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YOUR RESEARCHCracked Cylinder and Bore Score: How to get out?
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only sensor i didn�t replace
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Problem is the owners and lack of service including oil changes.
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Reported cause · Original poster
Demann did the work, but it was the seller that was problematic.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Personally, I�d been looking for a LS swapped 996 w AC for a couple years.
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Took my 3.6 to the Porsche dealer after wrestling with it for two years. The final blow is a hole in cylinder one. It's burning coolant. Bore score on cylinders 4, 5, and 6 as well.
If you've followed my posts you've seen me wrestling with it. You also know that I've put $10K in parts on the car. Now it's a roller.
This has been the worst case scenario from the start because the seller, on BAT, said they had a title for the car. They did not. Now that the engine has the death nail in it how do I get out?
Best,
I can't help but I keep seeing more and more horror stories from BaT. Sorry that you are going through this. If you can't get the title its essentially a parts or track car, no?
It took months to get the title straightened out. So that part is correct now.
I'm really faced with how much I spent on the car vs. what is it worth as a 996 that needs an engine rebuild.
Well, you could sell it as a parts car.
You could rebuild the engine, which gets you a new car in 996 clothing.
And there is all the "while you're in there" preventative maintenance you should do.
It's a sad situation, but maybe a hidden opportunity, too. If you really want the car you should just fix it and suck up the extra cost. It will be a car that you know from the inside out. Forget what the car is worth.
That's life; sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
Right now your mood is in a bad place. Put it all away and come back to the problem when you are not feeling so sour.
Euro,
A hypothetical question for you. You put 10k in parts into the car. Assuming the engine didn't fail as it did, would you have eventually gotten the engine rebuilt like many of us will eventually do?
How do you get out while minimizing your losses...
You buy a parts car and yank the motor out and put in your car. You part out the rest of the parts off the parts car you're not using and get a big chunk of the money you spent back.
It's a pain in the *** but will get you the cheapest motor you are going to find.
Good luck man.
I did this when I blew my car up on the track. It was a lot of work, but I actually ended up clearing $12K after buying the parts car, keeping the motor and selling everything else.
Euro
man so sorry to hear about your trouble with this car. i thought not seeing you on this forum for a while was a good sign.
i echo what others are saying about getting a used engine. BUT only if you have the money AND time. If not. Cut your losses and sell car
for parts. Wash your hands and move on.
Sorry to hear about the trouble with your car. I agree with Marv above, maybe store the car for a little while, if possible, to let the sting subside and formulate a plan. Most obvious option would be to sell the car as a roller, or you could part the car out but that would be a major hassle unless you have your own shop. You could find another engine, but there's always the risk that engine has the same issues. You could do an SBC LS3 conversion with a Renegade conversion kit, lose 100 lbs and gain 150hp in the process, or even do an electric vehicle conversion which I've seen on Youtube and looks awesome! Take your time, get a little distance from the problem, and formulate you plan. Best of luck.
Any area of town where your car would be more likely to be stolen? Go for a nice walk with the Mrs and forgot that your window was down and spare key was in the ignition?
Tough situation, bore scoring always in the back of your mind with a M96/M97
Raby always insists that buyers drop the sump and boroscope the cylinders from the crank side prior to purchase, so please do that if you purchase a used engine. The guy selling the aforementioned used engine is on �swapped Porsches� of FB. He�s keeping it in the car until sold to ease the mind of a prospective buyer, still, I�d follow Raby advice.
For LS swap questions, Contact Tyler at
https://www.chavisperformanceengineering.com/
CPE has turnkey LS solutions (wait list is a year) or can sell you all the parts. You can follow them on �swapped Porsches� on FB.
mine is a �99 w a crate LS3 w the RH kit done by a previous owner. Very strong drivetrain. Personally, I�d been looking for a LS swapped 996 w AC for a couple years. Paid much more than I would have for a much nicer stock example, so there�s that.
Check out eBay prices, there�s a lot of gold in your roller if you have the patience to mine it
Back burner this for a few days, you�ll make the right decision.
Post more details about the car aside from the engine to better evaluate it's roller value. Values for a nice 996 finally justify the cost of a quality rebuild whereas that probably wasn't true just a year + ago. Best of luck in whatever direction you go.
Even without specific figures, buying a roller TODAY and spending say $25k on a rebuild has to be better than having done it pre-covid when 996 prices were 30-40% lower. You almost never recouped your investment then, but today its a better proposition, even if its not a "no brainer" yet.
OP: If you love the car and want to keep it forever fix it which ever way your budget can afford(numerous suggestions above). If the previous statement does not apply let it go. You will never feel the same way about the car.
You said the rebuilt engine investment, which you're saying above is $25K was justified by the increase in a nice cars value, I just wanted to know, like, what that meant to you.
So... Say you bought a nice car low and paid 20K for it. Now, you spend $25K on an engine and you go to sell it today... are you getting $45K for it ? I'm not trying to be a smart ***, I really don't know.
If the math works out that he can put a new engine in and value for value, get his money back if he decides to sell, I'd be all for it.
$10k for a roller + $25k. Drive it for a year or two, what�s the downside. Even better if its a rarer color, aero, 4s. Im not saying its always worth doing, I�m just saying its a much better proposition today. The biggest reason this isn�t done more often is many owners may not have $25k laying around and are willing to get in the rebuild queue and wait a year+.
But, the OP did not buy the car as a roller I don't think.
The OP situation is a ****ty one, but I think it's one that a lot of people can find themselves in. So, the question becomes, as was stated at the beginning of the thread - what to do ?
I think saying that the cost of a $25K rebuild is
financially
justified, as in, you can recoup a major portion of your investment is just foolish. Now,
emotionally
justified, thats another thing all together.
This!!
Most of us don�t buy cars for investments and most of us realize we�ll probably lose, to some extent, money on the cars we purchase. If you bought her for passion, fix her and drive her!
What the OP has into the car already is 100% irrelevant. It's a new decision tree going forward, past expenditures shouldn't factor in at all. Emotionally justified can be factored in to the extent you put a value on the smiles/mile you will receive after the rebuild.
Cliff notes version of the story. Money shifted my car on the track - 4th to 1st while doing 100. Bought a car on copart that had been it in the front right for $9500. Put the motor from the crashed car and put it into my car. Got very lucky and it was a Porsche Crate motor with the larger 997 IMS bearing so no work to do there.
Sold all of the parts I was not using for a total of a little over $21K. It helped that it had the GT3 Euro Seats and Tequipment roll bar so that was about $4500 right there. It took about 2 months to break even and do the full part out, the rest of the money came a bit slower from selling the smaller parts (still actually have a few of those parts for sale and it was 4 years ago). It did help that I was already parting out E36 BMW M3s as a side business to support going to the track, so I already had a process in place.
classic �sunk cost fallacy�. Even though I know it exists, I still fall victim to it every now and then.
https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/th...-cost-fallacy/
It's been two years of no fun and lots of $.
The chassis is in good condition. The center console has the normal scratches, but the rest of car is decent. Good paint and interior. 80K miles on it.
I'm not interested in continuing this challenge. At some point I knew it would need a rebuild, as all of them do, but I really thought I could drive it for a bit before that happened.
The plan is attempt to cut my losses and recoup part of my investment of time, money, and energy.
Anyone interested in buying a well cared for roller? I hate having to even say roller. It runs and drives enough to move it around in a parking lot, but I'm not going to drive it for risk of hydrolock. Oy vey.
Are you going to buy another 911 to replace this one, or some other play car, or simply forget having a funcar altogether? And if you are going to get another fun car, what is your budget?
Sound good. I was wondering if you were still going to buy another fun car. I figure that if you are sinking money into another one, then just rebuild the engine to this one since you know all the issues and there shouldn't be any more surprise. But since you are looking to switch brands, at least the sale of this one can partially fund your SL.
Good luck.
Individuals can easily fall victim but �the free market� doesn�t and that tends to keep prices in line. I read the link. Am i the only person who will stop watching a sh*ty movie after 30 minutes and walk out regardless of what the ticket cost? Done it several times including a Broadway show.
Man sorry to hear about your decision, you must not like the 996 911 that much and now you are calling it unreliable? Not the case at all. But to each their own opinion.
Everyone is interested in CHEAP rollers, especially ones with the engines still in a long list of previous maintenance.
Post it up for sale and let the free market play out. Expect a lot of LOW BALL offers.
Wait a second, the engine was rebuilt right before you bought it for 19k. Are you getting it serviced by the same guys that rebuilt it? If not, what's The story on the rebuild? Looks like the shop may have not known what they were doing? This isn't a 996 issue, it looks to be an engine rebuild issue. What happened that caused the need for a rebuild?
Dude, I would stand up, slap myself right on the head, shake it off, and find another engine. This car cost you nothing, and it's in awesome shape.
Yeah, you are right it says swap. After reading engine failure and drinking 3 cups of coffee this afternoon, i am going a mile a minute and am pissed at the situation that euro is facing. Even more pissed that this isn't a 996 issue, and as a result has soured him on the 996.
Don't know if Deman has any idea what they are doing. Don't know if they willingly sold him a beautiful 996 with a pile of crap under the lid. Don't know what caused the failure. Don't know if euros local shop has any idea what they are doing, and if the grenade could have been avoided.
Euro, be happy that you bought the car in 2019 and not 2021. You paid next to nothing for it. The question is, what did you do to the car with the 10k you spend. If it was with a shop that took 2 years to figure out what the problem was, then I would be double pissed and you need a new shop. If it was spent on "bolt-on" upgrades, then you have something to show for it, and that's good.
What does your shop recommed for next steps? You know you can ship it to LN and get a 20k rebuild and it will be light years better than a new 996 engine and way more durable than any used Mercedes SL.
Your call, but think this one thru. It's not the 996's fault. You have been dealing with a long list of idiots. Yep, I am still very pissed for you.
Deman wasn't the seller. They just did what was asked of them, install a used engine. They definitely know what they are doing. Very famous for their 4.5l GT4 engine.
Interesting...
Sounds like we have a tangled web of a mess.
I'll take the side of the 996. That's not were the problem started. Somewhere along the line was human error and misjudgement. But isn't that what life is all about, and owning a 996.
Great outcome. Congrats.
Next recession I may look for a second engine. It will allow me to keep running the car, get one rebuilt, and then sell the spare after the recession and when everybody and their mother wants another 996 engine. One thing is certain, I am keeping the car as long as I can. To damn good of a chassis.
You missed the point.
Problem isn't the engine. Problem is the owners and lack of service including oil changes. Not to mention lack of basic part replacement. Imsb, aos, water pump, just to name a few simple things that eliminate major failures. In this day and age of 3-5 previous owners, who is to say what they did or didn't do along the way, and we know the answer. They didn't do didley in most cases.
Every engine has its problems, but you can't blame the M96. Blame the owners.
Service records, PPI and borescope are paramount. If not, good luck.
I think we can all agree that Porsche screwed the pooch with the M96 motor design trying to save a few bucks. Its the main reason why the n/a 996 is so cheap and will always remain so, the motor is a liability no matter how good the maintenance is kept up. We see OPs story play out week after week here. Sooner or later you have to blame the design of the motor.
But that's not what you said... You said because of this scenario, you would not recommend. That's a very unfair statement.
Furthermore, I've blown up engines of all types in my life. Mazdas, GMs, BMW, etc. **** happens.
M96 has it's issues, no doubt. Mezgers are better, no doubt.
But I disagree with your sentiment.
Our engines are a high performance product. They are at or approaching 20 years old. Many have been mistreated and or poorly maintained. There will be failures. Doesn't make the car a bad car. Mine failed(scoring). I had it fixed. I still love driving it...even more so now.
I hear Camry's run for a long time...
Sure we see these stories all the time. But it's not the majority, it's a small minority of total ownership. Typically involves an engine that is on its 3-5th owner of which the new owner has no idea as to its service or parts history nor bore conditions and something bad happens. We have all seen it over the past 2 years as many have exchanged hands without performing the necessary due diligence.
Then they decide to take it on the track with an old OEM Aos, bad oil, no additional oil in a deep sump, yadayada.
No different than a 993, 964, 911, or LS3. While each have their own quirks, those quirks are real, and you gotta solve for them.
What everyone has read from the BaT auction listing is correct. Demann did the work, but it was the seller that was problematic. It's a classic situation that I thought I could work through. All the problems that the PO had were passed along to me, but it sure didn't look that way on the internet. It was so bad that BaT refunded my fees. Incidentally the seller is on this site and sells things in the Marketplace.
Again, it took months to work out the title problems. Then coil packs. The BaT add said it had a new clutch. It did not. So it's been two years of nothing but work and $. I'm hoping to find someone who sees value in the car and is ready for the rebuild. The chassis and bits that hang off the engine have been refreshed.
Best,
Sucks to hear about your situation, but glad it mostly got sorted out. That's definitely the thing about BAT...., something suspect can come across looking like a great deal or something being advertised better than it actually is (see BAT Targa that blew up on the new owners drive home). Unfortunately I wouldn't have given any consideration to the one you purchased considering the others that were out there for a similar price point that could have instilled more confidence as a buyer.
The only way to get the "good" out of a car is to drive it and enjoy the ride !! That's is what they are made for...
Buying a Porsche is not a rational decision, and should only be financially valued by hindsight, which is 20/20 . Then you can calculate the cost/smiles/miles to see how you fared.
The old saying that "you make your money when buying and realize it when you sell" doesn't apply if you NEVER sell. That means you will never realize (or care) whether you lost money or made money on the purchase. All that will have mattered is that you have enjoyed the ownership.
If you sell now, you will obviously have a "bad" experience to look back on. IF you bought at market value then had something bad happen, then sell at market value, you will have obviously lost $. ( unless you get more than market value which put the next owner in that situation), right now it is on you.
I can't say I blame you for wanting to bail, I don't know your feelings or finances, but IMO the only "good" way out is to "drive it out" , what ever that takes...
I bought mine from a friend who had the pics and bills from when he replaced a bunch of things, including the IMSB.
As it turned out, I realized fairly soon after that the additional noise I was hearing wasn't normal. I had the hardtop on when I first got it, didn't drive it much in the winter, and then went right into lockdown in early 2020. When I did start driving it though, it didn't take long to realize that as good as everything else was I very likely had a severe case of scoring. That was confirmed by scoping. Hunter (Mississauga, ON) didn't even charge for the scoping - "you've got bigger bills ahead".
My SO and I went through all the analysis - what I already spent, what the car was worth, what the costs would be. Overriding all that was the original plan - to buy a 997 Coupe. I bought the 996 because it became available at a decent price, and I had never had a convertible. I was originally going to keep the cab for a few years, then get the 997 coupe when I was ready to spend a bit more. With that in mind, did I really want to put a ton of money into a 996 Cab then sell it?
Ultimately we decided that the financial decision shouldn't be based on what we had already spent, but about how much it would cost to keep it vs sell it and buy another.
Selling a roller (...and a cab) and adding more cash to buy a 997 with a history I knew even less about left us with more uncertainty than properly fixing the car I already had. I like the cab way more than I expected, especially having the hard top. (the only thing I don't like is visual - the line of the hard top as it come down to met the car at the c-pillar. The pillar is too wide, visually).
Brakes, clutch, water pump, alternator and tires had been recently done when I got it, and brand new tires months before I got it. I did the starter (hot start problem), oil filer tube (yes, I broke it myself) and some small things like hood struts. The interior is spotless. Now I've overpaid for a 996 with the engine rebuild, but I've essentially got a car with 85k miles and a new (and vastly improved) engine. Since getting the engine back, I've started refreshing the suspension. All these items were in my original plan of just having a car I could maintain myself.
Will I get it all back? Not any time soon and not likely ever. As I enjoy it and drive it though, that becomes less relevant because it wasn't an investment to begin with. Although a different car will be further in the future, when I determine what I'm buying next the financial considerations will be based on the market value of the car and what I need for the next one, not what I've spent on this one.
In the meantime, I can enjoy driving it and that's what it's all about.
Maybe soon I'll be able to get out of the damn house.
Skip is right. You don't buy a 996 or any 911 because it's a good financial decision. You buy it because you want a 911. But it will cost you in time and money keeping it running.
Hey, I bought my 2002 996 in 2002. I not only enjoyed it during the standard depreciation period of all 911's. I am also enjoying it as it goes up in value. Along the way I have spent as much on servicing the car and part replacement as my purchase price, and will do the same again over the next 20 years to keep it running in top form.
Why? Because I love the car and can't imagine not having it.
Will I ever get my money back, maybe in 20 more years, maybe not. But the fun I have had with the car on and off the track is worth more than I have spent so far.
At the track, my buddies and I like to joke around that we don't have girlfriends, gambling or drug problems. But we do have a vice, and it's the 996. A much easier vice to control costs that the alternative. Not to mention, less headaches.
As a side note, our wives prefer the 996 over the alternatives as well. Just saying...
My guess is that the experience has soured you to the point where you probably will never fully trust the car again. It's time to sell.
Not to pile on, but my axion #1 for used car buying is if you haven't put your eyes on it (and ears!) do not purchase. A paper trail is great, but means little. It tells what has been done, not what needs to be done. I violated this ironclad rule one time out of 7 Porsche purchases - and $10,000 engine drop later I still enjoy it, but wonder what's next....... Caveat Emptor
This is one of the reasons 996’s prices are rising. Owners are in them for a lot and to cash out they also need a lot. These engine rebuilds are bringing up the prices which is something I like to see. I don’t like the idea of an entry level 911 being the same cost as a Boxster then the owner not having the money to maintain it. This has been the issue with the 996 for a long time in the used market but all this is changing now. Gotta pay fo play. Pay upfront or pay later and if you are unlucky pay both times. There should never be any such thing as a cheap 911.
The Porsche dealer in Nashville has offered really excellent service. I met with the service manager and he spent time with me and answered all my questions. They have 5 or 6 gold standard mechanics there and a few more that are not gold.
They suggested a short block. While I'm not willing to pay their labor it is a really good option for me. Talking with parts about getting one ordered. There are some really good threads here about guys putting in short blocks. It gets me over having to completely rebuild the entire engine which is something I don't want to do. I've got a 73 Mercedes V8 apart in my garage now. Putting in pistons and building outward so it's not like I'm not able. The M96 just seems like a complicated engine. It gets me running with a solid engine with out costing a fortune.
As my wife always says about the car, "Maybe you'll be able to drive it someday."
Honestly the sb is probably the best solution finacially for this situation. It will also help with resell in the future as most trust porsche more then a car owner or unknown shop for a rebuild. Send the heads to Hoffman, get a gasket kit and u will be driving by spring.
Good luck.
A quick TCO analysis of ANY 911 is roughly double the acquisition cost when new. A base 2022 911 for $100k will cost an additional $100k to drive it over the long term. This is what I wish people would think about more often before they buy a 996, let alone other 911 models.
And every 911 model has had some serious or expensive potential issue. Air-cooled engines need to be rebuilt too. The 996 engine might be the one people would shy away from the most, but that�s also the reason why the acquisition cost is lower than any other 911. You save $10k-$20k at the beginning and might not have an issue. But if you do, you still have a 911 for $50-$60k. Not $100k-$200k like the better 911 models. Not bad.
OP: you can spend $12k or $24k or $35k or $60k on an engine rebuild. If you have the time and skill, take your time and get educated on the M96 engine by learning from the engine experts, and you can do this. Or buy the short block and assemble it yourself. I�d venture to say that the short block might be the easiest part of the engine rebuild? Meaning that assembling an engine from a short block isn�t that much simpler than doing the whole thing. Something to consider.
I have acquaintances that have dropped $100k into their Corvette/Supra/NSX/Mustang after they bought their car. There is no shortage of dollars available to spend on cars. We are talking five figures, not six, so it could always be worse.
Ive never heard many complaints of the Mezger engine designs. About the only thing Ive heard of is the coolant tubes popping out, but that is a non damaging failure that is easily fixed.
A carefully constructed RL search might show a list of potential pitfalls for any Porsche made from 1965-2022.
But here�s just one example:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gine-warranty/
Hang out in the turbo and gt3 forums. There r issues but since there r a ton more m96/97 motors out there the numbers r gonna be screwed.
What i see as the biggest issues with watercooled mezgers is they need head work early in life.
Bottom line is porsche should have put the gt3 motor in every 996 and i have proved its possible to do so.
Ive been hanging out there for 15 years and dont see many engine failures, damn near any at all. I always thought that Porsche could have saved money with the GT3 motor in the n/a 996s. All they had to do was de-tune it some to say say 300 hp and they would have had a winner.
you already know the Mezger engine has very few faults: coolant tubes, slave on the turbo models (not engine though).
the statement that every engine has expensive potential problems is not true of the Mezger and very true for the M96.
and yes Porsche could have saved hassles by using GT1 engine like they did on the 993s. Could you imagine how many 996s would be tearing around and people would put big money into modding instead of just keeping running.
Water pumps are a known issue. The early version of the pump impellers tend to come apart.
I had to have valve guides replaced on my heads at 142K miles. Bottom end still doing fine. The Mezgers generally do not grenade.
Glad Eurocarguy is going to fix his car.
And fewer people would be able to afford a 996 with a Mezger. It's just a more expensive engine for one thing. And if you want the extra horsepower you will need to pay for it with better brakes, cooling, clutch, transaxle... It's really a whole new package and it starts to add up.
As flawed as the 996 Carrera engine was, it paved the way for a much better engine for the second generation 991. Most 996s have had those issues sorted out by now, it's not all bad.
Lastly, what is, "early in life?"
We spend too much time comparing and wishing that the mezger was in every Porsche. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
It wasn't in the plan. A carerra isn't a GT3, Turbo or a GT2. It's a Carerra. Because of this, a "throw away" engine was in the plan for the Carerra. An engine that could be exchanged for $7,500 with a factory replacement. Plan was solid. I had no fear in the early days of ownership knowing that worst case scenario, I could cheaply replace the engine and get back to business. But I took care of my engine and never needed a replacement. As we all know, that program has slowly faded and costs have risen for the factory replacement program.
But this program was so damn good, that Porsche still does it today with the newer models. If you blow a 991 RS engine, no-one will rebuild it, they just ship it back to the factory and replace it with another one for a cost that is less than a rebuild.
Haven't checked on the 992, but I suspect it's the same.
I will tell you after 20 years of ownership and 14 years of tracking the car, I never woke up in the morning upset that I didn't have a mezger. Didn't care and still don't. The reality is that the 3.6 mezger can't give me the performance I want in my car without incurring huge rebuild costs that dwarf M96 rebuild costs. What's interesting is that a M96 rebuild can safely get you to over 420 HP and address the issues we all discuss.
But it's tough to argue with a simple point, a 996 GT3 will always be worth more than a 996 Carrera. And a 996 Turbo will always be worth more than a C4S because they are unique and scarce.
But I would rather have an M96 rebuilt over a mezger. Call me silly.
Stop comparing the 996 engine to one of the best engines ever made by Porsche. So dumb.
If I wanted a Mezger I would buy one. Oh wait, I did, then I sold it and bought a 996 3.4
Wonder why I would have done such a thing? GT3 cars on the street are boring. Wind them out and have a little fun and risk losing your license real quick.
I own factory built race cars so I don't take my street cars on the track. This basically leaves the GT3 car as a posturing car for me. Look what I own.
With that said, if and when I sell the race cars, and sell off all my other fun cars. It's a GT2 RS for me.
For now I'll keep enjoying my 3.4's.
Silly
the heads/valves were done on my car at 40k. Thats about all the maintenace i know about because the donor switched hands a few times before i gutted it.
I certainly get it. In 2002 when I bought my Carerra, the GT3 wasnt available. Didn't want the Turbo, while it was an incredibly phenomenal car, it was heavy and suffered from understeer on the track as a byproduct of AWD. Sure the suspension could be reworked, but it was still heavy.
Only choice at the time was the C2. Glad I did, and still not bored with it because there is always something you can do to enhance and improve it.
I agree. I drove a GT3 on the track, but was limited by the car in front. I couldn�t help thinking that I extracted about 5/10th of the car�s potential. So sad. Then again, I�m glad this was the case, or I�d probably have fallen in love with it. And have to have it.
Hah! I knew you would say something. There is always and exception to everything, and if I had DeJeepers mechanical skills, and my M96 engine was blown and I came across a GT3 engine, I would certainly put it in my Carerra. I tip my hat to you.
I went to my local dealer, Porsche of Nashville, and bought a crate short block yesterday. They have provided excellent service and customer care. Lots of support.
I think for me the crate short block is the best option. There are lots of parts included which makes it a real value. Chains, chain guides, someone who knows what they are doing that has assembled the block and looked at the crank, there's so much more. Initially I did not consider it because of the lack of upgrades. I've looked at all the options and I don't have the funding for all the upgrades, nor the skill and time to do it myself.
I'm sure there will be lots of naysayers complaining about the defects in the stock engine, but hey it's an internet forum right? I'm pretty confident I can keep this thing running for a long time. There are a lot of examples on this forum of folks that take care of their M96's and they have had great results. We know oil is important as well as fuel delivery. They are fussy cars, but with care it seems they can do well.
let's see where this takes me. Thanks for listening and sharing the experience.
Best,
@Eurocarguy911
congrats on deciding to keep the car and planning a way forward. I think you’ll be happy with the end result. When it’s up and running you’ll be starting over with a clean slate. Keep up with frequent oil changes, regular maintenance, etc., and you’ll have many happy miles. 👍😁
I think this is the best (money wise for you) decision you could make.
May we ask what the shortblock is going for now. I remember way back in time the charged 7Kish with a core exchange but that was years ago.
Good to hear. With what you now know regarding preventative medicine, you will have an engine that will live a long life. And a lot of fun. Looking forward to hearing about the process and outcome. Congrats!
The dealer was very competitive and were very willing to work with me. It wasn't an internet price like you might find on Sunset Porsche, but it was off of list. The core price is $3700 just the internet companies. The part manager said he couldn't match price, but would work with me.
You get what you pay for. The service manager said that if I had questions they would be willing to help because I bought it from them. It is pretty unusual to make friends with the parts and service manager at a dealership. I never got that from Mercedes.
I left the dealership smiling which is a pretty good trick.
First - I've always declined to talk about cost, not because it's personal but because the variables are infinite. I will try to offer some meaningful points though.
I've followed a lot of what FSI are doing to the south, and Hartech across the pond. Shipping my car or my engine in either direction and paying exchange rates factored into my decision heavily.
Hunter was pretty backed up, and we talked about good and bad experiences they had had with different approaches. One of the factors was still the exchange rate on going south.
Hartech has only one shop authorized to use their process in North America, and that's Alpine Motorwerks in Calgary. I knew I wanted either LN or Hartech sleeves, and I liked that I could have have the entire process including machining and building done in one shop (and pay in one currency).
One of the benefits was no provincial sales tax in Alberta. The 8% I saved there paid for shipping from Toronto to Calgary, at least one way.
Back to why I haven't offered detailed costs (or a build thread): because if I list everything that was done, I expect a flood of "what about this" and "what were these measurements" and "how was that balanced"? It doesn't matter as much now, because I got it back in the spring of 2021 and I've driven for 9 months and it is fantastic.
RE & RE powertrain, disassemble and rebuild, all new chains, rails, tensioners and blades, Nikasil liners and machining, Mahle pistons, ARP connecting rod bolds, main bearings, rod bearings, crankcase bolts, oil jets, oil screen, IMS bearing and IMS support, machining for heads and deck, valve lapping and seals for the rebuild ( and of course all gaskets and seals and whatever other small parts I may have missed),
and then oil pump, IMS (not new, used but in shop inventory. Mine was damaged from a previous repair, like the oil pump, and there was evidence of chain failure as well, so I'm not sure who did previous repairs, or the extent of them), new AOS and oil cooler and of course spark plugs (coils were already new). New engine mounts and a flex disk (it's a C4), new serpentine belt, updated expansion tank cap, a hose and new block off plate and a couple of clips.
They did the break in and then fresh oil, they drove it for a couple of hundred km (and sent a nice picture), then shipped it home and I did the first real oil change at 1000km. It was about C$26k.
Although it took a little longer, their willingness to find and fix the things they found, like the damaged oil pump and IMS (looked like someone hammered the oil pump housing into place with a 12lb sledge with a piece debris stuck in it.) without additional charges was great.
Calgary was hard-hit by COVID and significant restrictions, so some of the delays were caused by that, some by other issues - but I sent it out during the winter so I wasn't too concerned about it.
Although Marc at Alpine is the only one in Canada authorized to do the Hartech machining in house, anyone could ship their cases to Hartech to have them done, so it's still available to anyone rebuilding, but at the cost of shipping to the UK. Alpine will do the same though, so a builder could send the engine or just cases to Alpine to get machined and sleeved. Most of the other places around the Toronto area are comfortable with LNE and that process, so there are certainly lots of great places to get an engine done without going as far as I did.
Crud on the oil pump
Damaged IMS
Scores!
Sleeves in
Thank you.
I put new injectors in it over the summer. Got about 100 miles out of it when cylinder #1 started leaking coolant. smokes like crazy.
So yes, I've done that. Plan on checking all four O2 sensors and replacing as necessary. Fuel trim should be about 1.0.
I don't think you're beating it to death. I appreciate the advice.
yes, I did the exact same thing nearly 4 years ago. For me it was the perfect choice. The car has run perfectly from the 1st time it cranked over, ever since except once last year when the crank position sensor failed. It was the only sensor I didn�t replace!
Some recommendations for your consideration, besides the other new parts you already have:
take lots of pictures of the disassembly process. Every time I removed a part I took a picture of the remaining assembly. I was amazed how often I referred to them during re-assembly.
Send the heads to Len Hoffman to get them crack checked and rebuilt
Install new fuel injectors
convert to spin-on oil filter, or disable the bypass valve in the factory filter canister
use DT40 oil and change every 6 months regardless of mileage
install new scavenge pump
Take your time and think every step in the process through before proceeding. Once you start, try to do something every day, even if it�s just checking parts, ordering something forgotten, or installing something small.
Good luck!
I've recently bought my 996.1 coupe with a view to planned rebuild, with the car running and OK on PPE., weighing up Hartech vs LN engineering, and the Hartech 3.7 vs LN 3.8. In Australia the cost of cars is high and the 996 is the entry point to a 911. For me it fulfilling a bucket list thing I've always had a BMW alternative - which is always a factory hotted up regular coupe/sedan. Then marriage and kids has meant Australian sedan cars that ceased manufacture in 2018. I've kept two of them as a patriot. I don't see any economic reason for a 996, it's an entry into 911 way cheaper than 993 or earlier. Air conditioning matters a lot in Australia, so water cooled wins on air con as well as horse power. The scarcity of 911s down under tends to make the decision to elective repair and fit larger Nikasil cylinders and preventative items - what a long list more logical. I hope this will be in the long run the researched way into 996 ownership over "rolling the dice". Naturally resale is not a thought at all, would plan to see time to and past retirement, and combustion engine bans with this one.
Yes. the price of the short block has kept me in the game. I'll be able to get it rebuild with everything for under $20K. That seems reasonable to me.
I knew it would eventually need to happen, but as stated I really thought I'd be able to drive to car while I got it sorted. It's been two years of headaches. I'm really hoping an engine rebuild will solve the problems.
the only thing that catches my attention is that you replaced the scavenge pump. The short block comes with a reman oil pump. Wouldn't they also reman the scavenge pump?
The plan is to the IMS solution which will include the spin on oil filter.
So Porsche did make an upgrade to the IMS bearing? I thought that one of the problems with a short block was that everything remained the same. I saw in another thread about the bigger bearing needs the case split to get out.
If this is the new and improved unit how long do they last? I'm guessing I can find a thread here somewhere. What would I look for?
That's cool because I just saved $1800.00. this project is getting cheaper all the time. Thx!
The scavenge pumps are located in the cylinder heads, so the do not come with a short block.
the large IMS bearings have proven very reliable, the common recommendation with the large IMS bearing is to remove the seal on the bearing so it can get splash. Lube by the engine oil rather than relying on the grease put in the bearing at the time of manufacture.
Good luck with your rebuild
I see that. they are part of the heads. I saw that on FCP as I'm making a list of parts, but didn't know where they go. Yes, absolutely. Makes perfect sense to replace.
A Porsche short block comes with all improvements Porsche made for that engine design at that time. So lots of improvements. Does it fix or address the engines that Raby, Skip, and others would fix? No. But still has improvements.
Yeah, you can put on the UAOS, UIDS and Oil cooling if/when you decide to ever track the car and you will be in good shape from a hydrolock, oil starvation and cooling standpoint. Don't remember what you have bolted on the car since you owned it, but you want to consider doing the UAOS as a just in case.
You know the routine, you still have to worry about bore scoring, so if you change your oil at least 2x a year, keep your fuel injectors, OXY and MAF sensors relatively new and use good fuel, you will in be in great shape for 20+ years.
By that time, Jake will have a 600 HP hybrid bio fuel powered engine that gets 1000 MPG and emits no carbons that you can replace your engine.
You are in good shape.
That's actually a very good point! Even though the new blocks still have the legacy coating on the cylinder walls, we have all the information needed to prevent bore scoring from happening. Could it happen - maybe but significantly less likely. You're basically getting a clean slate and now have the knowledge of what to do and not to do. Great to hear the OP found a viable solution and is getting it fixed.
I don't see myself ever doing serious tracking, but will probably end up doing it at least once as I'd like to see what the car can actually do.
I just put in a new AOS. The price of the UAOS was off putting. With FCP Euro's warranty it's not a big deal to replace it as needed. I did it in the car and while challenging not a huge deal. Honestly, I thought getting the intake manifolds out wasn't that difficult. Everyone talks about the last 10mm bolt at the front of the engine, but I thought working on GM cars is much harder.
I change my own oil in my entire fleet. Keeping the basic maintenance up this machine after the rebuild won't be that difficult. Agreed about keeping the fuel system fresh as well. I run Shell premium into all the time. Do that for my other cars as well. I also agree that with this fresh slate I can keep it running for another 20+ years.
yay!
Pretty sure the UAOS would pay dividends if/when the AOS fails. Just in terms of labor, let alone a broken piston. Some who replace their AOS have had to do it more than once.
Do we know what other improvements were made to the M96?
Sounds like the IMS issue is resolved. Scoring can be prevented with oil changes. What else did I get? thx
Been off RL for a few days and sorry to come back and read this thread. You bought yours a few months before I bought mine with me doing some of the same work you did and benefiting from your posts, most recently on the size of QuickJack to choose. FWIW, in your situation, getting a new short block is exactly what I would do and you've got much invested in parts that easily carry over. You'll know it's new and get to treat it like it should have been treated from the start. I didn't notice if you are doing the work yourself, but hope so, and you start a new thread (hoping I never need to use it though
).
Btw, I read somewhere that Porsche doesn't reuse the core, they just scrap them. There is no more valuable part of our car than the crankshaft. if your crank is still good you might want to ask if they need it back or even find another worthless one and return that instead. Maybe Porschetech3, or someone else who knows dealers can chime in on this.
Oh, and the BAT seller, he knew what he was doing. Had the car just 9 months, runs DE classes, puts just a clutch disk in but calls it new, title issues, etc, etc. Glad BAT refunded their fee, but they should block this seller. I've pretty much eliminated buying through an auction site as I hear too much of this crap lately.
If you LOVE the car, the decision is easy. Get in line.
If you don't love it, it is really easy to choose a lesser direction of a used engine, or a cheap rebuild. Usually doing this sinks people further into the car, and leads to more issues that seem to never end.
Trying to "save money" usually wastes money with these engines. Do it right, or do it twice.
My record so far is the same person buying 4 engines before he finally gave up. He would never buy from me, but he damn sure asked me questions about what he should do. He never listened.
Good to hear from you DSC!
Yes, we have shared a few experiences. i wish mine were more fun. Agreed that given a fresh start I should be able to keep this engine running for many years to come. Especially with the upgrades from Porsche. Keep changing the oil, and I would expect at some point I'll swap out injectors and sensors again. Maybe every 10 years? We know what the short comings are and how to solve them.
Yes, I'm doing the work with a buddy and myself. At this time we have a 73 Mercedes 4.5L V8 in pieces in my garage. it's getting pistons, rings, etc.. It will be a bit crazy to have three engines in pieces in the garage. I'll have to post pix when that happens. Hopefully by the end of the summer I'll have it going again.
the dealer told me to keep the crate as the core must be returned in it. I guess these engines are rebuilt in some part of the factory? other than that they didn't say anything else. I'll see what else they need when I pick it up.
BaT is a great place to buy a car, but not a great place to buy a car. All the kids were doing it so I thought I could too. Be advised.
Yay! All the best,
People can't wait to be ripped off it seems.. One buying format is no better than another.
No matter the venue the buyer must be discerning, and the car has to prove its self through an invasive inspection.
No one who has had this done, and followed my directives has been taken advantage of. It seems like an un- necessary bit of action that is a pain in the neck, but it keeps people honest.
One person who contacted me is now on his 7th 997.1 that he has considered buying. All 7 have had glaring issues that were found by different shops in less than a couple of hours. One of the engines had mismatched cylinder heads, others had bore scoring.
These cars must be treated like they are guilty, and must be proven innocent. If not, in most cases the buyer won't be the winner of the auction/ sale. That's for sure.
Values being up is driving this more than ever, cars are being fixed up and flipped. People are slapping lipstick on the pig and putting it up for the highest bidder on all the sites. Now more than ever, buying a car from someone who has earned a reputation, and has something to lose is important.
Well I can't say I'm excited about this purchase, but it is the experiment I'm conducting at this point in my life. I picked up the short block from the dealer yesterday and brought it home. The next phase is getting the engine and transmission out of the chassis, and then starting the transfer of parts. Look for a new thread to discuss what I find out about the short block. It did come with a water pump and oil pump. Chains, guides, and all three chain tensioners were included. I'm really happy that I won't have to split the case and deal with pistons. More to follow . . . .
that's an engine from a Mercedes-Benz 450SLC. 4.5 L V8 with a cast iron block. Pretty straight forward, but its really heavy. I'm glad I'm not putting pistons in the flat 6. One of selling points for me with the crate engine.
Congrats, that block is a thing of beauty. Is the inventory of 3.4 blocks aplenty? Or should I order one now for any future needs cause it will go NLA soon?
Mine is a 3.6, but I would assume is the same for the 3.4. There were three in Pennsylvania and it took two weeks to get.
There are folks on here that have bought the short block to have in stock. You're gonna need it sooner or later. In 2018 the 3.6 short block was about $8k. I picked mine up for about $10K.
there is also conversation that Porsche is going to drop the short blocks for the M96's. That could happen at any time, but i also felt lucky that I was able to get one. This option will eventually go away.
Hey there! I noticed you mentioned looking for rollers. I've just put one up for sale...
https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1380945
Let me know if you have any questions, etc.
-J
