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YOUR RESEARCH996 C4S 3.6 to 4.0L Reliability?
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Run dt40 as per lne instructions....but you're the 3rd person
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I'm running DT40 as per LNE instructions....but you're the 3rd person to say (a couple have PM'd me) on using a different brand oil reduced their oil consumption by quite a bit.
Leading evidence: 'Run dt40 as per lne instructions....but you're the 3rd person' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Replace injectors' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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I had them cleaned and flow tested since they were out but this was never mentioned in the course I took and I pretty much wrote down everything that was said.
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I have seen this "rough running index" term used before by Jake, but there is scant information about it.
Use fairly reputable specialist out here in australia
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I used a fairly reputable specialist out here in Australia.
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Suggestion
I've been asked to change injectors, as the original thought was that I had a faulty injector(s) causing excessive fuel washing out the cylinder walls.
Run dt40 as per lne instructions....but you're the 3rd person
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I'm running DT40 as per LNE instructions....but you're the 3rd person to say (a couple have PM'd me) on using a different brand oil reduced their oil consumption by quite a bit.
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I have the unfortunate opportunity to have my new engine rebuilt. It is currently in the shop at LNE. Luckily it is under warranty and they have been great to work with.
They have offered a pretty decent price on the whole upgrade from stock to bad a$$ 4.0L since it's already going to be apart. Am I crazy? Will this cause more issues in the near future? I want a reliable fun car, not something I have to keep dropping loads of cash into. I'm sure I'm going to need it for brakes and tires!
Appreciate any feedback.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're generating more power in the 4L it'll create more heat. Which means hotter temps when pushing the engine at the limit. If you run hot or plan to do a lot of HPDEs, you may want a 3rd radiator. Just a thought from my perspective.
Personally, I'd do it in a heartbeat if you can retain the character of the engine.
I have just over 10k km on my 4.0. Motor runs great.
Burns oil more than it should IMO but I Chalk that to the wide variances in the gap of the oil control rings. In hind sight I should have installed the rings that I originally got with my nickies and pistons as they were gapped (manually, be me) perfectly and light tested. I was told to install these new total seal rings by JE as-is by LNE even though the gaps varied, big time.
I've read a few threads since where Jake has mentioned these rings could go under better QA before going out to the public. If I had read that before my build, I would have went with the originally supplied rings.
this is good to hear as my engine is also getting a 4.0L done by LN over this winter. did you use the stock rods or upgrade to Carrillo? any other upgrades you made to engine parts that help the 4.0L?
I used the stock rods.
Upgrades were:
-pinned IM shaft
-LNE single row IMSB
-APR rod bolts
-APR crankshaft carrier case bolts
-LNE billet IMS shaft
-LNE coated rod bearings
Yup! IMS crapped out exactly at 72k back in July... apparently they used a Pelican Parts IMS
but lets not High Jack this thread. I have moved on and not looking back. It is what it is.
Built with the proper combination, clearances, and preparation, displacement won't determine reliability, or longevity alone...
Many of my 4 liter engines have a dozen years under their belts, some with 200 hrs of track time, plus tens of thousands on the street as well.
Its not how big its built, but rather how its built big.
I seem to have settled in at around a quart every 1000 miles, with daily driving. I burned FAR more for the 1st miles, and then it droped down a bit for 2-3000 miles or so.
WOW!!! Sorry for your troubles. I can't help but think how this thread would turn if good ole Marty hadn't been banned. The several times he touted his own roller bearing and we find out he used something from Pelican!! How do you know this? This stuff is gold Jerry gold!
Moving to a 4.0 will relieve the pain knowing that you are in good hands!
A roller bearing is shown on his site as of today. For all of you out there that are looking for a builder or services that they offer....buyer beware.
Zookie....you will be happy with what you are in line for. Good luck!
I have to say that all of this is quite scary. My 3.6 doesn't consume any oil. Nada. I don't have to add any oil over 5000km.
I was thinking of a 4.0 rebuild, but should my 3.6 ever run again (carbon based alien is living in the sump, prognosis unknown) I think I will keep as is.
Google search oil consumption and 996/997. Guys with under 50k km are burning at the 1quart/600 miles range and they are completely stock cars. Lots of them.
Porsche put the burn rate right in the manual to cover their asses. Pretty sure the 997's says right in the manual that its 1.5L/every 1000km's.
I used a fairly reputable specialist out here in Australia. Haven�t raised it with them yet as I thought it�s within spec per the manual? Is it a build issue that should be rectified? I have been provided a one year warranty on the build.
Honestly....I don't know. I've been asked to change injectors, as the original thought was that I had a faulty injector(s) causing excessive fuel washing out the cylinder walls. The oil sample I did showed very little fuel values going into the oil mixture so wasn't convinced that was my issue.
Looking back and talking to the fellow who assisted me in building the engine, we are pretty sure the oil control rings and its wide variance in gaps are the reason why my motor is burning oil at the 1 quart/every 1000 km's driven.
I had my engine rebuilt by Automobile Associates in Clinton Connecticut. They bored my 3.8 liter out to a 4.0 liter. My horsepower went from 320 to 370 and torque went from 270 to 300. It has GT2 power now. And it is awesome. I have had it for 18 months and two track seasons and have not had an issue. Assuming you are going to a good engine builder, you will get a hand built engine that will be bullet proof. You will get a better engine than you can buy from the factory. They will fix every flaw associated with the M96 engine. You will never get your money back, but my God you will get a great engine.
I'm running DT40 as per LNE instructions....but you're the 3rd person to say (a couple have PM'd me) on using a different brand oil reduced their oil consumption by quite a bit.
I think going to DT40 lowered my 3.6s consumption. Not sure exactly where it is now, but it's in the range of 0.5-1L per 1,000 miles. Driving style seems to be a major factor, though.
I'm afraid to ask but, here goes: how much should one budget for a M96 rebuild to 4.0 spec?
Will the M96 issues go away? IMS / RMS etc? Are there Mezger "tricks" or upgrades that folks have done to their M96? I understand that its a different block, but can one do "while you're in there" Mezger upgrades for a more robust engine?
More stupid questions:
"Thanks to its racing intentions, the GT3’s motor doesn’t suffer from IMS bearing failures like its M96 and M97 cousins. While the engine still uses an intermediate shaft to drive the camshafts, the oil pumps are driven directly by the crank. What’s more, the GT1-derived block has a different oil gallery design that ensures the IMS bearing remains lubricated at all times." - can one use the same GT3 crank-driven oil pumps to prevent IMS issues in the future?
Can or has anyone had their M96 built using separate cylinder heads for each cylinder rather than the M96/72 single head per bank?
What other upgrades can be done for better flow, efficiency and or power / torque?
Always been curious if one can use the "better" or upgraded Porsche parts that are used in the GT3's in the M96 during a rebuild?
DT40 always has higher consumption than most any other oil.. Thats no secret, nor is it a problem.
1 qt in 1,000 miles driven is exactly what DT40 should provide. We've known this, and shared this with all of our purchasers of engines for a decade.
12-20k.
depends what you want done. Head work to match the 4.0 block adds significant costs to the project. I did very minor work to the heads and kept the costs low here. I spent my time addressing the weak points inside the block. Rod bolts, IMS paddle, oil hex, pinned IMS shaft, carrier bolts...
and no, you still have the chance of IMS failure after all said and done.
You were directed to change the injectors, because you should have done that when the engine was built, anyway.
Also, didn't you state at the time that you had more consumption than 1qt per 1,000?
(Sorry, I have to waste a lot of time answering emails from non- purchasers of my engines, so I don't remember every email.)
I was never told to use new injectors. I had them cleaned and flow tested since they were out but this was never mentioned in the course I took and I pretty much wrote down everything that was said.
anyways, I'm not into the he said she said BS and now I know what kind of burn rate I should expect with DT40, which sounds like it is bang on with what I am experiencing. Thanks.
We've learned that ethanol based duels kill these injectors to a point where they will never hold leak down pressure, or have a proper spray pattern, even after professional cleaning. Protocol is injector replacement. Instantaneously smoke at start up goes away (no more injector bleed down after engine shut down) and fuel consumption goes down, as well as oil consumption. Fuel tim levels out, and is stable, rough running index can drop 20% or more.
The problem isn't that the injectors are dirty..
Anyway, if you are at 1 qt in 1,000 with DT40, thats where you should be with that oil.
I have seen this "rough running index" term used before by Jake, but there is scant information about it.
Jake, what is the "rough running index" and what does it tell us about the health of an engine.
After the 993 and before the 9A1, the Metzger engines were modified with water cooled heads on oil cooled blocks.
The M96/97 engines are completely different from the inside out.
If you have a currently running 3.6 M96/97 FSI has a package price for you based on your performance requirements, as do others.
If your engine has gone kerblammo, it gets more expensive depending on what and how it expired.
yeah, i guess. 4 years is coming up though and its recommended to change the LNE single row every 4 years. Even though it will have less than 15 000km's on it. Lats year I put 4k on the car. not even enough to change the oil (I do regardless, at the end of the year)
Thank you for the detailed info. It's a little disappointing that even with an engine rebuild there isn't a solution to the IMS issue. I was hoping there was some tricks that are out there that give you a robust solution moving forward.
My engine runs perfectly fine (to my knowledge?
- though when I read IMS threads I sleep starring at the cieling), I'm just curious.
