tool will clarify for you. I had lifters+bearing. Not unusual to have both. Eventually the stuck(noisy) lifters will damage the camshaft lobes- and put the debris in the oil.And it is fine debris that plugs the tiny orifice in the (later upgraded) INA lifters. The DIY approach is great(self-serving comment by me!) but I couldn't do it without a lot of extra equipment,tools and knowledge. Budget at least $7-$10k for all the parts.machining,tools and equipment. Some of the knowledge is scattered all over the Internet.There is no single source on how to rebuild an M96 -except Raby school. Otherwise buy a good used engine.The good used 3.2 S engines are expensive ! IMHO the labor rate of a competent ,honest M96 indie is a bargain. I work with an Indie(not Porsche)am Mech.Eng and have rebuilt other engines but I was humbled by the task of rebuilding this engine.None of my guys could do it(in my opinion). They do the best work in Los Angeles on Astons.Range Rovers and similar but this engine is different... One issue is the lack of info,data,specs., the other is the precision standards ,techniques and tools required and the quirks/technology in this engine.These are the ultimate obstacles . Sure it can be slapped together and work -for a while.This issue will become more of a problem as the price of M96 cars declines to Miata levels. As others here have said - "the buy in price may be low but the stay in price can be exorbitant" Quite the opposite for a Miata.

I had my timing chain break and the motor went kaput. I wish that i was told to stop driving it when it was at the shop instead of telling me to use a different oil. I would suggest to not drive it any longer and have it looked at.

I have started taking a look at rebuilding the engine. So far, I have figured out that just to take the engine apart and reassemble it, there is a lot of parts cost. Lots of special gaskets and stretch bolts that have to be replaced. Assuming I replaced the bare minimum parts I could, it would likely still be more than $3k. About $5k would possibly be realistic replacing some common wear parts. Easily $12k or more to do nickies and everything I would want. Of those of you that have rebuilt a M96, if you have a parts list spreadsheet you could share, I would really appreciate it. I want to have a realistic budget for various scenarios I might find, if I'm going to start disassembling everything. I would also like to wait for Jake to release his M96 Engine Assembly book, but it's hard to park the car now and wait for the book. The RND rebuilt engines sound really nice, but they are more expensive than the car was. I can't really justify that, when I could just buy another car. If I keep driving it and it fails catastrophically, I could get a used engine or one from MB motorsports. That would be more like $12k, but it wouldn't be as good as if I rebuilt it myself the way I wanted. Which I can't do if the motor is trashed. I'm also considering an LS V8 swap. Certainly, if the motor blows up, this would be a better option for me. Starting with an aluminum truck engine, I could swap it myself and have 400-500 hp for around the same $12k cost. The wiring and hoses would be a PITA, but I know I could get it to fit and run. Anyway, my dilemma is, can I really diagnose it without starting to disassemble it? Should I park it until I'm ready to rebuild the engine, if that is ultimately what I have to do? Or should I just keep driving it and hope it will last a few more years? If I drove it five more years before it blew and I sold the roller, I'd be happy overall, but not some much if it blew in 5 weeks.

My tapping came and went for a couple months. I was just driving 70mph one day and the chain let loose. There were times that there wasn't any tapping. i originally thought it was lifters, but i guess i was wrong. My 02 cab roller with 107k in good shape went for 8k.

LS swap is going to cost way more then you think...I'd look for a good used motor and swap. Then you could slowly rebuild your old motor to your specs and sell one of the two later.

it's def not lifters. post a vid. my DIY LNE build was pushing 20k

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yup, to do it properly, I was looking at the same price of LNE nickies and rebuilding the Flat6.

If the harness and what not is the same from the 3.4; you should look at this motor: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...3-4-motor.html

-bearing case/crankshaft bearings -rod bearings -timing chains -timing chain paddles/guides -LNE IMS billet IMS paddle -LNE oil pump Hex Drive -Gasket kit (you replace all of them) -head gaskets -camshaft hole covers -new rod bolts -new head bolts -new bearing carrier case bolts -new engine case bolts -water pump bolts -new valve cover bolts -new flywheel bolts -new head bolts -you will need a new LNE IMS bearing - can't reuse your old/new one once it is removed -new piston rings -LNE thermostat (not required) -new internal AOS (not required) -new pick up tube (not required) that's off the top of my head and was for my build (also got the nickies ) I am sure I'm missing stuff. and that was for the short block only.

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I'll try to get a vid soon. Might try a mechanics's stethoscope to get an idea where the sound is coming from. Then I'll park it until I know what I want to do next. AWDGuy - I've read your thread, and I think you have done an amazing job. If a $20k rebuild is the only way to do it, what would you suggest doing? Is it worth the effort to DIY, or would RND be the way to go? Should I just try to sell the car and move on, if I'm not willing to spend that much? I'm not really looking into doing that thorough of a rebuild though. Let's assume for sake of argument, that it's a rod bearing wearing out. I wouldn't do anything to the heads, just take them off and put them aside. If the bores aren't scored, no nickies, maybe not even new rings. They work now, why mess with them? I would replace the rod, main, and wrist pin bearings. I would replace all the timing chains, tensioners, and paddles. Obviously gaskets and bolts and such. That's not a $20k rebuild, but I need to figure out if that's a $3k rebuild or an $8k rebuild. If something else is wrong, that plan would change or I might even have to give up on rebuilding it. I would like to have a budget for different parts needing to be replaced to figure out what makes sense. Maybe a rebuild cost $20k realistically and I would be better off having RND do it. If so, I would rather swap in a V8. Why? 1. I'm sure it cost $20k to get a crate E-Rod LS3 and all that. I know it cost $30k to have Renegade do it for you. But I think it will cost about half that to put a junkyard truck motor in it, doing everything I can myself. 2. That truck motor still makes 400 hp stock, and can easily be modified to make a lot more. 80 hp is definitely worth $12k, just look how much it costs to modify an M96 to make that much power. It's easier for me to justify spending money on an upgrade than a repair. 3. An engine swap would be a fun project I'm confident I can do. I've rebuilt engines, but the M96 seems to be a whole level more finicky and sensitive than any of the Japanese or American engines I've worked on. So the swap might be easier for me in a sense. 4. Even if it cost as much in the end to swap it, it will be broken up in a more manageable way. Instead of a $20k check to RND, it would be $3k at a time, more or less. That is acceptable over a year or two project.

if I was to do it again....I would do the same thing with more attention to the details. Ask more questions. but, I never really did anything like that in my life so just the knowledge and skills I gained was worth the pain and suffering (both to my wallet and mental state) from that whole experience. if you want to be back to driving a reliable car in no time and have the cash for a ready-to-go RND engine, then that's what I'd do. I looked at the LS swap, but when I was looking they didn't have all gauges working & there's 2 ECUs from what I read so depending on your emission tech - that may cause a problem. I have e tests to do where I live so I didn't want that headache.

Andrew, Glad you are researching the options and $$$$ before you commit. A Mechanics stethoscope will be too imprecise.You need an "Engine Ear" by Steelman or better. And it takes some practice to use it effectively. Read more about the few LS V8 swaps actually completed. Lots of problems,disappointments,Smog Test rejections. Once you start down the M96 rebuild rabbit hole ,you loose control of costs because you will find that parts/machining/tools/equipment is required to do a competent job. And the more you spend, the deeper down you are.... The M96 diy rebuilders seem to be in 2 camps. The slap it together and flip it guys and the OCD geeks (guilty !) I have one priceless advantage in my overly ambitious rebuild decision - the tolerance of a wife who has held back from commenting that the M96 rebuild indulgence cost more than all her jewellery and took longer than our courtship. And at least the jewels would be worth what we paid for them !The parts - not so much .YEMV And please take no encouragement from the fact that my rebulit engine runs. No expert examined my work (like A Raby class) and I have done enough Inspecting of Engineering to know that is a huge issue !

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Before I undertook installing a V8 into a 996 I'd have to see a finished example and see it well enough to believe the swap was more than just something that ran for a while in the garage or on the driveway. My goal would be a car that in the end still worked as a car, as a Porsche, but of course with a different power plant. While the engine sound would be different, and the performance probably better, I wouldn't want something that ran hot, or cold, caused the CEL to come, was hard to start/idle cold or hot, cut out a any RPMs (except at redline), and so in. In short I would want the car with the V8 in place of the flat 6 to be in every way a well behaved car not something I could only roll out to rattle the neighborhood windows once in a while.

Agreed -but even if all your requirements are met, it is still un-Smogable in many States and then you need to disclose the mod to your Insurance. Just search some Forums for "Renegade Hybrids" .There is a thread with a much milder swap -Audi V6Turbo. I doubt that would be Smog-able without a lot of hassle.

Got a video recorded. It sounds worse than I am used to, because it is quieter while it warms up and I normally have the radio and heat on. After filming this, I decided to park the car until I have a plan to fix it. I tried a mechanic's stethoscope and couldn't tell anything. Maybe if I jack up the car and rev it while listening. It sounds normal at idle. https://youtu.be/3WYmVNeDmLw

Andrew, take a look at Jud's (from Flat 6 Innovations) video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUvHxURiDjs I found this to be quite educational. Not sure if it will help you.

or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRjBQB6XKXY leading to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t673SgyzpaM

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See above #18: A Mechanics stethoscope will be too imprecise.You need an "Engine Ear" by Steelman or better. And it takes some practice to use it effectively. Start by listening and writing notes for each cylinder. Then move to the timing chain area. Start each cylinder test at the spark plug ,then header,then cam cover ,then top of cylinder,then bottom,then crankshaft. If it is a 6 speed do the same on the bellhousing and gearbox(neutral!!) After all this you should have pages of organized notes on noise volume and type. And you may have the beginnings of a diagnosis.Until then it is just speculation.Which is fun for us but not useful for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp9kS4wwviY

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Are you trying to beat it to death?

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OP has a substantial maintenance bill in front of him. He was trying to make sure before putting a substantial amount of $$ towards it. No need to kick him while he's down.

Drained the oil and dropped the sump today. The drain plug had a paste of iron fillings on it. All the gray stuff on the blue paper towel is iron paste. The oil filter has a few flakes of copper on it. Tried my best to take pictures of it. I was surprised that the sump is pretty clean. Only a couple little brown or copper bits. Guess that's better than finding chunks of engine.

Bottom of the engine looks clean too. Only one little bit in the oil pickup. I'm trying to borescope it now. Having trouble getting the camera to go in the cylinders. Not sure if there is some trick I'm missing.

One of the cylinders doesn't have scoring. I know that doesn't mean anything. I need to figure out how to get each cylinder to TDC and the right way to snake the cam in.

Vertex offers rebuilt cores and sells rebuild kits. Still not cheap, but less than 8k I think. Check their site... I often thought of what I would do if my engine needed a rebuild. I see folks quoting 100 - 200 hours easy the first time you do it yourself. If you make at least $50 an hour, that 5000-10000$ of your time.. Unless your time is free and you have lots of it, you are better off parking it, working overtime, and paying someone to rebuild it. At least, that's my life experience...

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Or an empty PBR can.

It is probably easier to go through the spark plug holes with the bore scope. How was the hot oil pressure? And maybe Just a dumb? question. Did you check all of your idler pulleys and water pump for loose noisy bearings?

Unfortunately you can't see the bore scoring on the M96 via spark plug holes. The damage(if it is present) is obscured by the piston even at BDC. Hence the need to access via the sump with piston at TDC. A nuisance !

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A good point, but if the knocking is from an ancilliary, how do you account for the steel paste attached to the magnetic sump plug? Steel is used only in the IMS bearing, crankshaft, camshafts and timing chains / sprockets, while if it was copper the main and big end bearings would be the culprit.

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Thank you for the correction. I though some of it might be visible above the piston.

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Two different problems? If it is a failing IMS pluck the trans out and replace again with the bearing of choice.

Just out of curiosity why are we ignoring the Tribology diagnosis? What were the second UOA results? The engine has 100k on it. Are we cleaning up old crud? The mechanic put fresh Mobil or Motul oil, OP changed it after 5k miles, add a magnetic plug then? , not much paste at that time, then again with JG oil when he saw iron paste. Mobil1 and Motul are pretty high detergent oils. Is JG high detergent? What does the mag-plug look like now? If it is bearings where is the paste coming from? If it is bore scoring where is the paste coming from?

As suggested by UOP, continue getting oil analysis to establish a trend. But frankly, as you noted, the copper, lead, and iron are quite high...this is not going to end well. At a minimum, I would suggest shortening the oil/filter change intervals to hopefully buy some time, and avoid high rpms. relinuca

Andrew why don't you get the cylinders bore scoped , this will tell you if it's a scored cylinder or not, it sounds that way to me I'm afraid , noisy lifters usually only rattle on cold start for a few seconds then go quiet as they pump back up with oil, your noise seems constant , if the cylinders scope out ok I would say big end or main bearing possibly. I know guys who have had problems with engines and bought a replacement from a good dismantler, if you get one bore scoped compression and leak down tested and get a decent warranty It might work out a lot cheaper than a mega rebuild as it gets pricey as you have discovered , a lot of parts go in the bin when you take apart and costs stack up just getting the engine back together never mind improvements , your looking 3k in bolts and gaskets and bearings before anything else, I know this means your running a risk of it happening again but if it's properly tested with warranty it might help out unless you got loads of cash spare and the missus don't mind you being in the garage for the foreseeable !!

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Vertex sells a complete rebuilt engine for $13k. I don't see a shortblock or anything like that. I haven't heard good reviews about them. They do sell a rebuild kit for $1949, but I'm not sure that has everything I need in it. It might be a good start at least. I don't make $50 an hour and I'm salary, so I don't get a penny more no matter how much overtime I work. I don't mind spending a lot of free time rebuilding an engine if it will save me thousands of dollars. I would consider it a fun project. It's just an issue of how much do I really have to spend in parts and can I rebuild it without screwing it up. Hot oil pressure was fine as far as I remember. It would fluctuate a fair amount at constant RPM and load. Like if it was at 3 it would oscillate between 2.5 and 3.5 I didn't really confirm all the pulleys weren't making noise, but there is enough metal in the oil to be concerned regardless. I'm pretty confident the IMS is not the issue. It was replaced 6k miles ago and the old bearing with over 100k miles on it was in great shape. That's not to say it couldn't get damaged from the contaminated oil, but I doubt it is the primary problem. There isn't a second UOA. I bought the car and had an oil change done with the other work. No UOA done at that time. I did an oil change myself in November, switched to JG and had a UOA done. Drained the oil this weekend to take off the sump and I'm not getting a UOA done on this oil. What I can see looking inside the engine is more important going forward. I'm not paying $140 for more oil and another UOA if the engine is going to get pulled. Something made of copper is wearing a lot, the flakes in the oil filter tell me that. The iron paste, could be related to the bearing wear, or something else grinding and that iron is damaging the bearings. I'm considering this. It would be the cheapest option in the short term and if I'm not rebuilding the engine, it doesn't matter if it gets damaged further. If I can repair or rebuild the engine cheap enough, I would rather do that. And even if I swap the engine, I'll pull the engine and sell it if it has more value as it is now versus with more damage. It's not clear how much someone would pay for a good core to rebuild over a more seriously damaged engine though. I ran out of time this weekend, but I will finish scoping the cylinders before I do anything else. I have reason to believe the rod or main bearings are worn significantly at this point. If the bores are scored, then I would need to spend $4600 on nickies and a rebuild looks too expensive. If the bores are OK, maybe it is worth taking the engine apart and seeing if the bearings can still be replaced, or if the crankshaft is trashed. I'd be happy to look into any used engines out there. The few I have seen have been very expensive, like $10k. Not worth the risk of having a similar problem after spending so much.

As others have said. Good luck with this. If you have to rebuild hope no scoring is found.

Looked at the cylinders with the borescope again yesterday. I didn't see any significant scoring. So that is good news. It must be the rod/main bearing going bad. Something started to wear and the debris got in the bearings and now they are going bad. I can't tell what else is damaged unless I disassemble the engine. If the crankshaft and rods are damaged, I either have to give up, or risk using used parts. Not the best idea. I have a lot of concerns about rebuilding the engine though. I can come up with a reasonable budget if I replace as few parts as I can. But the less I replace or thoroughly inspect, the higher the chance it blows up when I'm done. Depending on how much is damaged and how much I choose to replace, the cost can quickly skyrocket. Cheapest would be about $3k, more realistic is $6, but $12k or more wouldn't be surprising. This is also assuming I can borrow or rent whatever special tools I need. I wish there was more documentation and more people that specialize in machining for the M96. There is not much for options to recondition parts and any mistake rebuilding could kill the engine. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on an engine that blows up in a few thousand miles. There is a M96 enthusiast 101 online class later this month. Has anyone taken that, but not the hands on class? Does the online class tell you how to rebuild the engine or is just an introduction before you take the 102 hands on class? I'm not sure if it is a good idea to disassemble the engine to determine the full extent of the damage. That would help me decide if I want to rebuild and if I should spend $400 on the class. I'm worried I will break something, or mix up parts if I take it apart before going through the class though. Do you think the engine would be worth more complete, still in running condition, but disclosing the problems to the buyer? Or selling individual parts that are still good on eBay?

Andrew, I can give only a few answers. Much depends on your skill.facilities,tool,equipment,technical ability/skills and time to acquire what you do not have. The time is a huge issue because the devil is in the details and there are many of them - hence the Raby school. I wish that class could be done entirely on-line with a video but it can not. I am housebound caring for a Parent so I could not attend. So I spent hundreds of hours gleaning all I could from the Forums and guessing the rest. It was not a smart choice.It was my only option because of my personal obligations. After I did my rebuild one wonderful resource appeared on Rennlist - the "Cringley" M96 rebuild thread by Ahsai. He is a Raby School graduate Suma *** laude ! Read that thread and see if you can match his skill and resources.That will answer a lot of your fundamental questions. Bare bones rebuild items for others to add to: The bearing shells are cheap . Getting to them..... It is usually the rearmost bearing(s) Seldom necessary to replace rings and often a bad idea to do so. Rod bolts - go ARP Complete gasket set Complete set of 24 lifters (Warehouse 33 is cheapest??).They were $50++ each when I started ! A good used Durametric Enthusiast cable with at least 1 VIN left to use. No cheapo china/Ebay ones! Sorry I can't help more - I am struggling with an SAI and misfire problem that I need to solve to get Smog Test done. http://986forum.com/forums/performan...er-failed.html Did you see this ? https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...1-996-ims.html

Look for a good used motor!