Oil Filter with particles in it

So I changed my 99 cab's oil recently (mobile 1 - don't judge or comment please) and just cut open the filter for a look. Good news is there are no metalic bits in it, Bad news was that there a many brown/black? bits in it. I'm thinking chain guides. Car has 83K miles on it. Thoughts? On start up the car makes quite a rattle (always has). I should replace the engine, right?

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Looks like chain pad material which is very common wear items for 3.4. You need to remove the cam covers to gain access to replace them. What are the cam deviations? If it's rattling at start up, I would address them sooner rather than later before other damages (e.g., valves) are done.

Ditto. Grab a durametric and check your deviation numbers. How long was this oil change interval?

The interval was two years and 3.5K miles. Can someone point me to a good thread describing the process of replacing the chain pads? Does it require dropping the engine? TIA

Yes, it will require dropping the engine and trans, and once it is out, you will need to remove the valve covers to change the rails. I would start reading the pelican How-To's. They are well written and it is what i referenced the most when I removed and disassembled the engine. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/996_tech.htm

I found this.. "Here's a good diagram that shows all the pads and tensioners: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ner/Gp1800.pdf various levels of work to replace the various components; tensioners can be done with engine in the car, variocam pads can be done by pulling cam covers, ims pads require complete disassembly. the actual replacement items are not that expensive (lne make a billet replacement for one of them); all the cost is in the labour, and I would suggest to really vet your shop before you let them too far into your engine. the variocam pads have been updated by porshe to a harder material, are not *that* much work to get at (well, I was quoted 12 hours) and are probably the cause of your deviation bumping into the +/-6 limits."

Had the same issue and this is what my worn pads looked like after 100k miles. Ended up dropping the motor and splitting the case in half and removed the side with Cylinders 4-6 to get to the IMS chain paddle. $60 worth of plastic parts to fix the particles issue and about $800 worth on seals, O-rings, Cylinder head bolts Etc.. Oh and new lifters (INA ones) which I replaced since I was already inside the motor and had 4 cushiony ones. Chewed up IMS chain paddle pad and VarioCam tensioner pads . New Pads Vs Old pads. Collateral damage on Cylinder 1-3 Chain rail guard (tensioner side).

I would say that is chain rain material for sure.

IMS tensioner paddle wear pad debris.

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Which unfortunately means splitting the case is required then

I take it that the IMS tensioner paddle is black material and the other paddles are brown material. The particles in question do seem to be on the black side (IMS) to me as well. Unfortunately I don't have access to a facility where I could do this work myself so I guess I'll be looking for a good shop in the SF Bay Area to do the work. Per Device2, it seems to make sense to do an engine "refresh" at the same time.

Could someone tell me, how many hours are required to split the case and replace these paddles, guides, and tensioners? Other than gaskets, can I get away without spending a load on parts? My engine had a small amount of black plastic debris in the filter and I am wondering if I should split the engine right away, if it can wait, if so, how long? Should I just keep an eye on an increase in debris, or should I get on this ASAP? My engine runs flawlessly, has no strange noises (after I replaced the rattling IMS bearing), but this plastic debris is in the back of my mind. Many thanks!

you replaced a rattling IMS? That's not good for the overall health of your motor. debris is in there now and slowly eating away at your motor... it took me a couple of hours to strip the motor down to the bearing case. I figure if I had a second set of hands to help, i could remove the engine from the car and disassemble it in about 12 hours.

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Keep us posted!

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Here we go.. What product was used for the IMS Retrofit?

you will need a durametric to check timing and deviation to know how urgent this repair is. but since you replaced an already failed IMS, my opinion is you're on borrowed time.

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I think I need to hire you! The clock is ticking on this one..... "oh, but the pieces of debris were small". Yeah, so they'll suspend in the oil and destroy every internally lubricated part in the engine. Its mechanical Russian Roulette.

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LOL. well Jake....if you're expanding in Canada - give me a shout. haha

Pardon me for not being as savy as all you bunch, you guys have the knowledge, clearly, I am simply asking and providing the best information that I can. I had a mechanical engineer look at the IMS bearing, we pried off the seal and there was a small amount of wear in the bearing, it was filled with engine oil. I installed a pelican IMS bearing update just trying to stay ahead of issues with my engine. Pardon my complete and total lack of 996 mastery. I had no clue what a small tick/rattle was in my engine, when I dropped my sump plate and looking in my oil, I couldn't find any evidence of metal shavings, just the few tiny shreds of plastic. I'm not used to these engines, and I've never had one of these cars before, I'm just trying to have a bit of driving fun and apply my DIY skills as best as I can. So what you're saying is that my engine is finished? I don't fully get what everyone is hinting at...

That small debris inside the bearing was being washed out, as engine oil entered the bearing. This is known as Stage 3 IMSB failure, the point where the seal has failed enough to let wear debris out into the oil supply, as well as letting oil into the bearing. The bearing is supposed to be filled with grease, not oil. That said "Mechanical Engineers" created the IMS Bearing problem, and haven't created any solutions for it to date.. Slit your wrist... dump in some Mercury and put a band aid on the wound. Thats whats been done to this engine.

no, your engine isn't finished. yet. none of us have a good idea of how much metal, what size, etc is floating around in the engine. we can guess that there is SOME as you said you replaced a faulty bearing. but that's just it - were guessing. some are making a very educated guess though. I had scored cylinders and while my motor was "healthy" in the sense that there was no CEL, and that it pulled hard, because I was shaving cylinder walls/piston skirt, that there was some metal going around where it shouldn't. I decided to park it and tear it down before I caused further damage. my suggestion is you do the same.

So what you are saying is that the engine is no longer usable? I'm confused why there is so much 'out there' about replacing a compromised IMS bearing and just continuing with life? I'm simply asking, I'm trying to learn, not to imply doubt in what you are saying. So the engine is not rebuild-able either because everything is totally going to be ground down and worn out now, or if not now, will be very soon?

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Ok, thank-you, this post was helpful.

my engine was re usable but that was after disassembly and a thorough cleaning at the machine shop, and using new rod and crankshaft bearings. IF you're going to keep driving it then I would do frequent oil changes and get the oil tested to see how much metal is floating around in that oil....

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Actually - and I am going to get flack for this, but since I was in a similar situation and I invested a ton of $$$ into mine I will give you my opinion. I put a new bearing in after a failed bearing like you did. Car ran great but due to the risks I eventually got a $7500 refresh. Basically split the block, cleaned everything and put it back together and I put 30,000 miles after without an issue. Everything inside the motor looked perfect. That was a best case scenario. You may be able to do that now. So the question is how long do you have and the answer is no one knows. You may go for years and miles without and issue to you may already be wearing the liners and needs new liners. It is a cost benefit analysis no one can answer.

Yeah, who knows how long you got?!?! there's a car on here that has ran for years and over 10k km on scored cylinders. just adds oil. I'm not lucky with cars so I didn't want to push it.

Btw, this was my extracted bearing, no scoring, so I'm a bit perplexed. Maybe the rattle was exhaust or something else?

There are several schools of thought. One school says that any time anything foreign has entered the oil - even a smidgen, even once - your engine needs to come out, be disassembled, and have all eleventy-nine faulty parts replaced. Another school says you find a 996 and drive it, come hell or high water. A third school says you should buy a 996, and then park it and lose the keys. I'm a fan of School 2. Word to the wise: If you EVER want to be able to sell your 996, maybe you want to make absolutely certain about the source of the "rattling." In fact, if you want to pick a verb to NEVER use in any way to describe a 996 you might be interested in selling for more than six bucks, "rattle" would be on my top 3 list. Tell us more about the rattling, and how replacing what appears (at least visually) to be an intact bearing made it stop. Also, now that PeaCar's bearing is sitting there all sexy like and not completely disintegrated and spread throughout the engine like Magic Johnson's genetic fingerprint throughout states with NBA teams, maybe we can throttle back on the imminent destruction talk...

Back to post #12, which was the start of this. A. Is it required to split the case to replace the valve train guide wear components in the engine? (my understanding is that no, the wear components, guides, rails can be replaced without complete tear down) B. If splitting not required, what shop time would be good to replace said plastic wear components by a 996/Boxster knowledgeable wrench? C. If splitting IS required, same as B? I don't know from 'stages' what level of bearing destruction has occurred, but it looks pretty decent to me. If there's been some metal floating around, that is of course not good, but is the engine a complete write off/do over based on the plastic bits in the sump? It would appear with limited info that this can be saved for many more miles by repl the guides and rails, and maybe a chain or 2.

FYI - this was my bearing - and car was running perfect - no rattles mail.jpg IMG_0919.jpg

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What is that sludge stuff?

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There seems to be a correlation between companies that have a financial interest in failing engines and what they have to say about oil debris, it's just an observation I have noticed. I've also seen more threads where engine death was experienced despite zero warnings, than I've seen tons of clues and the engine went bang. I'm becoming scared to even look at this car, let alone drive it. I have a split mind between seeing this car as one of the worst cars on the road and one of the best. Like how do all you deal with this stuff? I have an aircooled 911 and I just change the oil, do the odd valve adjust, and drive it. Sure, it leaks oil, only for the past 25 years...

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I do whatever maintenance I think is in the best interests of the car within reason - and I drive the hell out of it. I put a solid 5 hours and several hundred miles on the car yesterday. I will continue to use this technique as long as I have a Porsche. I bought this car because I wanted to own it and I wanted to drive it. Both of those conditions are still true, so I will keep it and keep driving it. The benefit I enjoy from owning a 996 is the pleasure I derive from driving it. If concerns/worries about the car prevented me from being able to enjoy it properly, I would get rid of it and buy a car that worried me less. I just don't see the point in keeping a car if it causes you distress, especially a "toy" like a 911. There is no rationale for keeping a pleasure/hobby/enthusiast car like the 996 if it causes you anxiety...

That would be fine metal particles mixed with oil from the bearing starting to fail. Those are the metal bits people talk about that cause all of the future engine damage. And people find in their filter. And magnetic drain plug. I initially did not take the engine apart and just changed the oil - a lot. After several thousand miles I was starting to get more and more metal. Hence the refresh.

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Yikes! Ok, I had none of that. The bearing was clean and moved freely. Hmmmm To spend $10k or to not...

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How do you deal with it? A big wallet or sell it. I'm in the process of selling mine as we speak. Most fantastic piece of machinery I have ever owned. Love every second of it. BUT, I am constantly stressed about what "could" go wrong. Every time I came on this forum there is a new thread about an engine going boom. I'm not a rich man and can't afford a $25k engine. Hence it's up for sale. I'm gutted and torn but I can't deal with the uncertainty, it takes away from the ultimate pleasure. If my finances were better I wouldn't care.

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Here's what I did. Install the LN full flow filter, so there is no oil bypassing the filter element. Everything is captured. Install the mag drain pickup to catch anything from the sump return. Oil changes at 3000 miles. Blackstone oil analysis. Inspect the filter each change. (as you did)

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Once you're neck deep in it, drop the sump and clean any debris from there as well. Lots of oil flushes and add a magnetic drain plug too along with these other recommendations. You'll need all the help you can get. This isn't fear-mongering. Debris in the oil will take out rod and main bearings and anything else the engine oil is contact with. This is fact, not fiction. I've seen replacement bearings and other engine components fail when someone makes the wrong decision to retrofit an engine that shouldn't be saved. Unfortunately, it's usually the next owner of the car that suffers this burden. Had one local PCA member new to the Porsche community have his 2006 C4S suffer an IMS failure and cylinder scoring, needing a rebuild. He's barely had time to enjoy the car and the dealer gave him an estimate for $65k for a new engine when he purchased the car for $37,500.

The bearings don't rattle, it's chains from the paddles that do. If your IMS bearing actually rattled on startup you'd be having a bad day. That said, I have a very brief (as in, fraction of a second) noise on startup. The new chain tensioners have taken it down significantly, but it's still there on a cold (2-3+ days) startup. I am toying with replacing the paddles.

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Yup, did that too. always a good plan, when the OP has found some debris already. There's more that didn't come out. Just get it cleaned. Now, what about repl all the wear plastics in the valve drive train?

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IMHO, that short cold start rattle after sitting overnight is normal. Don't change the paddles unless you're seeing a lot of plastic in your oil and the rattle doesn't go away with warm start...

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This makes sense, but there's a lot of talk that says any rattle, or a flake of plastic and the engine is basically needing a serious refresh at the very least.

There are no "normal noises" from an engine. Any noise must be explored. Doing this saves thousands of dollars. Noises at start up can be lazy chain tensioners that are failing, or this can mean the oil needs to be changed, as it has lost viscosity allowing the tensioners to bleed down. It can also mean the oil filter is creating a restriction in the system, or that you have worn rod bearings. Post a video of the start up noise and I'll check it out. That said, if that debris pictured earlier in the thread is hard to the touch, it is NOT silicone sealant. It has the proper color for me to be concerned. Also, if someone used silicone sealant that color with an M96 engine you have bigger problem, as they are a Chevy mechanic that should not have been there, and I'd be very concerned about that!