Motor is toast

I bought my brand new to me 2001 911 C2 cabriolet w 63k for 29k out the door 48 days ago. Did a major engine maintenance and was waiting for the oil analysis to return�. Yesterday the car died in a giant cloud of white smoke on the highway leaving me stranded with water and oil dripping from underneath the engine. At the time, I was hoping it was a head gasket or maybe the air oil separator I wasn�t sure but the mechanic had it on the lift today and said it was complete Hydro lock and they found a bunch of magnetic metal shavings, and hes concluded that it was the IMS bearing and I need a new motor�. what a kick in the nuts. Where do I go from here�

I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. I bought a 2002 C2 cabriolet in November with 47,000 mi. The only gripe I have about this car is having to worry about this exact issue. Did you buy from an individual? Kind of makes you wonder if the previous owner observed some clue that this might be coming. Sorry for your loss- I don't have any advice but I've seen some people suggest replacing the engine with either a Audi/VW 3.0 V6 or a GM LS-platform V8.

Oh man that sucks badly and so soon to the ownership - sorry... Any records of the IMS being replaced previously? 63k miles is not low mileage but not very much for a 24yo car too and those tend to be higher risk.

Car fax showed �transmission replaced�at 9k in 2005 and dealer told me that was the IMS�. Not so sure now. Gonna ask the shop if there�s anyway to identify it

I wouldn�t do a swap. I would either replace it with a used engine or rebuild this one or depending on cost maybe upgrade to one of those sweet flat six rebuilds and increase displacement but I think I gotta do something otherwise it�s just a paperweight. Just hurts bad to have dropped a bunch of cash have nothing for it and have to spend double just to get it back. I think the only way I would really feel good about it is if I got it back dramatically improved in someway, which is why I would consider the rebuilds and the increase in displacement. LN engineering says they can go up to 3.8 with the 3.4. Of course it could just be a pipe dream considering the cost.

First get a 100% verified analysis of the failure. Then you will have a better idea of what option is best for you. Know this though; you will not recoup your money. Sell it as a roller and take the loss now, or if you really want to keep the car dump enough money into it to get it back into shape and take the loss later when you sell it. There is no free lunch here. Options: factory short block: still requires a full engine tear down, heads must be reuseable, expect a ton of "while you are in there", $$$ used engine: crapshoot, $$ cheap rebuild: crapshoot, $$$ proper rebuild: never worry about bore scoring or IMS again, gain horsepower and torque, transform the car into something you never expected it could be, $$$$

You�re right I�m just getting over the loss. Point is I lost. Period. as for options I think the only one I�d feel solid about it after an experience like this is the $$$$ �.or sell the roller and get another car

Sorry to hear about the failure, as others have said your options are limited. I am curious though what (if any) checks were done before purchasing the car? If yes, what were the results?

Truly sorry to hear of this just 48 days after purchase. Buyers remorse doesn't even fit this scenario.., but I do feel like it could of been avoided... I am obsessed with failure analysis, so if you don't mind please describe the detailed circumstance before the failure, and also please let us know of any forensic analysis after the engine disassembly ..

Sorry to hear that. Only be glad it was a diagnosis and not a prognosis.

Sorry to hear this,especially so soon after purchase.... So, oil and coolant puddles under car dripping from engine that died in a cloud of white smoke,,, sounds like your mechanic claiming total hydrolock could be correct. Not sure how a imsb would do this, but maybe. IMHO, sounds like a rod broke from hydrolock and made a window in the block... Was aos changed in your "major engine maintenance"..? Any knocking noise, or 'marbles in a can' noises from engine prior to this..? jmo

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Please do not just get another car, unless it has a proper rebuild. Or else you are in for the same unknowns you had here. If the car put a smile on your face every time you drove it in those 48 days, it is a candidate for a proper rebuild. If the driving experience was ho-hum for you, sell it as a roller. The dollars don't factor into it. If they do, sell it as a roller. Maybe there is one other option for buying another car. There are guys on here that have many many miles with zero problems. Their oil change and maintenance regimens far exceed what is called out by manual. I would go for one of these cars... The problem is finding one of these guys that is willing to sell their car. Good luck with your choice!

That engine may no longer be rebuildable.

It is not a bad idea to get an extended warranty, for 3 years or 12k miles with a high deductible for only the engine and transmission for the 996/997 ......I have never done that before now but if there is a total failure a permanent fix can cost 10's of thousands......if it was me.....I would fix it and enjoy it for years to come.... beautiful car.......

Sorry, this sucks. I agree with what wdb says. If it comes down to an accounting decision, cut your losses. You have a couple great options if you decide to keep (if your block is salvageable). good luck. In the end, its only a car. Life is short. You can make more money.😎

It�s a good point it�s true it might not be rebuildable The mechanic thinks that when the bearing went somehow something else broke and crashed into the water jacket. Wouldn�t really know without tearing it apart and that�s almost certainly not worth it at least not at this point. I�m in Jacksonville Florida. I took it to Technical Dimensions. He�s a reputable Porsche specific mechanic. it was a pretty regular drive just like all the others. I wasn�t flooring it at the time or shifting off red line. I was cruising between 70 and 80. there might�ve been a boom or a pop I really don�t remember it happened so fast I just looked in my rearview mirror and dense white smoke Probably the size of a house was immediately behind me when I pulled over the cloud drifted over me. post purchase inspection was pretty good. I did everything recommended did the oil change. We did coil packs and spark plugs and belts annd pulleys. Also had a leaking coolant tank so replaced that. No evidence of any metal contaminants in the oil filter still haven�t got the oil analysis back. Had a rear main seal with a small leak, but we were gonna save that for when I possibly needed a clutch. If somebody says they�ve done the IMS bearing I don�t know if I�d trust them unless it�s documented which it wasn�t and that�s really where I screwed up I guess. Still some damn horrible luck.

Date night Car for me and my wife and weekend Car for me. Kids loved it also. I�ll have to get it back just have to decide how.

Any IMSB replacement in 2005 is well past its lifetime. I believe the IMS "solution" was patented in 2015 or so, and it is the only lifetime retrofit. From what you describe, sounds like AOS failure and hydrolock. Any repair/replacement is big dollars.

Sorry to hear that happened to you. You have to decide how much you and your family like the car. If you really like it, rebuild the engine to address all the short comings of the M96. Spend the money to do it right the first time so you do not have to do it again later on. They really nare wonderful cars to drive. They retain more of the original 911 character (smaller, lighter and more agile) without being so computerized that you can’t work on them. Good luck with whatever you decide. Mark

Ouch! I know the feeling. I had a 99 3.4 engine in my Boxster let go after 800 miles. Frost plug popped and hydro locked the engine. It was a fresh rebuild. Sold most of the bits but do have the cylinders available if you want to rebuild. LN looked at the cylinders and said they�re totally usable and can be punched to a 3.8. Hopefully your crank is still good. I was planning to take them to Carlyle this weekend. PM if you might be interested. Happy to let go cheaply as the LN Nickies would run a bit.

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I recall seeing that one (or one very similar) when I stopped in at Vaughn last year to look at another 996 they had at the time. Sorry to hear of your troubles.

That�s where I got it. You�re right on

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The "transmission replaced" in 2005 would have been the RMS seal. I don't think there was widespread knowledge of the bearing failure in 05.

Got a call w Flat6innovations on Monday to understand what that would entail. That would be at the very top of my options and probably out of my price range but want to have all the information. they�ve got several different rebuild options. On the website it states that the stocker and stage one are actually more expensive the the stage 2 and up because the tariffs and inflation have hit the OEM parts the hardest. Interesting option going straight to a stage 2 or 2+

Another good option is also talk with Brandon at Slakker Racing. Hear out both Jake and Brandon. Slakker Racing Development – slakker-racing-development This another car in same boat as yours. My Slakker / Hartech Journey - Page 5 - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

That sucks, that's a beautiful car. I can see why you bought it. I'm sure you'll find a way forward that works best for you. As the owner of a new to me 2002 cab with 42k miles my anxiety level is rising. good luck getting it sorted

Well that just sucks!!!!!! Sorry to hear. Keep us posted on the next steps. Not sure what I would do, tough call...... Listen to the guys on your options and best of luck going forward.

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What led you to this conclusion, just really want to know.

@Curt707 not sure what you�ve done yet, but first, sort out the IMSB. This is the key for any low mileage car. If it�s older, just replace it. If it�s newer, the cheap risky way maybe 2 UOA�s separated by some hundred miles to document that it is not shedding particles, pull oil through dipstick tube. Even then, maybe change it for peace of mind. Then figure out if your injectors are OK. Leaky injectors on low mileage cars are the recipe for bore scoring. Get the leak and spray pattern checked. After that, all you can do is change your oil every 6mo/5k miles. You can look for existing scoring, but there will be nothing you can do about it, except run heavier oil to decrease the progression. Scoring won�t grenade the engine until very late stages. Scoring risk goes up as the number of oil changes the engine has seen goes down. The primary key is the IMSB state. Put the pin back in the grenade. Figure that out, and you�ll be able to sleep better

I would not rebuild a hydro locked engine

So have we determined if the IMS let go or was it the AOS?

the IMS was done 10 yeas ago with a EPS IMS bearing, I'm considering replacing it with the LN style for peace of mind. thank you

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I�m going off the assumption that the rod punched open a window.

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This is my first thoughts also when I see a big puddle of oil and coolant under the engine ..... But there is a much less nefarious assumption that "Could" be made with the limited facts we have ..... It could have been just a small hair-line crack in the head that lead to intermix and while just cruising along the intermix could have overwhelmed the cooling system with volume a pressure and blew a old hose or just "puked " big gush out of the pressure cap all over the engine.... The Mechanic who "looked" at it didn't say for sure there was a Rod hanging out the side of the block... This is why I hate to comment on Posts with little facts, but with a big Emotional Symptoms ...

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lol. Once they took the spark plugs out, they were able to turn the motor by hand. I don�t know what that means exactly� but we did find a bunch of metal magnetic shavings in the bottom of the oil filter he said that really only comes from one thing� IMS I think I�m planning on rebuilding it so that should yield a conclusion, but there�s no reason to spend any more money trying to figure it out right now. Just wait for the rebuild.

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When its discovered where ^this^ rather disturbing puddle of oil, & oil on your finger, came from, then you can determine if the engine is a good candidate for a rebuild imho.

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Yes if a locked-up engine starts to turn after the spark plugs are removed ( and a bunch of liquid comes out while turning) , this does mean full hydro-lock .. Question :: was the liquid just oil...just water...or a mix of both ??? From an IMSB failure to full hydro-lock takes quite a lot of "chain -reactions" .........that will cause a lot of "noise" .. A Full failure of the IMSB can cause the timing chain to slip, this can cause the valves/pistons to contact, this can break off the valve head to bust the piston or bend the rod to breaking point, then the damage can extend to the cylinder wall breaching the coolant passages.....then causing the hydro-lock....this chain-reaction will cause quite bit noise ....lol Like I said I would be interested when/if any forensics are done on the disassembled engine ....

Sorry for your loss , if you rebuild do it right . I have two FSI engines so I am biased . I have IMS Solution in both engines . Both rebuilt to larger than OEM displacement . Ballpark figure I spent 28k back in 2015 for the one and 30k for the other two years ago . Rock solid performance and reliability. IF your block can be salvaged you are probably closer to 35k for the build . That is reality . But you will get an engine that Porsche SHOULD have built . Jake is a straight shooter and knows these engines like very few do . I never dealt with Slakker so have no opinion of them . Online reviews seem good . I wish you well on your journey .

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I know forensics is costly, but it�s worth it. Knowing if you have a good crankshaft is potentially worth that cost alone.

If it were me, I think I'd find a used 1999-2001 motor from car-part.com (salvage yard database), or a whole car front-end wreck from Copart (one with Run and Drive note), replace the IMS while its out, and just replace the motor with a used one. Wouldn't be hard to bore scope it before you buy it if its just the motor youre getting. I would think you would be all in for less than $15k. Maybe your insurance will help cover it? What if you bottomed out going over a railroad track and it cracked the sump? That's kinda like a car wreck, right?? I've done this with other cars before, Land Cruisers in particular, and it was the most economical way to get it back to where it was. I didnt claim it on insurance or anything, I just swapped in a used, stock motor.

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If going this route I would think a Porsche short block with refreshed heads would be a far better plan. Before tarriff this was doable for $15k plus labor.

How many labor hours does it take to remove an M96 and install a new/used/replacement?

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8 hours to remove engine 8 hours to install engine 8 hours to strip all the stuff from the old engine down to the short block 8 hours to put all the stuff back on the new short block 8 hours for all the while you are in there ... and it's 40 hours.

Can�t remember exactly but my mechanic looked it up and I think Porsche short blocks are up around 20 something k now

Send it to LN or Slacker and have it done right. Send the whole car....

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It would not be $10K or a Porsche short block. You might be lucky and get one for $15K, perhaps a bit more.

https://www.delawareporscheparts.com...ne-996100951tx $8800

[QUOTE=2001C2Cab;20021025]Got a call w Flat6innovations on Monday to understand what that would entail. That would be at the very top of my options and probably out of my price range but want to have all the information. they�ve got several different rebuild options. On the website it states that the stocker and stage one are actually more expensive the the stage 2 and up because the tariffs and inflation have hit the OEM parts the hardest. Interesting option going straight to a stage 2 or 2+[ /QUOTE] I wish this were the case when I had my Stage1 rebuild! In any case, I'm really happy with my FSI Stage 1, plus options, rebuild.

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When looking thru the Porsche parts listings there are so many 996 short block options with very different price ranges.... How does one know an acceptable replacement short block part #...? Looks like even complete engines are available for the low price of $52,000 If one scrolls thru the below list its confusing... https://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-...=996100951TX#a

That short block from Delaware is interesting�. Idk what the deal is that seems really inexpensive in comparison when salvage motors are going for same price. At the end of the day after my experience I�ve decided that I�d only feel good about getting back a car in BETTER shape than what it was. getting a car back w the same or worse a replaced motor just won�t sit well with me. however, getting back a solid rebuilt motor where the inherent flaws in the motor have been addressed and thus more reliable and more powerful will make me feel like it was money well spent. the way I�m looking at it is� say it never blew up. And I sent it away for a Hartech or an innovations rebuild� it woulda been the same money. In some ways it�s a blessing because I never woulda spent the money for a proper rebuild otherwise and after I do I�ll have something really special and MINE. so I�m basically wiping it from my memory pretending it never happened and going ahead w a rebuild� right now I�m thinking a 3.9 Hartech from Slakker. WHICH, is an interesting story but to sum it up. Slakker is probably moving all of their 3.7 to 3.9 soon and I�d probably be one of the earliest ones. still haven�t totally pulled the trigger but I�m not one to wait around so I�ll probably be making the final call early next week.

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The above seem like very sound thinking... You seem to be a great candidate for a big bore build... Just hope your core is in rebuild shape. Can you see where the engine oil poured out of...?

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I believe all the 3.4 short blocks are the same. What could be different? also I believe Skip verified this previously.

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You might want to ask the 914 crowd about AA. Inconsistent experience might be putting it most charitably.

Good news is you'll never have to wonder if your old motor was gonna to keep going and didn't need to be rebuilt unnecessarily.

I had similar bad luck. I bought my 2002 C4S in January and managed to get only 370 miles out of it before the engine failed. I bought it from a Porsche dealer that sold it new and maintained it its whole life. They showed documentation of IMS, RMS and clutch replacement 7,000 miles prior. I had it towed to the dealer and they diagnosed IMS failure. I spoke to LNE and they said they don�t really do rebuilds anymore and directed me to one of their certified shops. The quote was quite high, nearly 45k. I decided to send my car to Slakker for a 4.1L build. It arrived there this past Tuesday. I optioned upgraded connecting rods, port and polished heads, upgraded cams as well as the power pack that includes a GT3 throttle body and upgraded plenum. My quote was just over 33k. Still a ton of money and way more than I wanted to dump into a 996 but oh well. Good luck with your decision. Definitely give Brandon at Slakker a call.

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Yes, that engine Brad posted 996100 "951TX" is a 3.4 X51 short block and can be used in any 1999-2001 Carrera... It is actually cheaper than the 996100 "996TX" which is the 3.4 non-X51 short block to replace all M96/01, M96/02 , M96/04 non-X51 engines .. The only differene in the X51 Short block for 3.4 is that the pistons have some small notches in the top for the high lift cams but will work on all non-x51 cars/heads as well. The X51 3.4 heads/cams will not work on the non-x51 short blocks because they don't have the notches in the piston top.... Back in 2019 that short engine was only $6300......I think Porsche must have built too many of them ...lol Here is a thread I posted back in 2019 on how to DIY a replacement engine for under $10K ... https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...DIY+10K+Engine Prices have gone up a LOT since then especially labor !!! Hartech in the UK was doing full turn key rebuilds for under 10K ( USD equivelent) back then......Slakker/Hartech USA is now trying to fill the need for many USA engines...

We've used Technical Dimensions for Porsche/Audi for over 15 years. Seth will not steer you down the wrong road. He's always been very honest with us. I hope that you're able to get things straightened out to your satisfaction for the least $$ possible. Sorry you had issues. That's a really good looking car in the pix.

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Seth has been great. Super knowledgeable and I found him to be straightforward and honest. I Trust his advice.

If there is any good news you know that it had to be done and when it is fixed it will be bulletproof, and you can drive and enjoy it worry free......and probably...... it will appreciate in value over the years.......

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There is no rhyme or reason to how Porsche prices these things out. I just priced out a 3.8 S M97.01 and it was almost $19k. M97.21 3.4 was about $18k.

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If it's windowed, Porsche won't accept it as a core and likely everything on the bottom end is junk.

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There were no commercially available bearing replacements until 2008. Likely, the IMS flange was leaking and they replaced the flange and seals. I see this often being mistaken as the IMS bearing being replaced.

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Yes, and I have the same note in my CarFax about the transmission being removed and replaced in late 2004. It was for the RMS, but the Porsche dealer selling me the car, didn't mind if I made the assumption that it was the IMS bearing that had been replaced. It didn't stop me from buying the car, trailering it to my indy for an immediate LN Engineering retrofit before I drove it. You guys have my original IMS. Thanks for being there.

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Yea It's called PorscheEnomics, there is not $10K difference in an M96 3.4 and a M97 3.4 in any other world....LMAOO

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I think a Slakker 3.9 is lemonade from a lemon situation. The 3.7 relies on a stock crank, and the condition of yours is uncertain. I electively chose an LN 3.8 build in Australia - and the balance of premium pistons and rods in Nikasil bores, an IMS solution and UAOS is more than the sum of it's parts. A fun responsive car and the engine even feels smooth big and with a wall of torque. I went LN over Hartech due to exchange rates. Hartech once posted not doing 3.4 to 3.9 in the M 96 - 5 chain engines due to the low head flow, I note Slakker have posted a 5 chain head up grade. A proper displacement build will be enjoyed, but I advise a long relationship with the car.

You Tube Sent this to my wife and told her, �See, it could be worse� You could be married to a guy w a $50,000 RC plane lol

You could spend as much on Pokemon cards, watches, pinball machines, or a bathroom remodel.

I don�t think I�ll mention the bathroom remodel� lol

I’ll just leave this here 😁 $6,305, no core required at the time of posting https://www.delawareporscheparts.com...ne-996100997bu

👀

Sunset has the same. part number: 996-100-997-BU

Feel for you, pally. I had my 2000 C2 Coupe a whole 10 days before it catastrophically **** the bed. Hunted and pecked for a clean one, 60k mile car with IMS done, a MASSIVE stack of records, same owner for over 15 years. Someone at either a Porsche dealer or small indy had failed to torque a bolt to spec in the timing section after a job and when I was clearing the thing�s throat, it let go and a free-spinning cam left me with a kissed piston/bent valve. The bores were actually spotless when we split the cases! The car was what I really wanted, not just what I could afford in a 911, and the chassis/body/interior were too nice to justify taking a loss on as a roller. I went for a 3.8 build with Nickies/Mahle 101s/Carrillo rods/IMS Solution/Stage II heads by Len Hoffman. Any part that could be upgraded to a new 997 version was, and while it was crazy money, I have no regrets. I have 8k HARD driven miles on the build and it�s truly everything I already liked about the NA 996 pushed to the margins, and short of the world�s ****tiest 996 GT3, there�s nothing else in a 911 that I could�ve thrown that money at that feels and performs like my car. I was lucky to have a really fantastic and communicative indy within reach that has a longterm relationship with LN and does A LOT of track builds, so I trust them when it comes to what fails and how on these. Good luck to you.

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That is a core charge. If it ends in a U then it is a core for the part number that ends in a X.

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$6k for a core is insane. At that point you�d be better served changing to a LS motor, K24, or Audi 2.7.

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that's Porsche's way of attempting to control the m96 engine market... The $6k price on the core makes sure they get that engine off the market and into their hands... If you starve your M96 for oil and stick a Rod through the block you will have to find a $3k core from a junk yard anyway......Then you either spend $30k-$40K to have that core built or you give it to Porsche and pay the $6.8k for thier engine....( or go the Morpho-Porsche route )

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Thanks for keeping it real 👍 Here is another with a more reasonable core charge. $8500 at the time of posting with a $3800 core. https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...ne-996100996tx

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It is my understanding that they will take anything back as a core. No matter what the condition. This is their way of controlling the supply. They are not turning them into new shortblock, imagine they get scrapped.

I want to ask this again ... 996-100-996-TX is a fit for a 3.4L 5 chain engine from 2001 996 C4, no?

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My limited understanding is that the 996-100-996-TX short-block will work with any 3.4 from 1999 forward including the X51, please do your own research

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Yes..... Not quite:: I know it is confusing and Porsche does little to make things simple... but ,, 996100 996 TX is a 3.4 to fit 1999-2001 Carrera and replaces M96/01 M96/02 and M96/04 996100 951 TX is a 3.4 and will fit all the above plus any of these with X51 package upgrade

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Its my understanding that the 996100 996 TX will not work with the x51 package as there will be valve interference problems from the x51's higher valve lift cams with no cutouts on piston dome. If using the 996100 951 TX short block in a non x51 engine then the compression ratio will be lowered from valve cutouts without the higher compression x51 heads... Is this correct..?

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This is correct although I don't think the notches will have any meaningful effect on the compression ratio as they are quite small and most heads will be "shaved" anyway to ensure flatness that would more than make up for it... The main difference in the heads for the X51 is the ports are "CNC ported" after casting..whereas the non-X51 are ran "as Cast" ...

Tough pill to swallow�. the hartech 3.9 rebuild is about 30k. I�m trying to do only the things that make sense to do while the motor is out and that will be affected by the tune as well. So I�m thinking of doing the 3rd radiator and I�m gonna go catless w the rear o2 sensor delete in the tune. There are a couple other options along the way oil pan- FVD or Hartech clutch LWFW Numeric shifter� if the clutch is in good condition I�ll probably wait. Shifter can be done at any time. aside from all that it�s a 30k bill. Car was 29 out the door. There are other cars out there as well but buying one of those I�ll be in unknown territory again. I�ll have to do an ims solution not the biggest thing but then there�s also the water pump maybe another coolant tank, aos, etc. just hard to bite the bullet on such a big bill. Wife already called it a money pit. Walking away now is such a loss though. Giving up on a dream the 3.9 option is exciting. I�d basically have a bullet proof setup for years to come. Everything else on the car that I could upgrade or improve would be considerably minor in comparison. aside from the financial loss that�s such a kick in the nuts it�s kinda a spiritual thing as well. I�ve been working my *** off driving my 300k accord for the last 10yrs after I finally gave up my gti, became responsible got married and bought a house. Since then my wife and I have had 4 children. This was our date night car. A way to enjoy life after working so hard. The kids loved it as well of course.

My advice is throw the money at the important stuff you can�t easily upgrade later on. Third radiator is overkill for a street car, and a short shifter is a quick and easy mod later. Baffled oil sump makes sense, but you won�t want or need anything more than an extra .5 qt sump on a street car. Brandon at Slakker does not install the IMS solution, but does an upgraded bearing that is much more affordable than LN�s oil-fed Solution. It�ll need replacing again in like 50k miles I believe? To be fair, I paid for the Solution when I did my build bc I was SO crazy about bulletproofing with lifetime parts that it seemed a no-brainer and I�d probably do the standard upgraded IMS bearing if I had to do it again. Things like the upgraded con rods they sell and headwork make sense as you really don�t want to ever have to split those cases again, so do it now. Fresh OE clutch and flywheel make sense while you have easy access, especially with the extra displacement. You will forget the bill the instant you get the car back and smash the gas pedal � I promise.

Don't think of it as a Toyota. Look at it from a different perspective, $59k gets you one he'll of a classic Porsche with an engine that will be worry free for many decades to come. To me it's a no-brainer. But I am a guy that bought my 996.2 in 2002 and have put well over my initial purchase price into the car with service, refreshing parts, and upgrades over the last 22 years without any regrets. Why? Because its just a great car. Yes, i will also have the engine rebuilt with top of the line internals in the next couple of years so i can enjoy it for another 22 years on the street and track. $59k is a pretty cheap price for such a great package.

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Appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge and experience 👍 Here is the 996100951TX for $8600 and a $3800 core charge at the time of posting. https://www.sunsetporscheparts.com/o...ne-996100951tx

Also, the reason I�m not really entertaining just replacing it with a short block is because if I�m gonna spend a bunch of money, I want to at least get something back that�s better. More performance and reliability. If I spend a bunch of money and just get back the same car it just feels like another loss.

Quotes source post: 20045949

Happy to share my 50+ years of Motorsport Wrenching , I can't take it with me .....Just remember to mention it to my Grandkids should you ever run across one .... That factory short-block is not a bad way to get a nice car back on the road in better condition then it has been in a long time... $8600 plus some odds and ends + 14 hr labor for power unit R&R..... then 21 hr. labor to transfer heads, wiring and all accessories..( per Chilton Labor Guide) So $8600 ( plus odds and ends) + 35 hrs Labor and you're back on the road with a fresh bottom end and a 2 year Warranty... Of course this is assuming a little forensics on the old engine to determine the root cause of failure and that the collateral damage was confined to the bottom end...

I'd think long and hard about that lightweight flywheel. If you're building a track car / weekend canyon carver, okay. But if you are looking for long term return on your investment, not okay.

Quotes source post: 20046091

+1 I wouldn't waste the time or money on a LWFW unless you are building a track car. If you want more throttle response, all you have to do is add the proper software and tune and you are golden for the street as qell as for HPDE. Not to mention a rebuild will provide large quantities of power lower in the rpm range. You know the routine. Upgrade the following to protect your rebuild. 1. IMSB/RMS. Good tolime to check clutch and flywheel and replace with oem if needed. 2. UAOS Track even if you dont plan on tracking it. 3. New OEM water pump Then when the engine is out, replace items that are old and worn. 1. Plugs & coils 2. Fuel injectors 3. MAF 4. Oxy sensors 5. Oil Sender 6. Oil cooler 7. Oem engine mounts 8. Trans mount. 9. Power steering parts that are old and worn 10. Coolant parts that are old and worn 11. Now is the time to replace the headers for easier access and to deal with broken studs. 12. Belts, pulleys The rest is non-engine stuff that you can do when necessary 1. Suspension 2. Cats & mufflers 3. Tires, brakes 4. Interior refresh items 5. Exterior refresh items Good luck with it!

Quotes source post: 20046072

My local indy is $125 per hour so you are looking at around $13k for a fresh factory engine. IMHO it�s a reasonable alternative. On a different note, do you know if the x51 power kit is available from Porsche for the 3.4? If so do you have the part number? Thanks again 👍

$30K for an upgrade that will take the biggest complaint about these cars and turn it into a non-issue, and last forever. It really comes down to how long you keep your cars. For me, I keep my cars forever. And now i wouldn't hesitate to take my car anywhere. I drive it daily. It's a smile machine. The other thing is that you won't be getting the same car back. In it's base form it's cool, svelte, nimble. The new engine will add 'raucous on demand'. For me, the LWFW is a no. For town and street, it will make the car twitchy. I've driven other LWFW cars and they take a different level of skill to be smooth. If it's your car only and a track machine, then maybe. 3rd radiator is also a question. If you live where it's really hot or you are going to track alot, then do it. Otherwise, it might not be worth the dollars. Mine, without 3rd rad is 200 when in traffic, otherwise it's always at 180. Good luck with your decision! It'll be super fun if you pull the trigger.

A $13,000 short block build is not realistic if you're in for the long run, in my opinion. Thinking $20-25k is more realistic after adding in incidentals like flywheels, clutches, injectors, engine bolt ons, core/engine shipping, head work, shop labor etc.. A little hesitant with a shiny brand new short block sitting on engine stand and just swapping over the old used heads that came from a engine that just took a bad dump. Nope, my ocd or any decent tech would not do that. Especially a good shop giving a warranty. Especially from a engine that suffered this type of failure described below by OP "car died in a giant cloud of white smoke on the highway leaving me stranded with water and oil dripping from underneath" "mechanic had it on the lift today and said it was complete Hydro lock and they found a bunch of magnetic metal shavings" imho a total head recondition/flush is in order. Not sure how aluminum parts hold up to metallic shavings circulated thru all engine systems. I fear worn lifter bores could compound oil instability problems. Probably best, checking cams, lifters and lifter bores for wear from metal shavings being circulated thru engine.... Not sure if the cam journals can be line bored if worm...? My forum buddy got his heads done at L Hoffmans HammerHeads for $5000. And most all parts were good, Len did replace all guides and all valve seats(3.6) along with a stage 1 port job on his 2002 c2 with 60,000 miles on engine before a elective,, not a blown engine rebuild.... Lifters/cams&journals/lifter bores all were good....

Quotes source post: 20046406

It is totally reasonable when doing a lot of the work yourself. I�ve done it Your $20k budget is more than we spent for the complete running driving car last summer You pays your money you take your chance 🤷‍♂️ My 19 year old sons running driving Aerokit purchased last summer under $20k 👍

For anyone who bought one, does the Porsche Short Block come with ... 1) main oil pump 2) a better IMS bearing 3) all dowel pins ...

Quotes source posts: 20046207, 20047973

The 3.4 X51 is actually quite rare and was never allowed in the USA. It was ROW only and was called the "Power Up Option" in Japan ...It is no longer available as a kit from Porsche ..*t came with Dual Scavenge Pumps on bank 2 that the 3.6 didn't have, also came with a set of pistons that were "Notched" ( all 3.6's have big enough notches in them for the high lift x51 cams so different pistons/short block is not necessary) plus all the other things that a 3.6 x51 kit has ... 1) yes 2) yes comes with 6305 " big non-serviceable bearing" same one Hartech uses 3) no The OEM short-block comes with a 2 year Unlimited Mileage Warranty... IF installed by Indy or DIY the labor is not warrantied and any warranty claim must be first diagnosed by Porsche Dealer. IF installed by a Porsche Dealer then parts and labor are warrantied for the 2 year Unlimited Mileage Warranty

Quotes source post: 20047973

If I was to do the short block I would remove the ims bearing seal and add the Hartech cover. https://sr.dev/products/hartech-ims-flange This pic of one shows the dowels for the heads installed. Are there others?

Quotes source post: 20048545

What�s the advantage of the Hartech cover?

The Porsche 996 short block comes equipped with the larger M97-style IMS bearing�just like all Hartech and Slakker engines. This upgrade effectively eliminates the IMS bearing issue.

Quotes source post: 20048545

If this is the picture of a factory short block, then it answers some questions. It includes .. four head dowel pins, oil level sensor, knock sensors, but does not include coolant access port (that little square port to the left of the flywheel area).

Quotes source post: 20050282

I know it has also been said it comes with a water pump. Yes that pic is a short block just out of the box. Not mine.

I�ve been talking w Brandon at Slakker and I�m moving fwd w a 3.9 Hartech rebuild. Keep y�all posted!

Quotes source post: 20050342

Congrats! I got my post tear down call on Friday from Will at Slakker. Total IMS failure and 2 bent rods. Otherwise everything is intact. I�ll call that a win for how it sounded when the engine let go. My 4.1L rebuild should be underway soon!

Quotes source post: 20050569

Hmmm, interesting... Wonder how those 2 very different conditions are maybe related, or not...? Not sure how an imsb failure could cause rod bent/damage, without also causing severe head damage...? Or how bent rods could cause imsb failure. Maybe they are 2 different failures that have occurred at different times. Rods bent maybe from aos partial hydrolock at some point in engines life, and imsb failure evolving from the usual m96 issues and causing the final failure.... jmo

Quotes source post: 20050612

I�m not sure. That�s what I was told over the phone after the engine was disassembled. All I know is it sounded terrible and then wouldn�t run again. The Porsche dealer I bought the car from dropped the transmission and said the IMS was gone with no bearings to be found and the engine wouldn�t turn. They didn�t want anything to do with it so I reached out to LNE and Slakker. I wasn�t bothered by the bent rods since I optioned the forged upgraded rods anyway.

Quotes source post: 20050612

I would assume the valves made contact with the pistons and caused the bent rods?

Quotes source post: 20051426

Ya, that would normally be my assumption also.... But " post tear down call on Friday from Will at Slakker " only mentioned bent rods and imsb failure. If valves hit pistons hard enough to bend rods there would be severe (or at the least some) head damage to deal with on rebuild. Head damage would have to be part of rebuild co$t . Would assume that would have to be mentioned in post tear down call as another major cost....? And we didn't see that, hence my curiosity on engine failure analysis...? From info we have, seems rods got bent from some other event.

Quotes source post: 20051426

Per Slakker, the valves and heads are mostly fine. Only thing they relayed was the valve guides on the exhaust side showed some wear and they recommend replacing them. Not sure how 2 rods got slightly bent. I only owned the car for 2 months and put 370 miles on it before the engine let go.

It's interesting that this thread has 2 catastrophic failures in it with no conclusive "root cause" being established .. This is the norm for M96 engines and has been that was since the beginning... Used to be it was standard procedure to do Forensics on failed engines and was easy to do on V or inline engines as the crankshaft and rods/bearings were visible just by removing the oil pan... In the Flat six's the crankshaft and rods/bearings are only visible by splitting the cases ...this little bit of extra labor seems to be a big hindrance to getting Full Forensics... Hindsight is 20/20 , so embrace the History while forging ahead !!!

Have them check the cams for twist. I had an engine that suffered IMS failure and when we profiled the cams we found one of the cams was twisted about 1/2 degree on two of the cylinders. This apparently happened when some of the valves hit the pistons.

The challenge is that most shops traditionally define a bent rod by eye��looks bent� is the standard. We define a bent or twisted rod as anything over .010" of deviation. Porsche doesn�t publish a spec for rod straightness, but the spec for the small end bushing clearance is max of .0012". For context: - Thousandths of an inch (thou) are easy to measure with the right tools and some experience. - Tenths of a thou? That�s 10x harder�literally and practically. Replacing out-of-spec valve guides is standard and included in our base package. There�s no performance or reliability benefit to replacing valve guides that are still within spec. @porschetech3, cause of this failure was IMS bearing castration (it had no *****). We don't measure small bearing IMS runout because they all get replaced with an M97 large bearing IMS that includes a new bearing without seals.

@SlakkerRacingDev thanks for confirming the IMSB was a total failure ...and although you didn't mention it but I assume the valves were not bent as a result .. But with a bent rod on #4 cylinder as your measurement chart shows, I also suspect a previous partial hydrolock event from a failed/overwhelmed AOS like @allcool mentioned .....Due to the design on the INtake the #4 cylinder always gets the most/biggest gulp of oil if the AOS is overwhelmed/failing .... Common knowledge that rod bearing clearance of ~ .002" and pin clearance of ~.001" and piston to cylinder clearance of ~.001" ( OEM) dictates the rod straightness ( big bore to little bore parallel alignment ) should be less than .001" on new OEM engines.... so your spec of .010" is very generous IMO ( or is that a typo? ) So for a full Forensic analysis I would say that engine had a partial hydrolock sometime in its past but not enough to cause failure but just slightly bend the rods, and that indeed the IMSB was the root cause of the catastrophic failure.... PS ; I also agree that there is no benefit in replacing in-spec valve guides...and the M96 valve guides hold up very very well ...( as opposed to 993 Mezger valve guides ..lol)

Quotes source post: 20052846

You also have to factor in 2 thou piston-to-wall clearance, 1 thou piston pin (to piston) clearance, and a couple thousandths for main bearing clearance. Then add in roughly 0.030" of valve pocket clearance (which allows for piston rotation), hundreds of thousandths of thrust clearance between the rod and the piston pin, 5 thou of main bearing thrust clearance, and the natural ability of the piston to rock back and forth along the thrust plane. So while I agree that 10 thou of bend might sound �generous� in theory, in practice�especially considering that the small-end bushing is the softest metal in the chain�we simply don�t see that amount translating into measurable bearing wear. And these bend values are pretty typical for stock rods. High-end rods like Pauter and Carrillo usually come in very close to perfect. On the other hand, lower-cost options like R&R and K1 were all in 0.020�0.040" range, hence why we will not use them in our builds.

Quotes source post: 20053271

Interesting conversation. Thanks for this insight from a premier m96 engine builder. Just so I understand completely what you're saying, want to go over my comprehension of your post above, please correct me if I've misunderstood. So, since there are many thousands).001" of clearance total added all up in the reciprocating mass, a .010" rod bend is easy for the engine to 'absorb' in stride. Hence your spec for max rod bend of .010"...? Did I get that right...?

$8k rebuilt motor (due diligence needed): https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/p...851538272.html

Yeah at that price it’s definitely a pump n dump motor

Quotes source post: 20053889

yeah, probably best to assume that and spend $30k.

Ok, I'm not an engine knowledge guy, but following this thread for knowledge. I don't get 'pump n dump'. If it's rebuilt, does that mean new pistons, work etc... too? or just replacing the major wear items and calling it good? For the price, you'd have a working motor with issues addressed if there was no bore scoring, yes?

Doesn't say what was done to cylinders and pistons and rings. Doesn't say no bore scoring. Big risk.

Look rebuilt for $8k is impossible reseal with minor parts is possible if everyone else is $25k for basic up to $60k for all out ballz how can he do a “rebuild “ for $8k

New bearing and seals. More of a freshening up than a rebuild. Probably good enough to turn around and sell a car.

Unfortunately, there is no industry standard or definition for what is considered rebuilt beyond something that is taken apart and put back together.

Quotes source post: 20053441

Yes. I pulled a few more measurements that I thought were interesting...

@SlakkerRacingDev thanks for posting that compilation of rod bend values...I know that most or all the the engines you get have had tramatic events, but this is an interesting amount of "non-perfectness" of used rod bentness ...so what do you make of this ?? Do you assume like me that these were almost perfect when new ? I have ordered Custom Rods and Pistons made to my specs before, and buy lots of CNC'd parts for UAOS and UIDS where I provide all the specs and drawings and specify the tolerance way way tighter than these values are...Critical parts I spec at +.0005" -.0000"... Couple more questions... Were those R&R Rods Aluminum ? The K1 rods were 4340 steel H-Beam ? It's hard to believe these rods bent that much under normal use, so the big question is whether they were machined that poorly to begin with or, if something over-stressed them ? My opinion at this time is they were over-stressed by excessive oil consumption, what is your opinion ??

Here is a good thread on bent Rods from the 996 Turbo Forum for those who are interested in bent Rods....The 996 Mezger Turbo will bend the OEM Rods if you tune the boost to over 600 ft/lbs torque ...They are finding lots of bent Rods on engine disassembly.. Of course this is a different root cause for the bent rods as compared to bent rods we find on the M96/7 NA engines... The Mezger Turbo Rods are bending due to over-stressed from too much boost at low RPM and the M96/7 NA Rods are bending due to over-stressed due to partial hydro-lock.....but in both cases it is just due to too high cylinder pressures... Like I have said many times I love Engine Forensics...This is how you avoid failures or develop better Mouse Traps and these guys love discussing all that as well.. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turb...-question.html

Quotes source post: 20055530

Still trying to process all that data,,, yes very interesting. Thank you.

Quotes source post: 20059517

This is just outrageous, compared to our m96 issues... Make you feel so bad for those poor Mezger turbo guys. Poor dudes have to keep the boost down to 575 hp/torque. Just terrible to have to pedal around under powered cars like that...

Quotes source post: 20059914

Yea poor babies ...... ........It's so very easy to get greedy with Turbo Boost that they just can't help themselves .......

Quotes source post: 20059914

It's terrible but someone has to do it .

Quotes source post: 20060531

LMAOO !!!

Lol. Boost is an addiction that can never be satisfied, based on my experience. I equate it to a roller coaster. The first ride is a huge adrenaline rush, and you just want more. But ride the same roller coaster 10 more times and it becomes somewhat boring. And you have to find a bigger roller coaster to get the same rush you did the very first time. Also the grass is not always greener on the other side. We have 3 Mezger TT's in for rebuild right now for the following... - 996TT Blown head gasket along with a .5" chunk of the cylinder head - 996TT Oil starvation from overrev (known issue with the 996TT crankshaft oil passages that can drilled or upgraded to the GT3 crank). - 997TT Spun camshaft (known issue that is fixed by pinning the cams) On the NA rods, I've still been chewing on that one myself as this was the first time I've looked at this data as a set. The first thing I always do is to question the quality of the data (I don't trust anyone's data, including my own). And I put it at 65%. If we were able to corroborate it 2-3 different ways, then I would put it in the upper 90's. The major flaw in the measurements that I can think of is that we are essentially measuring from the edge of the bearings and not bearing face to bearing face. So sloppy machining tolerances could make it look worse than it actually is. But we are very consistent in how we measure things so I think there is a lot of value to the comparative data. Some additional info: - The K1 rods were 4340 chromoly steel and an economy option that I don't see listed online anymore. Which I think is probably a good thing. - The R&R rods were part of a 987 3.6L "race package" from a "well known" builder. The car suffered a crank failure and they paid another $15k to the same builder to go to a 3.8L using a 3.6L crank. There was no mention of using new rods when they did it. The nikasil cylinders didn't look too bad but the car has always had excessive oil use since then. And here are a few of my takeaways: - The stock rods are pretty darn good and capable of revving much higher than the rest of the valve train - That excessive cylinder pressure (to Skip's point) seems to be the most probable cause of the bending, either due to pre-detonation (knock) or too much oil in the cylinders - That further investigation is warranted to explore if bent rods may not be the root cause of bore scoring.

Check the �Swapped Porsche� group on FB if you�re considering selling it as a roller or, you may be able to source a running engine from someone contemplating a swap.

I would consider selling my 2000 C2. 103,XXX on the engine before it was totaled in the front. IMS was replaced around 70,000 (documented). I'm in Melbourne FL, so it could be picked up and towed if you're near Jacksonville (2 hours or so). I have a number in mind, but if you're interested, come check it out and let's talk. Things to note, I removed the aero wing, aero skirts, ruf wheels, and tail lights (put them on my new '99 996). Lot of other nice optional goodies on the car. I can provide more pics as it sits in my garage, but the engine still ran after the accident and before the front was disassembled for valuation. With the front end disassembled, it will not start.

ouch, what happened?!

Thanks for the offers and all the support guys. I�ve decided I�m going to get it rebuilt with Slakker.

Car is at Slakker and getting torn down. Spun rod bearing was the cause of the failure and the mains looked pretty bad as well. Also need a new crank. Not sure if I also need new rods yet but I may upgrade anyway. good news is case is salvageable and the heads have been refreshed and pressure tested well. Im honestly not knowledgeable enough and dont have any experience inspecting engine parts but figured plenty of you all do! Lmk what you think!

As you need a whole new crankshaft. Are you/Slakker going to source a 3.6 crankshaft and carrier? Or specialty crankshaft, or offset grind a 3.6 crank for a displacement build? I'm happy at 3.8 (LN nickies). With Slakker so across displacement builds. It could be converting a problem into an opportunity.

So what was the root cause of failure ?? I see the spun rod bearing that accounts for the metal debris your Tech wrongly assumed was IMSB failure.. The spun rod bearing was due to oil starvation....but that doesn't account for the "white smoke engulfing the car" ...or the "Large oil and coolant puddle under the car" I see that the Rod didn't break and the cases are salvageable,,, thats good .....

You Tube my motor at slakker

Quotes source post: 20046072

What about bore scoring? Apparently the remanufactured short blocks use a more eco-friendly process for the Lokasil cylinder bores, which makes them much more prone to bore scoring than the original engines produced in the late 90s? Is there any truth in this or is this simply myth/hearsay?

Not the bores but the piston coating changed for environmental reasons from Ferrostan, a galvanic coating, to Ferroprint, which, as the name suggests, was printed on and tends to flake off. Ferrostan doesn't. The bores became structurally weaker due to diameter increase going from 3.4 to 3.6l